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Ralph Maughan

Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University with specialties in natural resource politics, public opinion, interest groups, political parties, voting and elections. Aside from academic publications, he is author or co-author of three hiking/backpacking guides, and he is President of the Western Watersheds Project.

50 Responses to States put wolf hunts on hold

  1. avatar jerry b says:

    Poor Buba, won’t be able to don his new camo outfit, climb on his ATV with a 6-pack , and go kill him a wolf.
    Guess he’ll have to settle for an elk ….anything to bolster his self-worth.

  2. avatar Save bears says:

    Jerry,

    I am not for a free for all, but living in Montana, I fear that what you call “Bubba” will still don his camo, jump on the ATV and shoot wolves! They of course will not be able to brag about it, but I don’t think the injunction will stop those who want to kill wolves from going ahead and doing it!

    I fear since the ruling, we are going to see far more illegal killing than we have ever before, if the conversations and innuendo, I have over head means anything!

    I really have strong concerns over the SSS mentality that runs in certain groups in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho…I pray, my feelings are un-founded.

  3. avatar Tim Z. says:

    The problem that most of the SSS types have is they forget the last S, the shut-up part. They like to brag. Rather than pay compensation to ranchers Defenders should pay rewards for turning in wolf poachers. A few payouts and tough prosecutions and it would slow the illegal killings.

  4. avatar Save bears says:

    Tim,

    Since the injunction, has been issued, I am very sorry to say, the Last S is being practiced quite effectively…There are always going to be those who cannot keep their mouth shut, but believe me, living in the environment, the attitudes have changed a whole bunch in the last few months…

    We had a get together a while back, here at the house, and when I mentioned I heard wolves howling a few nights before, things got REAL quiet..since the injunction, the whole attitude has changed among certain parties….I see FAR more rifles in gun racks now, than I did before, as well as far more pistols on hips when I am out and about..

    By the way, I have not heard the wolves again, since that day….which really makes me wonder, as I have heard them on and off for over 5 years now…

    I have grave concerns..

  5. avatar jerry b says:

    Save Bears…..I agree the illegal killings are a problem and have been even prior to Molloy’s ruling.
    There is little or no enforcement when it comes to killing wolves here in Montana. I know there is are investigations going on now about the wolf killed and hung from a sign in Helmville and another up by Thompson Falls.
    I’m looking into the number of prosecutions that have taken place over the last few years for illegal wolf kills…..I’m betting there are none.
    I spend lots of time fishing and hiking in areas where cattle are given priority over wildlife and in talking to ranchers, they’re pretty open to bragging about what they use the rifle in their truck for. I also know first hand that when you provide info, nothing gets done. It’s the good ole boy network.

  6. avatar HAL 9000 says:

    Most “Bubbas” don’t have the skill or ambition it will take to even find wolves once they get even a little wary. Heck, most of those guys have trouble even getting a deer or elk. They usually end up getting frustrated and blast squirrels.

    Most truely skilled, physically fit and ambitious hunters either have nothing against wolves in the first place, or take obeying the law seriously.

  7. avatar Save bears says:

    Your Naive Hal 9000, based on experience, I can say your very wrong..

  8. avatar HAL 9000 says:

    Save bears, c’mon… most of the guys saying “SSS” don’t have the ability or ambiton to get more than 300 yard from thier trucks.

    We’ll see SOME upsurge in illegal killings this fall, I’m sure. But hardly a wolf apocalypse.

  9. avatar Catbestland says:

    Is there any way to put pressure on local and regional law enforcement to step up the efforts on this matter. With all the SSS comments in the newspaper articles, it seems they could be approached with evidence of a real threat. There has to be some officers out there that are in support of the recent Court ruling. They should be sought out and approached individually.

  10. avatar Ryan says:

    Hal,
    Save bears is right, since the injunction SSS crowd has grown imensely and although you would like to live in the sterotype that most hunters are fat lazy gun toting inbred slobs who never leave there truck, your wrong espicially during elk seasons when if your less than 5 miles from the road expect company in orange hats.

    Cat,
    Wildlife officers funding is very low in most states, In 10 years of hunting the west (WY, WA, OR, ID) I have never been checked by a Fish and Game officer and only twice fishing (not very much considering I spend 70+ days on the water a year). Even with increased patrols, I see little that will stem the problem.

  11. avatar Don Riley says:

    From enlightened Wyoming:
    News from Wyoming:
    The new Wyoming “wolf coordinators” are NOT law enforcement people, unlike the bear management people.
    Why? No one seems to know including the game wardens.

    The “coordinators” are presently working with individual USFW people until such time as the memorandums of understanding between the states and the feds are completed in order to allow the states to “manage” wolves under the supervision of the feds. At the present times the feds are the law enforcement and the state coordinators are not allowed to dispatch wolves. No one knows if they will be allowed to do so under the new agreement.

    When “management” moves to the state, the “coordinators” will have to rely on the game warden in the district where a violation of the law occurs which is reported to or other wise discovered by the “coordinator” in the area.
    Presently the local coordinator is working in the upper East Fork area near Alkali Flats (read high desert) to trap wolves so they can be radio collared. They have not been allowed to go off road due to a fear they may catch a bear in their trap which I guess might be rather disconcerting. Their purpose is to identify pack structures and locate dens or rendezvous sites.
    However there are no wolves down here now. The elk are all up high. Most large herds have been seen by the bear guys flying tracking missions and the elk are above timberline near the drop off into the South Fork of the Shoshone.
    Rumor is the state guy does not like horses, hated pack trips he had to go on when he was a game warden (he retired as a warden to become a coordinator which is in a different state retirement plan because the position is not law enforcement) and the USFW agent has informed some locals that the wolves only kill cows and calves, not bulls, something she learned while doing her masters work in Oregon.
    It appears to me that the management plan, at least in Wyoming, is not off to a good start, but then again, is that surprising?

    Local warden is supportive with management to protect the elk herds and moose which are declining, not from predation, but drought (his words) and he is anti-cattle on public land. “It belongs to people and wildlife”.

  12. avatar HAL 9000 says:

    Ryan,
    I’m not assuming all hunters are obese Elmer Fudds. After all, I are one (a hunter, not Elmer Fudd… LOL)

    What I’m am saying is those that really would wantonly break the law and shoot wolves anyway also tend to be the type too lazy to get far from the truck.

  13. There are definitely going to kill wolves, like an informal hunting season. I’d bet Wildlife Service rouges are out there right now illegally killing wolves, and they are the real danger.

    The end result will be permanency of the wolf on the endangered species list, and a lot of new federal agents given right kind of new Administration. More federal agents will be good for all rare kinds of wildlife.

    This is not necessarily a bad outcome in the view of many.

  14. avatar Save bears says:

    HAL, What you don’t seem to realize, even the fit hunters, don’t feel they are breaking the law, they feel that they have been deceived and now it is time for them to take matters into their own hands, I have heard this in person from outfitters, sporting goods store operators and a host of hunters..as well as support industry people. I am seeing exactly what I feared when this started out..I will be interested to see what happens come next spring after the dust settles..

    Ralph as the hunting groups and the livestock interests come together in a common cause, I don’t think your going to see the wolves on the ESA list forever, and even if they are, your going to see a lot of wolves killed so much so, that they will again deserve to be on the list..were not talking about a mugger on front street in Detroit, we are talking very remote areas of the country, that very few get to see, let alone explore..

    I really hope my feelings and predictions are wrong, but after living here for a number of years, I fear, I may be closer to the truth than many want to accept.

    By the way, I agree with Ryan, I have been hunting for over 35 years in the west, and to date have Never had my lic checked, and the states I have hunted in are numerous..

  15. avatar Brian Ertz says:

    there was no move that wolf advocates could have made to prevent this – it was going to happen – it’s the nature of the anti-wolf crowd – violence. the question was whether enviros were going to allow it to be sanctioned at the federal level or not. now we have a federal district court preliminary injunction – perhaps we will prevail on the merits and acquire re-listing.

    in their zeal to “control” wolf population, managers have been framing the rate of population growth dishonestly (EX: IDFG still maintains 20% despite the count later in the season being more like 8% – remember ?) they’re using the earlier count rate to exaggerate numbers in a shallow play to their irrational constituency.

    This was short-sighted on their part. Now, if future counts/rates of growth turn out noticeably lower amidst a federal court injunction on delisting and belligerent calls for slaughter in spite of the order – that will wreak of illegal take – it’s what they’ve been promising. regardless of the source of the decreased rate of population growth – whether it be self-regulation or indeed the promised illegal take – that indication/suggestion of lawlessness would be enough political cover for a sympathetic federal intervention – and if the local good-ol’-boys try to push back (likely) that might be enough to garner enough attention for federal action/revocation draining the swamp of the federal resource and support these guys’ are depending on right now – ironically. they’ve dug this hole themselves.

    we need people to keep an eagle’s eye on those counts – it needs to be honest, scientifically sound and verifiable.

    it’s going to be really hard to think about if they start killing wolves.

  16. avatar Brian Ertz says:

    save bears – i have heard the same things you have. that chatter is all over the place.

  17. avatar Layton says:

    What a hoot!!

    People on this blog like to refer to “bubba” the hunter in the most stereotypical way they can — ATV’s, motel dwellers, Cabela’s queens, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

    BUT!!

    They are, by and large, scared out of their minds about what “bubba” is going to do to their pet poodle’s population numbers!!

    What does that say about these supposed wonderful powers of survival and intelligence that old Lupus is purported to have?? How come “bubba” will be able to do this??

    Then someone talks about the “violence” prone ANTIwolf folks.

    That is also a large crock!! If you want violence and death, just look at what these pooches (yes, they ARE dogs) do to just about every other animal in their realm — LOTS of VIOLENCE, coupled with gore and killing. Just who is on the violent side??

    You crowed and you giggled when the judge gave you the injunction — now let’s see what the results are. By the way, I’m betting on Save Bears’ take on the situation. Seems like everyone thought I was nuts when I said it last week.

    A LOT of us were more moderate BEFORE this latest development — there are considerably fewer on that fence now.

    CMIYC

  18. avatar mikarooni says:

    No. Layton, we don’t think you’re nuts for anything that you said last week. We knew you were nuts long before you said anything last week.

  19. avatar Save bears says:

    Layton,

    At this point in time, I don’t think there is a fence anylonger, there are those who are for, and there are those who are against…next spring will tell the story, but I feel, there will be a drastic reduction in the wolf population in the northern rocky mountains!

  20. avatar JEFF E says:

    Layton,
    So you and Tony from saveelk are going out for hamburgers and beer tonight to plan strategy?

  21. avatar vicki says:

    Okay, I beg to differ. Those law abiding hunters will stay law abiding. The others were probably breaking the law in some capacity all along.
    Having a law in place won’t make a good person an insta-ass. The guys who ramble on about taking things into their own hands had planned to all along ….until they thought the law would permit them to shoot wolves on sight. Law abiding hunters adapt their hunt to what is legal.

    I also want to say that I have been asked for my license and tags. I have also been asked to prove I could shoot the rifle I carry (sexism at it’s finest.) Imagine the ranger’s suprise when I not only shot the 308, I shot it very darn well.

    People’s nature won’t change because a law is made, those who break laws will continue to do so…those who respect it will uphold it.

    Layton,
    You call killing prey violence, I call it eating and surviving. It is nature, not premeditated murder. Not violence, just eating.

    Hey, morons running around needlessly killing wolves may be good for some folks needing gainful employment. Bank on our tax dollars providing more law enforcement to stop it…maybe in the long run Wyoming will get some more rangers out of the deal.

  22. avatar Save bears says:

    Vicky,

    Beg to differ all you want, you don’t have wolves in Colorado, I am just speaking based on what I see and hear every single day..and unfortunately, I know the people of Montana, they felt they had a good plan, they tried to sever from Wyoming and Idaho, now time will tell if they were serious, I have watched this evolve for many years now, and I don’t have much hope that people won’t do what they say they are going to do..

    Time will tell

    (And remember I worked for FWP and have heard things for many years now!)

  23. avatar Save bears says:

    By the way, I have a great fear, if Federal Rangers come in, and I will not go into that right now, but that would pretty much start an all out war, I am not joking folks, this is becoming serious business!

  24. avatar Mack P. Bray says:

    Layton says: “Then someone talks about the “violence” prone ANTIwolf folks. That is also a large crock!! If you want violence and death, just look at what these pooches (yes, they ARE dogs) do to just about every other animal in their realm — LOTS of VIOLENCE, coupled with gore and killing. Just who is on the violent side??”

    Ah, yeah, some of the anti-wolf folk seem to be violent – Ron Gillette, for example.

    Wolves are violent, no doubt about it. That’s the way mother nature is ~ she produces violent hurricanes, volcanoes, lightening, grizzlies, etc.

    So what.

    Layton, give it up, dude. You’re not especially intelligent, logical, observant or entertaining.

    If you could be more entertaining, I think you’d be welcome here.

    Perhaps I should just consider your comments to be jokes. Maybe that would give them more entertainment value.

    Mack P. Bray
    Wildlife Watchers

  25. avatar Save bears says:

    Mack,

    You may consider them jokes, but as a person that is deeply involved in this issue, I don’t and the Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks, don’t consider them jokes….unfortunately there is a line being drawn in the sand, and it is being drawn in the sand despite what the Federal courts have ruled!

  26. avatar JEFF E says:

    what will happen is some(or a lot) of wolves will be poached, some will be arrested for that and a judge will slam them to make an example and the majority left will say oh shit, maybe I should rethink. After all a conviction would also mean in addition to fines and jail, but also confiscation of vehicles, rifles etc. It would also be tried in federal court so would avoid the good old boy situation that could happen in a lower court

  27. avatar Jay says:

    Hey Layton, make up your mind. I thought wolves were going to be impossible to hunt, and there’d be no way that hunters could achieve state quotas through sport harvest. Now you’re insinuating that your wolf hatin’ buddies are going to rise up against the dreaded wolf and lay waste to the population. So which is it going to be? Talk about a flip flop–McCain would be proud of you.

  28. Folks have been talking about “good ol boys” and violent “anti-wolf people.”

    These are pretty indefinite. I wonder what are the demographics of anti-wolf hunter (or whatever) who would poach a wolf? Are these right-wingers? Are they working class men (and women)? Are they well off equity refugees who take on an attitude as camouflage?

    What are their social characteristics?

  29. avatar JEFF E says:

    When I said “good old boy” situation I was thinking of the incident in Ashton where the local DA declined to prosecute.
    As for the rest I think one would see a cross section of population demographics with maybe access to and proximity of wolf populations a major contributing factor

  30. avatar Catbestland says:

    I believe we are seeing the exact same reaction from the exact same type of people who spawned the KKK in the post Civil War South and the retribution against Civil Rights workers in the 50s and 60s. They imagine that outsiders are forcing an agenda upon them that threatens (albeit imagined) their way of life. They feel they have the right and the duty to react in the way that they do. I saw one comment that even compared the anti-wolf view with Rosa Parks’ refusal to give up her seat. They simply can’t get it through their heads that the issues effect more than themselves. I agree with Save Bears. This could get real serious real quick.

  31. avatar Save bears says:

    Those who are against wolves, feel deceived, they are mad, and they will do something to make themselves feel better…there is no specific social characteristics, there is a broad range of those who are for, and those who are against..there is an upswelling of backlash building in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho, and it crosses all boundaries, I have spoke to those in suits and those in jeans, that feel betrayed over what has happened since 1995..

    My specific area of study, when I got my degree was bison and elk, but I also have been exposed to many that are deeply in the wolf industry, and I can say, there is a boiling point that is coming to the surface..

    Until such time as people stop the “bubba” and “Redneck” mantra, I don’t have much hope that there will be any compromise, I don’t believe that we will see a day, that there is understanding….

    Those who are against will continue to hate those they consider “enviros” and there are those who will continue to hate those that are “bubbas”

    There has to be a bridge built over this rift, and I am not sorry to say, I don’t understand or have much hope there is a bridge strong enough at this point in time..

    I can say, there will have to be a bridge built, or there is no hope that this will be solved…I am often reminded, a war is only won, when you take the time to really understand your enemy..and embrace him..

  32. This set of attitudes is not randomly generated, Save Bears. There is is some characteristic that unites these folks other than their attitude.

    One can talk about “understanding the enemy,” but not if you don’t know who they are.

    I have my ideas, but won’t put them out for consideration for now.

  33. avatar Save bears says:

    Ralph,

    I have been surprised numerous times on who is for and who is against wolves, I look forward to seeing your research on this, what I find amazing, is neither side, has really been able to explain why they are for or why they are against, and those I have talked to, comprise those in farm fields, to those who work on Wall Street…

    So, Again, I will be interested to see your theories

  34. avatar vicki says:

    Save Bears,

    I have no doubt that there will be (already have been) a few looney tunes that take the situation to an extreme. There always is. However, that does not negate that they were more than likely unlawful to begin with.

    As for how serious it will be, well allowing these crack pots to evoke fear is giving them power they are not worthy of having. They are, as Cat has pointed out, a few degrees over cooked in their imaginary world where they claim to be victims. Furthermore, they are much like the kkk. They will attempt to use fear and terror to scare people into changing their stand on things.

    Being consumed with worry is fruitless and feeds their hysteria band-wagon tactics.We can only deal with what we know, what has already happened and what we can control. This is a situation where we are forced to wait and see.

    FYI, having wolves in Colorado has got sqwat to do with anything. That is simple logistics. It doesn’t have bearing. That is the same backward arguement used by anti-wolfers who say “if you don’t like it, go back to California and hug a tree.” It is poop…nada…irrelevant. This isn’t just about people who live there, it is about the rights of the people of a nation being found to legally out-weigh the rights of states within that nation.

    Do you honestly believe that wolves are the only animal to insight ignorant behaviors? Cougars, bears, snakes… wolves just reside in the NATIONAL forefront at present. They are not the only species to have been there though.

    I am no biologist, never claimed to be. I don’t live in Montana or Wyoming….though I have just as much ownership of wolves as anyone who lives there does. I have heard these same things here. I hear them about when wolves do come, about bears, about lions. The people who would do, or encourage, the illegal activities you fear are not civilized and have no regard for the laws of this country.

    I often defer to Ralph, and Brian for political insight, as their expertise in those areas lends relevence to their input. But even I know that I am a female who falls into the category of the average American voter. Therefore, my opinion is likely of more value to the powers that be than you think. If they can’t persuade me….they will need to figure out how to, I am representative of the public at large. Shooting wolves illegally will not get me to change my vote on laws protecting wolves. It will just piss me off and strengthen my resolve to protect wolves. These people are just shooting themselves in the foot. The more they cause the demise of a species..the more the species will be protected.

    I am NOT representative of the anti-wolf populations in the WY/ID/MT states…but then again, those people are the national minority.

    Having a degree never made me think someone was right, someone breaking the law with a gun won’t either. In fact, scare tactics will get you the opposite of what you want with most people I know. Shoot a bunch of wolves illegally and I will vote to make punishment worse, not allow for more killing of wolves.

    Again, I feel there will be some idiots who go vigalante on the issue. But the law is the law for a reason, these people are no less accountable just because they feel their opinions out-weigh the rights of the masses.

    I too hope you are wrong, but I think we all expect some fall out to happen.

    Please though, everyone, don’t lump all hunters together. That infuriates me. Most hunters aren’t this “Bubba” being spoken of. They are now, and have always been, law abiding and respectful of nature. Not everyone who hunts is some bafoon who wants to be all Rambo in a tree waiting to kill every wolf in the country.

    The dumb butts who would do that are the same dumb butts who would have done in two years ago. Now they just want to argue that they have “been done wrong” by the court, instead of by the voters who allowed wolves to come back in the first place.

    I don’t fear all Islamic people just because Bin Laden was a terrorist, and I don’t fear all Montanans are now going to go out and stalk wolves. I hope that Save Bears fears are wrong.

  35. avatar vicki says:

    Ralph,
    Are you actually researching the social inclination of people in regard to wolves? That is a fascinating subject.

    I find it very interesting that people who tend to have love for similar things, and have many characteristics in common, become so polarized about wolves.

    The guy up the street sees the west as romantic and having machismo and mystique. He sports a tattoo of a lone wolf on his arm as a symbol of his wild male independence and strength. He sees the west as the promise land of days gone by, a page out of history. He reveres the cowboy as a noble do-gooder who was chivalrous and a white knight in wranglers. To him a wolf is part of all of that, like the bison and the elk, and wild horses.

    But, you ask the cowboy on the acreage a few miles away, and he says the west is sacred, a part of history and an honorable way of life. The cowboy way is to always do the honorable thing, no matter the cost to himself. He would say his world is one with the west, one with what is truly wild, he belongs in the wide open spaces. He would say that a hand full of wolves would end all of that, and he sees the wolf as a demonic symbol.

    Funny, huh? Two similar people, two similar loves…two extremely different takes on what is right and true.

  36. avatar Save bears says:

    Vicky,

    The only reason, I have made the statements I have, is because, again, I am working for an agency temporarily, with a very large grant to study this, and have been quite surprised at what I am finding out, really being in the middle, I am really not fearful, but I am concerned based on what I have found out, by just being out and about, and talking to those who feel this affects them..you have one vote, they have one gun, I don’t know which is more powerful, but I do know what is more direct and final..votes change things over time, guns change things in an instant…guns are not the long term solution, but they do have a certain finality to them, votes are a long term solutions, but they really have no finality to them..they can always be overturned

    I have my job until next June, I will be able to make more definitive conclusions then..but I do have concern because of what I am finding out..I am quite surprised at how many are against wolves, and saddened..

    I can say this, this fight is not over, it is going to take a long time, before this rift is crossed..

  37. avatar Save bears says:

    By the way the KKK killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, yes they were WRONG, but those people are still dead, don’t underestimate your adversary, you will always be surprised at what they can do..

  38. avatar jerry b says:

    Save bears…since you seem deeply entrenched within Montana FWP and also working for “the agency”, I assume you’ll be at the commission hearing Aug 5th in Helena. I’ll be the very unpopular guy video taping the hearing…say hello …… let’s talk.
    .
    Also…what’s your definition of “the wolf industry”/ And what exactly are Federal Rangers?

  39. avatar jerry b says:

    Ralph
    You asked…..”What are their social characteristics”?..
    They fear and or hate change, cultural diversity, including blacks, gays, Mexican Americans, Native Americans, wolves, grizzlies, lions, education etc….all of which gives Montana the dubious distinction of being culturally retarded.
    They accept the “status quo” and anything outside of that is a threat.

  40. avatar Save bears says:

    Jerry,

    No, I will not be at that meeting, I will be in South Carolina on that day working on another program..one that concerns Black Bear situations..

    I am not currently working for the FWP, I did work with them in the past, and was ousted because I would not bend information to fit an agenda..I have been hired by an independent agency to do research on this issue

    As far as I know, the wolf industry, is both sides of the issue, those who are for and those who are against…but there is an industry devoted to wolves…

    Federal Rangers(using Vicky’s term, as I did above), are Federal Law Enforcement officers who will be enforcing the law in the future, as many who are involved in this issue “think” will be put in force to stop the wanton killing of wolves and enforce the ESA, but as far as I can see, no matter who gets elected in November, there will no more enforcement than we have seen for the last 13 years…

    And please don’t get me wrong, I am not in favor of destroying wolves, but I have concerns based on what my research has revealed to me so far

    There is a long road to hoe coming up, I do hope it all comes out for the best in the end…but only time will tell…

    Just to add, I don’t work for a state or federal agency, I have been hired by an independent agency to work on this issue..I have already burned my bridges with the state and the fed’s..

  41. avatar jerry b says:

    Save bears……”you wouldn’t bend information to fit an agenda”.
    I see so many people working for these agencys who think the opposite. Glad to see you had a conscience. I can’t imagine how they look at themselves or how they face their families.
    I admire what you did.

  42. avatar Save bears says:

    Jerry,

    Despite what many think now a days, there are quite a few of us, the will not bend the science..I am just happy to be employed again for a least a while, because it has been a hassle and I still may loose my military pension over it, that is if the state has its way..I have no political agenda, and will only report on what I see as fact and can be documented, that is why I went to school and got me degree..I know from experience that bending facts to support an agenda, will always come back to bite you in the ass…

  43. avatar Peter Kiermeir says:

    Ralph,
    I hope one day somebody will sponsor some research work on the sociological and psychological (maybe even sexual) aspects of poaching and the SSS term (which is also known here, the translation is “schießen, schaufeln, schweigen”.)
    I always wondered what makes the typical wolf hater, the typical poacher, the typical SSS guy, since I discovered a remarkable similarity in character (and looks) e.g. between your Ron Gillette and our local equivalent Mr. Bachmann. We all have our stereotypes of “the others”. But to what extent do our stereotypes meet the reality?
    Are there “categories” ? I could offer a few to start with:
    The “dirty old men” type (seeking a substitute for those expensive blue pills)
    The notorious “vandal ” (whose only interest in life is to do something illegal and to destroy something),
    The “natural born killer” (loves to shoot at moving targets – not prefering a certain species, a poor coyote or squirrel will already do! )
    The “hunter” or “hero” type (so deeply frustrated by his life, that he needs a picture with a dead bear or wolf or cougar just as a confirmation that he is top predator, every time his wife has an argument with him – and that means: daily!)
    We are not talking here about those poor guys found mainly on third world level, who just try to protect their handfull of goats or sheep, we are talking about the offsprings of our civilisation offsprings!

  44. avatar vicki says:

    Save Bears,

    Good luck with the research. I have known all along how hated wolves are. I know the numbers of people who hate them is high, but not as high as those who don’t.

    No fight is ever final. As long as people, any people or person, still have feelings…there is the potential for a fight. WWII has been over for a while now, and yet there are still nazi sympathizers and those who claim to be neo-nazis. The point is that ignorant behavior will never end, and you will battle it forever. Sad, yet true.

    By the way, I never used the term “Federal Rangers”. I said our -meaning federal, as in all American’s who pay- tax dollars will be used to fund further protection. That is not only true now, but will be true far into the future. I was referring to the need for further enforcement if all the SSS we fear will occur is a large detrement to wolves, and the need for more law enforcement (Or better, more honest, willing to actually enforce…).

    The SSS attitude has prevailed among certain groups for ages. It is a reaction and agenda based largely on fear and the need to “click” with some group. Though these people may truly believe they have a right to SSS, they base their belief on the unfounded and incorrect assumption that their rights are somehow more releavant or important than everyone else’s. Those who behave in such a way negate this country’s foundation and what Jefferson created when he first thought to institue three branches of government. Creation, Interpretation and Enforcement. These people may not think the law works for them, but the law is the law, and we are all obligated to it.

    You are correct that I have only one vote, but the point is that I am very much like the majority of people who do. So from that stand point, I can assure you that these people may kill some wolves, maybe even a lot of wolves, but that will make it no more legal….and it will make many more people conscious to the need to protect them….with votes.

    Keep in mind that animals such as elephants, gorillas, chimps, tigers etc. did not get the protection they currently have until poaching and illegal killings fueled the need to save them and the passion to do so.

    We can’t plead ignorance here, those of us who wanted wolves all along knew that with the reintroduction would come a surge of hate and killing of wolves. People will always need something or someone to hate, for these folks, wolves are just that.

    Yes, guns are quite final. but those who uphold the law have them too.

  45. avatar vicki says:

    p.s. I am not shocked at the numbers of people who hate wolves. Perhaps it is because I firmly believe that the things that seperates us from animals is not our thumbs, and not our ability to be logical (primates have these too.) I believe we are seperate because of our propensity to do things at greater levels than all other species. We create things at great levels and destroy them at great levels. We love at great levels, and hate at great levels, we procreate at great levels, we mourne at great levels, we organize at great levels….and no other animal can kill at the great levels that man does. Nope, no suprise here.

  46. avatar Ryan says:

    Save Bears is right, in watching the hunting bulletin boards across the west, up until the reversal there were several moderates across the board on the issue. Not so much anymore, its everyone from the bubbas to the rich investment bankers who hunt.

  47. avatar JEFF E says:

    Ryan,
    and most are just working there jaws.

  48. avatar Save bears says:

    Jeff E,

    I hope most are just jacking their jaws, but this time, I am not so sure..

  49. avatar JEFF E says:

    I looked around a little bit on the Bowsite web site. It ‘s the one that Layton spends some time on using the screen name DDD. (gives you good insight to what that clown is really about).
    Any way they have state forums from all across the country and I was kinda surprised that Idaho seems to have the most people on it that bring up wolves, even more than Montana and Idaho.
    I really do believe that most people really are jawing.
    there are going to be some or a lot of wolves poached and there will be someone or someones that the feds will make an example of if it goes on to long or starts to get out of hand such as publicly flaunting the law. A few 40,000 dollar pick-ups confiscated should get the message across.

  50. avatar Layton says:

    Well Gee Whiz Jeffy,

    Did you really think that you were unveiling some big secret here?? Seems to me that I TOLD you that, in an Email, when you were pretending to have a logical discussion with me.

    ” It ’s the one that Layton spends some time on using the screen name DDD. (gives you good insight to what that clown is really about).”

    By the way, what sort of “insight” do you refer to here?? DDD stands for 3d, which is a short term for three dimensional, which is a type of archery tournament which I have a pretty good aptitude for — hence the handle. Does that REALLY trip some sort of an “insight switch” with you??

    “So you and Tony from saveelk are going out for hamburgers and beer tonight to plan strategy?”

    If you have really been reading the Bowsite, you would know just how stupid that remark is — I put saveelk on the exact same plane as you — the one on the bottom, where the whale crap is.

    Mickarooni, Mr. BLAA,

    Do you guys have anything to say about this whole thing — or is your total contribution just personal attacks?? Have at it, seems like most of them reach the second or third grade recess level of intelligence.

    Yep, I know I’m stooping to the same level, but I won’t stay there, you folks seem to permanently inhabit that area.

    By the way, PLEASE, just keep hanging on to the theory that folks that don’t like wolves are either stupid or compulsively violent or have really low foreheads — it will keep the “wolfie” crowd just where the “anti” crowd wants them — in the dark.

    CMIYC

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Quote

‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."

~ Edward Abbey

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