Wolves Missing In Gila Forest. By Rene Romo. Copyright © 2007 Albuquerque Journal; Journal Southern Bureau

Update: Governor Richardson: Disappearance of wolf pack is ‘disturbing.’ KVIA.com. As we know, Governor Richardson is running for President. One way to show leadership in the area domestic terrorism would be to clean up the long-term trouble-makers in the area. The Catron County area has been dangerous for a long time, which threats and assaults on federal land management officers, local conservationists, violation of grazing, ESA and other public land laws.

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About The Author

Ralph Maughan

Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University with specialties in natural resource politics, public opinion, interest groups, political parties, voting and elections. Aside from academic publications, he is author or co-author of three hiking/backpacking guides, and he is President of the Western Watersheds Project.

48 Responses to Entire wolf pack of rare Mexican Wolves Missing in Gila National Forest

  1. avatar Dave Collins says:

    Boy that has got to be the worst run project I’ve heard of yet. It really seems nobody really cares. I like the comment from the head of the livestock agency ” We did’nt have anything to do with it” It even sounds guilty. Thats really a shame that nobody can get there arms around it. Maybe we should ask Doug Smith to go show the how its done!

  2. avatar catbestland says:

    Yeah, that statement followed by the one to the effect of “it was bound to happen or what did you expect” And I’m paraphrasing here, really convinced me that the stockman’s association members had nothing to do with it… NOT ! Ranchers are simply not afraid of what will happen to them even if they get caught killing a protected species. There has been no example of punishment to fit the crime set. I cannot remember anyone ever getting anywhere close to the recommended punishment set by the Federal Courts for any of these poaching cases. And ranch hands are more than willing to carry out their bosses orders for a few extra bucks. They are often held up as heros by the ranching communities if they are caught. Apparently the Sun Ranch was fined only about $2500. for the illegal torture and killing of the alpha female in July. Shame on the judges who let these guys get off so easily for criminal actions.

  3. avatar Todd Ringler says:

    Doug Smith has 2.2 millions acres of the best habitat imaginable and essentially no one lives there (or more importantly, no cattle live there!) — and on top of that there is several more million areas of adjoining wilderness w/ minimal grazing. I think that has had a lot to do with the success of the Yellowstone wolves. Having millions of visitors, documentaries, and news profiles to support the effort has not hurt either.

    Southern New Mexico and Wyoming are cut from the same mold. The same political lackies that are allowing the Wyoming plan to get through are allowing the Mexican wolf progam to die a slow death. Both processes are driven by poltical pressures from the top and bottom squeezing (and generally ignoring) the biologists in the middle.

    While biologists might lead in the process of introduction — the success of the programs have little to do with biology. These are mainly a “cultural reintroduction program” — and as has been said many time before, the cultural reintroduction has been far less successful than the wildlife reintroduction.

    This whole Mexican Wolf reintroduction program is undergoing a review. It is in the first stage at this point (public scoping : http://www.fws.gov/southwest/es/mexicanwolf/pdf/Scoping_meeting_PR.pdf ). If anyone is interested in submitting comments, I would be more than happy help in any way I can — either by sharing my comments and/or providing background information on the program to date. Feel free to contact me. Possibly as we get into December Ralph will open a tread to faciltate the process of getting comments into FWS on this topic.

    Todd Ringler
    todd.ringler at mac.com

  4. avatar Dave Collins says:

    Todd, you seem to know a lot about whats going on. Are you a part of the program, because I would really like to get a better understanding of whats going on and yes I would like to get involved.

  5. avatar catbestland says:

    Todd,

    You bet I want to make comments on the plan. Especially if it will help persuade some of these judges to hold accountable those who have absolutely no regard for Federal laws protecting endangered species. Thanks for the link.

  6. avatar Mack P. Bray says:

    Let’s not forget that the Gila National Forest is larger than Yellowstone National Park by over a *million* acres and the Gila Wilderness was the first designated wilderness in America. I first visited the Gila in the fall of last year – magnificent country – I love it.

    Thanks for everything you’re doing, Todd.

    We should all comment on the review.

    Now if we can get the damn livestock off it.

    http://wildlifewatchers.jottit.com/

  7. avatar JB says:

    “While biologists might lead in the process of introduction — the success of the programs have little to do with biology. These are mainly a “cultural reintroduction program” — and as has been said many time before, the cultural reintroduction has been far less successful than the wildlife reintroduction.”

    This is what many social scientists have been saying for years–and yet, FWS continues to pour money into the biological aspects with little or no financial support for the social sciences.

  8. avatar Mack P. Bray says:

    JB, exactly what would you like to see regarding social sciences in the reintroduction of wolves? What actually would be realistic and effective, in your opinion?

  9. avatar Dave Collins says:

    How bad do they really want the wolves back? And whos in bed with the Government, Livestock companies etc!

  10. avatar Izabela says:

    Mack, please e-mail me regarding Wildlifewatchers.

  11. avatar Izabela says:

    Mack, my e-mail izabelam@aol.com. thanks.

  12. avatar Mack P. Bray says:

    Izabela, I will; please ask Ralph to send me your email address. Thanks…!

    http://wildlifewatchers.jottit.com/

  13. avatar mikarooni says:

    Those are very, very, very bad people down there and the majority of them, all of the worst of them, are armed. Not all of their brash talk is just talk. There is no law that normal Americans would recognize, certainly no impartial application of justice. It is dangerous for outsiders to wander around down there and, if they find out that you are any kind of conservationist, especially a wolf advocate, it gets even more dangerous. Think some bizarre combination of Stepford, Warren Jeffs, Deliverance, and Poltergeist. I’m not trying to dissuade anyone from getting involved, just want to keep the youthfully naive from going down there to get a bad surprise. If you go, you must know how to stay calm, cool, immune to being rattled or spooked, know how to stay out of locations where you can be separated and cornered, and know how to defend yourself. This is no spooky story. I know what I’m talking about. They’ve killed people down there, chained them to trees and left them to rot.

  14. avatar Linda Hunter says:

    Mack wildlifewatchers of Wyoming sounds great!! I don’t live there but I would love to join. . . it is badly needed there and in Alaska, Washington, Orgeon, Idaho .. . everywhere I go. Are you ready to start signing up members? Maybe you should think big, start small and then make it national.

  15. avatar Mack P. Bray says:

    mikarooni, tell me you’re not serious about the situation in New Mexico…

    Linda, everyone that’s familiar with Wildlife Watchers thinks it’s a great concept. We’re not ready to start a membership roster, but will be in the near future. We would like each state to have it’s own group that would lobby their respective state and yes, eventually, lobbyists in Washington.

    At this point, I’m the contact for Wildlife Watchers of (name your state).

    Email me here: wildlifewatchers@bresnan.net

    Please be aware that all we presently have is a concept, but there could be some great news in the near future. Here’s the concept:

    http://wildlifewatchers.jottit.com/

    Please be aware the Wildlife Watchers is not an anti-hunting or anti-angling concept.

  16. avatar Todd Ringler says:

    Mack,

    Yes, you are correct in that the Gila National Forest is larger than Yellowstone National Park by over a *million* acres and the Gila Wilderness was the first designated wilderness in America.

    …. but the Gila is filled with grazing allotments and in this part of the country, grazing is year round. This has led to a sense of entitlement (more so than normal!) because the ranchers have cattle there all year round for years on end. I just looked at my GIS maps of the Gila — there are 135 grazing allotments in Gila National Forest covering almost the entire 3.3 million acres. Many of these allotments have a deeded property of less than 100 acres that control tens of thousands of acres of public lands grazing. e.g. Y Canyon has 40 deeded acres that controls 52,667 acres and run 360 head year round.

    Todd

  17. It is this way in parts of central Idaho too, where very small parcels of base (“deeded”) private property called “ranches” are allowed to have vast public land grazing allotments.

    It should noted too that, of course, there are some small grazing permits

  18. avatar Todd Ringler says:

    There are some small allotments in the Gila as well, but ~3 million acres of public grazing divided into 135 allotments gives an average allotment size of 20,000 acres — which matches what I see on my grazing list.

    It should be noted that real estate agents sell these “ranches” as if the allotment is part of the purchase. For example (these are listings from a real estate page)

    Canon del Buey Ranch
    Aragon, New Mexico
    40,000 acres

    but only 40 acres are private (yet the price $1,500,000 — which works out to about $360 per AUM)

    or

    Y Canyon Ranch
    Catron County, NM
    52,757 acres

    but, again, only 40 acres are private (again asking 1.5M)

    Public lands grazing is a privilege — something we need make get across to the general public in a more effective way.

    Todd

  19. avatar jerry b says:

    Todd….tried emailing you at ..todd.ringler@mac.com
    It was returned…wrong email address??

  20. avatar Todd Ringler says:

    The email address is correct ( todd.ringler@mac.com )

  21. avatar Chris H. says:

    mikarooni is right. We wet down to the Gila and Apache-Sitgreaves shortly after the initial release of Mexican Wolves. We were never threatened directly. However, even the folks at the USFS office in Springerville either rolled their eyes or gave us a stern look when we asked about the wolves. In Reserve, NM, it would probably be best not to talk about the subject at all. To me, it appeared like a hunting base camp more than a town. We lived in rural Northern Arizona so I do have some perspective on that “culture”
    The ranchers and hunters are in the minority even there but they have a stranglehold on the local, and to to some degree, regional political infrastructure. More importantly they have managed to take control of the reintroduction program. In essance, they are killing the program slowly so that the feds will come to the conclusion that the program is a failure and cut funding. Of course, given the current state of federal administration under the “shrub”,
    this is not hard to do. Indeed, they are complicit.
    We tried fighting the renewal of some of the grazing allotments in that are, and that may be the way to go but it would take an incredible amount of time and work and even then it is unlikely that they will pull a grazing permit.
    This is why Richardson, the Governor, only gives lip service to the problem. You would think he would be able to go down there and tell those folks they are WAY out of line.

  22. avatar Mack P. Bray says:

    Todd, I had no idea grazing was permitted year-round on the Gila – 135 grazing allotments in Gila National Forest covering almost the entire 3.3 million acres – that is sick.

    Todd wrote: “Public lands grazing is a privilege — something we need make get across to the general public in a more effective way.” And so many livestock producers think they have a “right” to graze when all they actually have is the privilege.

    I once spoke with then Chief or Deputy of Grazing, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Joel Holtrop. He said something to the effect of “If we buy out or trade a permittee we are stepping onto a slippery slope of acknowledging there is a value and if we pay or trade to induce them to give up, we have acknowledged that it was a right. It is OUR call as to whether they’re going to be allowed to graze or not.” He also said “Regarding options: to not renew is the best option; second best – cancel for cause.” He also told me that a forest supervisor, at HIS/HER discretion, could cancel a grazing permit AT ANY TIME, WITHOUT CAUSE.

    Ralph wrote “The Catron County area has been dangerous for a long time, which threats and assaults on federal land management officers, local conservationists, violation of grazing, ESA and other public land laws.”

    A friend of mine in X, New Mexico, assures me that Espanola is the “Heroin Capital” of the United States.

    Sounds like Governor Richardson should forget the Presidency and stay at home and clean up the CRAP in his state.

    What’s the Attorney General of New Mexico like? Cajones or no cajones?

  23. avatar cred says:

    Mikarooni – you know nothing about “down here” in Catron County. To say that we are dangerous people, that it is dangerous for outsiders to walk around here, is the worst kind of defamation of people you know nothing about. You should be embarrassed to post such ignorant comments.

    Chris H: FYI, Springerville USFS has nothing to do with the Gila National Forest. People in Reserve are fine to talk with about wolves or any subject. They are polite, but they are also firm in wishing outsiders to know what the realities are of living with wolves in this area – not the fictions that non-locals want to believe.

    Ranchers and hunters would fall down laughing to think they even have a say in the wolf program, much less have control of it.

    Mack P Bray: I doubt very strongly that any forest supervisor would believe that he/she could cancel a grazing permit without valid cause. Each permit undergoes NEPA review regularly, because last I heard, we still are in the USA and have laws that have to be followed, regardless of what the Holtrop or anyone says.

    As for Mr. Maughan – you appear to be another person who maligns people from the safety of far away. Catron County is not dangerous, the threats you refer to occurred 15 years ago and were about timbering, not wolves. Today locals work closely and well with USFS on many issues, particularly forest restoration. Local conservationists (who actually know what the needs of the environment are as opposed to those who “know” it second-hand) speak openly and freely about their beliefs. Many local ranchers work with conservation groups to improve their land.

    It is absolutely shameful, and actually kind of scary, to read the misinformation you all banter about so freely. You are writing about my home and you are so far off the mark about what it is like here that it would be funny if it wasn’t so creepy. I dare say you would feel the same as I do if total strangers who count a couple visits as some sort of expertise were to start making pronouncements about where you live.

  24. avatar skyrim says:

    cred, for clarification; are you the administrator of the web-site you provide a link to?
    Thanks

  25. avatar Chris H. says:

    cred,
    I know that Springerville is in Arizona. Actually it does have an impact on the Gila because it is in the primary recovery area – all Gila wolves pass through the Apache -Sitgreaves first before they come and terrorize your state. If you read my post it states that a MINORITY of the people have control. I’m sure most of the folks are quite amiable – I even know some of them.
    By the way, I am not an outsider. Although I do not live there now, I, as I posted, lived in rural Northern Arizona. Moreover, 70% of the local land there belongs to the American people. Therefore the people on this post are insiders too! I am sick of you and your ilk telling me and my ilk that I can’t possibly fathom a situation unless I live in the house next door.

  26. avatar catbestland says:

    Cred,
    In your posts on Wild Again’s “Forest Service Rubberstamp grazing…” You wrote…

    “Cows are of a species that pre-dates the reintroduced Mexican wolves. Cattle grazing on the Gila pre-dates the existence of the Gila as a National Forest, pre-dates the existence of the ESA and the US Forest Service.

    Some people question the existence of Mexican wolves as anything other than an artificially created species which has only appeared on the planet in the past few decades.”

    Do you suppose that the ESA and the Forest Service stepped in to protect the Gila from further destruction from overgrazing by those cattle you refer to, and to protect endangered species there? The presence of Mexican wolves in the Gila certainly does predate the use of the Gila for cattle grazing.
    As far as some people questioning Mexican wolves as anything other than an artificially created species, which has only appeared on the planet in the past few decades. This is rediculous. Mexican gray wolves were present in Mexico and the Soutwesternhern US for thousands of years. Perhaps people in your area should actually do some research into the historical biodiversity of the area before making such uninformed statements. Some people question the Holocaust Does this mean we should give credence to their stupidity. Of course not. If the folks of Catron County and areas nearby have nothing to hide, they would invite the inspection of Federal Wildlife and Forest Service agents and the locals would not have developed a reputation for being so hostile. After all sunlight is the best dissinfectant.

    What explanation might you have for the disappearance of those wolves?

  27. avatar Jim says:

    cred, I just read the latest post on your blog. Wolves who have never had contact with humans are not shy to them. Wolves are only “shy”, or afraid, of people oncethey have had contact with them. And that is because most humans have killed wolves for no reason other than jealousy of wolves natural superiority to humans.

  28. avatar catbestland says:

    Cred,

    On your website you demand that wolves that have been in captivity should NOT be released in the Gila Forest because of the chance that they may be habituated to humans and therefore problematic. However you fail to consider that according to the US Fish and Wildlife Service official website that states in part ” by the 1970 s the Mexican wolf had been all but eliminated in the United States AND MEXICO.” and that “It was only in the Southwest where wolves had been so thoroughly eliminated that a source population of wild, free ranging animals, from which to build a recovery program, did not exist, that a captive breeding and reintroduction program was necessary.”

    So in essence you are saying, “Since there are no wild wolves to capture and release, whether from Mexico or the US, that none should be released at all.” If this is not what you are implying, and considering the fact that no Mexican Grey wolves exist in the wild, from where do you propose the “wild wolves” be captured for the program? Or is the nonexistance of these wolves a fact that you do not wish readers of your site to be aware of?

  29. avatar mikarooni says:

    I stand by what I said and I do know what I’m talking about. the truth is that I “predate” Cred.

  30. avatar Greg Farber says:

    This is the deception only blog, gotcha

  31. avatar catbestland says:

    Sorry Greg, this is the information only blog. You must be confused with Cred’s blog.

  32. avatar Greg Farber says:

    I put a very positive reply up here prior to that remark above, and it was deleted, The title to this blog should say Honesty and integrity go missing in America, and Ralph Maughan dosent support the 1st Amendment.

  33. avatar skyrim says:

    Comments are moderated only to insure that it doesn’t become a flame fest. I’ve been deleted a time or 2 and know now that is was called for.

  34. avatar JB says:

    I’ll stay clear of the name calling, but would like to clarify one point:

    Jim said: “…Wolves who have never had contact with humans are not shy to them. Wolves are only “shy”, or afraid, of people once they have had contact with them.”

    Actually wolves, like all wild canids, are “naturally” afraid of people. In fact, they are weary of any new object in their environment–though this varies from critter to critter. Wolves, coyotes, and other wild canids tend to initially avoid novel objects–this is called neophobia (or fear of the new). If, after repeated exposure there are no negative stimuli associated with the object then they may investigate or ignore the object. If there are positive stimuli associated with exposure, then they may seek out that object (e.g. dump).

    —-
    FYI: This is not my area of expertise; however, I worked for a summer on an experiment on captive coyotes in which we found that, even when covered in a lure, coyotes were very wary in approaching a 30-ml plastic bottle. Imagine how much more intimidating people are!

  35. Yes, Greg. You are new and welcome to comment. I delete posts that are personally hostile or otherwise go beyond the pale.

    When the comments have degenerated is my decision. Since I started doing this, readership has increased by about a thousand hits a day.

    It should be noted that the First Amendment applies to the suppression or censorship of speech by the government. No private publication, printed or electronic, is bound by it.

    Webmaster

  36. avatar Greg Farber says:

    Well hopefully we will find out where the three wolves went in the gila. Did a hunter cheat? Did a resident snap? Did FWS move them and has chosen to not tell us? Did the wolves head out to a better hunt, doubtful I know, but evidence would be nice, when the chips fall then demonize, until then preconcieved guilt of a community is wrong.

    Never been to Creds place. Im for wolves, Im also for management by Idaho of them. I personally do not want to shoot one, I hunt, but if Im not eating it, Im not killing it, unless of course they want me or my horse, then we will have us a go round.

    You guys may not like this idea, but I hate shooting Coyotes, so over the years Ive shot at them with a well placed shot so as not to hurt them, thus when other fella’s are out there, the dog hides, I like to call it training. If its rocky then I dont. I like to think the dog will live longer.

  37. avatar Adam says:

    I cannot believe how easily you all go after the people of Catron County and even refer to them as something out of the movie “Deliverence,” without knowing anything about them. That would be like me saying everyone that lives on either the west or east coast of the US is a Democrat and an environmentalist.
    You all can read headlines and newspapers, great, but we all know that is the most corrupt and construed type of news there is. If you are so worried about a species that cannot survive on its own because it is being raised, hand fed, and cared for like house pets by humans then go out to the Gila National Forest and talk to some of these ranchers that live day in and day out with them.
    Do you know how many cattle have been killed by the wolves in the GNF? You may say, “it doesn’t matter because the ranchers get reimbursed,” well not if you have been against the program from the start. Even if you have a confirmed kill by a wolf it is extremely difficult to get the reimbursement. Ask the owner of the Adobe Ranch, he just had to sue to finally get reimbursed for over 20 calves confirmed killed by wolves. That’s over $16,000 he would never have gotten unless he sued. This is more than a bussiness, it is a livelihood. They have been ranching in these areas since the 1800’s.
    Do you know why there is not enough people out there in the field working on this program? Because most of the biologists that come down here to work on it realize what a poor operation is being run with poor guidelines and even worse management. They switch programs quick in hopes of making a difference for endangered species instead of ruining peoples lives. There are so few people out there that the ranchers themselves are having to trap the wolves for the biologists if they want them out of there. And these are repeat confirmed calf killers!
    I think the ranchers should be reimbursed for any livestock that even remotely looks like it was killed by a wolf; payed for all this work they are doing for the federal governement Wolf reintroduction program; and have the ability to shoot near wolves that are too close to their herds. The wolves are not scared of humans and actually prefer the easy pickings of livestock.

    The “elusive” wolf does not exist when man has a hand in the survival of it.

  38. avatar meadow says:

    The owner of the Adobe Ranch is an absentee multi multi bazillionaire from Mexico. To paint him like some hardscrabble cowboy is ridiculous. He, like so many ranch owners, has this ranch to create monetary losses to offset taxable gains elsewhere. You’d think he’d be thrilled to have ALL the cows killed by wolves. Just think of the tax write off then.
    The wolf saga is about who controlls public land. Right now, its the cowboys. but having wolves represents a crack in their so-called supremacy.

  39. avatar Rick says:

    What people forget, is there is no wild left in this country. If this wolf reintroduction, in the Gila, is to work, someone is going to have to remove every person from Greenlee, Grant, Hildago, Catron, and Sierra Counties.

  40. Rick,

    Wolves don’t need especially wild country to survive and prosper, although it is true I have heard for years that the Gila and Aldo Leopold Wilderness areas in New Mexico are overrun with cattle.

    I have never visited them.

    People and wolves are not in conflict, but wolves the people who leave dead livestock carcasses around are.

  41. avatar Jeff N. says:

    I’ve visited the Gila and Blue Range Wilderness in New Mexico and the Blue Range Primitive Area in Arizona on numerous occasions (never been to the Aldo Leopold). The total wilderness acreage of the Gila, Blue, and Aldo Leopold is somewhere around 850,000 acres. This does not include the national forests lands that surround these wilderness areas in both NM and AZ. This is wild country that can support wolves. The prey base is there. In Arizona most of the wolves live in the heavily roaded national forest lands. The differnce between AZ and NM is that NM allows for year round livestock grazing. Another difference is that the people that live in the wolf recovery area in NM live in a perpetual state of self imposed terror and hysteria regarding wolves, whereas the people in the AZ recovery tend to be a little more tolerant of the situation. I’m not saying it’s perfect but there is less hysteria regarding the Mexican Gray Wolf in AZ.

  42. avatar Rick says:

    The biggest lie about preditors is “predators take the weak and sick” This is propaganda to make any preditor sound benificial. The truth is preditors take the easist. If there are no weak, or sick, a nice fat juicy cow is game. A cow is easier than a elk. If no cattle, then we are going to see humans on the menu. Most likly kids, they are easier than an adult. One wolf is like one dog, a pack of wolves, or a pack of dogs and you have a problem. Just ask the game dept. how many dogs they shoot each year attacking game animals.

  43. If wolves preferred cows to elk, there would thousands of dead cows in Idaho alone last year instead of 23 counted dead (mostly calves).

    Cows are the easiest large animal to find where most wolves live. That fact that they kill many more elk and deer than cows is not because they can’t find the cows or that cows are easy to kill.

    I wonder why the game dept doesn’t take and publicize an annual tally of livestock killed by dogs each year like they do wolves. The comparison would be interesting.

    As far as children, none have been taken despite many predictions that it would happen, starting with Montana Senator Conrad Burns (now retired 😉 ) way back in Dec. 1994.

  44. avatar Adam says:

    I’ve heard Arizona gets the good wolves that are doing what they are supposed to (kill wild game) while New Mexico gets the problem wolves over and over again. Something about it is in the initial proposal having to do with AZ being the first site for reintroduction and NM being the second.
    The Luna pack in the Gila just harrassed a group of elk hunters all night long trying to get to their horses, they had to stay up all night throwing rocks and sticks while building up their fire. They hiked out the next day because it wasn’t worth it and ran in to a group of hikers on the same trail. They told them to watch out for the pack of wolves but they went anyway. Well they spent the whole next day in a tree because the pack chased them up it and wouldn’t leave them.

  45. avatar robert says:

    This is to Adam. I like your story. You should make it into a book and later, maybe they can make a goofy movie about it, cause that’s what it sounds like to me! LOL! Keep smiling, wolves are where it’s at, the Mexican Grey is here to stay, dispite of all. I go out to Arizona and into New Mexico all the time. As matter of fact I live out there in the summer. I’ve talked to people on both sides of the fence, pros and cons as in anything else. Yes I do believe the people in Arizona are more tolerant of the program. I’ve never had anyone roll there eyes to me when I ask questions about the wolves in Arizona. And they do tell me where to go to see if I can see them, and where they have been hanging out. If you want to find out where the wolves hang out, ask a rancher. I know they have there feelings about the issue, but you don’t get into arguments about it, Just patronize them nicelly and they go about there business. There’ no need in faulting everyone about the failure of the wolf program. Only time will tell how it will turn out. If you want to help the issue, just enjoy them while you can. I too, would like to see them flourish. And they might. Let nature and the peolpe envolved take it’s course and hope for the best. I’ve been fortunate enough to see the wolve on both sides of the fence, and partly because I have friends that work in the field. I’ve seen how hard they work trying to keep the program from going under. Don’t belittle on less you really know whats on the table. Some of those peolpe at the ADGF are my friend and they are totally committed to the cause. Give them and all others working on the project a hand of applause. That goes for everyone else that talks bad about all the issues. Good luck to all of you, hope I see you out in the Gila or in Arizona some day, maye I can show some good places to see the wolves. Maybe when you see them and see how well they’re doing with out intervention, then maybe you’ll see it from a different perspective. I know I’m going to get lot’s of feed back on this, but that’s ok, I’ve seen them and you haven’t, Happy howling! Robert from New Mexico

  46. avatar jerry b says:

    Robert…your quotes: “wolves are where it’s at, the Mexican grey(gray) is here to stay, despite all.
    “There’s no need in faulting everyone about the failure of the wolf program”
    “Only time will tell how it will turn out. If you want to help the issue, just enjoy them while you can”
    “Let nature and the people involved take its course and hope for the best”
    I’m confused. Please help me out. “What’s on the table”???

  47. avatar robert says:

    Jerry. I’m not trying to confuse. I’m just sayiny that the Mexican Grey Wolf program will be fine. It might not ever be as succesful as the re-intro project of Yellowstone, but it will prevail. I fill that there are to many people complaining, as is are nature, that the ranchers and that the government will be the down fall of the project. All I ever read is negative stuff about what’s going on. Not only in the news and other sources, and yes granted there are some things going on that I disagree with like everybody else,only because we’re concerned about the well being of the wolves, as am. Sometimes my feelings about the project is that we’re doing more harm to the wolves than helping them, but at the same time I’m happy to get the chance to see them in there natural behaviour because they have been released. And if the project is a failure I’ll cherish the memeories I had of seeing them and carry it on to my grand kids. Sounds familiar? There’s nothing on the table cause this isn’t a bargaining issue. I’m pro wolf and an advocate for all wildlife survival, but I don’t let the issues get to me. I understand everyones perspective and wish all well about it. But me, I continue to enjoy there presence when ever I can and go to the next page hopeing it’s as good as the pevious one. I hope you understood where I come from. Again, Happy howling, by the way have you heard them howl yet? It’s awesome, Robert

  48. avatar Barb says:

    I love this quote —

    “The root problem in the relationship between humans and Nature is our pathological drive to domesticate the land and to destroy those wild animals that do not accept our overlordship.

    Michael Robinson’s thorough history of our war against the wolf in the West is an insightful, eloquent, humble, and much needed study of that sickness. Predatory Bureaucracy is deep and wise.”

    – Dave Foreman, president of The Rewildling Institute.

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Quote

‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."

~ Edward Abbey

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