Wolf fan wants Wyoming boycott. By Brett French. Billings Gazette Staff.

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About The Author

Ralph Maughan

Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University with specialties in natural resource politics, public opinion, interest groups, political parties, voting and elections. Aside from academic publications, he is author or co-author of three hiking/backpacking guides, and he is President of the Western Watersheds Project.

74 Responses to Wolf fan wants Wyoming boycott

  1. avatar YNP4me says:

    Well, even I woke up to a surprise today!
    I think this is the first time I’ve ever been called a
    wolf fan. I did chuckle when I saw that.

    As most people who have read anything I’ve posted
    in the last 9 years know… I am not a wolf watcher.
    I do not go to Yellowstone to specifically watch wolves.
    If I see one, I see one. That said, I do support wolves
    being re-introduced and being in the GYE. Some
    wolf watching activity annoys me. It has been
    documented at Y Net that I did not like seeing the use
    and wear of “the hill” as a wolf watching stage.

    As with all media, they take what they want to
    steer their story. I should know, it’s not my first
    time in a newspaper (I’ve also been on TV, on
    the radio and so on over the years on many
    different political issues).

    My concern at 2:59 am when I posted that list to Y Net
    was due to the nature of the killings. So called
    “hunters” LEAVING the wolves on the ground to rot.
    What about hunting ethics? Under the Wyoming policy,
    wolves can be poisoned and aerial shot. How could
    Wyoming allow such a policy?

    So, for the record, that is my issue with it is. When I
    have an issue with something, I’m more than happy
    to provide ways for anyone else to complain and protest
    as much as they want. I love bringing awareness
    to anything that warrants it.

    I clearly suggest that one can still go to Yellowstone
    which is obviously mostly in Wyoming. I suggested
    ways to curb how much $$$ money ends up
    benefitting Wyoming.

    I’d like to point out also that I have not used the
    word boycott anywhere. That credit should be given
    to Flying Scotsman – see his thread on Boycott or
    patronize, your choice at Yellowstone.net.

    My original post on Y Net (page #13 of the Wolf
    Delisting thread) and on Ralph’s Blog specifically
    says…

    Send letters, make calls, etc of any complaints
    about the Wyoming Wolf Killings.

    I was contacted by Brett French via email. We played
    2 days of phone tag and we never ended up speaking.
    In all fairness, I don’t know where he got the idea to
    contact me. Maybe it’s because he made the list! LOL

    Here is what I sent Billings Gazette sports writer Brett
    French via email on WEDNESDAY April 2nd in regards
    to his email to me….

    Hi Brett!

    I’m not sure who passed my email address to you
    but here’s the scoop.

    People from every state are clearly looking at Wyoming’s
    wolf policy unfavorably, which basically, is allowing the
    wanton killing of wolves. Idaho’s policy is not much
    better than Wyoming’s.

    People have less issue with lethal control of wolves
    (gov. officials following guidelines when there IS an
    issue) vs. random people killing wolves and leaving
    the carcasses to rot as was the case in WY last
    weekend. Hunting ethics don’t apply to wolves killed
    in Daniel, WY? It’s my opinion that most hunters
    don’t appreciate wanton killing and animals left for
    dead. Most hunters have ethics.

    It is also unsettling that in 1996, just at the beginning
    of the Yellowstone wolf introduction, Yellowstone
    wolf R-12 was shot and left for dead in Daniel, WY.
    Wolf R-12’s killer has never been caught.
    Here we are, in 2008 at the beginning of the
    wolf delisting, and Daniel, WY has shot the first
    Yellowstone Wolf under the delisting – collared
    wolf 253.

    Wyoming is allowing aerial gunning. Wyoming is
    allowing poisoning of wolves in the designated
    predatory animal areas. That is outrageous.

    I support putting pressure on the #2 industry in
    Wyoming… tourism. I’m not sure where agriculture
    is on that list but it’s not #1. I suggest people
    write letters, call the local WY agencies and let
    your voices be heard, choose the option of not
    spending money in Yellowstone or WY while
    still being able to see the park – it can be done –
    you simply stay in Montana, get gas in Montana
    and buy Yellowstone trinkets in the Montana
    gateway towns. : ) Yellowstone had over 3.1
    million visitors, a chunk of those million support
    seeing wolves back in Yellowstone.

    It’s always good to remember that Yellowstone
    was a National Park with wolves before Wyoming
    was a state. I’m quite sure that Yellowstone had
    wolves before cows and sheep were introduced
    to Wyoming.

    Stop wanton killing of wolves and ask wolf hunters
    this weekend to think about ethics and not
    bragging rights.

    One more thing- I also support seeking out Montana
    businesses in Gardiner, Cooke City, Silver Gate, and
    West Yellowstone that support wolves in the Greater
    Yellowstone Ecosystem and utilizing a way to identify
    them to give them business.

    You may also wish to read the following thread at
    Yellowstone.net on Delisting Wolves
    page #13
    http://www.yellowstone.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17968&start=600

    and at Ralph Maughan’s Wolf / Wildlife Blog
    the thread where Ralph posted the
    Contacting People thread
    http://wolves.wordpress.com/2008/04/02/contacting-info
    and this thread where others seek to
    make changes and not spend $$ in WY.
    http://wolves.wordpress.com/2008/04/01/wolf-253m-brutally-gunned-down-for-fun-near-daniel-wyoming

    ~ Vicky

  2. avatar steve c says:

    Giving business to Montana is also very difficult in light of the bison situation. Pick your poison!

  3. avatar Save bears says:

    If the Federal Government would actually implement the plan that was signed in 2000 and pony up to the table like they said they would, we could have less bison slaughter, and perhaps work forward to game management, instead of livestock management!

  4. avatar Catbestland says:

    The comments after that article are unbelieveable. I wonder if these people have any idea how uneducated and barbaric they appear to the rest of the world.

  5. avatar Heather says:

    Especially that tourism increased in those states that tried to boycott aerial killings of wolves. Wonderful.

  6. They haven’t adjusted to the Internet.

    I think the Internet has played a little-discussed beneficial role in the success of the wolf restoration so far, and in many other issues involving the natural outdoors.

    Its positive influence is partly hidden because the forces of George W. Bush and backward thinking politicians have had to dealt with at the same time.

  7. avatar Heather says:

    Does anyone know where the original key people that reintroduced the wolf to GYE/ID are now?? (here on this blog??)

  8. avatar vicki says:

    I personally spend about 2000 dollars each time I go to YNP. I plan two trips this year. I won’t put gas in my car in Wyoming, I will not stay in Wyoming, I will not eat or shop in Wyoming.
    If you do the math… Wyoming is scre@^&. It could be very effective… but only if we tell a friend.
    I can say that I will also skip Laramie’s businesses every weekend when I go through. That is about 100 dollars a week for about 14 weeks.
    Right idea, Vickie. Keep it up!!!!

    Cat,
    They did sound like absolute losers. Does anyone know what the average IQ of Wyoming residenst is? I think you should take off points for wolf watchers, they seem to be the only one’s with brains. Wait…can IQ points be refelcted in negative numbers?

    I don’t get quite this ticked often…

  9. avatar Save bears says:

    Well if your going to boycott Wyoming, then why, are you still visiting the park? The people that will suffer are those small town working people, that for the most part, could really care about wolves…this is silly…I can’t believe people could be so shallow, that they actually think, something that is so small could make a difference, how big a lobbying group do you really think we are..95% of America don’t think about wolves, bears, bison or elk, etc except when they are actually in the environment where they have the possibility to see them..I hate Wyoming’s Plan, but I also know after so many years in the Bison issue, that boycotting the state of Wyoming is NOT going to do a damn thing, it didn’t when we started the boycott in Montana so many years ago, really thing about it….How many actually KNOW and understand that Bison are being killed in Montana, go to any town in America outside the 3 state area and stand on the street corner and ask..Do the things that will actually make a difference, write call, and bitch to those who can actually do something! 3 million + or – visit Yellowstone every single year, many of them from over seas…how are you going to effectively mount this campaign?

    Spend your money elsewhere, that is your prerogative, but please don’t think your doing a damn thing to change what is and will continue to happen..get real folks..

  10. avatar izabelam says:

    All,
    the responses in Billings Gazzette come from morons and barbarians who have no clue what they are talking about.
    Lets not waste time to talk to them.

    And yes, boycott WY, MT and ID.
    Maybe bumper stickers will help.. …I buy one..:)
    I know people read bumper stickers.

  11. avatar Save bears says:

    Boycott, WY, MT and ID, why Montana, we actually have a plan in place that is so far a head…if your talking about Bison, if the damn Fed’s would do what they say they were going to do, we would be in a completely different position today about Bison..Who reads bumper stickers, the average American keeps their car less than 18 months now a days, and forget what the heck they put on their bumper…

    To change these situations is going to take legislative action, both federal as well as at the state level..there is already noise being made by the dopes on the other side, saying good, I will buy and extra meal at the local diner each week to combat this so called boycott..

    Folks work SMART and not ANGRY and we can make a difference, knee jerk reactions are NOT going to stop this…

  12. avatar vicki says:

    Save Bears,
    Obviously Wyoming doesn’t care about it’s small businesses then. It will have an impact on them, you are right. Maybe the lost revenue in tax dollars for a state that has less tax revenue anyhow won’t go un-noticed.
    Economics are a huge deal. Right now gas is expected to reach 4.00 dollars a gallon. That will be even higher in the YNP gate communities.
    The more people spend on gas the less they spend on souvenirs… so if tourists boycott Wyoming, imagine what the already high gas prices combined with the loss of tourist revenue will be like for small business.
    Now imagine how that will weigh on the over all economy of the state. It is a trickle down effect.
    It may be of little consequence, but the opinions of anyone who travels to Wyoming as a tourist seem of little consequence anyhow. So what? A state with no compasion for it’s visitors of it’s wildlife is hardly worthy of he monies I would have spent there.

  13. avatar vicki says:

    I agree with Save Bears that we need legislation. But who in Wyoming will vote for a change there, on the state level? I say small businessmen might when they see their income shrinking.

  14. avatar Save bears says:

    Vicki,

    do what you must, but please don’t think it will do anything, I feel if your going to mount a boycott, then why exclude the park, the park has endorsed the destruction of Bison for many years now, what is so much different about the destruction of Wolves? Unfortunately, after the experiences I have had, the trickle down effect is very benign when it comes to these issue, the have killed close to 1400 bison this year and no one is calling for a boycott, now 6 wolves have been killed and people are calling for a boycott, silly to me, elect those legislators that will do something, don’t make the small business or the underpaid employee suffer because the bull headed wild west mentality..do something that will actually matter…

  15. avatar vicki says:

    I am. I am also now up to 20 teens who are planning a trip to YNP this year. I hope to get to 40. We will be doing something news worthy…for bison. Trust me Save Bears, I throw my support at all of the animals in jeopardy.
    What else would you suggest? If you have a better idea, I am all ears.

  16. avatar Save bears says:

    Glad to hear it Vicki,

    At this point in time, I don’t know what else will work, other than getting those OUT of office that continue to not listen.

    I hope you and the kids have a great time, and can accomplish at least some awareness.

  17. avatar Catbestland says:

    I’m sending this maesage to everyone on my e-mail list and to all of my relatives back east and begging them to please pay attention to the wolf and bison issues. I made my son promise to send it to all of his rebellious friends. You’d be surprised what a little networking can do. I bring it up to all of my business associates as well. At least they will hear it.

  18. avatar vicki says:

    Save Bears,
    thanks, I hope we do too.

    Cat,
    Sadly it may be the only way some of them might have ever heard about any of it.
    This nation that boasts so much awareness and education is lacking in it’s intellegent handling of such situations.

    Keep on networking. Those rebellious kids are the most ambitious type I know of…give them my best!

  19. avatar Mack P. Bray says:

    John, excellent letter you wrote to the Salt Lake Tribune. Keep writing – never stop…!

  20. avatar Catbestland says:

    This is a comment from the article.

    Andy said 17 hours ago
    To catbestland: You would be well advised to change your reservations for a Californica destination. As to the list of businesses (and people) to stay away from, get a local phone book…most of the listings you find will qualify. Most of us around Montana and Wyoming have a desire to shoot on sight!

    Thiis sounds like a threat to me.

  21. avatar Save bears says:

    “Shoot on sight” I would imagine refers to “Shoot Wolves on Sight” no people….if you feel it was a personal threat, then send a note to the newspaper, electronic as well as written threats are taken very serious in Montana…believe I have been threatened and they were prosecuted.

  22. avatar Catbestland says:

    We were discussing the boycott of Wyoming businesses, not the properness of “the desire to shoot on sight.”

  23. avatar Robert Hoskins says:

    I have to agree with Save Bears. Boycotting Wyoming won’t do much good, and it could hurt people like me. I work a few pack trips each summer, during which I teach people about natural history and conservation issues. Backcountry trips too give people an opportunity to see wolves in the backcountry, which is way different from seeing them while parked on the highway in the Lamar with hundreds of other people.

    What is needed is concerted political action at the National level to overturn really stupid and politically driven decisions at the State level.

  24. avatar Rick Hammel says:

    Robert,

    In order to execute any concerted political action at the National level, we must first clean the National house. We are where wew are today because of the way the National level conducted itself. Any ideas in how to assure the American public that we can accomplish this agenda?

    Rick

  25. avatar HAL 9000 says:

    My favorite strident anti-wolf argument is the hysterical urban myth that these are ultra-destructive, hyper-aggressive, uber-sized hybrid Canadian super-wolves. Not a thread regarding wolves in the Gazette goes by without that being brought up at least five times.

    My question is — other than the gargantuan size and pile of half-eaten elk calves at the beast’s feet — how does one tell a Canadian super-wolf from a regular old wolf? Does every howl, growl, whine or bark of the killers from the Great White North end with an “eh?”

  26. avatar vicki says:

    Rick,
    Perhaps you know of wolf friendly businesses we could, instead of boycotting, spend our money on intsead?
    You are right about the type of change we need, but first, law makers need to see that change is necessary. Right now the only people they are concerned with are ranchers and oil interests… so what would get their attention?

    I’ve been reading news paper comments lately, the majority of those posting are hateful and despise wolves…and tourists it would seem. I don’t see these uneducated type of people voting for the scientifically correct thing.

  27. To Hal 9000. You´ll never get rid of that stereotypes used by the readers of the Billings Gazette. Seems they have text templates stored on their harddisks to click on every time “wolf” appears in an article of the Gazette. You will rarely find a similar low “niveau” of comments somewhere else on the web or in print. I do not know where the owners of the comments are geographically located but if NM has it´s crazy corner, Montana / Wyoming sure have their own. I´m not sure if one should simply ignore this or continue to fight back just to create some balance. Sometimes it´s tiring and frustrating!

  28. avatar jimbob says:

    Personally I hate boycotts for the reason that Save Bears gave–small business people are the ones hurt. They are residents, voters, and tax payers, though, and need to step up! It would be their ire that would cause politicians to change. The boycott ends up working either way, so people are trying what works to influence policy. I happen to know even your governor of Wyoming doesn’t answer letters from out of state. If he doesn’t care about my business…..I’ll take it elsewhere. Believe me, Montana and Idaho could be next!

  29. avatar Susan Rediger-Blackburn says:

    I live in Wy in the CORA/PINEDALE area. You can boycott all you want but this area really doesnt survive on your dollar. Maybe if you are coming 80 but then I garuntee you will fill up in WY. How about a different route. Just a suggestion. Pick some weekends or weekday and protest and if you mintuemen the KILL ZONE. Make orange vest, put your heart and words out there. I would be the first to sign-up. If you notice I do use my name and dare any local to a good friendly discussion but I refuse to tell them how wrong they are and how right I am. I think thats were we are now in alot of issues in the free country. So which one of YOU want to start the weekender!

  30. avatar kim kaiser says:

    believe it not, all areas survive on touirst dollar,,, its called taxes, and your state collects them at every pump, every store, every where a tourist spends a buck.. and that comes to you in the form of roads, govt services, (which yall apparently are getting alot of these days in your wolf control prorgram budget) so it is naive and just plain foolish to think you dont benefit on tourist money,, go back to economics 101 in your high school books and refresh your memory,,,,

  31. avatar Susan Rediger-Blackburn says:

    No kidding! Have you ever spent anytime in this part of WY ? We have a love of nature that compares to few. It is the lack of action that upsets me. You want a boycott. Why not action. Example: the Torch Run. When was the last time anyone thought of Tibet? I feel that putting words to action is better then some none physical show of support for your cause goes much further e.g. Bike ride for MS, Breast CA 3day event. Why do people resort to put down comments e.g. “go back to your high school books….” Back about 7years ago every time their was a wolf sighting in the area a certain report would print it. Calling for all against these beast to go find them!!! Then someone on this same website suggested that us no harmer’s also go and setup our spotting scopes and watch the watching. Guess what nothing happened. Yes nothing happened. Maybe the radicals from one side was a bit intimated. Those were goods day action not insults. PS I have advanced Nursing Degree. Ran a OR in Chicago before I moved here. So keep your hidden insults too yourself. Maybe even sit down with a Rancher and listen. They too are good people. Why is it YALL is how you think we act, talk or live. Please stop the slams!! They just build taller walls. What a shame haven’t we seen that this line of personal attacks DONT WORK. Please God bless the good in all mankind and the teachers please keep teaching the mislead..

  32. avatar Susan Rediger-Blackburn says:

    Hello Vicki, Just FYI. I do believe the first wolf kill was in Montana. That man did or is doing time with a fine. I would give you his name but you can find it easy enough. Not all bad starts in the Cora/Daniel WY area. PS he was turned in by his own locals. Put the blinders down and work with not against us.

  33. Well, Sublette County’s economy is now natural gas. They are hundreds of billions of dollars underground, but being exploited at a furious rate.

    I don’t think a boycott of Wyoming would work. The only possibility is Cody.

    I don’t go to Sublette County anymore because it see it as a place that has been ruined by the gas industry.

  34. avatar vicki says:

    Susan,
    I am not naive enough to believe that no harm will ever befall a wolf at the hand of an ingnorant individual. I am opposed to a government entity having a policy of mass destruction for managing wolves. That is the categroy that Wyoming’s wolf management falls under, in my book.
    I have pumped a good chunk of income into Wyoming every year for the past 12 years. As a tourist I have spent (I just figured it out last night) an average of about 3200 dollars a year in Wyoming. I have only spent about 300 a year in Montana. (this is probably because I live in Colorado, and travel mainly through Wyoming, including weekend drives to North Park through the Snowy Range area.)

    I have watched, since before 1995, as a path of disregard has been walked by Wyoming’s government, in it’s regard to actual public opinion. They have repeatedly bowed down and kissed the feet of the ranching and energy industry.
    Time and time again, we have seen them slap their own citizens (like yourself) in the face, and place the wants of those brave enough to make a stand to the way side.
    Working with you is a nice sentiment, but until enough wolf friendly Wyoming folk stand up, the only way to be heard is to effect the state’s bottom line.

    For boycotts being so non-effective, we have sure received a lot of hateful comments and out-cries against and about having one. Perhaps now is the time, and this is what it will take, for all of the tourist friendly businesses to actually band together. Thus far, I have heard that these people are the majority. I have only seen Wyoming’s government effected by a small, yet rich minority then.

    It doesn’t take much money to have Wyoming tourist businesses and those who would be most impacted by a boycott, to begin a phone tree, call eachother, make a plan, and stand up for what is right economically and ethically.
    You tell me, as I said before, I am all ears…how and what else should we non-Wyoming residents do? Wyoming doesn’t even listen to it’s own residents, let alone us “greenies, tree-huggers, bunny lovers, etc.”.

    So far, attempts to effect the blind eye that Wyoming is being controlled by have had a small effect. It seems the larger effect has been from maneur(sp?) and oil covered dollars. My “green” money is of little consequence, maybe now it might be of more.

    I have chosen not to give any tax revenue to a state that doesn’t recognize my opinion. I hope the state would review it’s policies and change before long. It is my personal choice, and comes with my personal sacrafice too. I admire and applaud you for braving speaking up. This is my way of doing the same.

  35. avatar Susan Rediger-Blackburn says:

    Vicki, I know a lot of area (Pinedale) small business owners personally. They are good people. I have had many a conversations with Ranchers and many letters from the Senators “that represent the voters view” . Yes they all thank me too for my heart and willingness to speak out (thanks for your input we will take it under advise BUT we feel bla.bla,bla….) Thus, a nickname Wolf Lady or Chicago Sue. I am telling you from the bottom of my heart that this area will not change. This is one if not the only open drift left in the lower 48. Cattle and horses are moving by Cowboys because gas is to high (if you have never seen either this too is something to see. Yes beautiful in its own way).My point is action like I stated before is the only way to effect the slaughters now taking place. No I am NOT afraid of harm etc… (if you knew me you would understand:) I am a strong willed Irish Chicago women that was taught to speak my mind with respect always respect for those you are in discussion with. Finally, dont stop your views and try to open your heart to a place that was and forgotten in time and very happy to stay that way!

  36. avatar kim kaiser says:

    YOu are the one that stated

    ” You can boycott all you want but this area really doesnt survive on your dollar’

    No hidden insults from me… just reminding you that your area DOES get money from the tourist,,,chk tax contributions from state and local govts,, pull them from you city coffers that provide police, fire, health, road, etc services, and you will see that yes,, your area will suffer,,,

  37. avatar vicki says:

    Susan,
    I was wondering if there is an air of fear in general, not just with you per say. Do you think others remain quiet out of fear.

  38. avatar Karen says:

    As I read through all these blogs I am struck by a sense of incredulity. There are people in colorado, and california and utah worrying about how Wyoming tends to it’s own business. If you all want to be really proactive about saving wolves perhaps Wyoming would live trap enough so colorado, california, utah and anyone else can have their own poulation. That’s how you all can save the wolves outside of the trophy hunt area. Get in touch with the Wyoming game and fish department and tell them to send your state any problem wolves. I would bet they would be happy to. You can adopt a wolf for colorado, california,utah, oregon, or whereever you are. Then you can legislate your own wolf protection in the state where you live. Yellowstone has wolves yet most of you seem unhappy. Truly where does it end? Reality says that when the wolf lived over most of the lower 48 there were only about 250,000 people here. Unless you live here you really need to tend to your own back yard. That’s what seems ludicrous to me. Colorado can do what it wants with wolves or whatever because it really doesn’t affect me. It’s your state. Do with it what you want. I may have an opinion about how things are done, but I have no right to come to your home and tell you how to live, or what to do with your resources. The boycott is an attempt to manipulate a public policy in a place that you don’t live. My question is do you really feel like it’s your place to tell us how to live? Apparently most of you do. I can’t for the life of me figure out why? Truly our politics are not your concern. If you want wolves come and get them. Like Susan said do something.

  39. avatar Susan Rediger-Blackburn says:

    Kim,
    I am sorry you are so money oriented. There are some great books on the history of Sublette Co.which it is very rich (not money) in. Maybe pick up one of those and you wont hate all of us. Have you ever seen Indian Pass. I do ever morning or have you ever packed the Winds. I once read a mountaineer climbed to be closer to God. I think God also gave us this beauty to enjoy. Even in WY. As, Ralph said this area has the gas field and billions in resources from that. So keep beating that drum if you want, it WILL get you nowhere here. Sorry but it’s a physical presence against the killings that will slow it down, not rhetoric about tx $. I just speak the truth of what I know will work.

  40. avatar Susan Rediger-Blackburn says:

    Vicki,
    I would say yes. Fear can be very powerful and intimidating. Yet, if you could just see the love for the land and their lives here people just might see thing a bit different. Change too is a scary thing or admitting they just might be wrong or opened there eyes and ears with something you say. It is just such a time bomb. If you look at the hx here they will tell you the wolves were never gone. That the government and other wasted millions for this wolf thing. So if you might being to understand a bit It will become clear as to why the hate this beautiful creature. Not always just just their feels as we have. Rome wasn’t built in a day. Thanks PS I just hate the bashing and feeling the hate from people who don’t live here to see there is great beauty in the land and love in just about very local for this land friend or foe on this subject. How about a march but who would really show up ? ANYONE? ANYONE ?

  41. avatar vicki says:

    I’d show up. I don’t hate anyone, I don’t always agree withw hat they say or do. But people are not without flaws. I have loved the environment, and adored Wyoming’s beauty for so long that is has become a part of my identity. I hope that there is a day in the future when everyone can feel at peace with what has happened, and at the same time, feel at peace with what will be.
    Keep being strong. It is obvious that your resolve to save what you love is huge. I admire your determination. Thanks.

  42. avatar vicki says:

    Karen,
    A cicil war was fought in this great nation. SOme might have led you to believe it was all about slavery. It wasn’t. It was mostly about state rights vs. federal rights. Guess who won? To say that resources, because they are located in Wyoming, are entirely up to Wyoming to be managed is ridiculous.
    If that were truly your stand, perhaps you could tell me how Wyoming would exist, and with what standard of living, if we pulled every dime of funding from Federal sources? No more welfare, road funds, food stamps, medicaid, hospital grants, federal tax rebates, federal funding for management of those resources… do you really think that no person who lives outside of Wyoming contributes to your state’s well-being?
    If Wyoming would have really wanted some of those wolves out of their state, they would have created protection through a migration corridor south. They don’t want them in Colorado, or Utah. They want them dead.
    The backwards and out-dated attitude that no one should tell you how to live in your state is laughable. I am quite sure that if tragedy, such as the Katrina disaster, befell Wyoming, and your house was gone in a day, you’d gladly accept help (for yourself and your neighbors). That help would be provided by tax payers outside of your home state. You may live in Wyoming, but you only own the portion with your name on the deed. I don’t know what you do for a living, but my guess is, your funds would be greatly effected if the tourist industry in your state took a nose dive.
    Yes, I would hope to CHANGE the current mismanagement of natural resources in Wyoming, by not spending there. If you are so intent on keeping people who support wolves being appropriately managed from expressing an opinion…well you will be glad if I don’t stop at a gas station in your home town with my environmentally oriented opinions.
    Your approach to the situation will only strengthen people’s resolve not to patronize businesses in Wyoming.
    However, I would welcome you to visit Colorado, and to spend your money where you think it will do the most good. I would hope people in my home state would welcome you with a friendlier atitude than you have shown many of us.

  43. avatar Heather says:

    I’d show up for a march or stand in…

  44. avatar vicki says:

    I would too, but how much impact will it have? Would Wyoming really care about the opinions of marchers? especially those from out of state? Or would they just reitterate the sentiments of people like Karen, who posted above?

  45. avatar Mack P. Bray says:

    Susan Rediger-Blackburn, please contact me. Wildlife Watchers is organizing here in Jackson, we’re meeting next weekend and would like for you to join us. I think we can put together an action in Sublette County that will be effective. I thinking a petition might be a good start. Wildlife Watchers needs organizers in every state house and state senate district in Wyoming, as well as all other states.

    Vicki, Heather and everybody, stay tuned…

    Susan, I think you’re new here? Please check our concept; our web site will be up in a week or two:

    http://wildlifewatchers.jottit.com/

    How many Americans would like to lay foot on the Bridger-Teton National Forest and see more bison, grizzlies and wolves? Hell, how many Wyomingites would like to see more bison, grizzlies and wolves on the B-T?

    America’s public lands belong to all Americans, while the wildlife of our respective states belongs to all the citizens of the respective states. The wildlife of each respective state is held in trust for all the citizens of each respective state, and is to be managed for the benefit of all the citizens and not just special interest groups. It ain’t happening.

    See the conflict with management of the state’s wildlife on the nation’s public lands?

    States must be held fully accountable for their roles as (supposed) unbiased trustees of our public resources, which includes wildlife. We must demand that our states adhere to the Public Trust Doctrine. We can only do this through legislation, policy overview and the courts.

    One of the core issues in most or all of our wildlife issues is the grazing of private livestock on public lands. Remove the cows and sheep, and watch the conflicts drop away…

    To that end, visit the National Public Lands Grazing Campaign – http://www.publiclandsranching.org/ – and demand that your House representative co-sponsor the Multiple-Use Conflict Resolution Act (H.R. 3166).

    Mack P. Bray
    Wildlife Watchers
    wildlifewatchers@bresnan.net

  46. avatar vicki says:

    I have read a bit about Sublette county. About 44% of all people employed in Sublette county are employed in mining, government or construction. That is close to one half of all it’s employed people. Given the current slump in construction, and dismal projections for that industry, I’d say there will be a dip in economical stability in that county in the near future.
    If you also note that @49% of that county’s population is 40 or older, you can project a big increase in the need for medicare and social security, over the next 10-15 years. (how many 50 year old men can still mine?)
    This is an unstable regeon that is basing their entire hopes on mining. Mining historically leaves a trail of destitude ruin in it’s wake. Sublette county will surely be in that wake too.
    I’d say this county is in for a rough road.
    It would only take a short time before tourists’ dollars spent elsewhere would be noticed. Basically, if you aren’t a miner or employed by the government in Sublette county, your income is sure to be effected.
    I am not the “Vicky” that originally called for a boycott, although I have personally chosen not to spend money in Wyoming, outside of YNP. But even I can see how a boycott would effect things in counties such as Sublette. SO why wouldn’t people in Wyoming have a vested interest in changing public opinion of the state’s natural resources management? Why would they keep the stance that no one should care what hey do there? We are long passed the point of if people should or should not care, they simply do. So what next? Does Wyoming turn it’s head and ignore what impact their mismanagemnt will have on Wyoming’s industry as a whole? Or does Wyoming realize that it can salvage public opinion, and save tourism revenue from dropping?
    Sublette county has a small, in fact minute, amount of people employed in agriculture. The number of people employed in retail is higher. I will leave you to formulate your own opinion on who is most effected by the management issues…ranchers, or everyone else.
    I am not asking anyone to join me in not spending in Wyoming. I have just made the choice not to spend their myslef.

  47. avatar Karen says:

    Vicki Yes a civil war was fought and darn it the states lost. To answer your questions first if we lost our federal funding our roads would suffer a bit, but an increase in excise taxes on minerals would probably shore that up along with schools,hospitals and all the other things you mentioned. If the welfare system suffered we would probably lose three fourths of our people on welfare to states that paid better. If we had a Katrina type disaster we would go shoulder to shoulder with our neighbors and fix our own problems as we have done for years. What you don’t seem to understand is that if Wyoming were an independant nation we would have a higher gross national product than all the third world countries and a fair amount of industrialized nations in the world. I’m not sure your boycott will even be a blip on the economic radar. The issue in this blog is about wolves. I assume you believe in evolution, natural selection and all that. What we have here is unprecedented in the eons of history. The most efficient predator on the evolutionary scale(man) having some mercy on lesser predators(wolves,bears, eagles,ferretts etc.). Pre human existence this type of thing never happened ever. If the wolf was less efficient the wolf went extinct. Ask the dinosaurs. You seem to want what you want and by golly you want it now!!! If you believe in evolution it took millions of years to get here so be patient. If you want a biblical perspective God put us in charge of the animals and told us to use them as we see fit. Most people from that perspective see more use for an animal that they can eat than an animal that they have to compete with. In either scenario the wolf loses unles we choose to allow them to survive. The fight is over how. If you want to change how Wyoming people percieve the wolf you can’t talk to us like we’re a bunch of ignorant school children. You are right most Wyomingites who were born and raised here aren’t espeacially crazy about wolves, mostly because during the reintroduction phase they were shoved down our throats. 70% of the people of the state were opposed to reintroduction, but the U.S.F&W. did it anyway. They could have picked a hundred other locations and the surrounding residents would have been just as angry. Why? Because no one likes to have any thing forced on them. People hate change. Wyomings wolf policy is simple. The state game and fish were handed the responsibility of paying depradation on wolves outside the trophy area and they don’t have the money. In case you haven’t figured it out it’s always about the money. If they had a migration corridor they would have to pay depradation through the nose. I am Karen a portrait artist and a rancher’s wife, but I am neither backward or ignorant.

  48. avatar JEFF E says:

    Karen says,
    70% of the people of the state were opposed to reintroduction,…..”
    That’s not what wyoming’s management plan says.
    “the plan” in fact says the majority of Wyoming residents favor wolf re-introduction.

  49. Karen,

    The only state that could exist as an independent country is probably California, maybe Texas.

    Wyoming is deficient in just about everything but fossil fuels, and it is land-locked. A large portion of the fossil fuels are owned by the federal government. How would you get hold of them?

    You should read Pushed Off the Mountain Sold Down the River: Wyoming’s Search for Its Soul
    by Samuel Western. He lives in Wyoming,

    Many people interpret Genesis quite differently than you do. Others regard Genesis as something not to be taken literally, or taken at all.

    I am privy to good public opinion data on wolf support in Wyoming, and it is higher than you think, but it lacks political organization.

    Ranching is symbolically big in Wyoming, but lags behind energy and tourism. The energy companies allow Wyoming to pretend to be “the cowboy state.”

    Wolf depredation costs are so low that Defenders could easily pay them over the last 13 years. A single millionaire could pay them.

  50. avatar Karen says:

    Thanks Ralph and Jeff for your feedback and your lack of condescencion. I realize it would be tough, but my point to vicki has been simply that in 1994 when the wolf reintroduction began 70% of the people were opposed.I attended several meetings in the eastern half of the state regarding reintroduction and there was no one out of 100 people who spoke for wolf recovery. That said the concensus in this part of the state was that it was a bad deal for us but we were going to have to take it. My father used to say figures lie and liars figure. You can make a poll or a report say whatever you want depending on whom you talk to. If you poll Teton county you will have more support than if you poll Sublette, or Converse county. That is simply because most of teton county’s residents are not born and raised here. If support for wolves is higher in the state now it is simply because their are more people from out of state moving here. That said the general consensus on this blog says ranchers and oil/gas companies are the villains, and things should be restored to the way they were two hundred years ago. That is simply not possible. If it were the native people would hunt buffalo and we would all live east of the Mississippi river or in Europe. That’s not going to happen. Big cities like Denver, Salt Lake City, or even smaller cities like Billings are never going away. Those cities need energy, the people need food. We’ve seen the results of whoring our country out to opec. By doing that we are funding our own destruction. September 11th was a great example of that. Agriculture and oil have the power they have because they meet the basic everyday needs of the citizenry of this nation. I know there is a segment of the population that think we should do away with all production of food and oil in this country and import all of it. Do we really want to put ourselves at the mercy of any other country whose interests are not in our best interest? The wolf is not endangered like the snow leopard is endangered. Alaska and Canada are loaded with them. The under current of blogs such as this are we want our way at your expense. The wolves were here first so you have to move. The Utes were in Salt Lake first, but i don’t see anyone rushing in to tear down Salt Lake and give it back. Like wise the Cheyennes aren’t getting Denver, or the Crows Billings. The wolf can never be where it was. There are over three hundred million people in America and they all have to eat,heat their homes, and drive to work. Yellowstone is a great place for the wolf. When they conflict with humans they will lose. There is no place in eastern Wyoming for them and legal or not I know enough ranchers and hunters that hate them that legal or not they will die.

  51. avatar JEFF E says:

    Karen,
    This is from “the plan”
    “Wyoming residents were split on their views towards wolves prior to reintroduction, with 49% in
    favor and 39% opposed to wolf restoration into Yellowstone National Park (Bath 1991). ”
    A more detailed report from Wyoming Fish and Game dated 2002 repeats these same results.
    Where do you derive the 70% stat from?

  52. avatar Karen says:

    Jeff Relax, Is that the 1994 poll. I am recalling from memory to 1994 when this whole thing blew up. Perhaps it was northeastern wyoming that was 70% opposed. It is not from any study. If my memory is hazy apologies. I attended several forums with the game and fish and for some reason the figure 70% sticks in my head. If I am wrong I’m wrong I can own it.

  53. avatar dbaileyhill says:

    Karen,
    Do you feel that the wolves were forced on you /WY, due to “out-of-state” people who moved to WY? That would seem to indicate the “natives” are far out numbered by the new folks. I guess I am in disbelief that there are so many new people to tip the scale so drastically.
    People are people no matter where they are–meaning i don’t think it is possible that the new folks could be that much more active politically, environmentally, etc., than those born and raised there. If that is the case, it would be a very unusual situation. Are there a lot of native folk, moving to other states? maybe for work? I am very curious, and unfamiliar with the economy in WY.

  54. avatar Karen says:

    I won’t change your mind and you won’t change mine. I believe that how colorado, utah or Idaho manage their wildlife is thir business. How Wyoming manages theirs is none of yours unles you are A RESIDENT. The government owns the land but they put wolf management on the backs of the state. The state either cannot, or refuses to mess with the depradation issue. By making the wolf a predator outside the greater Yellowstone ecosystem they don’t have to pay for it. Right now depradation from trophy game animals costs the state. Depradation from predators does not cost anything it’s at the land owner’s expense. With the current wolf population depradation costs are not that high. If there were 2000 wolves throughout the state and they killed a sheep a day a piece that would cost the state 16,000 dollars per day at current market price. That is $5,400,000 per year. If they killed one calf every three days apiece. That would cost the state $88,330,000 per year. Obviously that is not going to happen. it raises the possibility for a huge liability for the game and fish. I said it before and I’ll say it again follow the money. Money is the end all and be all in our nation today. This is a blog for wolf lovers and as such I don’t belong here. For those of you who will listen to an opposing point of view understand I respect yours although I wholeheartedly disagree with you. If the wolf survives outside of national wilderness areas it will be because it is financially worthwhile for people to allow them to live. Any millionaire could pay current depradation, but the question is would they? Once maybe for publicity, twice possibly, but as the problem increases I seriously doubt you would find any of them willing to carry it year after year. Then the burden falls on the taxpayer. Who pays the most tax in the state? Mining, and oil/gas production companies are by far the largest. The second largest are private property owners. Ranchers and homeowners. The game and fish recieves money from the state every year so obviously liscense sales aren’t cutting it. Then it’s up to me. Follow the money. The reason the law is what it is is because the state does not want wolves outside the yellowstone ecosystem. Why? It will cost them too much. As elk and deer herds shift and deplete from the predation hunters will join our side. That is already happening. There are rumblings from those who hunt Dubois, and the Gros Ventre that elk numbers are down in their areas. The elk are simply moving east to get away from predation. We have more elk here than we have ever had and no one can explain why. Maybe mild winters, maybe migration maybe both. Where elk are wolves will follow. You all can rest assured that the wolf will spread. If wolf 235 were hit by a car would there be this uproar? Maybe the guy did it on purpose? No there wouldn’t. Wolf 235 got selected. He was 3 legged and old and nature selected him. Like it or not man is part of nature. We are the most efficient predator on the earth. We are territorial, we are aggressive, we kill each other in battle, we are possesive of our mates, we live in herds etc. If you believe in evolution the wolf is another victim of natural selection. The wolf is not endangered it simply lost control of part of it’s domain to a superior predator. Do you live in houses? Drive cars? Live in a place that used to be wolf habitat? Do you burn fossil or bio fuel that gives off carbon emissions? Do you buy things in plastic containers or wear nylon,or put disposable diapers on your kid? If you answered yes to these then you are part of the problem. You helped eliminate wolves. Ask your self this question: Would you give it all up to live in a tent and restore the wolf to it’s natural habitat? If you said yes good for you send me pics. I am guessing most of you wouldn’t even ride a bike to work instad of drive to save the wolf. If you aren’t commited enough to give up your way of life for the wolf how dare you ask me to give up mine.

  55. Karen,

    I’m glad you posted because you embody so many often heard ideas that are just plain wrong. Read this.

    You write: “With the current wolf population depradation costs are not that high. If there were 2000 wolves throughout the state and they killed a sheep a day a piece that would cost the state 16,000 dollars per day at current market price.

    There are not 2000 wolves in Wyoming. There are about 150 in Wyoming outside of YNP. Don’t try to tell us a ewe or a ram costs $16,000! A quick web search shows the average for a ewe is $125 to $200, not $16,000.

    There would never be 2000 wolves in Wyoming.

    You wrote: “Any millionaire could pay current depradation, but the question is would they?”

    My point is the depredation costs are so small that it doesn’t take a group to reimburse the entire state. Just one person of means could do it. Furthermore, the losses are spread over many producers. The loss per producer is unnoticeable to the state economy and not much to any individual, and they were generally compensated.

    The sportsmen of Wyoming should yell like hell about compensating livestock producers 700% per animal lost in the trophy game zone. It’s a pure money grab by the livestock industry.

    You wrote in response to me: Any millionaire could pay current depradation, but the question is would they? Once maybe for publicity, twice possibly, but as the problem increases I seriously doubt you would find any of them willing to carry it year after year. Then the burden falls on the taxpayer.”

    It does not fall on the taxpayer, it falls on Wyoming Game and Fish. Don’t you know how that department if funded?

    You write: “There are rumblings from those who hunt Dubois, and the Gros Ventre that elk numbers are down in their areas. The elk are simply moving east to get away from predation. We have more elk here than we have ever had and no one can explain why.”

    So more elk than you have ever seen in your neighborhood is evidence of the horrible effects of wolves?

    The elk numbers in Dubois and the Gros Ventre are not down. Robert Hoskins has gone over this in detail many times on the blog, and the numbers are available with Wyoming Game and Fish.

    You write: “If wolf 235 were hit by a car would there be this uproar? Maybe the guy did it on purpose? No there wouldn’t. Wolf 235 got selected. He was 3 legged and old and nature selected him. Like it or not man is part of nature. We are the most efficient predator on the earth.”

    Wolf 253 got selected not by nature, but someone with a gun who saw him. He did not get selected because he had only 3 good legs because two other wolves were present and shot.

    You and some other people like to say “man is part of nature.” I can’t figure out what this means or why it matters. No one said “man” was artificial or supernatural.

    Are you suggesting that because humans are so good at destroying life, that any killing is justified?

    Your write: “Do you live in houses? Drive cars? Live in a place that used to be wolf habitat? Do you burn fossil or bio fuel that gives off carbon emissions? Do you buy things in plastic containers or wear nylon,or put disposable diapers on your kid? If you answered yes to these then you are part of the problem. You helped eliminate wolves.”

    No. Wolves did not disappear in Wyoming because of any of this in the 1920s. They were poisoned and shot.

    A couple hundred wolves doesn’t require us to give up anything and it doesn’t require you to give up anything. You seem to be selfish in mere anticipation of the thought.

    You said “Money is the end all and be all in our nation today.” Perhaps you are projecting your personal view of what counts, but more likely all of this comes because someone dared challenge your local mythology.

    What happens in Wyoming effects people outside the state, and we are perfectly justified trying to influence events in Wyoming. The Internet made this a very small world.

    Ralph Maughan
    Pocatello, Idaho where wolves used to roam and where they can again nearby because wolf habitat is available.

  56. avatar Robert Hoskins says:

    Ralph et al.

    I think it would be more accurate to say that it is hunters, not wolves, who have been reducing elk numbers in western Wyoming, by conscious design of the Wyoming G&F Department in response to landowner/rancher complaints about too many elk.

    The big lie is that G&F, for political reasons, is claiming that wolves are responsible for what hunters themselves have been doing, and doing very well.

    That’s precisely what has happened here in the Dubois area with the Wiggins Fork Elk Herd. Hunters are in fact overhunting elk in western Wyoming to keep landowners happy. Wolves have very little to do with it.

    It has reached the point that license numbers are being lowered in the Dubois area; even the G&F knows that the excessive hunting needs to end. It’s just easier to blame reduced license numbers on wolves than on hunters.

    Karen’s posts actually reflect many things I’ve been saying on this blog, for example, the existence of the predatory animal zone in Wyoming can be traced to the refusal, reluctance, etc., of the G&F Dept. to pay damage claims for wolf depredation out of the Game and Fish Fund.

    For G&F, it was a financial and political issue: G&F didn’t want to pay the damage claims using license fees, and it didn’t want to have to put up with the politics of wolf management in the entire state. It is G&F that put the idea of dual status into the ideologically muddled heads of Wyoming legislators, who, with their hatred of wolves and the false belief that wolves were shoved down their throats, enacted the dual status law.

    From the standpoint of realpolitik, dual status was a slick move on the part of G&F, and a commentary on the ignorance of most Wyoming legislators; punch the wolf button, and the largesse flows. G&F has followed up the realpolitik by convincing the legislature to fund damage compensation by wolves in the trophy game zone. It is G&F that came up with the 7X compensation formula for wolf kills on sheep and calves in the trophy game zone–the formula has no scientific basis–thus establishing an additional subsidy to ranchers and landowners out of the General Fund rather than the Game and Fish Fund; with the resulting pressure from landowners on the legislature to keep funding that subsidy in the future. This is something the Stockgrowers, the Farm Bureau, etc., are very good at: robbing the public purse. This time, however, G&F has shifted the subsidizing out of the G&F Fund to the General Fund.

    The weakness of dual status is that it violates the Endangered Species Act and the 1994 Final Rule for Reintroduction. G&F knows this and Wyoming’s Governor, the former US Attorney in Cheyenne, knows this. (The legislature still doesn’t). But, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    What Karen doesn’t understand is this: support for wolves, by every scientifically valid survey done in Wyoming, all done by Responsive Management, is widespread throughout Wyoming, although I would agree that it is less in NE Wyoming; I’d have to go back to the surveys to tease that number out.

    The other thing she doesn’t understand, and no doubt won’t accept, is that many of us consider livestock grazing in the West to constitute a practice “shoved down OUR throats.”

    The imposition of agriculture, especially pastoralism, upon the watersheds of the West was an irrational and radical act that has done incalculable but undeniable damage to land, wildlife, and water systems of the West over the last century. Even if all livestock were removed from western watersheds today, it would take decades, even centuries, to repair the damage.

    Some conservationists have made good arguments that the damage done by cows and domestic sheep has been so devastating that restoration of functioning watersheds will be only a goal, not an actuality. (I’m not quite ready to go that far, but I understand the argument, and it’s a good heuristic for conservation).

    In closing, for myself, I would be more than happy to raze Salt Lake City, Billings, Denver, Missoula, Bozeman (especially Bozeman), Cheyenne, Fort Collins, Greely, etc., to the ground and return the land to its rightful inhabitants–to wolves, grizzly bears, bison, elk, bighorn sheep, pronghorn, etc. and to the people who knew how to live WITH wildlife and land rather than running them into the ground, as we Europeans have done.

    That won’t happen, however, so we conservationists do the best we can with what we have. I do know we’d do a lot better without cattle and domestic sheep, that’s for sure.

    And we’d certainly do a lot better without the Wyoming Farm Bureau Federation and the Wyoming Stockgroaners Association and the Wyoming Woolgroaners Association controlling wildlife management policy in Wyoming, shoving their oligarchic and obsolete demands down the throats of the rest of us.

    RH

  57. avatar JEFF E says:

    I believe this contains the numbers RH refers to as far as Wyoming views on wolves.
    http://www.wyomingwolves.org/WYattitudes2003.pdf

  58. avatar JB says:

    On the subject of what is “nature” or “natural” with regards to selection… I’m getting tired of the myth that the removal of wolves was somehow a “natural” process or related to natural selection. It’s time for this myth to die.

    From the Random House Unabridged dictionary:

    na·ture –noun
    1. the material world, esp. as surrounding humankind and existing independently of human activities.
    2. the natural world as it exists without human beings or civilization.

    Including humans and human-made objects as part of nature renders the word meaningless. If people and our creations are part of nature then nature includes everything–not just the rocks, rivers, trees, and wildlife, but also the people, their cities, cars and roads. If nature includes everything then the term becomes useless for differentiating any one object/entity from any other–nature would literally become a synonym for “everything.” As the above definitions demonstrate, this is not how the word is used our society; “nature” refers to the non-human world, to the objects and processes that are NOT driven by human beings. Similarly, “natural selection” refers to selection not caused by humans (when humans apply selective pressures to induce change in a species phenotype over time this is referred to as “artificial” selection).

    Natural selection is the process by which characteristics that are beneficial to a population tend to accumulate in that population over time. The U.S. government’s extirpation of wolves is NOT AN EXAMPLE OF NATURAL SELECTION. Let’s be clear: we (humans, NOT nature) removed whole populations of wolves from the U.S. because of fear, prejudice, and a perceived conflict with livestock. Nature played no part in the strychnine poisonings, shootings, trappings, and other unspeakable things that humans did to wolves and other predators. We alone bear the responsibility and the shame for these actions.

  59. avatar YNP4me says:

    Wolf tally to date
    ( posted 4/12/08 )
    Cat Urbigkit, Pinedale Online!

    3/28/08 1 male Cora killed by rancher in calving pasture
    3/28/08 1 female Daniel
    3/28/08 2 males Daniel
    3/30/08 1 male Daniel
    4/02/08 1 female Bondurant
    4/03/08 1 male South Pass
    4/03/08 1 female South Pass
    4/06/08 1 male Bondurant
    4/07/08 3 males Cora by control action
    4/07/08 1 female Cora by control action

    MORE info at the link
    http://www.pinedaleonline.com/#wolftally

  60. avatar vicki says:

    Good morning all.
    Well I would love to take credit for bringing out the best in some people, I think the issue at hand gets that title.
    I know you may not believe this RH, but I echo your remarks, and may I say “well put”.
    I however, would not go back 200 years. Though I may have done things differently. I’m glad I can now vote, and there are no slaves in this country. Overcoming ignorance about treatment of men was a big step forward. NOw we need to overcome the ignorance of treatment of our resources.
    I would love to see what habitat we have available be kept or restored to it’s best state.

    I would also point out that Karen remarked about “financially worthwhile” people. I don’t value people’s worth by assessing their financial situation. A person’s value is the sum of their character, in my opinion.
    If there was a disaster, I’d actually help her out. Because “my father” taught me that doing the right thing is about what you are doing, not who you do it for.
    She uses her father’s expression about numbers being manipulated to fit an arguement…she did that herself, with some rather outrageous figures I might add.
    She also asks if I drive a car, live in a house, etc… yes I do. Which is another reason why I take ownership of my responsibility for creating the environmental problems we have now, and why I will continue to try to find solutions. I have a responsibility and an ethical obligation to do that.
    I am sorry that she found me offensive, I try not to be offensive to anyone. She is absolutely right about ONE thing… you can’t make anyone see your point if you make their anger blind them to reason.
    I’m also glad she posted, it stengthens my resolve.
    Thanks.

  61. avatar Karen says:

    I told you we wouldn’t see eye to eye. You see man as seperate from nature. Perhaps above it? Able to control it? A couple of hundred wolves can live in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. A couple of thousand would be all over the state. I’m guessing most of you see nothing wrong with abortion, key word here guessing. Yet you are totally up in arms about wolves dying. Robert no offense. You’ve spent your life in academia. Colleges and universities are rife with ideas but sometimes low in practicality. You don’t want to hear this. If you don’t believe me go to an ag college. They have tons of experiments that work well on an experiment farm but have little or no practical value in the real world. Think back to your required sociology or psych classes. Lots of theories, but no practicality. If you would truly raze the cities to restore wolf habitat Robert you are no different philosophically than those you despise. You are an elitist snob who think that you have the right to force your views down others throats through economic blackmail. Vicki you are uneducated about wyomingites and need to inform yourslf by coming here and making your living with livestock in mining and get some dirt under your fingernails. My place mercifully is not full of federal land, it is all deeded. I will shoot anything that causes me economic grief through predation. The issue is am i willing to give up my life style for an animal? The answer is no. Are most of you willing give up your lifestyle for the wolf. The answer is no. Robert sell all you have and give to the wolves leave Pocatello and live in atent summer and winter protecting your precious wolves. Most of you won’t interupt your lives enough to help the wolf that you are so passionate about. You think ranchers should give up a way of life that we have had for generations because you see it as less valuable than a wolf. That is your opinion, but you are wrong. An animal has never been more valuable than a human being. Someday it may happen in large numbers and God help all of you when it does. When the sanctity of human life is devalued then people die in numbers none of can even imagine. You all live in or near cities. If my life and livlihood are worthless so too are yours. How do most of you eat? You go to a store and buy it right? Where does it come from? A farm or ranch Right? I am sure some of you are totally self contained but most of you are typical americans. You live in town get everything you want when you want it and have plenty of time for other pursuits like trying to force your views on people who don’t agree with you. I have wasted enough time and breath here. Try your boycott it might work. I don’t think so. Vicki drive from Cheyenne to Yellowstone with your kids and try not spending any money here. Robert live in whatever world you like. Academia lends itself to that. Susan thanks for at least getting to know us. Thanks for listening even if you don’t agree.

  62. avatar Save bears says:

    Karen,

    I don’t live in a city, my closest city is about 45 minutes away, and I do support management of wolves, but I am sorry, I don’t support killing them because I can, I would not have any problem shooting a wolf, lion, bear or coyote if it was in the act of harassment or predation, but I also don’t support the “Preventive” management program that Wyoming has instituted. I think that Wyoming, with their program has given the environmental groups strong fuel for their fires, and if they win the lawsuits, which now I think could be a possibility, then the wolf will be relisted and we have have far more illegal killing than has happened in the past..hence, I believe it is going to cost more money all the way around…I am no for or against wolves, they have no bearing on my life, even though I do live in a recovery zone…I see them every once in a while and I have also seen packs destroyed in the local area here. But please don’t assume, that because people are against Wyoming’s Management plan, that we all live in a town or city..I like many do live in remote parts of the country, and are pretty self sustaining, My freezer is full of deer and elk, as well as vegetables that I grew myself, I buy very little commercial meat….and I am not in support of the plan that Wyoming has instituted, whats really sad, it I know several Wyoming Game and Fish employee’s that are not in favor of it either…but they hesitate to speak out…

  63. avatar JEFF E says:

    Karen,
    Why do you assume that people that don’t agree with you are “from the city”. Does that make you feel somehow justified.

  64. avatar Robert Hoskins says:

    Karen

    I think your credibility just went down to zero. I have not spent my life in academia. As a matter of fact, I can’t stand the ivory tower; I have “only” Bachelor’s degrees, and graduated from university way back in 1976.

    My dad had a Bachelor’s degree in Agricultural Science, and he went back to the family tobacco and timber “plantation,” where I grew up.

    To the contrary, I spent much of my life in the United States Army–eight years in Special Forces, in fact. That military experience on three continents has given me considerable practical insight into the damage human beings do not only to themselves, but to land, water, and wildlife. These are things I’ve seen with my own eyes, not read in a book.

    Human beings are not more valuable than the earth upon which we all depend for our survival–the earth that we humans are doing everything possible to turn into slag.

    In fact, I do spend much of the summer and fall in the backcountry, not so much to protect wolves, or elk, or bears, or wolverines, for that matter, but to understand their ecological roles in how the Yellowstone Country works. I’ve already sold much of what I have to support my work, and own only those things which are necessary to a life in the woods–axes, tents, saddles, panniers, one ton truck, horse trailer, farrier tools, hunting weapons, fishing gear, optics, etc. I live in a cabin with no running water and have only wood heat; my life is far more reflective of the 19th century than I suspect yours is.

    I must confess, I do have thousands of books and obviously a phone line for the computer. A necessary if onerous compromise with modern life.

    That you’re so wrong about me suggests that you’re wrong about a great many things. You just can’t pull things out of a stetson hat and claim that they’re true, as you’ve done here.

    By the way, are you Karen Hamilton? Just curious.

    RH

  65. avatar JB says:

    Karen says: “You see man as seperate from nature. Perhaps above it?”

    [sigh] Humans are separate from nature. In fact, “nature” is a term that we use to describe this separateness. As I already explained this (see explanation above) I won’t go through it again. Humans are not above or below nature; we are both subject to the forces of nature and sometimes able to direct and control them.

    Karen says: “You think ranchers should give up a way of life that we have had for generations because you see it as less valuable than a wolf.”

    Your post is full of assumptions and stereotypes that people do not neatly conform with. This statement typifies these type of assumptions. I don’t see ranchers “way of life” as more or less valuable than wolves. I do see SOME of ranchers practices and SOME of their beliefs as incompatible with all sorts of wildlife (wolves, bison, cougars, coyotes, elk, deer, etc.). In my opinion wildlife and wild places are more valuable than sheep and cattle, and preserving them is more important than preserving the ranching “way of life” insofar as this way of life conflicts with the presence of wildlife.

    To be clear, I don’t believe that the practice of raising livestock and large predators are necessarily incompatible; look at wolves in the Midwest. However, I do believe that some of the practices used by ranchers in the West need to change if they are to be compatible with wolves and other wildlife. If ranchers are unwilling to change and they go out of business, so be it.

    You have presented a false choice: wildlife or ranching. Given that choice, I’ll chose wildlife every time. But I don’t believe it needs to be that way.

    Just my opinion.

    From: Ohio, by way of Michigan, California, Utah, and Minnesota

  66. avatar vicki says:

    Karen,
    Dirt under my nails? YOu have really got the ASSuming thing down to an art.
    FYI, I grew up working in a rural cafe, and on a farm. Dirt is something I am very familiar with. I hunt, I fish, and I am a bit more educated than you’d like to believe.
    If you find comfort in your assumptions, well great for you.
    But I do give up about 15% of my annual income to supporting causes I believe in. Would I scrafice my lifestyle? Yes, I would.
    You yammer on about how conservationists would like to shove their opinions down your throat, and then go on about generations of ranchers. Would those be the same ranchers who forced Native Americans onto reservations, and shoved Christianity down their throats? Hypocritical arguments only prove how willing some people are to scarafice what is right for their own selfishness.
    Research cattle a bit…we produce more than we consume in the USA. Only @3%of that total comes from private ranchers.
    I don’t live in Cheyenne, and Robert isn’t in Idaho. But true to form with many people who oppose wolves, or bison or environmental balance period… you throw out invalid mumbo jumbo to make a point, even if they have to fabricate or bend the truth to do it.
    You are right, we don’t see eye to eye. I won’t spend my money in Wyoming, but I don’t begin to tell you or others what to do with yours.
    What is the saddest part of all of this is that there are still a few people around like you, who are hell bent on preserving your way of life, regardless of what it costs anyone else. Selfishness or ignorance? I don’t know… both maybe… neither maybe… but then, there are still guys running around in white hoods who feel the way of life they enjoyed, though requiring them to own another human being, is something they are entitled to. So you say we value animals above people, hardly. What I value is my right to vote, and enjoy the public lands that I pay taxes to maintain.
    You have spoken up for generations of people who have ranched…well my share cropping grandpa taught me to love nature, enjoy the outdoors, and to leave only footprints. So that is quite a generational tradition too. Mine just happens to be better for most people’s interests, and for this planet.
    Am I right? Not always, are you? Not in my opinion, though I am glad to live in a nation where you get to express it.
    We only have one planet, there aren’t multitudes of lab planets in this experiment. Once this one is messed up, you don’t get a do-over. You can’t take it back.
    The damage that is being caused by cattle and sheep will likely never be reversed. But it can be stopped.
    That is what I intend to help do.
    Please, don’t throw out the word elitist, when you value people based on their “financial worthwhile.” Why does your opinion of Wyoming matter so much more than anyone who may have just moved there? (I would guess that many WYoming natives have a less primitive view of wolves and conservation than you do.) If your argument holds true, then wolves will prevail, because the opinion of true Wyoming natives(Native Americans) hold nature in a higher regard than cattle. Your opinion is pretty insignifigant, by your own standard.
    I will agree to disagree here. But Thanks for the input. It helps me see just how desperately change needs to occur.

  67. avatar Karen says:

    Do you believe cattle and sheep have caused irreperable harm? We will not change each others minds. Read my blogs in their entirety, don’t nit pick details. I am telling you if you want wolves to roam the entire state it’s going to cost you money. What I said still stands Most of you won’t sacrifice your lifestyle for an animal. I am not talking contributions I am talking commitment to the point that it hurts giving your heart and soul to the battle. That is the level of commitment most ranchers have for this fight. Your boycott will not work because most people don’t care. Read my blogs for what is in them. I applaud your passion vicki, and touche’ on the assumption. I will kill wolves if they kill my stock period. If that makes me evil so be it. I won’t bother your little blog world again. I did give an opposing point of view. That view is based on logic not emotion. Adios

  68. avatar vicki says:

    Too bad, seeing where people like Karen could have some how been productive.
    But to answer the question, yes I believe cattle and sheep cause irreperable harm.

    Robert H,
    I must say, you are something to behold. A mystery unravels. As I said before, THANK YOU, for your service to our country. And from the bottom of my heart, thank you for what you do to protect our wildlife and wild lands.
    I hope to some day find the fortitude within myself that you have.

  69. avatar Susan Rediger-Blackburn says:

    HELLO
    Cattle in the Upper Green to damage almost unbearable to see. Sheep are around doing the same. I feel Karen feelings for her lively hood yet believe her delivery is a bit lacking. Sorry you left Karen you might have been someone to touch. Even if small ways a first. I love the Ranchers in my County (well maybe not all):) Remember somehow she made it to this site and we ran her off (shame on us)! We are better than that. There are a lot of people with varying comments on the site all show be respected. I only see two maybe three (are there TWO vicki’s)? That have offered to show their faces to Sublette Co (currently 13 KNOWN kills) where are the rest of you? For one I shall take the invite I recvd and be in Jackson next weekend. Who will still be here? Action + Education= Results I again will pray tonite for everyone and our lost creatures. God save those who do not understand and the teachers Please keep teaching>

  70. avatar Susan Rediger-Blackburn says:

    Hello, to the right Vicki. Please tell me where your info comes from on our economy. See you have miss read or understand Pinedale. Jackson has out priced the land so where do you think the locals and others are coming? Yes here to Sublette C. Consrtuction is an all time high there is no daycare, housing (affordable)and the med clinics are being biult with state of the art equip.We cant find the staff to run them (scary to say the least being an RN).Besides the fact that the KNOWN total is !#13 Dead (I would bet my house Its nice too that isnt not an actual number). Maybe contact the invite I recd above and see if it open to all. I will be there. Action speaks louder the words (who said that anyway).

  71. avatar vicki says:

    Good morning Susan,
    I looked it up in several places. But maily http://www.sublette-se.org/fles/SubletteProfile11Feb08.pdf. The info about construction is based on the nation’s current economic trends..construction will likely continue to slump. Though builders may continue to build homes, they’ll have a hard time finding buyers.
    There are two Vickis/Vickys. One with a “Y” and one with an “I”.
    That medical staffing issue is huge, every where. I manage a clinic in Colorado. We’ve grown lately and had a hard time finding help too.
    I will be passing through your county in May and late August/September. I promise to take a good look around.
    You are likely right about the #13. Even if it was right then, it is likely higher now, sadly.
    You should get in touch with Mack, from the above post. He is honest, fair and very enthusiastic about promoting real change. I am anxiously awaiting the website and brochures. I have a few things in mind to get people involved.
    Take care.

  72. avatar YNP4me says:

    April 14, 2008

    [color=blue]Wolf found dead near Gardiner, Montana[/color]

    A wolf has been found dead near Gardiner. A Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks’ warden discovered the wolf on April 3rd.

    According to a press release, the wolf had mange and was seen most recently near Mammoth, Wyoming. The animal was collared, but the collar was not operational.

    Also, a landowner shot and killed a wolf on private land in the Madison Valley on April 5th. FWP personnel investigated the incident and determined that the shooting was legal.

    http://www.montanasnewsstation.com/Global/story.asp?S=8165780&nav=menu227_6

  73. avatar YNP4me says:

    Hi everyone!

    This was just added to the Earthjustice website!

    A slideshow on Yellowstone Wolf 253!

    http://www.earthjustice.org/library/features/tracking-hoppy-the-wolf.htm
    l

    ~ Vicky

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‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."

~ Edward Abbey

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