Palin is not a typical Alaskan-

Salon Magazine has a report on Palin as one kind of Alaskan — the kind that came north during the oil boom and changed the state’s culture for the worse (in the opinion of the Alaskan author of the piece). She is far from being “Jane, six pack;” and even her accept in not really Alaskan.

Sarah Palin: The view from Alaska. By Nick Jans.

Amid “Troopergate” and other government scandals, including killing wolf pups, an Alaskan writer explains why the Palin phenomenon rings hollow in his home state.

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About The Author

Ralph Maughan

Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University with specialties in natural resource politics, public opinion, interest groups, political parties, voting and elections. Aside from academic publications, he is author or co-author of three hiking/backpacking guides, and he is President of the Western Watersheds Project.

101 Responses to Sarah Palin: The view from Alaska

  1. avatar bobcaesar says:

    A very interesting & frightening story! This “thing” could be the Free World’s most powerful person?!
    Be sure to look over the “related stories” at the end.

  2. avatar timz says:

    what’s even more frightening is she has an 80% approval rating in her state. I was in alaska this summer and never heard a local say a bad thing about her.

  3. timz,

    In the most recent Alaska poll, her rating had dropped to 68%

  4. avatar SmokyMtMan says:

    Nick Jans is a very good writer, and he put together a very compelling and well-written article on Palin. While I was very confident McCain was going to win this thing, I will be ecstatic if I was wrong and Obama moves into the White House.

    Reading this article, I got the impression she is basically the Alaskan female version of W.

    And that is the last thing our country needs.

  5. avatar Monty says:

    Palin is a typical right wing nut who rejects rejects all science that doesn’t confirm her “witchcraft” beliefs, rejects the “certainty” that their can be no liberty without restraint, defines “patriotism” with slogens, doesn’t understand the reality that we live in a finite world with finite resources and believes that it is un-American to question the status quo.

  6. avatar TimothyB says:

    Monty…I’m one of those typical “right wing nuts” you hate so much. But I do have some “conservation” blood in me. That “conservationist blood” is slowly being replaced by a “screw it attitude” because of comments like yours.

    I come to this website to learn and I’m finding that wildlife news is becoming just one of those “anti anything that hints at being a conservative/republican” website. I can go to Move-On.org for crap like that.

    Basically you broad brush a whole group of people based on a few with statements like “typical right wing nut who rejects rejects all science that doesn’t confirm her “witchcraft” beliefs”. And crap like that makes me think you don’t really care to change this world for the better. You’re worse than the Rush Limbaugh’s of this world.

    I’m come back in a few weeks to see if the “crap” comments have slowed down and turned into a discussion of wildlife, nature and outdoors instead of blind hatred.

    Yeah, yeah, I know…you never said that or didn’t mean this or that. I pull the common sense card when it should be pulled and that card has been pulled. Later……………….

  7. avatar Barb says:

    Timothy,

    I have to agree with you. But BOTH sides are guilty of it — it is a real problem and it’s too bad really as it prevents real communication as people instantly “label” people or put them in one of two categories — either “right wing nut” or “crazy environmental wacko.”

    As soon as some people find out I am for the reintroduction of wolves, etc., they instantly label me and say “You must be for socializing health care… you must be for….. xyz… you must be for a..b… c….

    People need to start actually listening and stop reacting so quickly.

    I consider myself a fiscal independent. So I often find that neither side can relate with me………

  8. avatar Barb says:

    As far as her “approval” rating, there have been credible articles from Alaska on how citizens in Alaska are afraid to say anything negative about anyone in government as they fear retaliation.

    It’s kinda like a “small town” type of fear — the people in power vs. the “regular Joe Six Packs.”

    I don’t dislike Palin because she’s a Republican — I dislike her promotion of aerial hunting and her extreme views on abortion.

    I think she’s deceptive too, trying to act like she’s for “women” when she is clearly for “evangelical” women.

  9. avatar john weis says:

    Typical right wing nut actually fits Palin and some of her comrades. This is not to say all right wing conservatives are nuts, as Timothy, you seem to think. Lots of right wing conservatives are willing to listen to science instead of muzzle it, they are wiling to engage in dialogue instead one sided hysterical ranting and they are capable of seeing two sides of a story instead of just Rush’s point of view. I value those kind of conservatives because you can work with them and develop compromises that can satisfy both sides of an issue. Right wing nuts (and left wing nuts) that can’t listen ’cause they are screaming too much are a drag.

  10. With all that is going on, conservatives are going to splinter. Conservatism will always be with us, but not kind that came to power with Ronald Reagan.

    Liberalism will change too. I think the neoliberalism of Clinton and crew will die with the international financial crisis. Perhaps we will see a movement back to economic democracy if the government acquires enough financial assets . . . and this under George Bush! (the acquisition of the assets, not the economic democracy).

  11. avatar Barb says:

    Ralph,

    I am not 100% this is true, but I’ve heard more people are actually turning Democratic as the years go by. I don’t have any sources right now but can look it up.

    The “conservatism” under Ronald Reagan was not really true fiscal conservatism — our deficit was sky high, and there was little personal responsibility. Ronald Reagan was far from an intellectual and “true” conservatism is always based on intellectualism.

    This new (and scary!) “breed” of conservatives have morphed into an “In-your-face” extreme NRA advocates (Tim McVeigh), phoney and hypocritical evangelism (actually similar to extreme Muslims), “tinkering with social issues” (ex:abortion) as ironically, Rush Limbaugh constantly has accused Democrats of!

    Rush (and other conservative talk radio show hosts), Sean Hannity, and Fox News are the new “leaders” of this movement — not anyone technically in politics as it’s easier to sway opinion and “get things done” when you’re not bound by an actual democratic/legislative process.

  12. avatar vicki says:

    Barb,
    Funny that you mention McVeigh, he actually had been known to have a huge disagreement with governemet infringing on freedoms he felt were American. The thing that seperated him from many others was that he acted violently in the name of his beliefs. Was he a murderer? Yes, but I would hardly question his sanity.
    Just so everyone knows, I am not at all defending what he did. I just know many people have felt the same way he did about government infringing on citizens rights in the name of justice.
    What seperates people from fanatics is the tactics they employ to get their point across or to force people to do things their way.
    I’d say Palin falls into the latter group. She is willing to manipulate the truth, through out veiled racist accusitions, and play on the sympathies of those who aren’t informed enough to see through her. She does it while crying out that she is an advocate of the people, wanting to right the world’s wrongs. Mean while, her true agenda is luming in the back ground….revert, revert, revert. She may not be employing violence, be she is no less guilty of being a fanatic.
    No abortion or federally funded contraception, no man caused global warming, no humane regulations on hunting, no need to limit drilling or protect habitat and species that are endangered. God is her justification for all things. She can do wrong, but will oust anyone else who does wrong.

    What does that really say about her? She is a politician.
    Should we expect more?

    I am not suprised that her rating dropped in Alaska…after all, her skeletons are now being dragged out of the closet. Perhaps this is a chance for Alaskans to have a real voice and liberate themselves from Palin’s rule.

  13. avatar timz says:

    john weis -“Lots of right wing conservatives are willing to listen to science instead of muzzle it, they are wiling to engage in dialogue instead one sided hysterical ranting”

    John is right, I have heard Newt Gingrich say on several occasions the Republican party has “failed miserably on the environment.”

  14. avatar Barb says:

    Vicki,

    Re: Timothy McVeigh. You would “hardly question his sanity?”

    Vicki, are you serious?!

    Highly intelligent people often go over the edge (insane) as McVeigh did.

    His original ideas (whatever they were) may have been good; but he went too far — instead of working in a peaceful way to get his point across, he chose to act violently.

    I would absolutely question his sanity — blowing up a building to prove a point sure seems like fanatacism to me–To me at least, When you go “over the edge” that IS the definition of “insanity.”

  15. avatar Barb says:

    Well, Vicki, looks like you’re right…. the prison psychiatrist said he was basically “a decent fellow with a lot of rage built up.”

    “McVeigh claimed that the bombing was revenge for “what the U.S. government did at Waco and Ruby Ridge.”[84] McVeigh visited Waco during the standoff, where he spoke to a news reporter about his anger over what was happening there.[5]

    McVeigh frequently quoted and alluded to the white supremacist novel The Turner Diaries. It described acts of terrorism similar to the one he carried out. While McVeigh openly rejected the book’s racism (a roommate said that McVeigh was not a racist and was basically indifferent to racist matters),[85] he claimed to appreciate its interest in firearms. Photocopies of pages sixty-one and sixty-two of The Turner Diaries were found in an envelope inside McVeigh’s car. These pages depicted a fictitious mortar attack upon the U.S. Capitol in Washington.[86]

    In interviews before his execution, documented in American Terrorist, McVeigh stated he decapitated an Iraqi soldier with cannon fire on his first day in the war and celebrated. But he said he later was shocked to be ordered to execute surrendering prisoners, and to see carnage on the road leaving Kuwait City after U.S. troops routed the Iraqi army. In interviews following the Oklahoma City bombing, McVeigh said he began harboring anti-government feelings during the Gulf War. In 1998, McVeigh while in prison wrote an essay that criticized US foreign policy towards Iraq as being hypocritical.

    Anyway, this is off -track.

    The administration has said that Iraq has no right to stockpile chemical or biological weapons (“weapons of mass destruction”) — mainly because they have used them in the past.
    Well, if that’s the standard by which these matters are decided, then the U.S. is the nation that set the precedent. The U.S. has stockpiled these same weapons (and more) for over 40 years. The U.S. claims that this was done for deterrent purposes during the “Cold War” with the Soviet Union. Why, then is it invalid for Iraq to claim the same reason (deterrence) — with respect to Iraq’s (real) war with, and the continued threat of, its neighbor Iran?

    If Saddam is such a demon, and people are calling for war crimes charges and trials against him and his nation, why do we not hear the same cry for blood directed at those responsible for even greater amounts of “mass destruction” — like those responsible and involved in dropping bombs on the cities mentioned above?
    The truth is, the U.S. has set the standard when it comes to the stockpiling and use of weapons of mass destruction.[87]

  16. avatar vicki says:

    Hold on, I never said he was decent.(never said I agree with his actions) I said he may have had ideas that others agree with, but what sets him apart are his actions. That is my entire point. Your actions set you apart and make you a fanatic.
    As far as his sanity, he was very lucent, knew exactly what he was doing, and formulated very intellegent thought processes…but he was a fanatic. He felt he was doing what he needed to, and didn’t feel he was wrong. We can disagree with him, but in his eyes, he was justified and he had engaged in an act of war against a government that had betrayed him. He was so sane about it, he ended up being executed before he would have, at his own request I believe, having never apologized for why he did what he did. He believed in it strongly enough to die for it. But in the opinion of the majority, his opinion was incorrect. What he did far over shadowed WHY he did it. That made his efforts a bit fruitless.
    I am not saying Palin is a terrorist. But she does use fear tactics to manipulate things. Her intellect, use of her intellect, commitment to her stand, and the fact that she is absolutely sane are what make her so dangerous.
    Lots of intellegent people are fanatics…but they are sane. Not all fanatics act with violence, but they can be just as harmful.
    As far as our hypocracy in Iraq, or on any foreign policy, well..entire other issue.
    But I can still say that I think that Sarah Palin is a fanatic, she takes her views to an extreme. That is my opinion, and I am not asking anyone to agree. But as I see it, she chooses her words very carefully, and tries to provoke fear of Obama to get what she wants….that is the basic pricipal behind terrorism and the motivation is fanaticism. (The two are only slightly different.) Use fear to manipulate, yep, I can see why people would vote for a ticket with her on it….sarcasm intended.
    Anyway, back to the subject….the people of Alaska may not have been as informed before, but they are getting a quick education on Palin, compliments of her campaign and the attention to her. That may make them among the last to know, but atleast now they seem to be starting to see through the fog and can make out what she really stands for. It is about time.

  17. avatar Barb says:

    I really do not think Sarah Palin is intelligent though. I don’t think she is completely dumb, but not very educated or informed.

    I do think she is cunning — blind ambition is way different than true intelligence.

    No, I didn’t say YOU thought McVeigh was decent. His prison shrink did.

  18. avatar Barb says:

    I wonder if Palin has to go back to Alaska, will they reject her?

  19. avatar vicki says:

    One sure thing, they will know more about her now.
    She is a very intellegent person,that makes her even more dangerous. She is smart enough to be persuasive.

    Even if she is rejected, she still has enough time in office to continue being destructive. I wonder if ‘troopergate’ would be considered criminal or cause for recall.

  20. avatar timz says:

    “I wonder if ‘troopergate’ would be considered criminal or cause for recall”

    Highly unlikely because there is a whole lot more to the story than we’re hearing. Virtually every local I talked to while I was up there this summer think she is in the right on that one.

  21. avatar Alan Gregory says:

    Nope, not cause for criminal charges or recall. But here in the Northeast, voters would react to “troopergate” in a fashion very dissimilar to how Alaskans appear to have.

  22. avatar vicki says:

    Considering that the bipartisan panel appointed just found her guilty of abuse of power, perhaps she should do the right thing….leave office-quit. She should take a spoon full of her own medicine and practice what she so stearnly preaches….
    Maybe now her ‘I am an open book’ persona will have lost it’s luster. I know it certainly solidifies my resolve that McCain has flawed jusgement in who he chooses to put his faith in.
    Sarah Palin was the ‘wolf in sheeps clothing’ (excuse the pun) she warned about us having in Washington, all along. Maybe while she is busy getting corruption out of Alaska, she should get it out of the presidential race too. I think this is yet another example of how Palin places her personal misconceptions of right and wrong into her use of authority.
    I wish that this assured me that the state of Alaska will be turning it’s head to a greener perspective, but I think that mind-set is a generational obstacle…and Alaska has some growing up to do.

  23. avatar jimbob says:

    While we argue about “Right Wing” and “liberal”, conservatism vs. tax-all, abortion, gay rights, etc. I believe the real problem gets overlooked. I’ve watched the Bush Republicans for these 8 years. They love to play these issues and people against each other. I honestly believe that they are a bunch of crooks who hijacked the government to make a well-connected group of associates of Cheney and a few others rich, everything else be damned! Look at the policies and procedures that were put in place that conflict with true conservative values. Nobody batted an eye within the Republican Party at first—now they are just beginning to question their own party as everything falls apart. Look at how they played the political parties against each other. At no time in history have politics been this divisive. Why? Should it really matter who ends up in office? Shouldn’t the good of the American people be the ultimate goal of any politician? Anybody could see that when special interests are represented the majority get the shaft! It doesn’t matter what has happened—THEY’VE ALL MADE THEIR MONEY! Their goal was to use the government to reward themselves and make a pile of money (putting the fox in the henhouse, so to speak). Also, notice the last group to get in on the government handout—Wall Street. They took care of energy comapanies, then defense contractors, now wall street. Did I miss anybody? Probably insurance companies were in there somewhere, too. Remember when Bushco wanted to hand Wall Street all of our Social Security money four years ago? LOOK WHAT JUST HAPPENED!

    By the way, much has been said about Bush being resposible for all of this. He was just the point man. There was a group pulling his strings. He may be a moron, but he didn’t orchestrate the mess that we’re in. Those same people are still in control of the Republican party–and may look to control the Democrats. How does all of this tie in to conservation? Nobody in their right mind is against true “conservation” except for the greedy bastards who make money soiling, despoiling, and abusing the environment. Be wary of anybody who tells you otherwise.

  24. avatar jimbob says:

    Anybody notice the headline on MSN today about “no money being available to fight global warming” or how politicians will never pass laws against business in this economic climate. Think the Bushies got what they wanted? I also didn’t mention how Free marketers (Bush and co.) hate the gov’t. and that the best way to bring it down is to starve it of money (goes way back to Reaganomics). Think they’ve done that?

  25. avatar timz says:

    Top contributions to politicians by Fannie May, Freddie Mac–
    1. Dodd, Christopher J-S
    D-CT
    $133,900
    2. Kerry, John-S
    D-MA
    $111,000
    3. Obama, Barack-S
    D-IL
    $105,849
    4. Clinton, Hillary-S
    D-NY
    $75,550
    All Democrats. The point being they are all to blame, both parties, so in turn we are all to blame because we continually elect the same crooks over and over. Congress has a 9% approval rating yet I would wager 80% of incumbents running for re-election go back and keep on shafting the American people. And those who expect the new messiah of “Change” to really change anything are going to be awfully disappointed.

  26. avatar Monty says:

    TimothyB: I agree with your remarks about my overly harsh remarks about “right wing nuts’. Everyone should more civil, thanks for reminding me.

  27. avatar Mike says:

    Go Obama! Time to put and end to the failed conservative movement.

  28. avatar Barb says:

    The “real conservatives” have been hijacked by the far right wing evangelicals and criminals. Quite an odd pairing for sure.

  29. avatar Ryan says:

    Jimbob,

    To blame this squarely on the republicans is a weak argument.. Remember how many dems in congress approved the war in Iraq. Look how many dems took money from Freddy mac/Fannie Mae. Look how all of congress shelved John Mcains bill to re regulate the banking industry in 2005 in an attempt to avert the current situation. To put this squarely on Boy Wonder/the puppeteer is a stretch.

  30. avatar jimbob says:

    You’re right, Ryan. I was pointing out how this crew used the Republican base for it’s own purposes. I believe the same thing could be happening with the democrats. I just hope that you are not defending it because you are Republican. If you are you should be more angry at Bush. The whole blind party support bit is what is allowing all of this to happen!

  31. avatar Salle says:

    “The whole blind party support bit is what is allowing all of this to happen!”

    jimbob has a valid point.

    I do wonder if Ryan has actually read and actually understands that “McCain re-regulation” Bill.

    Aside from that, lest we forget the McCain/Bush ties to the S&L bailout of the 1980’s and the constant drumbeat of “deregulation ho” from that corner of the room ever since.

    …that’s also when the castration of the SEC began. Who was president then???? And where is that long, lost brother Neil nowadays anyway?? I wouldn’t be surprized if he’s feeding from this newly filled trough as well.

    Don’t forget where these clowns came from, especially those with age-calloused tentacles reaching into the wrong places for sustenance.

    The thing about Obama is that he has lived through the harsher side of the so-called “American dream” and has managed to rise above it and succeed. That is hard to do and it really tweaks the chronically wealthy to see that happen for anyone outside of their own bloodline.

    It’s time to end the “whites only” presidency. We should all pay heed to the constitution and rather than give cursory lip-service, start walking our talk.

    “To ‘god,’ we hope you don’t mind but we would like to talk with you, it’s about these christians…. Do you remember jesus? Would you send him back and tell them not to kill him but rather they listen to him instead?” John Trudell

  32. avatar kim kaiser says:

    “The thing about Obama is that he has lived through the harsher side of the so-called “American dream” and has managed to rise above it and succeed. That is hard to do and it really tweaks the chronically wealthy to see that happen for anyone outside of their own bloodline.”

    what a crock of shit!!! he is white too, you know!! or have you forgotten that,,he has chosen to represent the black half of his bloodline, noone forced it, oh, and living in hawaii is SOOOOO tough,,his biggest confusion is who his father is and who his half brothers are all over,,,not where he has lived and how tough its been,,,sure we can have a black president, or woman president, as long as they are qualified, Colin powel comes to mind,, for blacks, as for a woman, i havent seen one yet, but she will come and when she does i will vote her,, but that BS about his poe ass up bringing,, i say it again, what a crock of shit,,!!!

    you peopel need to get some quotes from stalin and read them, and compare to what he said to what hussein said to the plumber about spreading wealth, its PURE SOCIALISM,, and if thaty is what you want, go there, dont ruin what little capitolism, we have left in pursuit of giving the lazy, dumb and drugged an unddesreverd leg up to those who do get there asses up each day, go ot work, put in there daily grind, while they sit home and eat bon bons on someone elses back,,,

    I have watched in basic silence over the last few weeks with few comments, mainly because i dont have time, but i have now determined that i will get my information on conservation etce elsewhere, you bitch and moaned about mcain voting against a grizzly study, at least he voted, and voted against pork,, wasnt that what people wanted, no more pork and earmarks,,,hussein wont even show up, and all the money that he has taken from the fannymae groups the most besides dodd,,and 1milion a day since he has been in govt offfice for earmarks,,well if it was pork then it should have been cut out,,, you are either for pork or against pork, you are for welfare or against it, so if you give it to a lazy druggy with 5 kids, they you have to agree to give it to ranchers who use land, you cant pick and choose, so it is clear that many here are pure socialist and the only stand on social responsiblity is its ok, we will get someone to give you a check!!reading and knowing what is coming from the election of this guy, unless you are one of the ones that getting another and larger free welfare check,,,

    therefore i will remove the header from my favorites, it no longer is one,,, adios, and God bless America if hussein wins, becasue he will be the only hope to save it!!

  33. avatar Salle says:

    And good riddance.

  34. avatar Salle says:

    Oh my Kim Kaiser, just for your benefit… I’ll add to, “…and it really tweaks the chronically wealthy to see that happen for anyone outside of their own bloodline.”

    with,” the miopic shut-in (as in never crossed the county line twice in their life types that can’t see that there’s something like 6 billion other people on the planet) society of the nebulous middle and lower classes.”

    And for everyone else,
    Sorry guys…

  35. avatar Virginia says:

    Adios to Kim!

  36. avatar Save bears says:

    Adios to Kim?

    Now that is a sad state of affairs, because he has a different view than most on this blog, you are going to cheer when he leaves?

  37. avatar vicki says:

    I really have no preference to Kim being around or not. He is aggitating, sure, but so are a few others around here, and I am sure they counter that sentiment.
    I have very deep personal objections to Kim’s constant hateful barrage of people who he thinks are the root of all evil.
    Perhpas Kim grew up in the bomb shelter generation, and his opinions are molded by that line of thinking.
    But as a person who works everyday to help the sick, I strongly disagree with his “druggie” generalizations.
    More people in this ocuntry are addicted to pain meds that are prescribed than those who shoot up on any corner. And his issue with people’s cultural choices and personal choices about how many children they have, and with how many dads or how many people live under one roof….well they are an over generalized judgement that is harsh. What he decries are issues that have to do with human behavior and quite a bit with ideals that have changed over the years.
    Make no mistake, he is not the largest exception, but a bit more the rule. People are often incapable of seeing the problem behind the poverty…their view in clouded by the appearances and resentful sense of self entitlement that they recognize in others but over look within their selves.

    Kim is an American, and I have seen him express great compassion for bison. It is too bad that he won’t be around to join in what common causes we do share with him. It will be the sense of commonality that will overcome obstacles, the differences will always be stumbling blocks. Which is more important? The achievement that is so depserately needed? Or the lessons learned in stumbling over our differences? I say you cannot have one without the other.

  38. avatar Salle says:

    you know, you kind of can’t help but wonder if somebody hijacked (hacked) his ID and is posting as a troll in his place…

  39. avatar SmokyMtMan says:

    Save Bears said: “Adios to Kim?

    Now that is a sad state of affairs, because he has a different view than most on this blog, you are going to cheer when he leaves?”

    Would you honestly categorize Kim’s posts as worthy of a mature, fair, or meaningful debate?

    I disagree with many points commonly made on this board; namely on energy development, the confinement of bison to Yellowstone, and a few others.

    However, there is no place here for incoherent ramblings, personal insults, and an inflexible and extreme viewpoint that is both argumentative and demeaning to a rational person.

    I disagree completely with you on your opinions of coyotes, for instance, yet that hardly prevents us from communicating as intelligent adults.

    I respect and enjoy debating any viewpoints that differ from mine, but I have to ask if your post is sincere? What is the value of Kim’s statements to an educated dialogue?

    Please illuminate for us.

  40. avatar Barb says:

    SmokyMtn: I agree with you. It’s not that Kim had a “different” viewpoint; different viewpoints are good — they are learning experiences for all of us hopefully.

    I found his (or her) tone harsh and angry (and often illegible); not a person who really wants to discuss — just inflame or agitate. Perhaps that’s the only way they know how to talk though. Some people are just not good at communicating either verbally or in writing.

  41. avatar Save bears says:

    You know, with my work as a biologist, I have had to learn how to read many different people, as I was one of the people who often dealt with the public at meetings and other public functions to try to explain why things were being a certain way, or why a choice had been made to do something. It took me a while to understand that most everyone has a valid opinion or point when they state it. Learning to read between the lines and understanding, are two very special qualities, that unfortunately I don’t see many have.

    I just find it very sad, when someone who does have something to say, even if not understood, is told, good bye and don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

    When that happens, we loose diversity….

    I have spoke to Kim in person, he is a nice person, and has his own opinions, that sometime runs against the grain, but so do many in Montana…I spent a lot of time working in the area he lives, and you might be surprised that many feel the same way he does

  42. avatar cobra says:

    What if we were all just americans first and democrats or republicans second. What if all the polititions worked together for the good of the country and its people as first priority. what if?

  43. avatar Barb says:

    Savebears:

    I certainly appreciate your openness to different ideas and people. More people should be like that.

    I’ve been essentially told to go “take a hike” on a few hunting blogs because of my advocacy for wolves and other predators.

    It’s just so sad that so many hunters think anyone who is for predatory animals is an enemy. Many (or the vocal ones) see wolves as “the enemy” or “the competition” as do some livestock owners.

    They’re just animals — that’s it. It’s almost as if they give them “human” status by thinking they’re competition for a human with a gun. There is no competition for any human with a gun.

    Animals are at the mercy of mankind, and that bothers me greatly as there isn’t much compassion out there.

  44. avatar Barb says:

    Cobra,

    I wish more people would start voting 3rd party. Too many closely align with a party first, values second. And they ignore the corruption both parties are guilty of.

    Interestingly, Christopher Buckley, Wm. F. Buckley’s son (he was the founder of National Review) resigned from the magazine recently (he has 1/7 interest in it though) as columnist as he actually ENDORSED OBAMA this election. Apparently, the so-called “conservative” magazine received letters threatening to cancel their subscriptions. Wm. F. Buckley, Jr. was famous for replying this way to threats of cancellation: “Cancel your own damn subscription!”

    I think the Republicans are going to be in trouble this November. They are not the fiscal conservatives as they want you to believe, and that has been their mantra since the Reagan years.

    We’ve had record high deficits, job losses with every Republican president since the “Reagan years.”

  45. avatar Save bears says:

    Barb,

    Thank you, but I can tell you, that there are many that think the advocates for wolves have also given them human status, if not mythical status.

    There are many in the west that support wolves, but there are many in the west, that feel their families hard work has been negated in the last 13 years, many of these families, carved a living out of nothing and part of that carving was getting rid of the competition. I am not saying that because I support their position, but I do understand it.

    Working in the field has taught me many things, that I had no grasp of when I was in school, but being able to listen to the opposition and understanding why they feel the way they do, goes a long way to fixing the rift that exists in this country…

  46. avatar SmokyMtMan says:

    Save Bears,

    I respect all personal opinions, regardless of whether or not I agree with part or none of that particular opinion. This is not about the popularity or level of acceptance of Kim’s views. What if the entire state of Montana agreed with Kim?

    I say that is completely meaningless to my point. It matters not a whit to me if Kim’s opinions are universally accepted, or universally rejected on this blog. That shouldn’t matter to any one of us.

    I have read enough of Kim’s posts to be able to say with fairness and objectivity that he is very antagonistic, harshly judgmental, strongly inflexible in his opinions, and is speaking through some serious frustration and anger.

    Are these qualities conducive to a healthy discourse? Hardly. Simply because he has a valid opinion, as every human being does in my opinion, is no excuse to tolerate his manner of communication on this blog.

    I like reading opposing opinions to my own. I thoroughly enjoy a good and fair debate on a wide range of topics. Indeed, I say that debating with someone you totally disagree with is very healthy: it teaches you the strengths and weaknesses of your own beliefs, there is a good possibility you will learn something you didn’t know before, and understanding opposing viewpoints gives you a clearer understanding of all sides and facets of an issue.

    Tolerating dissenting opinion, to me, is one of the most valuable traits of being an informed and participatory citizen in our country.

    But that isn’t what this is about. This concerns what constitutes a fair and mature dialogue about the issues. Kim’s posts are nowhere close to meeting that fair threshold.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the popularity of his opinions. That is where you went astray in this instance.

  47. avatar Save bears says:

    SmokyMtMan,,

    Because you say, I went astray, does not mean I did, I still feel even the most abrasive asshole deserves a place to voice their thoughts an opinions, whether I agree with them or not..

    That seems to be a big problem in this country, because it is not what I believe, or it is not worded in a way, I agree with, then I will disregard it…

    I have noticed since the internet has become the place to voice an opinion, the smallest person has become the biggest bully and I suspect that much of what gets said on the net, would not be said in person…!

  48. avatar SmokyMtMan says:

    Save Bears said: “I have noticed since the internet has become the place to voice an opinion, the smallest person has become the biggest bully and I suspect that much of what gets said on the net, would not be said in person…!”

    I am a longtime member of an MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) forum, and that may be one of the most frequently said things I have read on that forum!!

    I actually laughed out loud when I read your post. My hat is off to you, sir, for truer words have never been written!

    Indeed, that is a common theme on both of: the keyboard warrior syndrome is very much a reality. I have trained in martial arts for a while, to develop an ability to defend myself and to maintain physical fitness. While I have never competed professionally, the training has taught me much respect and discipline. I find that the loudest and most insulting posters on MMA forums are primarily the ones with no training at all!

    The irony is not lost on me, and again I congratulate you on that statement.

    And I apologize, I re-read my post and my statement “that is where you went astray in this instance” came across as quite arrogant. I certainly didn’t mean it that way. I should have been more careful to not appear condescending, as I have much respect for your opinions and education.

  49. avatar Save bears says:

    SmokyMtMan,

    I spent 26 years in the military, in the 5th special forces, so I understand and fully respect your training, as MMA was part of our training, that I can tell you, came in very handy at times…

    I think many on the net now a days, feel for the first time in their lives, they have a place to post their opinions without repercussions, that I am thankful for, not meaning I always agree with them, but I do feel that they have the right and I welcome them..even when dealing with the most abrasive person, I still find information that is useful, and it could be to further a cause, or it could be an understanding of how to work against them..

  50. avatar SmokyMtMan says:

    My father and 4 of my uncles were in the Corps. Needless to say, I am the only non-Republican in my entire family. Naturally, I have a tremendous respect for military service, and I salute you for your service. I almost feel compelled to vote for McCain on the basis of his service alone, like my family will. However, this isn’t 2000 anymore, and McCain is not the same politician he was then.

    I am impressed with the fact MMA is now practiced in the military. MMA is a beautiful, technical, and very challenging sport. The Gracies, by starting the UFC in 1993, really showed the world what works in martial arts, and what doesn’t work. I think it’s very cool that you are familiar with MMA. I would have bet no one on here had any idea what MMA was!

    Do you follow the sport at all? It is the only pro sport I watch, and the only sport I participate in, albeit just recreationally with my brother and a few friends.

    I agree completely with your views on the internet. The internet allows us to communicate on levels never before possible. It also offers a user complete anonymity, and with that anonymity naturally comes a reduction in inhibitions. Like you say, people feel there are no repercussions to their online activities or statements, so they say things they normally would never say.

    This type of freedom has revolutionized the way we interpret information, the way it’s dispersed, and the way we see the world and each other, I think. The times we live in are very challenging, and environmentally tragic, but they are also exhilarating times, too, aren’t they?

    It’s been a real pleasure talking with you, save Bears. I wish I could send you my e-mail. You strike me as a very intelligent and interesting person with wide-ranging experiences and an open mind.

  51. avatar Virginia says:

    My “adios” to Kim is primarily based on his diatribes full of hate and contempt for those who are perhaps not as fortunate. I don’t recall any constructive comments from him and most of his tirades only prove his ignorance – in my opinion. There are so many educational, interesting and thought-provoking posts on this site and that is why I enjoy reading it. I, too, disagree with many of the opinions posted, and we are all allowed to disagree, but I find it very disturbing to read his posts full of hate and vitriol. Maybe I simplify it too much, but in any case, I will not miss him.

  52. avatar Linda Hunter says:

    Interesting posts all. Tolerance of a person’s opinions and the agreement to disagree is the first step in finding common ground to work with. I must say though that Kim has a long way to go before we can find common ground. . I think he feels that most of the people on the blog are in a category of human he hasn’t been able to communicate well with. Other people who have disagreed with most of the posts have hung in there and learned to exchange ideas. One of the thing that bugs me about this election is that the “common knowledge” of people is coming out strong. .that knowledge is shaped by the TV and popular news sources that people have time to listen to an watch in the course of their day. Often they don’t realize how much interpretation they are being fed in body language and inflection. One of the common knowledge by-words being bandied around without real understanding is entitlement. This term has been associated with communism much like a revival of the McCarthy era. I used to work as a welfare worker for many years. This whole concept has been one I have given thought to and first hand education in. Our society is producing more and more walking wounded and socially unemployable people without cures for them. It is bad karma to have people starve to death on our doorstep. I do understand the anger people feel over what looks like laziness but if they were to volunteer or work in the social services for a while they would see that laziness is the exception. I have to laugh when I hear about the rescue plans for our financial institutions because it is a clear case of the kettle calling the pot black. . pun intended I think. The Republican party is on the one hand twisting people’s opinions with anger of “entitlements” and then handing out such a big dole that it is even off the radar of understanding for most of us. I firmly believe in capitalism but to work it has to have regulated with common sense and fairness. Our animals we ALL care about suffer when things go to either extreme and perhaps Obama isn’t perfect but change is what we need right now . . a new broom to keep balance and fairness. That’s why we have two strong parties.

  53. avatar JB says:

    I have probably sparred with Kim more than anyone over the past month or so and must admit I’m of two minds about his departure. On one hand, I agree with Virgina’s assessment that he expressed a lot of hate and resentment of people whom he clearly saw as getting something for nothing (and the terms he used to describe these folks were and are offensive, no matter who you are). I don’t have much use for this kind of talk. On the other hand, Kim has also pointed out common errors in people’s beliefs about Barack Obama. These comments I found quite useful. Unfortunately they didn’t get much attention, as people (myself included) responded to the more extreme comments he was making.

    While I agree with Save Bears about people’s right to express their opinion, I note that no one here forced Kim to leave (despite the fact that Ralph had some cause). He left because he was continually shouted down–not because his ideas were divergent from most, but because they were abhorrent to most. I submit that this is exactly what should happen when people express such ideas. If you want people to respond with intelligent, rational arguments then you should stick to making intelligent, rational propositions. The types of comments Kim was making deserved to be angrily shouted down.

  54. avatar Salle says:

    Gee, sounds like he kind of voted himself off the island after considering the way JB put it.

  55. avatar Frank Renn says:

    Hank Williams recently wrote a song for a Sarah Palin rally. He compared her to a mother bear from Idaho protecting her cubs. It is illegal in Idaho to harvest a black bear with cubs as the reality is the cubs will starve to death. In parts of Alaska it is legal to kill female black bears with cubs. This is part of Governor Palins predator control program. Something about increasing moose populations. Research shows that moose calf predation by black bears is primarily done by adult male black bears.

    Of course the reason for the Idaho law is it is the ethical thing to do. As we have noticed Sarah is lacking in ethics. In closing I just picked up my first Alaskan quarter, of course it has a bear on it. Maybe it is not to late for the black bears in Alaska to join Polar Bears for Obama.

  56. avatar vicki says:

    You know, I don’t know everyone’s background here. But I can tell you that I fit many of the stereo-types he tosses poor people into. I am a minority, spent fourteen years as a single mother, have children with more than one father, and have lived in a home with several other family members.

    None of these made me lazy, a mooch, a welfare recipient, an addict, or a burden on society. But I have heard these rants before…and they are no more wrong from Kim than anyone else who has done it. No more right either.

    Kim is not the first, or the last person who will ever judge people on what they assume to be true. Appearances can be misleading, and assumptions are often based on self reflection. I suspect that Kim, like many people, finds it easier to express what he dislikes about others than what he should change in himself. I know I have been guilty of that on more than one occasion.

    But his opinions are no less important than anyone else’s. They come from some place, and if that place is angry, then I hope he finds some peace. But where ever it is, obviously it needs to be touched with some positivity. Heap the coals of kindness…

    Regardless of my differences of opinion with Kim, I would hope he continues to see that there are causes worth fighting for, and no matter what opposition he has met on this blog, he can still have something in common worth achieving with others here-different or not.

    Back to what the subject is….Palin is a “poser” as my daughter says. She is the ‘camoflauge politician’. She tries to blend in so she can maneuver her way through subjects she is ill equiped to handle, and hide from the truth. But at the end of the day, she cannot outrun her own true identity…too bad for her.

  57. avatar outsider says:

    Vicki last time I checked you know excatly where Palin stands on the issuse, I hardly call that blending in. I would call voting “present” instead of taking a stand as, how did you put it, blending in so one can maneuver there way through subjects that they are ill equiped to handle, and hide from the truth.

  58. avatar vicki says:

    Outsider,
    Ha! I do? I would beg to differ. First global warming is non-existent, then it exists but not because of man. According to Palin, she wants cleaner energy and reform on our oil dependence, but she is in favor of drilling without much if any regulation. She opposes abortion, but doesn’t state why. She says she is against abusing power…but used hers to launch an attack on her former brother in law. She tells the world she is an average mother, but has fancy homes built , one an a lake shore. She says she supports helping special needs children, but opposes any special funds to aid education. She says she is up to date on military issues, but can’t even quote any facts without referring to her notes-and still gets a general’s name wrong.
    No Outsider, I don’t know where she stands except that her actions tell me she stands for more of the same b.s. we desperately need to break away from.

    So since you ask about blending in, shouldn’t you agree that talking about seeing Russia from Alaska instead of addressing the issue of how it has anything to do with competency to deal with foreign relations is manuevering? Or you’d agree that trying to act as though you are the girl next door while tossing in a phony accent for effect, when you are still the power hungry deceiver who is trying to wrangle votes is blending? Maybe you’d even say that running with a man who’s campaign slogans are all about stomping out unethical abuse of power, while having abused your own power to interfere in other people’s peronal affairs is a huge maneuver in hiding your real ability to be ethical? Or maybe that running on the premise that you want to change Washington-while you are aligned with the current administration’s beliefs that we are doing God’s work in the middle east is maneuvering? Well, I’d say that is maneuvering. But that is just my opinion-I doubt you’d agree.
    Voting ‘present’ is something that one can opt to do when they agree with some aspects of a bill, and not others. I’d say that makes them more honest than saying they
    support or oppose something when to say that with a yes or no vote may not be entirely true.
    If you think a president should always say yes or no, then you’d agree in a line item veto? They can say yes or not to one item at a time…and be honest about their agreement with it entirely instead of generally.
    If not, then how do you propose ending all those earmarks, and loop holes and special circumstances that are attatched to so many bills? Or do we waste everyone’s time and money and send it all back to the drawing board because one piece of a very large puzzle is not fitting? Would it not be more sensible to fix one part than start all over, whenever at all possible? I’d say getting things done is better than waiting for something to be accomplished.

    Uhh, well perhaps not if you like McCain, the defender of the unborn at the cost of those already living. You may just want to turn the hands of time back instead of moving forward to a brighter future.
    I think many American people wanted to see a woman run for office because they may have thought that a female would bring a sense of compassion tempered with the ability to juggle many things and to get a lot done with her to the office. In my opinion, Sarah Palin lacks those abilities. And sadly, looking at her environmental track record, she lacks compassion.
    So what do I see when you talk about Palin? I see a fake, a deceiver, an attack dog incapable of remorse, a face without a mind, a person who lacks the wisdom, the knowledge, the vision, or the experience with the majority’s reality to actually be a viable option for second in line to the most important office in our nation.
    But I can tell you one thing for certain, I will be voting for a ticket containing TWO people I feel capable of leading…not just the one that contains a vagina for effect.

  59. avatar Virginia says:

    To Vicki – Touche’ – You speak for me and very eloquently I might say!

  60. avatar Barb says:

    SaveBears,

    I understand your comments about people who live in wolf territory being affected by them.

    The thing is — and this can’t be denied — they’ve been living in a “Disney-esque” situation — it’s not reality, and it should never be again.

    Wolves were part of the landscape until they were wrongly exterminated and will be part of it again.

    People who support wolves are livid that the federal government destroyed them in the numbers they did and in the vicious, hateful manner in which “predator control” was carried out.

    To me, “predator control” is one of the federal government’s worst crimes against nature.

    If the feds want to pay them for proven wolf losses, I’d be for that if it would help. Otherwise, if they still complain, I’d say forget it then.

    I cannot seem to EVER get an answer from ANYONE why business insurance doesn’t cover “natural losses” such as predation. It’s no differrent than any natural loss.

    Everyone is SILENT on the issue. Why?

  61. avatar JB says:

    Vicki:

    It’s a mute point: Obama has the race all but locked up. It’s time to move on and start discussing what we can do in the next 4 years to fix what Bush and his cronies have broken.

  62. avatar Save bears says:

    Barb,

    I addressed your insurance question somewhere, most insurance companies have “Act of God” clauses, which can be used to deny a claim for just about any reason they can think of, most also have “existing condition” clauses, my home owners policy, will not cover me if we have a forest fire, but it will cover if we have a fire start in the house…you have to buy separate flood insurance..in a lot of areas around the country, you can’t purchase insurance on crops, I know I have several friends who are farmers…cattle is just another form of crop….I have never heard of an insurance company issuing a policy on livestock, and I seriously doubt they would..

  63. avatar Linda Hunter says:

    JB there have been other times when I thought an election was locked up .. it is important to still vote! Very important! Did anyone catch the comment McCain slipped in about having military personnel be able to come back and teach in schools without having to go through any more training? Did i mis-hear that?

  64. avatar Bonnie says:

    If you mis-heard it, so did I.

  65. avatar Mike says:

    Shame that Kim left the blog. I’ll relaly miss his comedy routine.

  66. avatar Barb says:

    What annoyed me is Sarah Palin’s hypocrisy.

    One one hand, she is vehemently against “socialism.”

    On the other hand, she is interested in getting more money for kids with development disabilities.

    Now, I am NOT saying I don’t agree. But why is ONE kind of socialism OK with the Republicans but not another?

    I call it “Republican’s Selective Socialism.”

    In the last debate, McCain was talking about “the health” of the mother as given for reasons for justifying abortion and that he thinks this is B.S.

    How can a society be concerned with only “certain” kinds of health and not others?

    So is health insurance for ALL Americans LESS important to Sarah Palin that ensuring that HER child with down’s syndrome is helped by the federal government?

    Does Palin or McCain really care that our family is now paying slightly over $10,000 a year for our family’s health insurance — and OUT OF OUR OWN POCKETS?!

    I just see so much hypocrisy coming from the Republicans these days it is making me sick!

  67. avatar vicki says:

    Virginia,
    Thanks.
    Barb,
    I agree.
    JB,
    I haven’t heard a morbidly obese female sing yet. But I am all for gearing up to get things done….where do we begin?
    Linda,
    I heard it, and don’t know what was more astonishing…that military would be allowed to teach in public schools, or that people who are not certified to teach would be injected into an already struggling educational system….or that he would just so cavalierly slide in the comment and not even seem to think people would be taken aback by it.
    Barb,
    Hang in there….and rest assured, hypocrisy is not endangered, and evenif it was, I doubt republicans would vote to save it..then again, they are hypocrits for the most part…!

  68. avatar Save bears says:

    So Vicki,

    Beings I have been a registered Republican for almost 30 years now, I am a Hypocrite?

    I don’t thing so..

  69. avatar vicki says:

    Save Bears,
    You aren’t a politician.
    Did you see the “for the most part”?
    I can tell you, I think everyone can be a hypocrit , everyone.
    I mean no insult to you personally, but if you were a politician, you’d have elevated your game to the highest hypocrit level in my estimation. As you can see,,, I lack a lot of faith in politicians. If there were ever one that said they weren’t sure of one damn thing….and might accomplish squat, I’d be more optomistic that they were less hypocritical and more honest.

  70. avatar Save bears says:

    Well Vicki,

    If the damn public would get off the high horse of voting for the two major parties, perhaps we could change something in this country, but until such time as the majority is ready to vote someone in office that is not affiliated with a major party, we are destine to continue to reap what we vote for!

  71. avatar vicki says:

    Maybe true…but until you can convince the majority of people to vote on what is right instead of what is cheapest, or easist…or more to the point, get the majority to vote for anyone who runs as an independent..voting independent is a wasted vote.
    Until then, I feel compelled to make a vote that will count. Call it damage control, but you can only choose between the candidate that have a chance to win. So I feel I am better of voting for the one that will be the best option of the two.
    I don’t know if I think the public is really on a high horse, as much as eyes wide shut. How many independents do you think really got a message out to the voters this election?

    Maybe the possibility will be bigger next time around. I see that technology in this country may open information sources to more people and be done cheaper, so an independent candidate might have a better chance of being noticed.

    Most independents that I have heard, or read, run to address-or have knowledge and experience-in only one area. We need someone to run that has broader understanding and a well rounded history and experience to run.

    What would you like to see in a candidate?

  72. avatar vicki says:

    by the way, I am registered American Independent. I will be voting democrat for the first time. I rarely vote for all one party in elections. I didn’t vote for GHWB. And I have very strong differences on the party line on many issues.

  73. avatar outsider says:

    vicki, I don’t have enough time list all the things that are wronge from your eailer post but I will take on a few. “According to Palin, she wants cleaner energy and reform on our oil dependence, but she is in favor of drilling without much if any regulation” She has acctually made “big oil” clean up there act and pay alaska more than the previous admin. Our dilling tec these days is miles ahead of where we were even 5 years ago. But hey if you want to keep shipping boat loads of money to the middle east well. Oh I know if we would all conserve and inflate our tires we wouldn’t need any middleeast oil. “She opposes abortion, but doesn’t state why” If you don’t know why she opposes abortion than you really do have you head in the sand and havn’t even tried to look objectively at this woman. She has made no secreat that she is “PROLIFE” last time I checked they oppose abortion. Some take harder stands on when they would make exceptions, life of mother in danger, rape, inscest, but at least as far as I’m concerned she has never supported the brutal killing called partial birth abortion where they basically all but have the baby out of the mother before they KILL it. Obama thinks that this is an acceptable procedure, he wouldn’t even support trying to save the babies when they botch the procedure and they survive after being born for hours and sometime even years. “She says she is up to date on military issues, but can’t even quote any facts without referring to her notes-and still gets a general’s name wrong.” This is how someone who is not from the beltway and embeded with politics would have to handle complex issuse ar they are getting up to speed. But at least she supports our military and our soldiers, if Joe and Obama had their way we would have tucked tail and ran giving the radicals their much wanted and needed victory over us. I could go on and on but I’m not going to change your mind. But I’m not going to let you get away with slanderous remakes and turning a blind eye to your chosen ones past history. Voting present is not a stragy that I want my leader to use. I want someone who can and will make a decsion. When the phone rings at 2:00 am a present vote will not be sufficant.

  74. avatar vicki says:

    Outsider,
    You are seriously going to say that it is alright for Palin to be ‘being brought up to speed’, but act like Biden and Obama are less qualified? Whatever… that is a huge grasp, but if it helps you sleep at night, you believe it.
    Want to talk about slander, Obama and Biden would have us tuck tail….crap again. They support a definitive plan and stonger presence in Afghanistan. I’d rather have a leader who wants some end in sight than one who just doesn’t seem to care that we are scaraficing the lives of our soldiers for a lot of people who don’t want our help. But then understanding Islam is not something people feel comfortable with…it might give them cause to rethink our presence in the Middle East period. Then what b.s. excuse would they have to cook up to place our soldiers in countries that supply us with oil?
    Iraq is milking the cow at our expense right now…and they are profitting in the billions every month. That probably doesn’t bother you, since you obviously support those who sleep with big oil.
    As far as Palin cleaning up big oil, ha! I couldn’t list the environmental travesties this woman has supported. The funny thing is, she named her daughter, Brisyol, after a bay that she supports dooming to a death by pollution.
    She has every right to believe what she wants about the MORALITY of abortion, but she needs to remember that the foundation of this counrty’s existence was based on the seperation of church and state. It isn’t up to her what people do with their lives, just because her bible tells her otherwise. There is a freedom of religeon issue here. I personally am sick to death of these hypocritical politicians telling me what I should have to do based on their perception of what is biblically correct. Heck Outsider, Christians can’t agree on it, what would give anyone the impression that a government could force an entire country t o agree?
    As far as Obama, he supports a woman’s right to choose, so do I. In instances where a woman’s life is in danger, why do you feel you have the right to condemn her to die? That is a judgement that seems to be harsher than those we place on murderers and rapists.
    How exactly do you think t hey KILL it? ( meaning the unborn fetus) They don’t have axes in the OR. But for reference, it is no more inhumane than telling someone who is slowly dying, very aware of everything that is happening to them but unable to respond, move, or express their pain level, that they have no right to the research desperately needed to cure their desease-or no right to decide to die with dignity and without suffering, by simply pushing a medicine dosage higher.
    As far as Palin not being from the beltway, and your claim to be worried about that 2 am call….I’d say I would rather have someone with more knowledge, who isn’t palying catch up, answering that phone. I would seriously lack confidence in that person answering the call if they are “getting up to speed” and have information in front of them and cannot pay close enough attention to detail to even read a name correctly.
    I said nothing slanderous. BUt if you want so badly to make someone accountable for voting present, you have to hold McCain accountable for his voting record. Everyone wants to hold Bush accountable, well the people who voted to support his policies. That would be McCain.
    Want to talk ethics, you failed to address Palin’s actions in Troopergate.
    Come on Outsider, you can throw some stones, but remember the glass house around your ideals.

  75. avatar vicki says:

    I meant “well you need to also hold those people accountable who voted to support his policies.

  76. avatar outsider says:

    vicki lets take these one at a time,

    1) troopergate “But the report — commissioned by the Legislature and carried out by an independent investigator — also found that Palin was within her “constitutional and statutory authority” to dismiss Monegan.” nothing illiegal here.

    2) 2 am phone call was a point that was raised by Senator Clinton, are we just supposed to disregard a ligitament concern of the Senators? Plus last time I check Mcain would be getting that call unless god forbid something happens to him. If you want to talk about not having info correct, Mr. Bidden seems to beleive that FDR was talking to people on the TV during the stockmarket crash of 1929, he is a proven plagerist, I could go on and on but for times sake.

    3) On abortion you said “In instances where a woman’s life is in danger, why do you feel you have the right to condemn her to die?” Please show me where I have the right to or want to condemn women to die? I think abortion is an individual choice, I’m agiainst it except for certain circimstances, these do not include birthcontrol, doctors using the life of mother as an excuse when there is no evidence. I don’t feel that I should be required to help pay for them either via taxes.

    4)war, Its on record Obama did not support the surge, still wont acknowlege that its working, and will pull troops out before the job is done. BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) — Coalition troops on Monday formally handed over security control of Iraq’s Anbar province — once the hub of the country’s Sunni insurgency, to Iraqis on Monday. We are winning this war and will get Osama in time, there are too many people who forget ww1 and ww2 lasted for years, and there was no real regard for civillian casuties. I not saying they were disrgarded but just considered a cost of winnning. Today we bend over backward to keep from having any civillain causties, or property damage. It still happens but not on any great scale. You also said “I’d rather have a leader who wants some end in sight than one who just doesn’t seem to care that we are scaraficing the lives of our soldiers for a lot of people who don’t want our help. I also am pretty sure that Mccain and Palin both care are great deal about the lives of soldiers, they both have children fighting over there.

    5) oil, I could spend a whole day here, you said “As far as Palin cleaning up big oil, ha! I couldn’t list the environmental travesties this woman has supported.” Please do list the “environmental travesties” that she has supported in reguards to big oil. I know drilling anyplace, please try again.

    Okay thats enough for now my fingers are cramping up 😉

  77. avatar outsider says:

    one more thing on trooper gate, you think that you guys would be overjoyed that she was trying to fire a “moose poching, child tasering, individual. I bet he would have no problem blasting a few of those nasty wolves just for sport.

  78. avatar Jay says:

    Outsider, what exactly is a “ligitament concern”?

  79. avatar outsider says:

    jay I can’t spell, just one of the uneducated masses that our public schools pump out;)

  80. avatar outsider says:

    legitimate

  81. avatar Jay says:

    Ok, not trying to give you flack–not too much, anyway–but I was “legitimately” baffled at that one (sorry, couldn’t pass it up).

  82. avatar vicki says:

    Outsider,
    Okay here goes, and I will try to be brief
    1, not illegal but very devisive, manipulative, self-serving and AN ABUSE OF POWER. (though many people think it should be illegal-me included). And, considering her “I’m gonna clean up politics retorrhic”, I see it as extremely hypocritical.

    2. you were babbling a bit, but if you raise the 2 am phone call brought up prior to the primary, apply it all the way around. It coudn’t have been asked about Palin, she wasn’t in the picture yet…but you can sure as heck ask it now. And yes, God forbid, she could be the one answering that call. That should scare the hell out of anyone who thinks we need someone with some mental retention in office.

    3. doctors performing partial birth abortions without cause is not a problem with allowing abortion, it is a problem with unethical-and frankly criminal (as it would be to do any such procedure without cause) doctors. Since I don’t know specifically who you are referring to, I can’t speak directly about it. I do know though, that would not be a question about the right of the female to choose, but the ethics of a doctor who performed an unwarranted procedure. But if you think for one second that contraception is less affordable than unwanted children, you need some serious reconsideration of your position. I don’t think I should have to pay more to support those children….but I will, and I do. We give federal funding to healthcare, welfare, food stamps, education, prisons, etc. for those children. Grandparents are increasingly responsible for raising their grand children when they can hardly afford their own care. Why is what I want to pay any less signifigant? Why is it right for anyone to force someone to give birth and then force me to pay for that and the costs associated with the raising of those children? Again, hypocritcal-I don’t think you should make me pay for contraception or abortions, but I will make you pay for the care of unwanted or unplanned children for atleast eighteen years. Palin opposes any abortion…and as you said, it is an individual choice. Not having that choice makes it a public problem. I oppose telling any woman what she can or cannot do to with her own body.

    4. Obama very publicly stated he did not support more funding for the troop surge because the plan lacked any sort of time line. That in no way, shape, or form, says he has no regard for our troops. It does say he is concerned about how long we subject them to a fight that most Americans do not support.-Again, most Americans are no longer in support of the war in Iraq. That doesn’t mean we don’t support the troops.
    Yes, they do both have children in the military. That makes it even more clear that this is a dismal situation.
    Quoting CNN is fine, but remember that best analysts of what goes on over seas are the soldiers who serve there. The soldiers I know are voting for Obama, even a retired Colonel!
    It is worth mentioning that Obama said we need more troops in Afghanistan, and the soldiers I have spoken to lately agree. (One very dear friend of mine just left last week for his third tour in Afghanistan, and he says they have been pleading for more support over there for a while now.)

    5. Read back on this blog and you can find all kinds of info on Palin’s environmental record. Pull up her name on any search engine and you will get hit after hit about her environmental stand. It is ugly, and I want no part of it in any public office. But she is a staunch supporter of more drilling in/off the coast of Alaska. She even sued to keep Polar Bears delisted and supports drilling in the ANWR. Yep, she is stopping big oil all right…not!
    But I stated that she she supported all kinds of environmental travesties…they extend beyond oil. She supports mining in the wrong places(would decimate salmon dishing in Bristol Bay), bounties on wolves, aerial gunning, artificially increasing populations, snowmobile racing…

    6. The alligations about her former brother in law were investiagted and he was suspended for five days. If he had abused a child with a taser, I would think he would have been arrested. Appearantly the state troopers didn’t find enough evidence to do that. Furthermore, some of Palin’s own family were present and involved in the moose incident, specifically her sister-I don’t see her throwing a hissy and demanding action against them. If she abused her power this much as a Governor, I hate to think of what she’d do as V.P.
    I did find it a bit nauseating that she brought up, as a reason for wanting Wooten fired, that he illegally chased down a wolf on a snowmobile. That it about the biggest example of a ‘double standard having hypocrit’ imaginable, coming from little miss ‘shoot’em from planes’ herself.

    Obviously we will not agree on this. But I appreciate you taking the time to give me your opinions.

  83. avatar Barb says:

    Save Bears said: If the damn public would get off the high horse of voting for the two major parties, perhaps we could change something in this country, but until such time as the majority is ready to vote someone in office that is not affiliated with a major party, we are destine to continue to reap what we vote for!

    I AGREE SO MUCH WITH THIS!

    I am very PO’d that the National Review would accept the resignation of Christopher Buckley, an independent and dissenting voice because he actually supported Obama, not who he was “supposed to” support.

    National Review has apparently morphed into the “new brand” of “conservatism” as promoted by Faux News, Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh If you don’t toe the party line P-E-R-F-E-C-T-L-Y; like supporting wars that are just plain wrong, you are OUT — very Nazi like. It’s NOT patriotic to pay taxes but it’s not patriotic to blindly follow without thinking either!

    The editor of National Review should have told readers threatening to cancel their subscription, “Cancel your own damn subscription!” as the late Wm F Buckley was famous for saying.

    WIMPS!

  84. avatar Barb says:

    Vicki, My big issue with McCain is that he relishes war and enjoys the U.S. being the bully of the world like we are at times.

    We pummelled the shi– out of Iraq, a country with an admitted nasty dictator, but was secular for the most part. Saddam and Iraq did not attack us — Saudi Arabians terrorists did. People seem to forget that.

    The U.S. has killed many innocent civilians (not purposefully of course) but that doesn’t make it OK.

    We are in this war for God knows what — but you’ll never hear Iraqian “casualties” in the news, at least in this country because our news — liberal or conservative, is censored — the big wigs know they had better not say anything negative about the U.S. military. Actually, it’s not the U.S. military at fault — it’s the BOZOS in D.C. who are the idiots sending our brave young people off to a stinkin’ war to “end terrorism in the world as we know it.”

    Then you get the rah-rah right wingers saying “We’re fighting for freedom.”

    We are? Again, Iraq never attacked our freedom. Terrorists did. So we are punishing an entire country.

  85. avatar JB says:

    Everyone should take a break from the bickering and check out the speeches made by McCain and Obama last night at the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Foundation dinner. You might even laugh…

    http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/politics-religion-society/18931-dinner-mccain-obama-share-some.html

  86. avatar vicki says:

    JB,
    I did hear, they were pretty funny.
    I do feel sorry for Joe the plumber, he is a real person and by no fault of his own, he is now a public figure.
    Speaking of things that I heard that were funny…I was told that a woman was held in an outhouse for several hours by a moose in a campground. Every time she opened the door the mosse would try to charge into the outhouse. She said it was an act of God, because the moose scared the crap out of her! She had been camping in the area every year for over ten years, and told my parents of the experience. That is a true story! I just had to share..giggle giggle.

  87. avatar Barb says:

    Yep, heard them — it was funny.

  88. avatar outsider says:

    vicki I just asked for one case of “environmental travesties” that she has supported in reguards to big oil.
    and alll you can give me is “they extend beyond oil.” and “Read back on this blog and you can find all kinds of info on Palin’s environmental record. Pull up her name on any search engine and you will get hit after hit about her environmental stand. It is ugly, and I want no part of it in any public office.” So I guess if it on this blog its true? Where is the big oil travesties you are whining about?

    I also still find that fact that you are supporting her exbrother inlaw aka, “mr wolf killer” as very hipacriacal. Maybe you can get him to join your cause against palin, after all as long as you can bring her down it dosen’t matter who you what he has done in his past.

    looking at your number 4 point, I just say “I think” I have talked to more vets from iraq than you, not sure but they are part of my community and they all are supportive of what we are doing and where we are headed, they also want more activiy in afgan but also understand that you need to “kill one head of the beast at a time”

    Barb shame on you for saying “Vicki, My big issue with McCain is that he relishes war and enjoys the U.S. being the bully of the world like we are at times.” If you think any vet relishes and enjoys war, well you are so mistaken. Only after you have served can you make a statment like that about your own persnal preferences. I can almost say with 100 percent certianty that Mcain would like nothing better than for there to be no war, after you have seen what happens douring war all you want after is for people to just get along. Sorry if I have offend anyone here but this line of “crap” needs to end, I am willing to discuse anything with anyone, and thank you vicki for atleast being willing to talk, even though we doun’t agree thats fine. But please and this is for all have facts not “crap” when you spout off against or for something. It will only make your case better and keep me from having to cramp my poor hand when i have to rebute. 🙂

  89. avatar outsider says:

    on a lighter note, vicki if we had more wolves where this poor woman was maybe the moose would be more concerned about predartors and less about scarying the crap out of a poor woman. Or maybe we should send some of the “folicaly embowled changed” indiviuals to this camp. 🙂

  90. outsider,

    You didn’t ask me, but I was reading the morning commemts.

    Regarding Palin and the oil companies. She wants to drill everywhere in Alaska where there might be oil and gas. In addition she ignornes these operations’ byproduct pollution, e.g., according to an article in the Independent (UK), “The Palin administration has allowed Chevron to triple the amount of toxic waste it pours into the waters of Cook Inlet. This, even though the number of beluga whales in the bay has collapsed from 1,300 to 350 – the point of extinction – because of pollution and increased ship traffic.”
    Fortunately, just yesterday, “Government declares beluga whale endangered.” AP

  91. avatar outsider says:

    ralph from the ap source you linked to, “NOAA said Friday the Cook Inlet population declined by 50 percent between 1994 and 1998 and “is still not recovering” despite restrictions on the number of whales that Alaska’s native population can kill for subsistence”

    Sure sounds like numbers had already declined BEFORE she became governor and where is the outrage over alaskas native population killing these whales, it almost like because they are natives it was alright.

    Couldn’t find the chevron toxic was bit please post link

  92. outsider,

    I’m no enthusiast for many of the native “hunting and fishing rights”, which puts me at odds with some friends on the left.

    Here is the link to the article in the UK Independent.

    Palin: the real scandal

  93. avatar vicki says:

    Outsider,
    The sources found on this blog are no less reliable than those you quote. They are brought to our attention here, but you can pull them up all over the www. There are references in headlines and on research through out the globe.
    As far as me supporting the ex-brother in law. I didn’t say I did. The alligations against him were investigated, just as those against Palin were. My problem with that instance is her blatant abuse of her power, which you cannot negate.

    I work in the healthcare industry, and I see vets and active duty soldiers every day. I see a lot, but you may know more. I just know that the majority I am aware of are voting away from the republican party.

    Yes, you are right, one head at a time. But we were chopping away in Afgan before Iraq. Maybe we should have finished that fight before starting the next, by your arguement.

    I think it is a safe bet that McCain is wanting peace, but I think the question is…does he want to end the war within a realistic time and with realistic expectations? I would say no.

    We “spout” our opinions, but I can tell you I didn’t give one ounce of crap. If you disagree with my opinion, so be it…but know I very carefully consider and research the facts before I actually formulate an opinion. And I definitely do before I express that opinion. Rest assured, if you convince me I was wrong, I will be the first to admit it.

    On the lighter note….
    The lady was actually in a camp ground located on the out side edge of Rocky Mountain National Park. It is an area where moose were reintroduced in Colorado back in the 80’s. There are quite a few moose, and my guess would be that if there were wolves, they might end up in the area. I am all for that, as long as it is good for the environment as a whole.
    But if we let people know that moose could be a cure for constipation….we will never get wolves back in the area! Pharmaceutical companies will be in there like pine beetles.

  94. avatar JB says:

    More fun with Sarah Palin (foul language warning): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DIc8jdra0o

  95. avatar Barb says:

    Outsider,

    I stand by my comments that McCain “relishes war.” He, and many others, supported the Iraq war and he sees it as “critical” to somehow ensuring U.S. security. I beg to differ. I think war is “in his blood” and will forever be.

    And my comments are of course intended for the decision makers of the war — not the veterans. The veterans aren’t the ones deciding if the war is “just” or not.

    The U.S. govt would have been well advised to listen to the American people and get us out of Vietnam LONG before any president did.

    And the American people are right again — the majority want us out of Iraq.

    That line of “reasoning” is always used to try to make people embarrassed or something and then they’re accused of “not supporting our troops.” I support our troops as much as the next guy –I mainly want them HOME.

  96. avatar Barb says:

    Outsider:

    Just because you don’t agree doesn’t make my opinion “crap.” Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion.

    Please let me repeat this loud and clear:

    I respect our veterans and troops.

    I do NOT respect the politicians in D.C. sending our men and woman to wars that we should never have gotten involved in in the first place.

  97. avatar Barb says:

    And I see vets every day on 16th Street mall in Denver with no legs and arms from the Vietnam and Iraq wars.

  98. avatar outsider says:

    Barb, you say you respect our veterans and troops but you are basical calling a vet a warmonger, yes McCain is a vet gave more for this country than most of us ever would. No I don’t beleive that all opions are crap, I have never said that , but when you spout off, like that well, thats what I call it, just my opinion, which I hope I’m allowed to have here. I’m also glad you see these vets every day, I just hope you also thank them for their service to this great country, it would be a great travesty if they were treated the same way that they were back when they came home from Vietnam, I don’t care if you supported the war or not attacking our troop after they were home, not cool.

  99. avatar Barb Rupers says:

    From The Tennessean.com: In Alaska ” fish and game — still comprise 60 percent of the local diet. In Palin’s scant two years in the governor’s office, she has pursued a lawsuit which, if successful, would move every subsistence issue into the courts and thus tie up traditional rights for generations. Her reason? To expand sport and commercial fishing.”
    On Tuesday, Sept. 23, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals sided with the natives and against her ongoing efforts.
    So much for for her arguement prior to the ruling that aerial wolf hunting was necessary to increase moose populations for the natives.

  100. avatar dbaileyhill says:

    Barb Rupers,

    Thanks for the info. It is sickening that someone in this day and age, would attempt to carry on treating the indigenous peoples of North America as a nuisance. (Maybe palin see’s this as merely continuing a gruesome chapter of history).. That is unacceptable from anyone but even more so from someone seeking the second highest office in the country.
    Does this woman even think before she acts? I have wondered that maybe she comes up with such ridiculous proposals just to see what she can get away with. That is also what i was thinking when mccain announced that she would be his running mate. That should insult anyone with even the tiniest lick of intelligence.

  101. avatar vicki says:

    OUtsider,
    Barb was calling a candidate a war monger. Not the troops, and not referring to his service. He put himself into the political arena. In doing so he maintains aour gratitude for service he performed, but his reputation and stand on issues became fair game.
    By Barb calling one person a war monger, she is not dismissing the armed service’s men and women,,, she is expressing concern with one man’s attitudes and beliefs on war.
    Our troops, and respect for them, have nothing to do with McCain’s political ramifications.
    Just because one man is running for president, and is a vet, does not mean that we cannot or should not question his platform, political tendencies, and opinions.
    I respect veterans, and thank them when I see them. But I do not have respect for McCain’s political motivations. They are two entirely different things.

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‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."

~ Edward Abbey

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