Post 996

Because anti-wolf forces were unable to dominate the delisting discussion at any of the regular public hearings around the West, a special hearing at Cody was asked for by Wyoming officials. They kept the date a secret for a long time, but it’s announced — April 19.

If a big majority doesn’t savage the wolf in Cody, where can they win except among the corrupt state and Department of Interior politicians trading favors back and forth?

This is your chance in Wyoming to get up from under their boot and tell them what you think. I know there are a lot of good conservationists in the Cody area, so show up and exercise your right of free speech.

– – – –

Here is an alert on the hearing from WOC, the Wyoming Outdoor Council.

On Thursday, April 19, 2007 the US Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) is hosting a public hearing in Cody, Wyo. on a proposal to begin delisting the gray wolf in the Northern Rockies. Please consider joining us at the meeting. Wyoming’s wolves need public support..

The Wyoming Outdoor Council agrees with many that it is time for the gray wolf to be delisted. However, the proposal under consideration will not ensure sustainable wolf populations into the future. The USFWS is considering accepting Wyoming’s dual-status management plan, which calls for trophy game management of wolves in a designated area in northwestern Wyoming and predator status for the animals elsewhere. Predators can be shot on sight. Furthermore, Wyoming’s plan proposes reducing the state’s wolf population to 100 individuals. Such management does not protect wolves, therefore, we do not support delisting under these conditions.

We encourage you to attend the public meeting and speak up in support of wolves. If you cannot attend the meeting, please consider writing a letter to the USFWS.

What: USFWS Public Hearing on gray wolves

When:
April 19, 2007

Open house from 3 – 5 pm
Public hearing 6 – 8 pm

Where: Cody Auditorium, 1240 Beck Avenue, Cody, WY 82414.

For more information contact:
Meredith Taylor, metaylor@wyoming.com

If you are interested in carpooling from Lander, contact Andy Blair andy@wyomingoutdoorcouncil.org or 307-332-7031 ext 13.

What’s at stake:
The Wyoming Outdoor Council would like to see wolves delisted from the Endangered Species List; however, we do not believe this should occur until the USFWS and Wyoming agree to a management plan that allows for a sustainable wolf population. Unfortunately, Wyoming’s dual-status wolf plan does not do that. Governor Freudenthal proposes to limit Wyoming’s gray wolf population to 100 individuals or 15 packs and, in the future, to manage for the minimum number of wolves. Under this proposal, wolves could be shot on site as predators in much of the state, except in a defined area around Greater Yellowstone where they would be managed as trophy game.

The Wyoming Outdoor Council supports trophy game status for wolves throughout Wyoming. Revenues from the sale of licenses could be used to support wolf management, and wolves could still be killed if they attack livestock.

What you can do:
• Attend the federal hearing to show your support for wolves. Your voice will be important in ensuring proper wolf management.

If you cannot attend the hearing or do not want to testify, please consider submitting written comments. Written comments will be accepted at the public meeting or can be sent by mail before May 9, 2007 to:

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Wolf Delisting
585 Shepard Way
Helena, MT 59601

Email: NRMGrayWolf@fws.gov

Wolf Facts

1. Wolves are not decimating Wyoming’s elk population.

The state of Wyoming manages for a reduction in Wyoming’s elk population in all the herds around Greater Yellowstone. In fact, the recent Bison and Elk EIS calls for further reduction of elk on the National Elk Refuge. The Wyoming elk population is currently estimated at 91,555 elk – 8,910 more elk than the state’s population objective. Source: Lauren M. Whaley, “State Elk 9,000 Beyond Objective,” Jackson Hole Daily News, April 7, 2006
http://www.jacksonholenet.com/news/jackson_hole_news_article.php?ArticleNum=1405 .

2.Wolves are not destroying Wyoming’s tourism industry.
According to Dr. John Duffield, wolf watching now contributes at least $34 million annually for a multiplier effect of $85 million a year to Yellowstone’s satellite communities. Total spending on Wyoming tourism, tourism revenues, and the number of people employed in the industry have all increased every year since 1997 (by 5.8 percent, 5.5 percent, and 1.5 percent each year respectively).
Source: Wyoming Business Council, Wyoming Travel Industry 2005 Impact Report at 2, http://www.wyomingbusiness.org/pdf/tourism/Impact_2005_Final.pdf.)

3. Wolves are not devastating Wyoming’s livestock industry.
In 2005, wolves killed a total of 54 cattle and 27 sheep in entire state of Wyoming. For this depredation, 41 wolves were killed.
Source: U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Rocky Mountain Wolf Recovery 2005 Interagency Annual Report http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf

Only 2 percent of sheep mortality statewide is attributable to wolves. More sheep die from poisoning (5.5 percent), eagles (3.3 percent), lambing (13.9 percent), weather (17.8 percent), disease (8.2 percent), and other predators (45.1 percent).
Source: USDA National Agricultural Statistics Service, http://www.nass.usda.gov/wy

Talking Points To Consider
• USFWS should not delist wolves under Wyoming’s dual-status wolf plan as long as there is an intent to manage them at the bare minimum required to keep them off the endangered species list.

• Wolf delisting should not take place until Wyoming has a biologically acceptable management plan that does not rely on its neighboring states to make up the difference in wolf numbers.

• Wolves should remain protected until they are returned to a significant portion of their historic range where they are biologically viable.

• Wolves could be delisted as trophy game status statewide. Such management could include a way to compensate livestock producers in a timely and effective manner while providing quick response times to deal with problem wolves.

Additional Background Information
Although the US Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) recently rejected Wyoming’s dual status wolf management plan, USFWS is now moving ahead to remove the wolf from the endangered species list in the Northern Rocky Mountains. In this reversal of position, USFWS will now accept “dual classification” outside of the National Parks where wolves may be managed as a trophy game species in certain areas and designated predatory animals elsewhere. In addition, the state has requested funds for aerial gunning to “control” wolves.

Wyoming Outdoor Council agrees with the USFWS that Wyoming should not kill a protected species (wolves) that is preying on a wildlife species that is not endangered (elk), but does not agree that Wyoming wolves may be separated off as a distinct population from Montana and Idaho within Greater Yellowstone ecosystem.

The Wyoming Game & Fish Department has greatly misrepresented the threat that wolves are killing excessive numbers of moose and elk. These herds are not being “decimated” by wolves as some claim. In fact, Wyoming’s elk population is above objective despite a decade of late season cow/calf hunts to reduce herd numbers from Jackson to Dubois and Cody. Wolves are definitely an important part of re-establishing the predator/prey balance. But the truth is that the reduced elk calf: cow ratio in Cody-area elk in recent years and the declining moose numbers in the Jackson area cannot be blamed on wolves alone, since those numbers have been going down since pre-wolf re-introduction.

Now the State of Wyoming has requested a court order requiring the federal government to approve the Wyoming management plan and to kill almost 200 wolves. Wyoming’s anti-wolf plan has delayed delisting and will continue to do so as long as the state continues its anti-predator lawsuit against the USFWS.

Tell the USFWS that they should NOT proceed with delisting until Wyoming develops a reasonable wolf plan to manage hunting the gray wolf as a trophy game animal statewide.

Wyoming Outdoor Council applauds the words of the Editorial Board of the Casper Star Tribune, which stated that, “If legislators value wildlife so highly, why haven’t they done more to protect them from the damage energy development inflicts on their habitat? Natural gas drilling is having a scientifically documented, significant impact on deer and sage grouse in parts of the state. Energy development is a much bigger threat to Wyoming’s wildlife than wolves are. If legislators value wildlife so highly, why have they been reluctant to put money into the Wildlife and Natural Resource Trust Fund? More funds would allow the state to complete more habitat improvement projects.”

Killing most of Wyoming’s wolves is unacceptable. It is this kind of approach that led to the wolf becoming a threatened species in the first place. Unfortunately, the USFWS asserts that it can move ahead with delisting in Idaho and Montana, even with Wyoming’s unapproved dual classification management plan. This action is premature and legally questionable. Wolf protection should not be removed until Wyoming has an adequate management plan that does not propose killing off its wolf population.

To find out more on this issue, please contact Meredith Taylor at metaylor@wyoming.com or 307-455-2161.

You can also read more about it at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service web site at: http://westerngraywolf.fws.gov

Meredith Taylor
Wildlife Program Director
Wyoming Outdoor Council
6360 Hwy 26
Dubois, WY 82513
307-455-2161
metaylor@wyoming.com

 
avatar
About The Author

Ralph Maughan

Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University with specialties in natural resource politics, public opinion, interest groups, political parties, voting and elections. Aside from academic publications, he is author or co-author of three hiking/backpacking guides, and he is President of the Western Watersheds Project.

56 Responses to Speak Out for Wyoming’s Wolves at Cody Hearing, April 19

  1. avatar Vicki says:

    Ralph,
    I am pretty new to the more technical end of wolf support. I’d love to drive up from Colorado to attend this hearing. Do they actually let non-residents attend? Would my, or anyone else’s presence be of any help if we are unable to speak? I have a group of about 8 who might drive up if it would.

  2. avatar Vicki says:

    I’m obviously not the most educated or eliquent person to post on here…. but I am good at recruiting supporters with in my own community. I usually stick to showing children what nature has to offer. I guess I beleieve they are the future of conservation. Maybe there won’t be much to conserve if I(we) don’t help out otherwise.

  3. Vicki,

    I’d say email Meredith Taylor for information.

    I’d also say that the USFWS had better let non-residents testfy.

  4. avatar JEFF E says:

    One thing many people do not realize or choose to ignore is that public comment means anyone that is a citizen of the United States. The wolf reintroduction was implemented on Americas public land not the individual states land. So what that means is Joe/Sally Anybody from any state or territory, has just as much say and right to attend and comment at this meeting as the citizen that may live right up the street. The meeting in Boise had several people from Oregon in the crowd and did comment.

  5. avatar Vicki says:

    Thanks Ralph. I will ldo that. I guess I am off to round up a few more angry voices and a hotel room!

  6. avatar Dan says:

    Vicki – Absolutely head up. Plan on getting a lot of “well, you Colorado hippy, if you want wolves, why don’t you decide to live with them.” To which I would reply, we’d love to, but since they are proposed to be listed as predators in Wyoming the chance of one actually making it to Colorado are slim to none. I think most of us would glady live with – and make concessions with certain lifestyle selections – if it meant wolves could be back here. 70 percent of Colorado want wolves back, and unless they are reintroduced the only way it will happen is if a breeding pair migrates down from Yellowstone. I’m debating going to the meeting as well.

  7. avatar renae says:

    First let me say that I wanted wolves in Wyoming. I couldnt wait till they were in my part of the state.When my dogs start howling because of coyotes yipping I run outside hoping it will be a wolf instead.I have a small cow herd some horses dogs and kids.Well Thanksgiving weekend 2 yrs ago I saw my very 1st wolf crossing the highway On south pass about 1/8 or less in front of us. It was black and HUGE!!! It looked as long as half of the highway. it was unbelievable how big it looked. This was only about 15 miles from my house and I wasnt worried about my cows kids horses dogs or anything.Since then I have been doing alot of researching on wolves online in books, and In real life in SW wyo. I know that alot of the wolves still have a fear of humans and try to avoid them. I also know some of them are losing there fear and are scaring alot of people that spend most of their time where these wolves live.This is happening in all 3 states.I would also like to know why these statistics youve been talking about in this article are 2 yrs old some of them.Those statistics are not even close to what they were then.You didnt even mention the new statistics that came out in march that are the opposite of what they were then. in 12 years forty some wolves have turned into over 1300 still growing strong despite parvo mange and our own fed government killing over 500 themselves. Wyoming will never have under 100 wolves again. not even with active hunting. It would have to be poison like it was back in the olden days. And you ve got to know that wont happen. The Yellowstone elk herd has been cut in half in those 12 years and the calf ratios are alot lower where there are wolves.How do you think our elk population can sustain 12 more years and 1300 or more wolves? Where are you reading that wyoming only wants 100 wolves and will kill 200 right off the bat? That is not wyomings intention at all!!It is also not true about the oil and gas fields killing the deer and elk herds in sublette county. I Know a pilot that flies that area at least 4 days a week and the deer elk and pronghorns herds that winter there look as they have for the last 20 yrs. The wolves that have made it there keep getting killed for cattle deprivation.But within a year new packs have formed every year.when you are reading statistics and news please stay within at least a years time dont bring up stats from 2005 and earlier.Please go to this link and read wyomings 2007 delisting plans.http://gf.state.wy.us/wildlife/wildlife_management/wolf/index.asp. It says they will only shoot the wolves that are threating the elk numbers. The reason for the talk about the feed grounds is because the wolf packs that have were in sublette county last winter were seen many times killing elk after elk in a afternoons romp and never eating a bite. They were finally controlled after they did the same thing to at least 16 yearling calves.The elk will be gone if this keeps up thats a fact!! PLEASE READ RECENT DATA NOT DATA FROM WHEN THERE WERE 500 WOLVES!!

  8. I suppose you are addressing me as the webmaster.

    I think I have been pretty good at keeping up with the current data on the wolves. The data are not from when there were 500 wolves. I don’t post location data anymore because they wolves have lost their protection.

    I’m glad you saw a wolf at South Pass, and hopefully it was on its way to Colorado where folks would welcome some wolves.

    Wyoming’s plan, and the plan the US Fish and Wildlife Service intends to implement at the end of May regardless of Wyoming’s plan, will kill all of the wolves in Sublette County.

    Please remember that half of the 1300 wolves are in Idaho, and there are no indications they have reduced the elk population there (I have posted the statistics). In Wyoming there is some indication of a wolf-related elk decline west and southeast of Cody, but not in Jackson Hole or the surrounding mountains. In Montana the elk and deer populations have been very strong.

    You mentioned that the federal government has killed over 500 wolves and it hasn’t reduced the wolf population. I’m not sure if that number is correct, but it may be.

    If wolves have sufficient prey, they can sustain about a 30% mortality rate indefinitely. If they lack prey or disease enters the picture, the population can tumble very quickly as it did in Yellowstone in 2005 (39% in one year). See, 2005 ends with huge decrease in Yellowstone wolf population

    What disturbs many people is the apparent policy to kill far more than 30% of the wolves in a “hunt.” Of course, if a shooting is not sustainable, not meant to be, it is not a hunt, but reduction.

    . . . a final point. There is a huge threat to elk, and especially deer and pronghorn in Sublette County. It is the fact that there will soon be more gas wells than people.

  9. avatar Ronnie says:

    “The Yellowstone elk herd has been cut in half in those 12 years and the calf ratios are alot lower where there are wolves.How do you think our elk population can sustain 12 more years and 1300 or more wolves?”

    I can understand some of your concerns and I agree wolves will have an impact on herds, that’s what happens in ecosystems. If I am incorrect, please correct me Ralph, but I believe the overall elk population in the state of Wyoming is at, or objective levels. There will be some areas hit harder than others, but that’s no reason to cry “wolf.” Also, having experienced feed grounds firsthand, in years past elk weren’t consumed by wolves because they were bumped off the carcass by humans. In my opinion, we should be thankful the wolves are here to bump the elk around, but then again brucellosis doesn’t seem to worry too many people. If you think wolves have the potential to decimate the elk populations, wait until C.W.D. or Brucellosis hits the feed grounds; we won’t have to worry about wolves OR elk at that point.

    I don’t know if it’s in writing, but EVERYONE knows Wyoming will take the opportunity to kill as many wolves as humanly possible if Predator status is achieved. There is a deep-rooted hatred harbored by many (not all) people in Wyoming and you can bet they’ll be gunning for them, just as they have shown with their “great” coyote hunts some of the sportsmen have sponsored in the last few years..
    Yes, I do believe there should be management; however, predator status doesn’t exactly follow the E.S.A. and it’s guidelines to delist. Idaho and Montana have shown that people can sit down and be semi-civil and agree to terms which will work for everyone involved, unfortunately there are some officials in Wyoming who got a “does not play well with others” on their report cards as youth!!!
    Just my .02

  10. avatar Vicki says:

    Renae,
    Okay, I admit I am fairly new to this arguing wolves stuff, but come on!!! Anyone having ever passed a basic science course in jr. high school knows that you can’t make a conclusive study valid until ALL data is in. In other words, you can’t say that in 2006 the elk were effected in any way, UNTIL you have received all data for each study in question. Then you have to have an expert analyze that data. You can’t get all the data for a year until the year is over. Then it is a while before it can be conclusively made into a statistical model. So given that, 2005 info is fairly recent, I’d say. Besides, you can not decide a soecies fuure based on one or two years, let alone just the most recent. The variables have to be considered.

    Anyway, 1300 wolves, which are sparcely distributed, will stay close to 1300 wolves as long as the prey base remained the average it is now. If the prey base decreases, so do the number of pups that survive. Which in turn balances predator-prey populations.

    Hunting wolves may become necessary, and I said “may”. But they are not the readily adapted fox or coyote. They should not, without a doubt, be hunted like a small game without seasonal restriction.

    Thanks Ronnie, you hit key points.

    Does anyone have evidence to support comments that wolves have lost their fear of humans?

    Dan, I think I will be going. My husband says I’m not one to back down from an argument, ha, why start now?

    Ralph, I spend a lot of time along the Wyo/CO border area. Without giving specifics, I have heard that there have been sightings of both wolves and grizzlies. I even spoke once to a ranger who said he’s spoken to locals who’d seen them too. No one wants to make a formal sighting report, because they don’t want the publicity or hype. The appearntly don’t mind the company. I’d guess some of these locals might be ranchers, since there are many in the area. So they are either not worried, or are shooting the evidence before anyone knows there is a wolf around? The ranger seemed to think they were okay with the wolves/bears around. Do you think it’s better to report sightings, or not?

    I’ve seen a few bears (black) around the area. I’ve been observing moose in the area for years. I have noted increases of both. It is quite something to watch over the years.

    I know there have been two unconfirmed sightings of wolves which have been thought to be valid. There was one confirmed wolf fatality in the Idaho Springs area. (It is amazing how far these animals go in search of mates and food.) All three sightings were relatively far apart. So I tend to believe that dispersing wolves are going to be hard pressed to find mates, however resourceful they may be.

    I’m going to go to this hearing, maybe it’ll prepare me or more here at home.

  11. avatar Dan says:

    I wish just once an anti-wolf person would be straight forward. The skewing of facts and claims that this is about elk or bison or livestock deprevation strike me as disingenuous.

    I wish someone would have the cajones to say, hey, I don’t like wolves because I don’t like wolves. I’d rather they were dead. At least then we’d get to the heart of the matter. This is not about science, this is not about protecting animals – this is about deeply engrained, generations passed down distrust for the wolf.

    Look at the very early history of the reintroduction. Do you think 10M was gunned down one month after reintroduction because of elk or cattle deprevation? This was done because the culture in these parts is to shoot first, ask later, and if it’s a wolf…all the better. In February 2006, still less than 1 year into the reintroduction, 2 more wolves were illegally killed in Wyoming, one outside Daniel and one near Dubois. Again, how could these killing have possibly been motivated out of elk numbers?

    A lot of people in Wyoming don’t like wolves. They shoot coyotes, they shoot wolves, they shoot anything perceived as a varmint. They harrass pro-wolf folks with bumper stickers like “Kill all the goddamned wolves and the people who brought them here.” Often they rely on simple bully tactic – my gun is bigger than yours, my truck is bigger, I’m going to mess with you and anything around me. It’s time to call their bluff in Cody and swarm this final meeting.

  12. avatar elkhunter says:

    They have their right to their opinion just as you do Dan. You may not think it is right, but at the same time I am sure they feel the same way about you. I dont want wolves in UT, thats where I live, they can stay where there at. We dont need them here, some might want them, but we dont need them. Our elk herds are at objective, and the deer herds are below objective. And we have more cougars than we can count. They just cause so many problems when they come, look at the circus ID has been going through the last 10 years. Why would we want that? Why would any state want that? So someone on their 1 wolf watching trip can hear a wolf howl? Not worth it if you ask me. But of course that is my opinion, which is different from yours obviously.

  13. avatar Dan says:

    elkhunter – thank you for your honest reply. Your right…it is a different opinion, and I don’t think any amount of science will change those opinions.

  14. avatar renae says:

    vicki Yes I have heard about wolves being spotted in northern Colorado too. I bet theres some there already.Wolves are so hard to spot with the naked eye when there not moving. That wolf that had just crossed the highway on south pass was invisible in the sagebrush lol. Why dont you people in colorado ask Wyoming to catch a pack or 2 or 10 lol and transplant them in colorado like they did yellowstone? I bet they would do it for free lol.I know that lots of wolves are supposedly seen in wyoming in mountainous areas that currently havent been confirmed or counted. Lots of these sightings are in the wind river mountains.I know when we went elk hunting last fall on horseback above the Big Sandy Lodge we only saw tracks of elk and they were all in the areas where there were lots of trees and in 2s and 3s. It looked like they were acting like the elk in yellowstone that were being hunted by wolves. some other hunters we talked to that had been there about 4 days had seen the tracks of a herd of about 40 that were running across a meadow. People that work at the Big Sandy lodge and take lots of trips on horses up there say they have seen wolves and wolf sign and there are currently no known packs except for one pack close to south pass and the rest between pinedale and cora.I did not mean that all the wolves have lost there fear of humans but there are wolves that have come in close contact with humans lately that did not show any fear at all in fact in some cases they followed people that were alone and scared them pretty bad. Do you have proof that wolf numbers stay the same over time because of the number of prey there is? Alaska and Canada claim they actively hunt the wolves using all available means including arial and trapping, and there wolf population stays the same or grows. Wolves that are hunted know how to hide from hunters it appears to me. Its also been proven in our wolf packs that not just the alpha female is giving birth to pups in the spring and in some cases have shared the same den. That is the reason that the numbers have increased so dramatically in 12 years. All female wolves go into heat and When that happens male wolves breed them. Its instinct in every animal species. And if the alpha females starts killing the pups of the other females maybe the wolf numbers would start to stabilize but I cant see that happening after what ive seen and heard the last 12 years. I think wolf numbers will continue to raise every year. Ralph who told you that if it passes that all the wolves in sublette county would be killed? I hardly doubt that they could do it even if they tried to. Oh and what about the Red Deseret Ive heard of tales that wolves are being seen there now too. Any one else hearing that? Ronnie Yes there are some coyote hunters around sublette county and beyond but I have lived on a ranch not far south of there and allways have enjoyed hearing them almost every day since ive been here. There smart they can hide well and they breed like rabbits almost so ive been told lol.I could tell you a story about 3 coyotes and two dumb blonds last week when our 2 faithful dogs let us know that there were either wolves howling or coyotes yipping but i swear to god no one would believe me so im gonna pass for now.

  15. avatar skyrim says:

    “more cougars than we can count”……………..
    That’s pretty bold Elkhunter. Having spent a fair share of time in Utah’s wilds and living a good part of each of the past 13 years at 7500 feet in the mountains of Central Utah, I must call you out on that one. I have seen some pretty sizeable tracks but never a big cat itself and only a handful of Bobcats.
    BTW, Your opinion on wolves in utah is in the minority, and I think you know that.

  16. avatar Vicki says:

    Renae,
    Numbers of wolves in Yellowstone DECLINED in ’06. And “Alaska” doesn’t claim numbers are always growing. If that were the case, why the stop in wolf bounties there?
    Before wolves were wiped out entirely, I am quite sure that elk roamed in smaller herds, not herds numbering in the 40’s to hundreds. So herds becoming smaller and spreading out is a step towards adaptation. It’s harder for wolves (or any predator-man included) to create chaos, which they use to their advantage, if there are only a few elk. I’d love for them to bring wolves to Colorado. I think they’d greatly benefit our ailing population of ungulates. You are concerned about elk being less like shooting fish in a barrell there… well this year we got to hear a ranger tell us to wear gloves and protective eye wear when dressing our elk in Colorado, because of the huge levels of CWD here. They don’t know if humans can get CWD, but they obviously consider it possible. If you think wolves could dessimate elk, try watching them in the field, (deer too) looking like some one beat them in the head and began starving them slowly. Being eaten would be a sweet release compared to being riddled by desease as your body rots from the inside out, and you slowly starve to death!!!
    I have seen wolves in Montana,Wyoming, and Alaska(23years ago). They were all curious animals, and would probably follow people, from a distance , to asure they stay away from their dens. If they are losing their fear of people, as you say they are, why are they so hard to spot….which you alos point out? Following people doesn’t mean they are stocking them. Jeez o’peezo, come on. If the wolves were going to eat us all, they’d have done so 90 years ago, BEFORE they were all exterminated from the Yellowstone ecosystem. Have you researched wolves in the Michigan area? They expanded, but populations did not explode. Had they done so, your unfounded speculation that they would multiply endlessly would be proven by now… as the wolves have been there longer. Canada has far more wolves than we do, they co-exist quite well compared to us.
    And, to my knowledge, it is the exception, not the rule, for more than one female in the pack to have pups in a year. They nrture pups as a general rule too, so no I doubt they’d ravage all the other puppies born aside from the alpha’s. They don’t need to, starvation would take care of that. Not every female in a pack come into estrus. And not every female that does gets bred. If that were true, there would have been a faster increase in wolf numbers in Yellowstone before a decline began. It is simple mathematics. Coyotes, on the other hand, have adapted to urban areas. My entire family has been hunting them in several states for years. I do know that some hunters just shoot as many as they can. Just as some would do with wolves if they were listed as predators. Coyotes don’t just multiply “like rabits”. But their adaptability lets them seek out food sources more readily than other animals. Now, think about this, all of the animals that have become urbanized are small enough to hide or burrow under houses or in surrounding fields. Do you honestly think that a wolf half the length of the highway’s width would be so easily hidden in the suburbs? No, I don’t think so. Coyotes average one third the size of wolves. Skunks, racoons and foxes even less than that… and ALL of these animals have learned to eat pets and trash, thanks to—HUMANS>
    This is a simple formula… selfish hunters want to shoot more elk and deer, elk and deer health and betterment be damned. (Notice I said “selfish” hunters, not all of them agree with the kill on sight plans-some of us know better). Selfish ranchers want the elk left alone -for now- because as long as elk are populous, they don’t have a reduced grazing area in order to allow more grazing for elk. (Again, not all ranchers agree with that.) And politicians, well they like the controversy, because it gets them more money from special interest groups, and keeps them quite comfy. (Except thise few honest politicians that are seeking to do the right thing-they don’t seem quite as oil-cattle wealthy>)
    It won’t stop with wolves, just like Hitler wouldn’t have stopped with jews. Tyranical behavior doesn’t go away without intervention.
    Why wouldn’t they hunt out and kill all Sublette County’s wolves. Poison works because it is eaten, (not just by wolves either) not because wolves can be seen through a scope. So, people are seeing wolves in more areas. Good for the environment.
    And hey elkhunter, do some research….COMING SOON TO AN ELK HERD NEAR YOU…CHRONIC WASTING DESEASE FROM NEIGHBORING COLORADO! Not to mention, wolves would spread cougars out. They don’t get along.
    Anyway, thanks for your opinion.

  17. avatar elkhunter says:

    Skyrim, having lived my entire life in UT, growing up with the mountains of southern utah in my backyard, and finding multiple deer kills during the winter, the Fish and Game killing 2 cats in our NEIGHBORHOOD treed in a guys backyard. Also having the police show up at my college apartment because there happened to be a cougar treed in the undeveloped lot across the street. All those cougars were very young, why is that? Because the older dominate cats have territories, so whats left for the young cats? Areas in peoples backyards. So if there were a limited number of cats as you suggest, why would we be treeing cats in our backyards? Also having 3 friends that guide for cougars every year, and never seem to have problems finding cats, and also the fact that cougar tags are sold over-the-counter for objective management, some of those units dont even reach objective, cause actually chasing and treeing a cat is not as easy at it may sound. Plus the areas you have to hunt are not exactly like taking a walk in the park. It might also be the informative essay I did in college about predator management, where I had to interview 2 biologist for the Fish and Game in Cedar City about cougars, populations, and effects on deer. So I would think that somewhere along that line I might have learned a little bit more about cats in our state than you might have learned in the summers you spend in UT. Also skyrim, one thing you will learn about cats, the reason you dont see them, is they dont really like being seen, I have hunted for over 15 years and have only seen 2. They are very secretive. And I dont think I am the minority in UT about wolves. You might think that because you talk to lots of activist people that are pro-wolf, and city people who just think it would be cool to have a wolf in the state, that just maybe on the one camping trip they take in 5 years might have the opportunity to hear one howl. So I would probably listen to the people who support habitat conservation, do hundreds of service hours for the fish and game, people who actually make a difference, and generate time and money, not people who live in downtown SLC that give a couple hundred bucks to the Sierra Club so they can fight to have wolves in UT.

  18. avatar elkhunter says:

    Vicki, I know from your post that you feel you are very knowledgeable. In your own eyes. I hunt in CO every year, I will be in unit 66 this fall hunting elk. Hunted units 82,80,85 last year. Every elk I saw was very healthy, the country was beautiful, I enjoyed it. I know that CWD is in CO, but it is only in certain units. Not all units. And it could become a major problem, but I dont think wolves are the answer. Do some research. Your plan of spreading hysteria through your wonderful reenactment of a starving elk might work with those who dont know better. And you are contradicting your friend Ralph on how wolves effect ungulate populations, he always states that they dont adversly effect populations, so your plan to use wolves to lower populations, kinda contradicts Ralph. So you might wanna get on the same page. Also once again we dont need wolves. We can kill more cougars and be just fine. Plus you prob have no idea about UT elk herds and habitat. So before you try to confound me with your infinite wisdom, I will tell you to do some research. Thanks

  19. Elkhunter,

    Vicki was writing about elk starving because they had brain disease and couldn’t figure out how to eat anymore.

    There is the possibility that wolves could detect a CWD-infected deer or elk at an early stage before it becomes really infectious and take it out.

    You might also think about it in Utah because CWD has crossed the border and is in the area around Vernal.

  20. avatar skyrim says:

    Elkhunter, I have lived my entire 58 years in Utah dude, so it would be unwise for you to to assume otherwise. Also, I did not suggest that it was only living under the bright summer sun I spent my time in the Utah mountains. In fact some of my most memorable times have been spent there after packing in on snowshoes. You also assume that I do not understand the behavior and secretive nature of big cats. That too would be wrong. Also, your “guide” pals would not be pleased that I have interrupted their treed cats on a number of occasions under threat of being shot.
    BTW, I see that you can in fact count as evidence by the number 2 you show as the number of “uncountable” cats you’ve seen.
    Believe me fella, I do know what I am talking about. Now you know a little more about me, and I know all I need to know about you.

  21. avatar Vicki says:

    Elkhunter, I have spent some some time in Utah. IBut I don’t need to like there to realize that CWD is spreading. I pray it doesn’t find it’s way to South Dakota, where they have an over population of deer, and only a handful of elk. I never claimed to be wise, but buddy, I am not the ignorant person you are attempting to portray me as. I too have interrupted treeing of cats. If you are going to hunt, be a sport, and use some skill. Sounds more like your guide friends let DOGS hunt. Thanks for throwing me in with Ralph, I consider him good company. He’s right, CWD has spread, and THAT is what I was referring to. Hunt a little farther into Colorado-my home state-and do YOUR home work. CWD is much more concerning than you’d like the uninformed to believe. Maybe you forgot, in your college paper, to read the info, or ask the scientists, who have determined that wolves cull out sick and starving animals. We don’t know if they’d do that with CWD, because many years ago uneducated people killed off wolves here in CO. But I think it’d be worth finding out, before all the deer and elk I hunt at home are exposed. I’m glad you enjoyed Colorado while hunting. I’d probably be mistaken in assuming you’d therefore be interested in seeing the environment you enjoy hunting in reach a healthy balance. You are intitled to your opinion, and I’m proud to live in a country where expressing your opinion is legal and encouraged. I’m glad when people like you speak up, it allows others to see what well meaning people we need to first consider, and then defeat. Keep up the good work, after having read your comments I am now more dedicated than ever to do what needs done to defend and promote predator reintroduction!

  22. avatar JEFF E says:

    Skyrim, Vicki, keep in mind elkhunter was making statements that wolves ranged 150 -200 lb a little while back on a different post so obviously biology is not a strong suit. FYI

  23. avatar renae says:

    Vicki the year was 2004 when the count dropped. If you read this link http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/yellowstone-park-wolf-population-waydown-end2005.htm. you will see that wolf packs were in conflict with other packs and dispersing or getting killed. They formed new packs or moved to Jackson Idaho and montana that year why? obviously 181 wolves were tooo many for yellowstone. They also estimated the number of subadults and pups in at least 3 packs without having a clue to the number.118 in not the correct number when you guess and estimate without seeing. Im so glad they are trying to keep better more accurate counts now.Do you realize how hard it is to spot wolves with the naked eye? Do you know that when a wolf pack is avoiding humans and hiding when they see hear or smell you, Unless they have some collars and your flying and finding them and staying around long enough to get an acurate count you will not only not know the true number of wolves in that pack, you will have no idea that those wolves are there.They know how to stay out of site. Remember the first wolf i ever saw that crossed the highway on south pass? It was probably as big as wolves can get because walking across the highway, from head to tail it looked like it measured from the solid white line on the side to the dotted line in the middle.It was also over 3ft tall. where he was after that was a mystery because he disapeared in an area that had small clumps of sagebrush and lots of dead grass. He couldnt of gotten far either. If he would of been still walking or running, we would of been able to see him clearly.Please give these awesome animals the credit they deserve and start trying to learn the truth about Our Wolves.By the way 7500 ft and wind river mountains and just highway no houses no ranches in the area is not suberbs its our beautiful wyoming high mountain desert. Youve never been on South pass have you. The closest ranch to that spot could of been mine I was only 15 miles from home. I am not researching wolves in Michigan i am only concerned about the wolves that I have to learn to live with now and facts and figures on packs in areas that our like ours.Do you know why Canada is not experiencing problems? They actively hunt trap and kill wolves even with airplanes.They think that their population stays about the same.Theres no way to know if it does without accurate counts. please dont compare the wolves that your watching in the lamar valley with powerful scopes and cameras to the wolves that are trying to be normal wolves.Those wolves will be the first to kill a human if its going to happen.You people down in Colorado that want these wolves so bad are going to get them believe me Im sure there are allready wolves in northern colorado and southern wyoming that are not very populated.Do realize I have drove from wyoming into colorado on highways that are barely maintained and turn into dirt roads for miles then back to highways. In different locations and in those areas If theres wolves there Your gonna have fun finding them. So If I were you I would Go to a place thats In Colorado but close to wyoming with only real Wild country with elk ,deer or moose populations and get out and go for a long hike and look for tracks, scat and wolves. BUT NO SUBURBS ALLOWED!!! WOLVES ARE NOT LIVING IN SUBURBS!!! Wyoming doesnt even have suburbs.If you do find wolves it will be because you come upon tracks and scat. Unless of course youve got a two to four seater airplane you can fly close enough the ground to spot them that way maybe. That wont be easy either with the snow gone and people who have no clue how to look for a wild animal when you dont use highways to do it.Vicky I hope you find wolves soon. If your smart you will but from some of the things you say and believe it will take you awhile to learn about our wolves.

    Renae,

    I agree with about half of what you say, but regarding the shooting of wolves by people who have experience, it’s easy. Government wolf elimination would work like this. They set a trap and catch a wolf. They radio collar the wolf. The wolf rejoins the pack. They fly and find the signal. Then it’s usually easy to shoot the pack from the air. I have been to South Pass and the desert to the south. From the air the wolves would be easy to see.

    This has been done a number of times already for control of packs that kill a fair amount of livestock, so I am not speculating. Ralph Maughan

  24. avatar elkhunter says:

    Jeff E., Read that about wolves in AK, that some reach 200 lbs. My buddy shot one in AK that wieghed 150 lbs. And skyrim, how else would you propose to hunt cats? thats what hunting dogs are for, and if you and Vicki thinks its so easy, I would like to see you keep up, and how hard it really is. And I was not referring to Ralph in anyway about CWD. I was talking about wolves lowering ungulate pops go back and read. I like predators, dont get me wrong, I hunt them all year long, I just dont fall into the tree-hugger approach of wolves at all cost.

  25. Elkhunter wrote, “Jeff E., Read that about wolves in AK, that some reach 200 lbs.”

    I’ve got to call bull– on that one.

    A 200 pound wolf has never been documented in North America, and 150 pound wolves are very rare.

  26. avatar JEFF E says:

    I’ll have to check when I get home but I believe that the biggest wolf on record was 148# and was shot in AK. So if your buddy bagged a 150# he would have a world class record. But they just don’t grow em much bigger and then it would be only a minuscule % of the overall population. Just a little more about myself elkhunter. I have been following, studying, and interacting with wolves for about 30 yrs. I know a little bit about them.

  27. avatar skyrim says:

    I have never proposed hunting cats, although there may be a need to do so in rare occasions. I have watched the pursuit and while I would conclude there is a lot going on, I would doubt that chasing a bunch of barking hounds on high powered snowmobiles is a lot of work. Nor is the plink of a small caliber pistol from the bottom of an old cedar tree and the cat falls into your lap. Don’t call that hunting son. Hunting is done wearing a loin cloth and a carrying a spear. ;-))

  28. avatar elkhunter says:

    skyrim i wish i could hunt with the guys that you know then! cause we were chasing them all day long on snowshoes, up and down canyons, chased 3 till we finally killed one. it was the hardest hunt i have ever done. so if you know some guys that i can hunt with that do it off snowmobiles then let me know! the heaviest wolf recorded was 175 lbs. thats according to Wikipedia but the are not an activist website so you would probably dismiss it. so i am sure that somewhere out there a wolf could top 200 lbs.
    and vicki and skyrim, just out of curiousity, how did you interrupt the treeing of cats? That would be funny I would imagine to watch, vicki i have a hard time picturing a woman at 5 a.m. in 3 feet of snow chasing some hounds to prevent them from killling a cat! lol. the guys i know would not take kindly to that and would act accordingly i would imagine, just like if someone came into your job and was trying to prevent you from making money, you also need to understand vicki that they are hunting cats legally, and i believe that you can actually be sued if you prevent someone from legally harvesting a big-game animal, they can sue for tag fees, guide fees, things of that nature. plus if i paid $4,000 to go on a cougar hunt and some activist came in to stop me, i would probably be kinda mad.

  29. avatar elkhunter says:

    And skyrim I agree with you on the challenge of hunting! Thats why i only hunt with a bow!

  30. avatar JEFF E says:

    elk hunter,
    Your right. As you said the heaviest wolf on record according to Wikipedia is 175 lbs. L. David Mech says wolves reach may ~175 lbs in the extreme northern range of the species. Wikipedia says(you left this part out) that that weight is at the extreme upper range for the species or as I said that anything more than 150 would be a minuscule % of the overall population.

  31. avatar elkhunter says:

    Either way, thats a big wolf.

  32. avatar JEFF E says:

    It is and at that size is such an exception that it has been nearly eighty years since it was shot and in all that time with the thousands+ wolves killed in Canada and Alaska that has been the biggest. Go to the blog on Bears that is linked here on Ralphs site and check out the Grizz that was killed in Washington state in the twenties that weighed 1300 + lbs. (how would you like that puppy to land on you) That specimen is now in the Smithsonian museum. That 175# wolf is at the same level of rarity.

  33. avatar JEFF E says:

    and any wolf between ~115 to 150 is the exception rather than the rule.

  34. If you haven’t seen a wolf before, you may be surprised how big it looks. They look bigger than an equally heavy dog.

    Wolves are tall, and gray wolves often mistaken for deer at a distance.

    When wolf 453M in Yellowstone was inadvertently caught in a coyote snare in Yellowstone park in Oct. 2004, I examined the wolf close up. I watched Doug Smith and Dan Stahler carry the tranquilized wolf across the meadow, and then I had a close up look in the back of the pick up truck. I estimated the wolf weighed about 120 pounds. It weighed 90.

    Photo

  35. avatar Jay says:

    Hey Jeff, can you link the story of the 1300# bear? I went through all the stories in the bears section and couldn’t find the story you refer to.

    Thanks.

  36. avatar JEFF E says:

    Just above blogroll and below the tag breakout is BEARS. One chocie is Chris Morgans Wildlife Blog. Open the Grizzly Bear Outreach link. Find and open Grizzly Bear Observations. The information on this bear is near the end of that link.

  37. avatar renae says:

    Ralph I know a lot more then you want to make everyone think i dont and you know it. Do you live in Wyoming? If so for how long? Do you know that my husband has owned this ranch since 1982 in an area where coyotes are very prevelant and has never suffered a livestock loss? There have been wolves close by for 3 years and I was never worried about them getting my animals until I realized why people like you have been fighting the delisting so vigoursly.Why are you people so against livestock? Im lucky my cows stay on our property, but I am aware of the tricks and the shenanagans you people are pulling. I also know if your allowed to continue our wide open spaces will be a thing of the past. we will be just like every other crowded state in america.

    I live in Idaho, and have seen lots of wolves; and I wrote two backpacking guides to parts of Wyoming. I grew up in Utah and Idaho.

    I know that threat to the wide open spaces where you live are the gas rigs. I’ve camped out on the edge of the Jonah gas field and watched the wells on the Pinedale Anticline grow like knapweed. We are fighting the delisting because that state of Wyoming wants to pretty much kill every wolf except those in Yellowstone Park. If Wyoming politicians and Idaho politicians had a different attitude, no one would fight delisting.

    My beef is generally with livestock on public property, like Jim Magagna and his sheep operation there in the Prospect Mountains. That might be near your place.. Ralph Maughan

  38. avatar renae says:

    Please everyone read the at this linkhttp://www.aws.vcn.com/default.html

  39. avatar Vicki says:

    Renae, I have seen wolves with my own eyes, no spotting scope or camera… and not just in Yellowstone. I’m not against cows… I eat them all the time. Infact, prices of beef will likely go up this year, here, due to the large storms that killed many thousands of cattle this last winter. But just like I’ll pay more for beef this year, I’d pay more if wolves drove prices up to. (OR the risk of burcellosis). Now it is wolves, before them, and again, it’ll be buffalo then elk then deer. Where do your rights become so much more important than everyone else’s? Your unwillingness to learn about other situations involving wolves convinces me of how little you care about the entire situation or a viable solution that everyone can live with. You are seemingly motivated only by your own needs and unfounded fears. I simply don’t agree. But , because I like to be informed, I’ll look up your web sites from above. And thanks for the condesending attitude, but I (like you claim to) have some knowledge here too. So do many of the other people you obviously disagree with. You are the one who brought up the coyotes… I just pointed out obvious differences. I’m glad they haven’t bugged your cattle, but I saw three of them eating a calf on the farm next door to my parents’ place a week ago. I let their neighbor know, so he could take care of it. One ate my dog about 8 years ago. A friend of mine saw two coyotes eating a black lab on her way to work not to long ago too. If wolves got to that level, then I’d say it was time to make them a predator class game animal. And yes,(not that it matters) I have been to South Pass. I’m not some one who reads from afar, and never sees first hand, so please try to get past that misconception. I also think that wolves that predate on livestock have to be eliminated. Obviously they aren’t that hard to spot, as many who have predated on livestock have been shot. I don’t entirely disagree with you, but the ranch you live on is yours, the state you live in, and the wolves you want shot on sight aren’t. Here in the USA, we all have ownership over somethings. So, I’ll still be there on the 19th. along with what now looks to be 11 other people for you to disagree with from my area.
    Elkhunter, as long as I am on public land I can be anywhere in the field I choose to be during hunting season. I have never endangered anyone by being there. It’s been a few years since I’ve interrupted, but I’m missing it already. You seem to be quite the chauvenist. You can’t picture a “woman” in 3 feet of snow. Guess what guy, I left my apron in the kitchen the day I decided to buy shoes and not stay pregnant for all time. And it’s basic…. you make a lot of noise… bang some pots or pans, whistle etc. And for fun, I take a few dogs of my own out to areas I know cougars are…. makes them kind of jumpy, and harder to locate. If guides know where cougars are, so can anyone else. If you want to hunt cougars in season, fine… but don’t say you hunt if the dogs actually do it for you. By the way, I have been hunting since I was old enough to have a small game license… about 30 years. And I’ve been shooting and fishing even longer. I shoot as well as, and better than most men I know. And yes sir, I do know how to shoot a bow. I hunt big game, and believe that wolves , when ready to be delisted, should be classified as a trophy game. So getting all huffy at me is somewhat wasted. I support hunters in most situations. I just don’t believe that wolves are ready to be delisted and classified as a predator. Until I believe they are, I’ll speak up to the contrary. I believe they have positive effect on the environment. I enjoy fishing in the rivers of Yellowstone that are recovering since their return. I’m not selfish or naive enough to believe that alllowing hunters (archery or otherwise) to shoot all the wolves in sight is going to solve all of our environmental woes. I’d rather have a tag for, and shoot one healthy elk than six that were simply too overpopulated to thrive. You say that isn’t a problem in Utah, but it is in Colorado. I also really find it disturbing that you’d throw in an insinuation that your friends would act accordingly. What are you emplying? Your true nature is showing. Unfortunately for you, I am not easily intimidated. You just strengthen my resolve. Have a great day!

  40. avatar JEFF E says:

    Vicki,
    Your a person after my own heart. Pleased to meet you.

  41. avatar Vicki says:

    You too , Jeff. It’s nice to hear from a friend.

  42. avatar CJ says:

    I agree, they should be a trophy animal , if and when, they are ready to be hunted. Wolves are magnificent animals, and shouldn’t just be shot without a second thought. They are worthy of being trophy game when the time comes.

  43. avatar elkhunter says:

    Vicki, you sometimes get so wound up you put words in peoples mouths. Have I once said that wolves should be considered a predator and shot on site? NO. So you know what they say about assumptions, you just make an ass of yourself. I have never said that, so please dont put words in my mouth. I do agree that wolves should be considered trophy animals, just like cougars, bears, elk those animals. It seems that you try to make yourself out to be some attacked person, and that how strong of a woman you are to standing up to someone who disagrees with you. Thats what this blog is all about , opinions, so in your mind you may feel that you are paving the way for woman on this blog, but I dont really see it that way, you say your opinion, I say mine, goes nothing more beyond that. You need to realize that sometimes someone may not agree %100 with you. So you can feel like your are being singled out and attacked, or you can realize that is how it is with everyone. Not just you. As for my friends, they are a pretty rough bunch, I have found that if you go around looking for confrontation, you can usually find one, like trying to prevent someone from LEGALLY harvesting a big-game animal. So ya, my friends would probably not be to understanding to your point of view! And about the dogs, I have a question, I train English Pointers, its a breed of hunting dog, I have trained them for years, so when I go hunting with them, are you saying then that everytime they point a rooster, and I shoot it, that I am some sort of lazy hunter? I hope that you have never hunted over a lab, or any other kind of working dog, because that would make you a hypocrite. Do you have any idea how much effort and work goes into training a hunting dog, Hound or bird dog? I would guess not. Once again Vicki you will find in life that some people wont agree with you, and activists are not always right, cattle are not the cause of everything evil in the world, and wolves are not the cure for everything.

  44. avatar elkhunter says:

    And I like the picture you paint of a cougar hunt. Just mosey out in the mountains with some pans, take your border collie, drive around for a second, get out whistle, let your dog run aroud, smack a couple pans together, and WHAM

  45. avatar elkhunter says:

    you just found a cat. I wish it was that easy, like i said earlier, tell me where your goin cause it sounds a helluva lot easier than where I hunt. So if you know some guides out in CO vicki that can put me on a big tom that wasy, give me their number!!!!!

  46. avatar renae says:

    Renae, this is Ralph, not Vicky. Excuse me for butting in, but your post has a lot of common misperceptions, so I will use it as a template to set matters straight. This needs to be done every so often.

    Actually vicky it you who is motivated by your wants and needs. You want wolves in Colorado and think they wont make it there if they are delisted. I wanted wolves too I still do but the more I find out about them I dont think we can keep them from putting our elk deer and buffalo on the endangered species list.

    Wolves don’t kill enough bison to matter. It is too hard. The Wyoming Game and Fish data show that wolves might have increased the rate of decline of elk populations in 4 of the 8 herd areas with wolves, but the important statistic is that elk populations have been decreasing all over Wyoming in almost every herd over the last 20 or so years. That is what should concern you and everyone else who cares about elk.

    Where did i say I wanted wolves shot on site? Ive never felt that way. Do you like to put words in peoples mouths who disagree with you?And yes Vicki wolves are alot easier to spot in an airplane. I was talking about when you are on the ground. I am not worried about my rights they have nothing to do with wolves at all.im worried about the rest of the wildlife that will be gone because theres not enough to sustain a wolf population that increases about 20% a year.

    The wolf population hasn’t grown at 20% a year everywhere constantly. The most consistant growth has been in Idaho. In Yellowstone Park the wolf population has peaked and will likely never reach the level it hit in 2004. The same will be true in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming if they are left unmolested more or less — they will peak and then decline some, and the numbers bounce up and down.

    Now if 29 wolves can increase to over 1300 in 12 years how many will there be in 12 more years.

    It was 63 wolves. 63 wolves were reintroduced. In 12 more years there might be 2000 wolves, or there might be 700 wolves. Neither would surprise me.

    The federal government has killed 540 for pet and livestock deprivation, If you could get a close count of all the other wolves that have died i bet would total at least 1000.


    The rule of thumb is that with a good prey base wolf mortality can be 30% or even 40% a year and the population will not decline. If those thousand wolves had not been killed, it is likely the number today would not be 2300, but more like 1300 or 1500. When wolf territory is filled, the packs fight and kill each other, any many wolves disperse way out of the area. Most of these dispersing lone wolves end up dead. Predicting populations of wolves or any other wild animal is not a matter of calculating number born, number died, getting a per cent and then extrapolating it.

    if 29 wolves can turn into over 2000 wolves in that amount of time were in over heads!! It also irks me that we agreed to 10 breeding pairs in Wyoming we now have alot more then that and they still willnot stop fighting the delisting and im sure they never will. the greenies should be called much worse name then that.

    Your concerns have been raised again and again by others, so I took the time to answer them again. Ralph Maughan

  47. avatar elkhunter says:

    Ranae, she said I wanted to shoot wolves on sight also. But if you read all my comments, I never said anything like that, it must be the issue she likes to talk about.

  48. avatar Layton says:

    Sorry, I just GOTTA do this;

    This has to qualify for the quote (joke?) of the week/month. I really thought that April Fools’s day was 14 days ago.

    To quote Mr. Maughan.

    ” If Wyoming politicians and Idaho politicians had a different attitude, no one would fight delisting. ”

    In a couple of letters —- BS! There will never be a day that ANY of the wolf worshipers on this thread will ever NOT fight delisting for ANY reason!!

    And then this:

    ” In Yellowstone Park the wolf population has peaked and will likely never reach the level it hit in 2004. The same will be true in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming if they are left unmolested more or less — they will peak and then decline some, and the numbers bounce up and down.”

    Probably true, it will happen right AFTER the elk population in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming decreases by aprox. 2/3s like the population in Yellowstone has. Oh, yes, and then there needs to be a parvo epedimic in all those places to coincide with the lack of elk.

    Layton

  49. avatar Vicki says:

    Actually, I could care less if you “attack me.” But as for you doing it or not, well just read the past few posts you’ve made. I’m not too concerned about your opinion of me. And, the whole point here is that the meeting on the 19th is to determine how and if the wolf should be delisted. If you delist it as a varmit, you can shoot it any time you want to. That is what I most strongly disagree with. And frankly, Elkhunter, you seem to represent yourself as just the type to shoot anything you see. You boast shooting coyotes for bounties of 25 dollars. If wolves were listed in the same manner that coyotes are, I’m pretty convinced you’d shoot as many of them as you could also. THAT is why I have objections, because of that attitude. I don’t mind your difference of opinion,or Renae’s for that matter. I enjoy debating it with you because it helps put the issues out there. Do I feel singled out? NO, you ASSumed I did. Quite the contrary, I think you two are far more removed from what the majority of bloggers here support. I have never hunted with a dog. And, mountain lions are not as hard to find as you portray them to be. Matter of fact, a lady in boulder found one in her neighbors yard last week. Would I tell you or anyone who’d align themselves with you how I find them …. not on any day ending in Y. I didn’t paint a picture of a cougar hunt at all,I told you a few ways to make having a successful one with dogs a little harder to acheive. The pans and dogs scare them off, before the other dogs can get too close. (No border collies here…who puts words in others mouths?)That is just as legal as your hunt with dogs. Seems to me that you two are the one’s feeling attacked, because every time anyone disagrees with you, YOU go into attack mode. And like it or not, if the wolf becomes listed as a varmit, they will be shot on sight, provocation or neccesity be damned. FYI, I grew up in a family that has raised and trained dogs for over 40 years. Yes, I know how much it requires. I commend you for having patience enough to train an animal. I still disagree with using dogs to hunt cougars. Enough said. Your comments, the ones I read anyhow, show youare more opposed to wolves in general. You may not have said you’d support them being shot on sight in those exact words….but you have made it quite obvious that you aren’t a supporter of their existence either. You think they aren’t an answer, I disagree. You think hunting more will fix things, I disagree. You were ASSuming just as much as anyone else here. So where do you stand elkhunter? You say you think they should be a trophy game animal, but then you say you don’t think they belong in Utah or Colorado. So it’s okay in Wyoming, or Montana… but not your state? Now who is the hypocrite? By the way, you don’t have to be a strong person to fire a gun. You just have to have a trigger finger. Do I think I am a strong woman? What the heck does that have to do with anything here? Do you? Well who gives a hoot? Are you singling me or anyone else out? Well, give it a go. We’re all happy to debate here. If we didn’t disagree, there’d be no need for arguing. Like I said, if you want to lump me into a stereo-type go ahead. But you’d be wrong. Activist? Well somewhat, but mostly just a realist. I’m done with this debate. I’m sure you’ll be around for the next one.

  50. avatar elkhunter says:

    Vicki of course I dont want them in UT. Thats the whole point, I dont want the drama down here and the problems they bring, keep them where there at. Thats all, I do agree with you that they need to be regulated and controlled. Not like coyotes that you can just shoot.

  51. avatar Vicki says:

    See, there is some middle ground.

  52. avatar renae says:

    Vicky You finally said the right thing when you said we are feeling attacked!!!My whole life growing up I knew I wanted to live on ranch. Ranches were the most amazing things i thought even though I had never been on a ranch .My mother was raised on a farm. My moms sister had a farm not far from grandmas with horses and a big red barn. I loved both places dearly but still hadnt ever been to a ranch.when i was 31 I moved from a town to a place which i could call my farm. This of course was because of a man who I knew would be mine the first time i saw him walk in the where i worked.He was living in a motel room and was the bossman at a big job that had just started.We were together about 3 or 4 months before i realized he lived on a farm.
    Do you know when i moved to my new farm I was didnt even think that it wasnt a ranch. I now had horses and dogs and was happy as a lark.I moved there on labor day weekend and when october you would not believe what happened in October. I couldnt believe it God had to of done this I know Theres no way that all the sudden between 75 and 100 cows that were owned by an old man that needed a place where he could keep them where they would be fed and cared for in exchange for a percentage of the calf crop. Im coming to Cody to tell everyone about a cow I know that came in with those cows thats named I named Blondie when i was went out in the corral and helped her deliver her first calf.It was lalso my first calf to see being born.It was half way out when i came upon them and I thought she was having trouble but she had quit pushing because i came up by her. she was laying down so i kneeled down by the calf and grabbed it and started pulling and it wouldnt budge.She started to push again and lo and behold out comes the calf.And that Is the begining of a story about me and blondie that you wont believe at all because OH SHES JUST A COW!!!!Actually you wont believe it because the things that happened when during these last 12 years, could could only have been done by God. Oh my God 12 years

  53. avatar Melanie says:

    I live in Cody, Wyoming. My husband and I hunt work and play in the mountains here. We are willing to live with wolves the same way we live with mountain lions, grizzly bears and black bears. I do belive that we need to have a working plan to help aid ranchers in the control of wolves. They will adapt the same as the other predators. The msart one will stay out of trouble and pass this on to thier offsprring. Ranchers are willing to aid in working with the state or federal goverment. Many make a small income off the land. One old timer told me he could make a living ranching or sell his ranch to developers. I think it is great that we have wolves in the wild and they have their place here as they did a hundred years ago. We all have to learn to get along.

  54. avatar Barb says:

    Killing wolves seems similar to someone hunting German Shepherds. It is a strange, strange concept!

  55. avatar Barb says:

    Melanie,

    I am so glad to hear from someone like you who lives in Wyoming and accepts wolves.

    Most Wyoming blogs and forums are so vehemently anti-wolf that we forget that there are people like you who accept them.

    Your side needs to get its voice out more in your state!

  56. avatar Barb says:

    Elkhunter,

    Your DOG has a higher chance of attacking me than a wolf or other predator anyday.

    Please research and get your facts straight please before you post nonsense.

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Quote

‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."

~ Edward Abbey

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