Update 4/8/09 – Hunters vent wolf concernsIdaho Mountain Express – Jason Kauffman

Update 4/5/09 by Brian Ertz

Poster displayed in front window of Hailey Les Schwab store

Poster displayed in front window of Hailey Les Schwab store

Yesterday, several anti-wolf organizers held a meeting in Hailey, Idaho to express their hatred for Idaho’s wolves and their intention to organize grass-roots resistance to the wolves’ presence on the Idaho landscape.  IDFG & Hailey city officers stood guard.

The meeting was held as a reaction to the valley’s recent visitation by the Phantom Hill Wolf Pack, celebrated by many, needless to say, scorned by a few others.

You can listen to a few snippets of Gillett’s rant:
(about 2 min) that I’ve edited/compiled to get an idea of the less-than legal intentions that were expressed at the meeting, and the general hatred that infects this very real cross-section of western culture.  It’s real and it’s not wise to discount, pretend like it doesn’t exist or make-believe that it will not impact the state’s management of wolves.  It already has.

Idaho Department of Fish & Game Director Cal Groen attended and spoke at this anti-wolf rally, in all fairness he expressed the department’s commitment to lawful conduct, but his attendance at this anti-wolf rally marks a stark turn away from officials’ past effort to avoid, ignore, and marginalize Gillett – Groen’s attendance and participation elevated, perhaps even legitimized Gillett et al’s sentiment.  At the very least, the state is listening.

There’s rumor of an article to come out later in the week that will have particular details.  I’ll leave it to that and to the account of folk in attendance who may want to comment.

Bumper-stickers in parking lot

Bumper-stickers in parking lot

~ be

– – – – – – –

Just got wind of of this.

From anonymous email (probably an anti)

“From: Rudolph Red <birdtoldme@gmail.com>
Date: April 4, 2009 12:11:02 AM MDT
Subject: You are invited to a party in Hailey tonite
What: ‘Canadian Wolf Alert’
Who: Deer Hunters of Idaho and Citizens for the proper management of Canadian Wolves
Where: Community Campus in Hailey
When: Saturday, April 4, 6-10pm
Who will be in attendance? IDFG Director Cal Groen and IDFG Region 4 Regional Supervisor Jerome Hansen
How to dress: Come as you are
You are the only recepient of this message. Spread the word and do the right thing.”
– – – – – –
Also supposedly Ron Gillett will hold forth on the panel.  This is a public meeting. There are supposed to be conservation officers present to maintain order.

 
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About The Author

Ralph Maughan

Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University with specialties in natural resource politics, public opinion, interest groups, political parties, voting and elections. Aside from academic publications, he is author or co-author of three hiking/backpacking guides, and he is President of the Western Watersheds Project.

243 Responses to Big anti?wolf meeting tonight in Hailey, ID

  1. avatar Mike says:

    Sort of like a KKK rally, except the subject of scorn is a wolf.

  2. avatar jdubya says:

    Why are they worried about the Canadian wolves? I would have expected them to be worked up about the Idaho wolves.

    Too bad I am not in Hailey 2nite: I could wear my “bambi’s mother” t shirt.

  3. avatar Brian Ertz says:

    Gillett’s gettin himself all worked up before the “presentation” – we were just approached by a couple of the organizers and told to ” shut the F@&$ing camera off” – these folk aren’t very polite

  4. avatar mikarooni says:

    I hear it’s pretty clear “the subject of scorn is a wolf” only because they have already harassed all of “the subject of scorn” of the original KKK out of Idaho.

  5. I’d caution folks to be thoughtful posting on this thread.

    No one wants to sound like a mirror image of Gillett.

  6. avatar Mike says:

    ++Why are they worried about the Canadian wolves? I would have expected them to be worked up about the Idaho wolves. ++

    hahahha

  7. avatar Ken Cole says:

    This seems very unprofessional that IDFG officials would show up at such an event.

    This is a conflict of interest.

  8. avatar Salle says:

    But these are their buddies and tha actual people they think they represent and anyone else should butt out. their perception of “public” is only in reference to those who they invite, the rest of what most of us consider “the public” aren’t welcome because they might have different views on the subject they are interested in promoting. Just ask them…

    Like many of the hearings I’ve been to, the “invitees” have lots of notice about the “public” events and the actual public, as most of us might interpret the term, find out about these “public” events either less than a day prior or even after they take place. That’s the way they do it in Idaho. It’s kind of like they have the same alphabet we all use only all the vowels are missing.

  9. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    This does sound like a Klan rally.

  10. avatar Chuck says:

    I wonder who Ron will beat up tonight??? if this isn’t an example of IDFG’s true colors then I don’t know what is. I am sure the lie’s will be spilling over in Hailey tonight.

  11. avatar John d. says:

    Thems giant Canadian monster wolves the Feds illegally dumped here is part of an eco-terrorist anti-human conspiracy to ruin businesses, slaughter our game and kill our children when our backs is turned! Its all backed by biologists and is an undue burden on all of us I tells ya!

    Sorry… couldn’t resist.
    Seriously though this is disturbing in a way.

  12. avatar Salle says:

    This is more like a follow-up to my earlier comments on how Idaho is proud of its ignorance (or ignorants-?). People like Ron G. are so wound up about people who are more intelligent and, therefore, evil because such people are intent on destroying the blissful stupidity of which Ron G. is a champion. And they are mana for politicians like Craig and Crapo when they go out spewing falsities of life in the west in exchange for votes.

    Many of these folks are so afraid of anything/anyone that dispels their romanticized mythology that they have to be dealt with using brute force and ignorance intimidation tactics. If they only knew how transparent and unacceptable this line of bull has become as more people realize the farce they promote…

    This is a practice and situation that screams for nation-wide scrutiny…

    Manifest destiny/eugenics exposed.

  13. avatar kt says:

    But Fish and Game IS BECOMING Ron Gillette. The Farm Bureau and Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife now run the Department in Butch Otter’s Cowman and Woolgrower Idaho … where we don’t believe in the germ theory of disease – Instead bighorn sheep just spontaneously self-destruct for unknown reasons.

    I bet the Hailey meeting was set up to bait enviros. Some incident would be created, some enviros lured in, and assault, trespassing or other charges filed. Fish and Game doing the bidding of the Farm Bureau and Comm’r WayneWright already tried this once before with the head of Western Watersheds. The meeting was on public property at the FG office – but they ginned up a confllict AFTER the mtg. Then alas Fish and Game’s little lying scheme was foiled because there was a witness.

    ALSO – Nuke Energy Plant thugs did this last year with a meeting held on a proposed nuke plant at an old restored Opera house in Glenns Ferry – held a “public” (NOT) meeting. There was a 300 lb. person blocking the door – and when a Twin Falls Doctor and anti-nuke activist who photos show looks thin as a rail tried to enter past the fat man blocking the door – he was charged – and now convicted of battery.

    We have to understand: These people in Idaho that are buddies of Butch Otter are evil – hate the natural world, hate wildlife, and worship – as far as I can tell – onlythe back end of a cow or a big pair of horns.

  14. avatar Marc Cooke says:

    Concerning the wolf haters. There is no dought in my mind at somepoint in the near future they (Wolf Haters) are going to get physical and attack, hurt or even kill a wolf enthusiast. They harbor to much anger.
    I suspect it will come after the next Federal challenge when the wolves are relisted to ESA. The last resort of a limited mind is violence. It will be a very sad day when this happens, and it will happen.

  15. avatar Rainbow says:

    Ralph, you were right to caution your posters about sounding like extremists, but I’m afraid it was unheeded. To neutral parties, just as with the example you cited (which apparently is well understood on this blogsite)- ignorant rants generally turn the gentle reader in the other direction.

    Many posters here really are as far removed from logic and sound reasoning as the extremists on the other side of the issue they rail against.

    jdubya said: “Too bad I am not in Hailey 2nite: I could wear my “bambi’s mother” t shirt.” This reflects a terrible misunderstanding of the pro-wolf management crowd (one of pro-management’s biggest beefs with increasing wolf numbers is depredation of ungulate mommies by wolves).

    mikarooni said: “I hear it’s pretty clear “the subject of scorn is a wolf” only because they have already harassed all of “the subject of scorn” of the original KKK out of Idaho.” um… are you aware of the events surrounding the aryan nations group compound in northern Idaho a few years back? Idahoans (pro-wolf management or otherwise) aren’t really crazy about KKK types and in fact find them quite repulsive. Your choice of the nebulous phrase, “the subject of scorn” in your post either reflects ignorance or downright rudeness to those of various races or creeds.

    What I find interesting is that extremists on the pro-management side of the issue have just as much black-helicopter syndrome paranoia about Idaho Fish and Game, Otter, etc. as the posters here (KT et al). But rather than claim something as silly as “hate” of “the natural world” and “wildlife,” there are extremists on the pro-management side of the issue who would purport that those same bodies cow-tow to federal dollars and are infultrated by those who would do anything (legal or otherwise) to prevent any kind of hunting.

  16. avatar jdubya says:

    Rainbow, you ever heard of “humor” or “dry wit”? Do you honestly think my “bambi’s mother ” t shirt comment was ” a terrible misunderstanding of the pro-wolf management crowd”?? What rock do you think I just crawled out from under? Better yet, what rock (or Ozark hollow) did you just crawl out from under?

    I have a good memory for Don Peay quotes. One of them he proferred when the Utah DWR/RACS were reviewing our ill-fated wolf management plan was how cruel it was to allow wolves to kill the female and young of deer and elk. He quoted his wife at how horrified she was at the idea of a predator actually eating its prey. That image alone was supposed to convince us that having wolves (and cats and bears, etc) in the state was unconsionable and we should instead manage deer/elk populations with rifles and arrows. Just one big happy carefully managed game park.

  17. avatar Gloria says:

    All these assumed postulations by people that apparently weren’t even at the meeting seem like a big waste of time. Why not wait for Brian’s post giving out the real information and then give your comments based on real facts?

  18. avatar Tom Page says:

    A couple things to note:

    The meeting was “sponsored” by Deer Hunters of Idaho, so it wasn’t an IDFG event…the local IDFG event was a few weeks ago and most people just dropped by to comment on the seasons and whatever else they wanted to discuss. It was very low-key and, as I wrote on this blog at the time, it was a bit surprising (in a good way) to see the support for more holistic management. Hailey is fairly liberal for Idaho (Obama won 2:1 here) and most people are supportive of reasonable wolf management. It’s significant that only 30 people (or so) came to this recent event in a county of about 30,000.

    Part of what has generated recent hysteria is the downvalley wanderings of the Phantom Hill Pack and a few other wolves. They’ve really keyed on the feedgrounds of late, and the feedgrounds here are very close to residential areas in many places. Thus, lots of people are seeing wolves in the backyard, and the gossip builds on itself. I’ve heard rumors that IDFG is going to push for decisions on what to do about the feedgrounds (most of which are private efforts). A large percentage of the elk in Blaine County are on the feedgrounds for the winter, so trying to shut them will be politically very difficult.

  19. Tom,

    Thanks. I was a bit confused whether this was a public meeting or a private meeting in a public place with public officials attending.

    It seems that Ron Gillette and his friends travel around to where there have been recent wolf sightings and incidents and stir the pot. So the visible presence of the Phantom Hill pack would certainly stir up those predisposed to that.

    For example, Gillette recently had a meeting in Ashton, (eastern) Idaho where wolves have migrated onto winter ranges. I heard some wolves recently grabbed a dog, and that it was then grabbed back by its owner — lucky he didn’t get bit if this is correct!

    Most close incidents between people and wolves in North America have in fact involved dogs (the wolves’ real interest).

    I didn’t do a story on it because I was in Arizona all that month.

  20. avatar Rainbow says:

    JW-

    So what you’re saying is that an anti-management person wearing a pro-management t-shirt at a rally sponsored by pro-management is somehow “dryly humorous?” You’re right. That went over my head. My apologies.

    You used the phrase “Ozark” as if thats a bad thing- why are you predjudiced against a particular people? (and yes, I did understand and resent the attempted name-calling. If you want to dispute my posts and maintain intellectual respect, please stick to quoting and refuting on basis of quotes).

    You do make a good point though, wolves taking mothers and young of ungulate populations is a reality, rather than the usual “weeding out of the old and sick” mythos. This is certainly not a matter of cruelty/morality (otherwise your comment about the relatively quick death by arrow or bullet would be quite relevant, I’m sure we all understand) but rather a matter of predator/prey biology that definitely needs to play an important factor in management decisions in a post-settlement Idaho environment.

    I agree with Gloria- I’d like to know what (if anything) really happened in Hailey. From what I’ve been able to gather, this was a poorly organized, barely publicized meeting. I’ve read several (conflicting) accounts of what this was. Some treated the event like it was to be a protest, with loud vocal fringe types touting “down with all wolves” placards, other accounts said this was to be a continuation of the PBS panel – style discussion to include Mr. Gillette, Ms. Stone, Mr. Groen etc.

    Though I’m quite aware of how a blogsite’s polarized members will often spin an event (I’m sure many contributors and lurkers on this blog watch websites on both sides of this conversation and know what I’m referring to), I was hoping I could find some less than anecdotal information here from Ralph about who was actually present.

  21. Rainbow,

    I wasn’t present because I don’t live near Hailey.

    Brian Ertz and several other conservationists were there. Brian indicated he is preparing a story on the meeting, probably with audio.

  22. avatar Mike says:

    Rainbow –

    I think your comments are off the mark. This crowd showing up at the anti-wolf rally is a dangerous crowd that specifically seeks out in-your-face confrontations with wolves and wolf enthusiasts. They are full of anger and carry concealed weapons, not a very appealing combination. The only thing they understand is the meathead tactics of which they dish out. Civility and logic is seen as a weakness by them, and they will belly slam their way into the bar if they can even sense a hint of that.

    Make no mistake, this is a hate rally, nothing more. The real problem is that these people have the ability to cause serious harm.

  23. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    Thems giant Canadian monster wolves the Feds illegally dumped here is part of an eco-terrorist anti-human conspiracy to ruin businesses, slaughter our game and kill our children when our backs is turned! Its all backed by biologists and is an undue burden on all of us I tells ya!

    Sorry… couldn’t resist.
    Seriously though this is disturbing in a way.

    My sentiments exactly, but I also have to agree with Mike:

    Make no mistake, this is a hate rally, nothing more. The real problem is that these people have the ability to cause serious harm. This group does have the potential to cause real harm and this kind of extreme behavior is very dangerous. They should be watched not so much for their anti-wolf views but because they are showing this kind of behavior. I just pray that law enforcement in Idaho pays attention to this.

  24. avatar kt says:

    And make no Mistake: The Hate Mentality of many of these folks does not stop with wolves. It includes people they consider The Other – and who, like with wolves, they fear and think they have to show their dominance over.

  25. avatar Salle says:

    Unfortunately, law enforcement interest in Idaho concerning these clowns is nonexistent, guns aren’t checked at the door when US Senators and Cabinet advisors are present, why would they give a hoot if some pro-wildlife folks get threatened?

    :Lest we forget that Ron G. drove from his house out to the road to attack Lynne Stone last year at about this time and he injured her, she was armed with a camera and taking pictures of wolves that’s what he attacked her for.

    I have had personal interaction with that same blow-hard out in the Frank Church and fortunately there were twenty-three witnesses/my clients so he didn’t dare try to get physical with me. But he certainly thought he could intimidate me by yelling profanity and telling me he was going to get me fired from my job… even with all those folks watching, listening and taking pictures.

    As for the attack on Lynne Stone, even though she filed charges, he got nothing for the assault.

    And then, as Mike said, “This crowd showing up at the anti-wolf rally is a dangerous crowd that specifically seeks out in-your-face confrontations with wolves and wolf enthusiasts. They are full of anger and carry concealed weapons, not a very appealing combination. The only thing they understand is the meathead tactics of which they dish out. Civility and logic is seen as a weakness by them, and they will belly slam their way into the bar if they can even sense a hint of that.”

    This is exactly what you can expect from them consistently through time. This is the way those mythology of the west believers act when they are confronted with reason and the social contract most Americans embrace.

    I thought we were being rather polite about them while we wait for Brian’s info. Just listen to Ron G. in that series of comments he belts out…

  26. avatar Layton says:

    Oh —- my —– God!!!!

    Tinfoil hats and paranoia abound!! NEVER have I seen such a collection of little old ladies and little old lady complexes!!

    Conspiracy anyone??

    KT linked it to the bad, bad range cow folk and nuclear activists. Someone else just KNOWS (cuz there’s not a “dought” in his mind) that these bad anti wolf folk are going to harm a gentle wolfie rooter.

    But yet ever eloquent Salle expresses the opposite opinion– that these folks are ” so afraid of anything/anyone that dispels their romanticized mythology that they have to be dealt with using brute force and ignorance intimidation tactics”.

    Gee, it’s wonderful that she’s taken time away from her next monumental scientific breakthrough to favor those that will listen with her normal, hate filled rhetoric against anything/anybody eternally damned by any association with Idaho.

    Oh yes, and the KKK!! Well heck, everyone knows (cuz Mickarooni tell them) they are right there with the evil livestock producers in maintaining the conspiracies against anything green in that aforementioned backward state.

    What a marvelous amount of sheer, abject drivel!!

  27. avatar John says:

    It seems that hysteria is alive and well. I can honestly say that I didn’t expect this kind of emotional banter from the likes of this educated group. The Irony of it is staggering, I could substitute alot of your comments with the wolf haters about wolves and they are identically hysteria driven. I’m glad that neither polar opposite is in charge of the situation.

  28. avatar Wyo Native says:

    Layton and John,

    Well said!!

    Many of these folks on this blog sit and wonder why it is so hard to “Educate” those that have a different opinion than theirs.

    A quick glance at this thread or the comments on this blog in general since November, is evidence enough why they are failing in their ventures.

  29. avatar Brian Ertz says:

    Layton, John, & Wyo Native,

    Sit back & enjoy the comfort of your self-aggrandized so-called “restraint”. Does not believing in anything – not caring – make you feel “right”? Wise? The truth is, your presumptive comment is as guilty of ignorance as is any that you project on anyone else – the hypocracy of it, the apathy & lack of empathy/sympathy for the subject is the real shortcoming of which none of the others’ comments are guilty.

    “Emotional banter”, “hysteria” ? You are fools. Let us be allowed to be honest – the hollow so-called “restraint” imposed on wolf-advocates by themselves & the likes of you is as responsible for the thoughtless killing of wolves as anything.

    The only thing worse than hysteria is the false claim of it.

  30. avatar Wyo Native says:

    One last thing, who ever this Ron Gillette guy is in the provided audio, the same can be said about him and his followers.

  31. avatar Craig says:

    If an Anti wolf person came one here and made the (just for fun) comments most of you made, you all would have thrown a shit fit! It goes both ways people, I feel a lot of you do seem like Ron Gillette just on the other side! And by the way I think he is a total Idiot and has know right to speak on behalf of any Hunter here in Idaho. He is nuts and I’m surprised he isn’t in jail yet.

  32. avatar Lynne Stone says:

    Regarding last night’s anti-wolf rally in Hailey. The event was apparently organized by two Bellevue residents, Billy Ward and Matt Douthitt, who proudly proclaim themselves as “predator killers” and are aligned with the world’s #1 wolf foe, Ron Gillett. Ward and Douthitt are upset that the Phantom Hill wolves started feeding on the 3600 elk that are on winter range in the Wood River Valley including near Ketchum and Sun Valley.

    Regarding the Phantom Hill wolves, in the past six weeks, for hundreds of residents here, it was the opportunity of a lifetime, to view the ten beautiful Phantom Hill black wolves, putting on a display of nature, that most people have to visit Yellowstone to experience.

    Back to the anti-wolf meeting, I heard on Friday, that Idaho Dept. of Fish and Game Director, Cal Groen, was going to attend the Saturday anti-wolf rally, along with our new IDFG regional manager, Jerome Hanson. Ron Gillett was to be the featured speaker at the event. Since IDFG was going to be present, I wanted to attend.

    Several friends contacted me about going to the meeting as well, but were afraid for their safety, because threats have been made recently in various ways. So, I called the Hailey Police Dept. and another person contacted the Blaine County Sheriff. Calls were also made to IDFG law enforcement.

    Long story shortened, when I arrived at the Blaine County Community Campus to attend the meeting, there were FIVE law enforcement vehicles in the parking lot and a strong presence of officers in the auditorium.

    I stayed long enough to hear Matt Douthitt, Billy Ward, and Ron Gillett relate one false statement after another. Two more anti-wolf speakers followed Gillett, and then Cal Groen spoke on behalf of IDFG.

    One audience member referred to Ron Gillett as “General Gillett”. I expected the audience of 100 people or so, to stand up and give Gillett a straight arm salute and click their boots.

    Without the guarantee of police presence, I would have not felt safe going to this anti-wolf meeting in a school district facility in Blaine County. An armed policeman escorted me to my vehicle when I left the meeting.

  33. avatar Craig says:

    Lynne: That is terrible that a PUBLIC meeting would have to have such security and I am glad you at least had the balls to show up and be present! Again these people represent the vast Minorty of law abiding Hunters who support Ethics and the true Hunting tradition!

  34. avatar kt says:

    Somebody needs to get the Gillette audio into the hands of higher-ups OTHER THAN the despicable Ken Salazar in the Obama administration. THIS is what rancher Ken Salazar has released wolves into. The raging hatred and gun nut paranoia that is Butch Otter’s Idaho.

  35. avatar Rose says:

    Anybody that thinks people are overreacting or hysterical about the anti-wolf rally in Hailey last night obviously wasn’t there. There was real intimidation. I along with IDFG and law enforcement witnessed Ron G.’s call for the grass roots, civil disobedient killing of wolves – illegal violence.
    What would be an appropriate reaction to this?

  36. avatar Craig says:

    Just Listening to the Audio proves how insane these people are and that’s why they DON”T have very many followers!

  37. Folks who want wider distribution should click on the “share button” at the bottom of the post.

  38. avatar Save bears says:

    Anybody that does not think Ron is crazy, has never met him…I really wish the case against him when he assaulted Lynn would have be re-tried…and he would have been convicted, and people please don’t think it is only Idaho that has this type of situation, Gillett just happens to be one of the most vocal..

    Ron is a very scary person with an agenda….

  39. avatar Save bears says:

    Craig,

    Unfortunately, they have far more followers than anybody realizes, but in this day and age, most don’t speak up…I have witnessed it first hand…

  40. avatar Brian Ertz says:

    I’m afraid that Save bears is probably right — I don’t think it’s correct to suggest that this vein of resentment is as marginal a thing as many would hope – after all, IDFG Director Cal Groen and the regional director showed up ! Whether it’s economic, cultural, or political opportunism – or whatever, KT is right, Salazar/Obama just introduced wolves into a socio-political environment (Livestock Culture of Death) of hostility. It just so happens that the people that feel this way are the people with the most opportunity to do so given Idaho’s permissive laws, the heavily politicized IDFG, etc.

  41. avatar Salle says:

    Oh Layton,

    You’re just jealous.

  42. avatar Layton says:

    “I hear it’s pretty clear “the subject of scorn is a wolf” only because they have already harassed all of “the subject of scorn” of the original KKK out of Idaho.”

    “That’s the way they do it in Idaho. It’s kind of like they have the same alphabet we all use only all the vowels are missing.”

    “This does sound like a Klan rally.”

    “I am sure the lie’s will be spilling over in Hailey tonight.”

    “Idaho is proud of its ignorance (or ignorants-?).”

    ” bet the Hailey meeting was set up to bait enviros. Some incident would be created, some enviros lured in, and assault, trespassing or other charges filed”

    “The last resort of a limited mind is violence.”

    “Make no mistake, this is a hate rally, nothing more. The real problem is that these people have the ability to cause serious harm.”

    Etc., etc.,etc., —– ad nauseum.

    Excuse me Brian, but I really don’t see many signs of this “restraint” that you speak of among the wolf advocates.

    However, I do see some “hints” of a bit of hysteria and conspiracy theories from that same group — in addition to a healthy hatred of and disdain for Idaho.

    “Does not believing in anything – not caring – make you feel “right”? ”

    Sorry, you are waaaaaayy off base here. I do care — I care a lot, I just happen to have a different opinion than you do!!

  43. The audio, which is generally what he has been say for a long time, and Fish and Game’s new acquiescence to his views, shows why Idaho cannot be given management of the wolves.

    Idaho Fish and Game leadership has no will and no capability. There were just beaten up again in the legislature this week by Senator Siddoway, the sheep and elk farmer, hamstringing the department’s feeble efforts to prevent Idaho’s bighorn sheep population from disappearing.

    They are pushed around by every interest group out there except for conservationists.

  44. avatar kim kaiser says:

    squeeky wheels get the oil!!! and they are squeeking louder and apparently more effectively than pro wolf,, look at the results at the highest levels who brought this down. if case you need to be reminded one more time, Salazar, who was appointed by you know who,

  45. avatar Craig says:

    Save bears, that may be true but they still are not the mojority! I have friends that fall into this type of thinking and all I can do is try to educate them and try to get them to read forums such as what Ralph provides.
    That’s why what is said on here means a lot more than the anti sites! I can see the differnce and use my own judgement to filter the BS from the truth. But the childish name calling ect on here only makes this site conterproductive!

  46. avatar Save bears says:

    Craig,

    Unfortunately it does not take a majority to make a movement, we saw that very well in the mid 60’s and many people died because of it..far to many.

  47. Layton,

    I don’t hear conservationists advocating breaking the law. They file lawsuits, but then that is a civil liberty.

    There is a difference between trying to accomplish your objectives legally versus illegally.

    Now Gillett may say he is advocating civil disobedience, and someone quick on their feet may say that’s what Tim De Christopher did.

    However, De Christopher disrupted the lease sale in full public view, knowing he might go to jail; and it look like he might.

    Gillett and friends will only be engaging in civil disobedience if they openly kill wolves and bring the carcasses to the Fish and Game COs, and say I shot the wolf out of protest.

    It is tax time, generally not a happy time.

    Failure to pay your taxes is not civil disobedience unless you tell the IRS, I am not paying my taxes this year. Just cheating is no civil disobedience.

  48. avatar Craig says:

    Sorry I was born in 71 so I missed that, but I’d like to think education could help us learn from our past mistakes!

  49. avatar Brian Ertz says:

    DeChristopher did not call for nor commit violence.

  50. avatar Save bears says:

    Craig,

    I agree, I have been touting education for a long time now, unfortunately, I have been told I am naive…

    Brian,

    DeChristopher has nothing to do with this subject, wolves are seen as violent and hence you have a very scary group out there that believe violence begets violence..

    READ
    ~ be

  51. avatar Craig says:

    Save bears sdays: I agree, I have been touting education for a long time now, unfortunately, I have been told I am naive…

    Yes it’s a hard road but one well worth it!!!!

  52. avatar Lynne Stone says:

    Re. KT’s earlier post, that the Hailey anti-wolf meeting might have been held in order to “bait” pro-wolf people into getting into trouble. Many times when you have an encounter with someone, it is your word against theirs – unless, you are recording the conversation.

    I urge anyone that works on conservation issues, whether it be trying to help wolves, stop grazing abuse, halt a mine, protect wild lands, or whatever, to obtain a hand held voice recorder and take it with you wherever you go. You can also record phone conversations with some devices.

    I bought a high end digital voice recorder after the jury trial last August in Challis, where I listened to Ron Gillett and his nasty attorney, lie about Gillett’s assault on me that almost broke my hand. The papers characterized the trial testimony as “he said, she said”. The verdict was a hung jury. I considered that a win since three of the six jurors said outright, they didn’t like wolves. But a few days later, I bought a recorder that can pick up voices, a football field away. The next time, Ron Gillett or one of his goons, comes after me, and it’s very likely to happen, he/they — will be speaking into the mike.

  53. Save Bears,

    I brought up De Christopher, not Brian. My purpose was to show what real civil disobedience is.

    Gillett says he is advocating civil disobedience. He is advocating violent resistance.

  54. avatar Save bears says:

    Ralph,

    I agree, Gillett is not advocating Civil Disobedience, he is advocating Violence.

    As I stated last year, when Lynn was attacked, I fear that somebody will again be hurt or worse, killed before this is over, Ron is a man on a mission and he has no regard for those who disagree with him, I, during my active time in the military fought against zealots and understand a bit about them, there is no changing their mind and unfortunately even if they don’t want to, they get caught up in the “moment”

    I rarely go into the field with out a sidearm, because I know there are those that really disagree with what I do, it is just the reality of the current situation..

  55. avatar Save bears says:

    And I apologize to Brian..

  56. avatar Salle says:

    I agree with the education aspect but I am starting to think that it isn’t going to work on folks like Ron G. and his supporters. You can lead a mind to knowledge but you can’t make it think…

    I am sorry that this is so. One might think that in a world leading country where education is a value blatant expression of non-knowledge wouldn’t be found in such wide-spread display.

    I have been to many a public and “nonpublic” hearing/meeting in numerous states and only in Idaho, Wyoming and (in lesser numbers) in Montana have I found the type of hatemongering/fearmongering of wildlife as this. And the politicians rely on this. I’ve seen it when dealing with Crapo, Craig, Kempthorne, Otter and their ilk along with the state agency yes-men who do their bidding. I’ve lived, worked and voted in Idaho long enough to know which way the wind blows… I don’t hate Idaho, I love the place… It’s the people that make it such a sorry butt of so many jokes.

    Ralph and Brian are right about civil disobedience, you have to be willing to pay the price for it as well as announce why you have broken the law. Ron G. and company are encouraging the opposite backed up with violence and threats of violence toward people and wildlife. A severe weakness of credibility… among other things.

  57. avatar Craig says:

    I’d bet if lynns case was in Boise the outcome would have been differen’t!

  58. avatar Salle says:

    Maybe so.

  59. avatar Tom Page says:

    BE + RM –

    It’s certainly unfortunate that Cal Groen chose to speak at a Gillett event, and it does indicate that IDFG may believe it’s better to show up than to ignore the guy at this point in time – with IDFG wolf management really just beginning. It would be interesting to hear his off-the-record reasons for attendance – as you note in your article, Gillett isn’t saying anything he’s said before.

    I still disagree that there are lots of guys out there willing to break the law and brag about it…why wouldn’t they have already done so? I know at least 15 guys that hunt here in Hailey, plus the guys I’ve run into in the field. Out of that total, I think I’ve met one spouting this kind of stuff and he wasn’t even getting out of the truck to actually hunt.

    One thing that would be interesting to learn is the demographics of wolf politics – age, tenure in ID, income, occupation, that sort of thing.

    As Lynne noted, many residents are excited to see the wolves, even if there may be some trepidation when they show up in your backyard. Ultimately, I think this will provide the wolves with some measure of protection.

  60. avatar Tom Page says:

    Oops….corrected statement in first paragraph should read “Gillett isn’t saying anything he HASN’T said before”

  61. avatar Rose says:

    His reference to “the best Civil Disobedience he has ever heard of,” was about a group of ranchers in Eastern Idaho that are going to get a restraining order on the IDFG so that they cannot come on their property, and begin the killing of the wolves. In talking about them paying any price, he doesn’t think anything will be done about it, nor does he care. Given the IDFG and police officers that attended, I can see why he thinks that. Keep in mind that all of this “taking action into their own hands” were not just BS ideas, they were being presented as an actual plan…

  62. avatar kt says:

    Lynne writes from bitter experience about the sad and sorry state of being a public land activist in a place like Idaho run by evil men. They WILL lay traps for you. That involve local law people, too – in Backwater Cowboy places like Owyhee County or central Idaho. They WILL set up situations where they think they have you. So be on the Look Out. And glide smilingly away, chattering about Global Warming or something that jabs back – that You communicate that you know what they are up to.

    In Gillette’s rant, he talks about some meeting in Ashton. I wonder if any national level law person might want to look into that meeting. Recall it was eastern Idaho – Rexburg ? Rigby (?) where the school kids were chanting very nasty things on the bus (after listening to their parents) right after the election about Obama.

    And always remember: Idaho IS the Hate State.

  63. avatar Craig says:

    kt Says:”And always remember: Idaho IS the Hate State.” OOOOOOOOOk I’ll never forget it and always live by that saying if you say it’s so!

  64. I wouldn’t say Idaho is “the hate state.”

    There are too many examples from other states to really say that.

    I will say that many parts of rural Idaho and other rural Western places have not adjusted well to change even as they failed to do any constructive to stop it or guide it.

    The prominence of folks like Gillett will give the country an impression, however, and in these hard times it might even take an economic toll.

    For a bad place, I’d choose rural southern Utah.

  65. avatar Gloria says:

    The Facts:
    I didn’t realize that Brian was not documenting the entire meeting or I would have spoken up a little earlier. First of all, last Wednesday’s Idaho Mtn. Express newspaper, had a good size paid ad for this meeting, 4” X 4 ¾” in addition to having the announcement in the “Calendar of Events” for the week. And, in the “NEWS BRIEFS” of the same paper was: “Hunters sponsor wolf info meeting: Deer Hunters of Idaho is sponsoring an informational meeting about wolves in Idaho on Saturday, April 4, from 6-10 p.m. at the Community campus in Hailey.” I do not know if it was mentioned in the Friday edition. During the meeting, thanks were given to all the good folks that had taken the time to put up notices all over town. I didn’t see any of these, because I didn’t go to town, but it sounds as though it was pretty well advertised. And of course, there were all the emails and phone calls. Only one of the people that I contacted showed up. I understand that there were actually about 100 people in attendance. The meeting ran from 6 to 10 PM as advertised.
    The meeting was kept well under control by two Hailey Police officers and 2 armed IDFG officers. Even Ron Gillette, who got to speak twice, kept his cool and didn’t even get red in the face; said he did all his kicking and screaming before he came to the meeting. This is the only local meeting I’ve been to that the Hailey Police felt they should be chaperoning.
    Matt Douthitt, president of “Deer Hunters of Idaho”, opened the meeting and explained that he was not a good public speaker. He wasn’t lying; even with all his strange convictions, he droned on for what seemed like forever, making it hard to stay awake. He announced at the beginning of the meeting that no cameras, camcorders, cell phones or any other recording devices were allowed if not previously authorized, and if someone was caught using one, they would be thrown out. We all know now that they missed at least one. The Mtn. Express and Plum TV were there, possibly some others. To Matt’s credit (and I’m sure the law enforcement’s), he announced that no one was to interrupt a speaker and that anyone that wished to speak, had to sign up on a card at the front door. Speakers were limited to 3 minutes each; later I discovered that only seemed to apply to people that disagreed with him.
    Speakers included Billy Ward, of Bellevue, “I am a predator hunter who hunts coyotes, mountain lions and bears, as well as big game. Some of you may not like my passion but this is a large part of big game management.” (http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005118045&var_Year=2007&var_Month=11&var_Day=16 ), had nothing of interest to say, just repeating the same fear mongering this group espouses. Our gentle readers have heard a small part of Ron Gillette’s hateful speech, for which he was resoundingly applauded. Some of the other speakers were Tony Mayer, (http://www.saveelk.com/ ), “….take the time to look at our pictures. These pictures don’t lie – Don’t you have any feeling for what is happening to our defenseless elk and deer? Your approach is ruthless and absolutely unconscionable“ just look at these pictures. This non-native wolf is literally inflicting genocide on our ungulate population. There has to be some sanity about this situation. Wolves cannot be allowed to simply grow unobstructed and wipe out a species.” (http://wolfcrossing.org/2008/02/09/one-of-our-faithful-readers-sounds-off-america-is-dead-when-the-will-of-the-majority-overwhelms-the-rights-of-the-minority-and-legal-classes-are-teaching-it/ ), Tim Kemery, of Challis, “….My sons and I have ridden hundreds of miles horseback in the Frank Church and in the White Clouds and have viewed the devastation firsthand. Let me inform you that most of the small herds of elk have been totally destroyed in the last ten years………” (http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005124690 ), Sun Valley’s Mayor, Wayne Willich, “Willich has repeatedly voiced concerns about the presence of predators drawn to the hills above his city by wintering elk.” (http://www.mesillavalleysportsmen.com/2009/03/predator-clash-wolves-kill-mtn-lion.html ), Cal Groen, IDFG Director, who stated he only disagreed with RG on 3 points. Jerome Hanson, our new Regional Manager was there but didn’t speak. Jennifer Swigert had her same tale of how much she loves the wolves and they are killing everything! Wildlife photographer Larry Thorngren was one of the few that spoke and simply stated that the group needs to stop worrying about the size and genetics of the wolves, because they are already here, and perhaps start talking with the groups that have the opposing views and work something out. He was the only speaker that kept to his 3 minutes and was rewarded with dead silence. Everyone else was loudly applauded.
    To sum it up, the speakers were terribly boring, they spoke waaay too long and seemed to have difficulty remembering what they wanted to say and reading their notes. Basically, they all said that most of the elk in the state have been killed by the wolves and the wolves are going to kill every one’s kids next and couldn’t stop discussing that the re-introduced wolves are big Canadian monster wolves that weigh 200 lbs. each and are much bigger and kill more than the little original native Idaho wolves that the hunters previously exterminated. They were really fixated on that. The other thing they kept talking about was how horrible it was for the elk to be killed by the wolves. I guess the elk enjoy being shot and gutted only by hunters. The group was selling photographs, tee shirts and bumper stickers all showing either just a dead elk carcass or a dead elk with wolves eating it and a lot of blood. (The same old pix can be seen on their website.) They didn’t mention that wolves don’t completely devour their kill all at once; they return to it hours, days, maybe longer before they completely finish it. And what sane wolf is going to hang around his meal when there are snowmobilers and photographers right there, as you will see in some of the pix? They were also fixated on verbally attacking Cal Groen, who is on their side, or blaming all their troubles on Lynne Stone, BWCC, who attended the beginning of the meeting, left early without speaking, and wasn’t even there to hear them attacking her. Several, including Ron Gilettte, spoke in favor of “civil disobedience” and going out immediately and start killing wolves. By the time it was their turn, most of the audience and those that wanted to comment had already left.
    I went with an open mind to hopefully educate myself on the wolf issues and really only heard a lot of what sounded like untruths and propaganda to me.
    I couldn’t find anything today on the web sites “Save Our Elk” or “Deer Hunters of Idaho” regarding last night’s meeting. However, if you wish to wade through it and read more verbal attacks on LS, Greg Farber also reported on the meeting, in his usual style and manner: http://blog.sunvalleyonline.com/index.php/2009/04/05/april-4th-and-another-wolf-meeting-come-and-gone/

  66. avatar Narcissus says:

    two words: effing rednecks.

    That’s basically all I have to say.

  67. avatar Jay-K says:

    Maybe if wolves would have been managed like the good folks were promised SEVEN years ago we wouldnt be facing revolutionary tactics to set common ground?

  68. avatar Save bears says:

    Narcissus,

    And the “rednecks” would have a reply for you, 3 words

    “effing city folk”

    Now can we get passed this BS?

  69. avatar Mike says:

    Wyo Native –

    ++Many of these folks on this blog sit and wonder why it is so hard to “Educate” those that have a different opinion than theirs.++

    Some people are simply past the ability to be educated. What it would take for many them to change is some sort of life altering event that would completely reconfigure their way of thinking – like the Rush Limbaugh listener who hated social security all his life, then got sick and discovered he needed social security to make ends meet.

    The people posting on this blog are not actively seeking this group out, or going out of their way to harrass anti-wolf people while brandishing concealed weapons in a quasi gang warfare type of behaviour. We are simply responding to their extremism with the kind of comments that follow this sort of behaviour.

  70. avatar kt says:

    Oh I think Idaho wins the Hate State mantle hands down. It’s legacy of white supremacism. Gillette. The same clique of State Level wolf haters even Hate bighorn sheep!

  71. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    “only in Idaho, Wyoming and (in lesser numbers) in Montana have I found the type of hatemongering/fearmongering of wildlife as this.”

    This is very true Salle. In these states it is fashionable to be anti-wolf and anti-wildlife and to fear anything that might be slightly construed as being “liberal.” This includes anything that is not aligned with 19th century politics to a lot of people. I think if you were to ask the average person from either of these three states why they are anti-wolf they will spout of a line that they have heard and probably do not really believe, much as how they will blame liberals for everything that is wrong with America while ignoring mistakes made by conservatives. I know that I am very careful here to even bring up the word “wolf” as so many people in this state will go on tirades and make it sound like you are committing high treason.

    *I would say though that in my experience Montana has more hate and fear mongering with wildlife than Wyoming.

  72. avatar Brian Ertz says:

    Please note Gloria’s account of the meeting.

    Probably the only one to stick the whole thing through

  73. avatar Mike says:

    Listening to the audio.

    “canadian wolves are animals of mass destruction”

    “monster wolf pack”

    “they crave hot blood”

    lol

  74. avatar John d. says:

    “canadian wolves are animals of mass destruction”

    Almost makes me wonder what he would have called them if the attack on America and invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq never happened.

  75. Gloria,

    Thank you for your detailed post about the whole of the meeting and publicity beforehand, etc. The only publicity I got was the email I posted.

    John d.

    I like your point. I have had the same thought. Although it is really just a small group of people, this vocal fear of wolves must make those in other places think Americans lack a gram of bravery or sense about the outdoors.

    On the other hand, people come to Yellowstone from everywhere and with various degrees of excitement watch wolves chase elk and kill them about 20% of the time, watch elk chase wolves, watch grizzly bears and wolves confront each other. I think it is good to see nature in the raw. After a while, most people might come to see it for what it is — routine and expected.

  76. avatar Brian Ellway says:

    Ralph says:
    “I don’t hear conservationists advocating breaking the law. They file lawsuits, but then that is a civil liberty.

    There is a difference between trying to accomplish your objectives legally versus illegally.”

    And there in lies the problem. We are not being allowed to accomplish anything legally because the conservationists keep filing lawsuits to prevent it. And by “we” I am referring to concerned sportsmen and women, not the radical anti-wolf people like Gillette. All we want is for the wolves to be managed by the state under their management plan, not have them exterminated. I know most of the people here think that once the State is given management that all hell will break loose and every last wolf will be killed but I truly believe that the Idaho management plan will insure a more than healthy population of wolves that will far exceed the original numbers that were agreed to.

    Unfortunately, people are getting fed up with the lawsuits and are starting to feel hopeless and in many cases are feeling that taking matters into their own hands may be the only resolution. People like Ron Gillette who publically tout illegal killing of wolves are the minority. The majority of people who are going to take control of wolves into their own hands will never brag about it or even tell their wives or best friends.

  77. Brian Ellway,

    Are you interested in any wildlife other than deer and elk?

    It would be an important change if more people would help Idaho ‘Fish and Game resist the efforts of domestic sheep operators to pass legislation that will speed up the loss of Idaho’s bighorn sheep population.

  78. avatar kt says:

    You know, the wolf haters are so much like the cattle and sheep men in so many ways. Unmitigated greed.

    If the Sportsmen for Dead Predators and Big Antlers types had not relentlessly pressured IDFG to have high kill levels, for every sex of (and any hermaphrodites, transgender critters out there too) everything that has 4 legs, and to allow 5 or 6 separate seasons for bazookas, muzzleloaders, archery, from around Aug. 1 to Dec, 31 in all areas of the state, perhaps, just perhaps there would be more QUALITY hunting opportunities. But that is not what they are about. They feed on greed (the wolf got my elk), paranoia and HATE.

  79. avatar DB says:

    I’m sure there are people who think the state would do a fine job of managing wolves, too. But can you blame Defenders of Wildlife etal for feeling otherwise and having to seek court injucntion ? the state already sanctions wildlife services killing wolves with questionable provcation. The management plan call for big reductions. The legislature and governor are dominatedd by livestock interests. The Fish and Game commission is really a joke (worse even tha the state board of ed). The IDFG is running scared (you want to talk about violence and intimidation, ask Dave Parrish what it’s like to speak your mind in public). Sorry, but in this climate lawsuits seem pretty reasonable to me.

  80. avatar Brian Ellway says:

    Ralph Maughan Says:
    April 6, 2009 at 9:22 AM
    “Brian Ellway,

    Are you interested in any wildlife other than deer and elk?

    It would be an important change if more people would help Idaho ‘Fish and Game resist the efforts of domestic sheep operators to pass legislation that will speed up the loss of Idaho’s bighorn sheep population.”

    I am interested and care about all wildlife Ralph. This post is about wolves which means it is about elk and deer. And there is nothing I hate more than running into sheep or “mountain maggots” as I call them when I’m hunting. They leave an unbelievable path of destruction. I also believe in a balance of wildlife which unfortunately we cannot have without management of all wildlife including wolves.
    In response to kt, I am not opposed to some reductions in hunting opportunities and there has been a fairly drastic reduction in opportunity in this years regulations. I would much rather have quality than quantity. I am one of the ones that likes to get as far away from roads as possible when hunting. Many of my friends don’t like hunting with me because they think I’m crazy. I always want to see “whats over the next ridge”. I just think if the wolves are not controlled soon, it is heading in the direction of no hunting opportunities as I don’t believe the herds will be able to sustain hunting and predation for much longer.

  81. Brian,

    What is going to happen to the wolves if people leave them alone and there is no delisting, is that their population will stop growing (it has already slowed down, although Idaho Fish and Game pretends the population is still growing at 20%).

    The wolves will probably overshoot a bit as they did in Yellowstone, then the population will drop a fair amount. Then it will fluctuate.

    If there is no delisting and people shoot them illegally, then the population may decline a bit, but there will be more wolf dispersal to new areas as members of disrupted packs move.

    I still believe the real threat to wolves is Wildlife Services because they will kill entire packs and take a very healthy population of wolves and not just reduce the numbers, but reduce its genetic diversity.

    The political organization of the Idaho’s livestock industry is the real threat to wolves and really to all of Idaho’s fish and wildlife except perhaps deer.

  82. avatar Layton says:

    kt,

    “You know, the wolf haters are so much like the cattle and sheep men in so many ways. Unmitigated greed………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………. they are about. They feed on greed (the wolf got my elk), paranoia and HATE.”

    With all due respect, with the amount of hate that you exhibit on this blog, it’s hard to believe that there is any left for anyone to feed on!!!

  83. avatar Brian Ellway says:

    Ralph,

    I do understand the population will stabilize eventually but it’s my opinion that the wolf populations are already too high to sustain a “huntable” population of elk forever. And yes, I do care very much about keeping my hunting opportunities as it is a passion for me even though I have a very low success rate. If only wolves only ate sheep, I would be ok with that. lol

  84. avatar ChrisH says:

    Moreover, if a wolf pack is broken up by hunting or control methods, the individual wolves will ( at least in the short term) not be able to hunt as a group. Individual wolves or a pair of wolves would undoubtedly go for something easier to catch – like a cow, a calf or sheep. Instead of controlling a population, more chaos is the result.

  85. avatar Layton says:

    Just so no one makes a mistake here.

    As someone else posted up above — a LOT of us out here think Ron G. is out of his tree!!

    In most of the discussions I get into where his name comes up the people wish he would just shut up!!

    He is the red eyed radical that a lot of us wish would go away — about the only person that seems to have “drunk the kool aid” is the guy that calls himself “savelk” — he gets pot shot about as much as Gillett does. They don’t seem to think any more about the truth than some of the folks on the other side.

    Somewhere, somehow, some way there has to be some common ground. BUT as long as the lawsuits that deny any sort of control over the wolves continue — and as long as the “wolfies” continue to refuse to let even one wolf be killed, we’re at an impasse.

    The terms of the delisting have been met — long ago — and the original agreement doesn’t seem to mean much to the “for” side. As long as that continues there will be continuous problems.

    Problems?? More like all out war brewing!!!

  86. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    “canadian wolves are animals of mass destruction”

    Almost makes me wonder what he would have called them if the attack on America and invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq never happened.

    Good point John d. That kind of (dangerous) paranoia is spilling into our everyday speech, even with wildlife.

  87. Brian,

    I do think delisting is the best strategy, but not under the current plan, especially with Idaho’s political leadership where a small group of unrepresentative people who dislike wildlife, love cows, and don’t like urban Idahoans, lord it over us.

  88. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    Thanks for your information Gloria. You were brave for sticking through the meeting. I probably would have put my foot in my mouth. 🙂
    “Don’t you have any feeling for what is happening to our defenseless elk and deer? Your approach is ruthless and absolutely unconscionable“ just look at these pictures. This non-native wolf is literally inflicting genocide on our ungulate population.”

    I do wonder if elk and deer do prefer to be shot by hunters instead of being killed by wolves. If they are so defenseless then why is it that wolves sometimes suffer broken bones whey they try to take one down? Again, shouldn’t the deer and elk have gone extinct thousands of years ago if they were defenseless? Also, would it be morally right for people to shoot them if they were so defenseless? These people make some of the most transparent arguments.

  89. avatar jdubya says:

    Gloria said: “The group was selling photographs, tee shirts and bumper stickers all showing either just a dead elk carcass or a dead elk with wolves eating it and a lot of blood.””

    See Rainbow, I would have fit right in with my “bambi’s mom” t shirt and listening to “dueling banjos” on my ipod. I don’t know what your beef is about.

  90. avatar Linda Hunter says:

    Wow it takes a long time to read this whole post. I have always said if there is dog doo in the trail that doesn’t mean you have to step in it. There is NO way anyone is going to change the minds of people who are SO incredibly enthusiastic about there subject and their beliefs . . so any education efforts should just go around them. As a matter of fact, if someone is not open to debate or other ideas, don’t bother with them. And for radicals on both sides of the issues the best thing to do is ignore them. . don’t step on them and go around. In this case going around would be to put all that energy and thought into talking to people who are not dwelling on wolves eating animals alive with blood and guts and trying to foster hate. (as if trapping is more humane). There is a man in my town who drives around with a I kill coyotes bumper sticker. . I don’t think I will ever talk to him but I might put one on my car which says “You killed the coyotes, now who is going to kill the mice they used to eat?”

  91. avatar Gloria says:

    We have a local here, Mickey, who has some rather strange ways at times, but he just posted his solution, which I thought interesting:

    http://blog.sunvalleyonline.com/index.php/2009/03/28/harrasing-wolves-for-fun-and-profit/

    ProWolf in WY: I didn’t say a word; didn’t laugh, didn’t frown, didn’t move. I knew I was safe there, but am not as brave as Lynne S. and don’t want to be a local target.

  92. Mickey’s idea isn’t crazy.

    When I am lucky enough to see a wolf outside Yellowstone Park, after enjoying the experience, I always yell at it or fire a bullet over its head.

  93. avatar Jim says:

    I left Idaho in late 2000 and I just cannot believe that meetings like this still occur fifteen years into the recovery program. The same people saying the same things over and over and over. Wouldn’t people just get bored and stop after a while? Or actually have something else to do, like work or change careers? Not these people. I think the only real solution is for Idaho to lose its statehood, with parts of the state becoming national parks and the rest portioned out to neighboring states.

  94. I attended the Hailey meeting and was very excited when Ron Gillette said he was setting up a fund to defend anyone who would shoot a wolf. I hope he shows real leadership and shoots a wolf and admits it. I will donate a Canadian quarter every six months to try to keep Gillette out of jail.
    I was in Arizona and New Mexico earlier this year trying to locate some Mexican Wolves to photograph. There are a whole bunch of anti- wolf folks down in that part of the country too. They hold rallies and try to scare everyone with the same tales that were expressed in Hailey. They are trying to convince everyone that those horrible “Mexican Wolves” will eat all of the kids waiting for the school bus. They quote the same scare story about someone in the country of Georgia being killed by wolves. About the only thing different than here in Idaho, was that no one claimed the Mexican Wolves weigh 200 pounds.
    I will say it again. If you want wolves in Idaho you have to willing to go to Fish and Game meetings when wolves are being discussed and be brave enough to express your views. That includes meetings like the one in Hailey as well. Sounding tough on this website just doesn’t cut it. I speak out in all of the meetings I attend and I have never been threatened or assaulted. I have had some of the anti wolf people thank me for expressing my views.
    I tell the anti wolf folks privately that if they ever want to get the wolves delisted and out of court, they are going have get realistic and set some hunting regulations that pro wolf people can live with.
    We also have to find other ways to fund fish and game departments other than just by hunting and fishing licenses and taxes on guns and fishing equipment. There were a number of speakers in Hailey that threatened to boycott the fish and game department and refuse to buy hunting and fishing licenses. In general, the speakers at the meeting were just as mean to the IDFG director as they are to so-called “Wolf Lovers”. I would like to see the IDFG funded partially by general fund monies, a wolf license plate, and the name changed to Fish and Wildlife.

  95. Larry,

    You are certainly on the mark with these suggestions.

  96. avatar Gloria says:

    I just heard from a reliable source, that two headless coyotes are laying in the campground at the intersection of Hwy. 75 & 20. 🙁

  97. avatar Mike says:

    Gloria- That’s some very sick behavior.

    Eventually, you would think we would evolve beyond that sort of cruelty.

  98. avatar timz says:

    “I attended the Hailey meeting and was very excited when Ron Gillette said he was setting up a fund to defend anyone who would shoot a wolf.”

    Someone should ask him where all the supposed money he raised several years ago to pay lawyers and file his lawsuit went.

  99. avatar Craig says:

    “I attended the Hailey meeting and was very excited when Ron Gillette said he was setting up a fund to defend anyone who would shoot a wolf.”

    Wow what a deal! Lose your Hunting privledges for life, fines, prison sentence, and he’ll pay for someone to defend you and lose! If he hates Wolves as bad as says,why doesn’t he go out shoot them himself and use the fund forhimself and see where he gets.

  100. I was trying to be funny. I do hope that Gillette shoots a wolf and gets caught. He could use some jail time. I should have said I would be happy to send him Canadian quarters to buy KY jelly while he shares his cell with Bubba in Levenworth. After his rant about insurrection and calling for the breaking of federal laws protecting wolves, he is going to have a lot of law officers looking at everything he does. He didn’t win any friends in the IDFG by the way he treated them either. He is a very angry man and if there were not wolves to be angry about, he would find another reason to be mean to everyone he disagrees with.
    He is his own worst enemy. I was with my grandson in Bear Valley this summer, standing on the Bear Valley creek bridge and watching some salmon. There was a family from Virginia there and when I told them we had heard wolves howl that morning they told me about their experience in Stanley. They had rented cabins in Stanley and when they told the owner that they were going to Bear Valley to look for wolves they got a lecture about how horrible wolves were from the cabins’ owner. They said they would find another motel for the rest of their stay. You can guess who owned the cabins.

  101. avatar Save bears says:

    Actually I would love to run into Ron in person again, it has been several years since he and I were face to face, last time, he told me if he ever caught me alone he would kill me because I worked for FWP at that time and he said anyone that worked for an agency was against everything he and his friends stood for….

  102. avatar smalltownID says:

    thank you Larry, about time someone posted something that can help with the situation. You echoed Doug Smith’s words at the wildlife society meetings last month about what is needed to calm the troubled waters with wolves. Which is, we have to refrain from polarizing the issue, ranchers don’t care how many publications a scientist has or what statistical analyses he has done. You have to share (SHARE) your views in light of theirs (not attack them) if you want to educate. That goes for any demographic, it is basic human psychology.

    Hunters and wildlife advocates are key in this process. It can happen at meetings, discussions at the cafe and the gas station (where 95% of rural idealogy is harbored and shared I can promise you), and small talk around dinner with other hunters . Unfortunately, most of what is said on here only polarizes the issue even though I feel like the website’s effort is to provide a forum for wildlife regardless of source if accurate, consequently, even the moderators can get drug into the epidemic at times.

  103. avatar smalltownID says:

    The comments about making a difference were directed toward hunters that don’t harbor “Little red ridinghood” ideaology and may in fact spend time where some of these ideas are put forth.

  104. avatar timz says:

    “he is going to have a lot of law officers looking at everything he does. He didn’t win any friends in the IDFG by the way he treated them”

    Larry, I would not count on this unless it’s US F&W. I don’t think IDF&G has any interest in enforcing laws protecting wolves. I say that based on conversations I’ve had with several of them.

  105. avatar smalltownID says:

    CO’s? that is odd. I know over half of them in Southern Idaho. They have interest in doing their job. Matter of fact I know of three that have specificly told me to keep my eyes and ears open for anything fishy going on in the field since that is my office in spring and summer. If it isn’t a CO (Conservation officer) with the F&G, they shoudn’t have any interest in enforcing laws since that is not their job. Sometimes ppl forget how the F&G is organized.

  106. avatar Craig says:

    I run into the jerk every Thursday afternoon when I’m up in Garden Valley doing my sales calls. I run up and watch the Elk and Deer Wintering and every single time, here comes Ron hauling ass down the road riding my bumper fliping me off as he passes because I’m not doing 70 mph in a 40-50 mph zone. I wonder how many Elk and Deer he has hit driving like an Idiot through a winter range area?

  107. avatar smalltownID says:

    I can sympathize with that statement about directors. But the real work that goes on in the F&G are not by the directors. We have had this discussion b-4 about the view of F&G with directors as the paradigm vs. the people that do the work like the biolgists and CO’s.

    I can think of 1 of 10 CO’s I know that would second guess citing someone for poaching a wolf. And I still htink that person would do the right thing. I know ppl like to think that under the table assignments are made by Butch Otter that no one is to be punished for killing a wolf legal or not. Unfortunately, when folks like Parrish get demoted for doing their job it doesn’t help the conspiracy theories.

    But it bothers me when you say stuff like that Ralph about the F&G as a whole bc it is exactly the opposite of my expereince with those on the ground doing the work. I think ppl buy into that based on your opinion and I don’t think it is accurate in my opinion.

  108. avatar smalltownID says:

    take home message, hear of a poached wolf, DON”T CALL THE DIRECTOR, call your local conservation officer. They are afraid NOT to do their job. It is part of the ethics of a CO.

  109. avatar Craig says:

    So are the COs the guys and gals in the field checking hunting licenses and watching for poachers?

  110. avatar Brian Ertz says:

    I don’t believe the intention of the COs matter that much. If you’re in wolf country & illegally kill a wolf, how enforceable will any law against it be? Whether managers are sympatheic to Gillett or not, Idaho lawmakers have made it all but impossible to prosecute – it’s “he said, the poached wolf said” given all a person’s gotta do is claim the wolf looked at him, his stock, or his dog funny.

    The Idaho Good Ol’ Boys are of a certain mind – and have passed laws to such effect, even Butch Otter, among other well-known state politicians, donated to Gillett’s group before it was decided it’d be bad for the delisting prospect. That’s why it needs to be a federal crime, prosecuted by federal employees not subject to state political repercussion, to illegally kill a wolf.

    People think Gillett is fringe, look at the state laws and the impossibility of checking his intention that they’ve stacked – the hate that infects this man is codified as state law.

  111. Thanks smalltownID

    I do trust the COs. I like them and have one in the family in another state.

    It’s the leadership and the F&G Commission and the direct and indirect pressure from above, like elk farmer and sheep rancher, Senator Jeff Siddoway.

  112. avatar Gloria says:

    Smalltown – how about some phone numbers? If you would give us a list, it would make it a lot simpler to just be able to carry that list around with our cameras and recording devices!

  113. avatar smalltownID says:

    Brian, can’t say the law is not written in dubious fashion, but for now, if you want people to obey the law, you can’t question the efficacy of the law and in the same breath demand that people don’t break it. That is what we are dealing with for the time being. If prosecution fails to execute justice, what great evidence for litigation or other efforts to ensure justice in the management of wolves as you have advised? So far, the case in Ashton that was taken to the F&G was questionable as far as snowmobiling after them for a mile but it was pretty obvious they were a threat to his horses. I don’t disagree that the law would benefit from a shift from being so vague or turning it to the feds. I don’t have a law degree so maybe you could shed some light, what is the hold up from it being a federal crime other than politicians that want them eradicated?

    Gloria,

    Don’t know where you are located but here is the website for the numbers of whatever region you are in. Call the number for your region and ask for the contact information of a Conservation Officer (there will be more than one in each region). Otherwise, if you ever have information regarding poaching call the region and ask for a CO and they will get the job done.

    http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/about/offices/

  114. avatar Craig says:

    smalltownID Says:
    April 6, 2009 at 5:28 PM
    “take home message, hear of a poached wolf, DON”T CALL THE DIRECTOR, call your local conservation officer. They are afraid NOT to do their job. It is part of the ethics of a CO.”

    Within the last 5 years I’ve been checked in the field or back at camp after we harvested Elk. We also seen wolves while Hunting and reported our sightings to the F&G officers at the time and two times we were told we should have shot the wolves.
    Had a “CO” from Riggins also try and set me and my friends up on an Illeagal hunt on private property at a bar one night. He told us to bring camcorders because he had two huge Bucks in an Orchard we could shoot and the property owners were out of town. When he went to the bathroom the locals told us he was F&G. So we played along and when we left we had the deal set up and left by holding out our hand and saying see you in the morning F&G officer???? He just stood there mouth wide open and never said a word!
    I have no faith in the F&G from the crap I’ve personally encountered with them. I will say I have meet some that do a great job and do care! I reported a Bighorn kill with it’s head cut off in 37a and they got right on it and got back to me. But I’ve seen more bad than good!

  115. avatar JEFF E says:

    Folks may want to take a look at this. I am not the author.
    – – – – – –
    “the other end of the rainbow:
    Hailey Wolf Rally 4/4/09

    I would estimate 300-350 in attendance and the parking lot was full of cars. The meeting started at 6:00 pm and the caretakers had to turn out the lights at 11:00 pm – there simply was enough time for everyone who filled out a comment card to be heard. A lot of passion about this subject with 99.9 % of the residents saying something must be done right away to control and remove the wolves. Cal Groen indicated that the IDF&G is keenly aware of the urgency of this wolf issue. He said his department is capable of managing wolves just as they do all other game species. Along with Cal, their were other speakers including myself who commented. DOW declined to speak. All speakers commented on how this wolf introduction program has turned into a major debacle, and how unmanaged wolves are systematically destroying and eradicating our states ungulate and other wildlife. Their was much public comment – all of it was decidedly anti-wolf, “get them out of here” rhetoric voiced by everyone. There was comment after comment about people and livestock being harassed, threatened and attacked, and individuals witnessing elk being sport killed and slaughtered by wolves.

    What’s surprising about these decidedly anti-wolf testimonials is that this is by residents presumably right in the heart of the pro-wolf, DOW, John Marvell, Suzanne Stone territory. I fully expected that they would amass a major group of pro-wolf advocates supporting their position. Even the Mayor of Sun Valley spoke, and was quite impassioned and expressed his grave concerns about wolves, and the way the population has gotten totally out of hand in the Valley.

    He stood before the crowd pointing his finger at the pro-wolvers and occasionally at Cal Groen and other IDF&G personnel in attendance. He said that he came to the valley about 10 years ago from back East and at that time he was decidedly for animal rights, and was opposed to hunting and the killing animals. He since has changed and understands and appreciates the values of most Idahoans. He’s gotten a concealed weapons permit and now enjoys shooting and fishing, along with his many other outdoor pastimes. He says the Valley’s way of life is being threatened “to the core” by these wolves. He believes that this wolf situation has gotten entirely out of hand and something has to be done immediately. He believes the wolves have caused the natural order of things to turn “upside down”. Elk are being chased through the streets of town with wolves killing them within yards of buildings. He doesn’t feel safe in his own home as wolves often wander through his yard and he recently had a mountain line slaughtered by wolves within 100 yards from his home. That just isn’t right. Residents and visitors are afraid. Do they dare venture out from their safe surroundings? He is very concerned that someone is destined to soon get attacked by a wolf as they become increasingly domesticated. This domestication threatens visitors who come to Sun Valley from all over the country for its outdoor recreational opportunities. Visitors come to the resort to mountain bike, hike, ski, fish, etc, and if someone is attacked as he’s sure will happen, it’s going to be a major economic blow to the area. He believes it will be an immediate $100 million economic hit. He says he’s been authorized to speak on behalf of the Sun Valley Company and they too see this urgency and are demanding that something be done. They believe a single wolf attack will cost them millions and will result in visitors going elsewhere. They have to much invested to sit back and to let this happen. He said as mayor he is charged with the responsibility to look out for the local resident’s businesses and interests, and for the health and safety of all residents and visitors. He believes all affected parties are prepared to sue in the unfortunate event that someone in the Valley is attacked or killed by a wolf.

    Individual after individual got up and passionately told their horror stories and voiced their concerns about wolves. Suzanne “clap-clap” Stone, along with here pro-wolf followers were also there. However, throughout the night they “took so many arrows” that none of them had the nerve to comment or to attempt to justify their pro-wolf position to the crowd. Slowly, one by one they snuck out the back door without ever commenting.

    A few challenged the press to accurately report this rally and the sentiments of the residents. There was some press attending and we will see if they dare go against the PC establishment and accurately report the rally. There is no doubt that most residents from the Hailey area are absolutely feed up with this wolf debacle and are at their “wits-end”. I believe that this issue is far from over, as everyone I talked with is dedicated to keep up this fight until something positive is done, even if it means taking directly with the Governor.

    SaveElk.”

  116. avatar Jay says:

    Craig, sounds like you were being recruited to do some illegal hunting by an undercover officer. They do that stuff from time to time. Also, all you IDFG and CO bashers, don’t point your fingers at the officers that turn in a case for prosecution, direct your disdain for the local prosecuters that refuse to take the cases to court because it’s too politically “hot”. CO’s work hard for low pay, they are doing it for the resource–they aren’t the enemy.

  117. avatar Craig says:

    Probably, he showed us pics of all these animals (trophey) he shot and came up and talked to us for no reason! We knew from the get go something was wrong. Like I said, I have ran into good people and I always carry my CAP card on me to report anything I see.

  118. avatar timz says:

    Sounds like the hayseed mentality is alive and well in Sun Valley, who would of thought. You say the residents, when did Ron Gillette move there? Sounds like it was more of a whining, crybaby fest with a few lies thrown in to me.

  119. avatar timz says:

    After reading that speech again by the mayor it brought to mind the speech the mayor gave at the clan rally in the movie Mississippi Burning. Same tone, same type of nonesense.

  120. avatar kt says:

    TimZ:

    I found this:

    Seems the dead opposite.

    Is Willy Willich maybe a Dick Cheney level Control Freak and dominator?? Or made some bad ski country investments so is flipping out? OR was this all VERY Scripted? IF SO – By who? Is there any Farm Bureau or NRA Goon role in this, I do wonder? One thing seems clear to me – HATE PREDOMINATES.

    RECALL too that they imported Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife types and any gun nut that could be dredged up to the rally on the Idaho Statehouse steps where Butch Otter
    made his infamous statement. Remember there were all those neatly made up signs for photographers.

    Can some of the Wood River Valley folks provide insight into Das Mayor?

  121. avatar kt says:

    TIM Z: NEVER MIND – I believe what I found IS the dead opposite. I posted the Funeral speech. YOU were talking about a Clan speech? THAT does not seem to be coming up. Maybe someone else can find it?

  122. avatar timz says:

    I wonder had the cougar that was “slaughtered” near whomevers home had killed or injured someone would there had been a suit, or would the town have taken an immediate $100 million hit, with all the visitors going elsewhere. Don’t these people realize how foolish they sound?

    kt, it was the same speech, just substitute wolf for the ‘N’ word (which is what they used in the movie) “They’re coming to take our children, our livelihooods, ruining are way of life, we have to take the law into our own hands. ” Trumped up hysteria by a bunch of woeful hate mongers.

    Gillette and his ilk have never advocated management, just extermination. Almost every major politician in this state belonged to his organization at one time. You don’t belong to a group if you don’t support the message. There is no educating those who can’t or won’t be educated, dealing with them is a waste of time. Groen and Hansen should be immediately removed from their positions for attending.
    All we can do is keep beating them down in the courts until they bring something realistic to the table. Maybe after a couple more defeats in court the new administration will step in and really try to work out delisting with sound management.

  123. I was not impressed with the Mayor of Sun Valley. I traveled to Churchill, Manitoba a couple of years ago to photograph Polar Bears. Churchill is booming because they have embraced the Polr Bears and have turned a very dangerous animal into an incredible attraction. Instead of the Mayor crying for the Polar Bears to be removed, all of the houses are posted with signs that tell you the doors are unlocked and that if you encounter a Polar Bear while walking downtown just go to the nearest house and come in and close the door. The Polar bear crew will show up to dart the bear and take him to jail. The Polar Bear Jail had 24 inmates when I was there. When Hudson Bay freezes, the bears are released to go out and hunt seals.
    Polar bear viewing is so popular, that you need reservations almost a year in advance to stay in Churchill.
    People come from all over the world to see the bears. I rode the tundra buggies 3 times and saw a total of 36 bears. It was one of the best things I have ever done. People come from all over the world to see the wolves in Yellowstone. Properly advertised, the Phantom Hill Pack would draw huge crowds . If the mayor was really concerned about the economic health of Sun Valley he would promote the wolves as a tourist attraction rather than crying for their removal. He struck me as a real wuss.

  124. Some people move to Idaho and are sensitive to their status as outsiders. They try to compensate by spouting the most obnoxious sentiment of some of the residents.

    It’s kind of like the young guy who decides to prove he’s a real man by quickly downing six shots of Wild Turkey. It really impresses the bar regulars.

  125. avatar Tom Page says:

    Jeff-

    You must hang out with different folks than I do in Hailey…most people I know could care less about the wolf issue one way or another. Those that do, in my experience, tend to support state management, are not opposed to a hunting season, yet enjoy knowing they are out there. The kind of stuff attributed to the SV mayor hasn’t been echoed by any of the other politicians, to my knowledge. Also if Willich thinks that this issue will affect SV visitors, he is delusional. A quality hotel or two, along with a major airport upgrade and a fourlane from Boise would increase visitation real quick.

    The real wolf issue in Blaine County is the elk feedgrounds sitting right in the subdivisions up and down the valley – ask anyone who spends any time in the woods at all.

  126. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    If the mayor was really concerned about the economic health of Sun Valley he would promote the wolves as a tourist attraction rather than crying for their removal. He struck me as a real wuss.

    You make a great point Larry. He could advertise the town as an alternative to going to Yellowstone to see wolves. Something people from states like Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Nevada would probably make the trip. It could be something like Churchill. If they can make a tourist industry out of an animal known to be dangerous surely Idaho could make one out of an animal that has attacked less people than the “defenseless” elk and moose that have attacked more people.

  127. avatar Matt Douthit says:

    Half the stuff I read on this site about the wolf meeting in Hailey is lies. Now I know why you people hide your names. I represent Deer Hunters of Idaho. The meeting didn’t go the exact way I was hoping for, but a least guys like Cal Groen, Larry Thorgren, Billy Ward,and the mayor of Sun Valley have the balls to show up and express there concerns. We were prepared to hear everybody’s views. To bad most of you are cowards. I’m not anti wolf or pro wolf I want to see management of wolves by the sportsmen.

  128. avatar JEFF E says:

    Tom Page,
    I don’t know if you ere addressing me or not but My last post was a quote by the organization named at the bottom of that post.
    I knew I should have put quotation marks around it as soon as I hit the submit button.
    My kingdom for a preview option.

  129. I tried to fix it, Jeff. I hope it is clear now.

    Where did you find it?

  130. avatar Tom Page says:

    Matt D. –

    The deer hunting in the Magic Valley is terrible, as I suspect you’ll agree. I think most people that care about this took the time to show up at the IDFG open house a few weeks ago where we could speak to FG officers and staff in a relaxed atmosphere (no law enforcement presence) on a one-to-one basis. Most of the discussion there centered on the horrific winter of 07-08 for the deer, the overwhelming number of deer hunters coming into Unit 49, the poor habitat in the Magic Valley, and the lack of mature bucks because of this. There was also discussion about the wolf season, although deer and elk issues predominated when I was listening in. As I recall, since that time, wolf seasons have been set in the Magic Valley under the direction of IDFG, an agency that (in theory at least) is acting in the best interests of hunters and anglers, so I think that your wish to have “management of wolves by the sportsmen” is what this will be all about.

    As a fellow hunter, I don’t know if your wish is really fair to everyone, but that’s the direction we’re heading nonetheless. I do think it’s disappointing that more hunters have not spoken out against the ridiculously low tag fees, as well as the potential for wolves to find themselves back under fed management thanks to the extremely aggressive wolf kill target that IDFG has authorized for 09 and beyond. We need to heed the lessons learned in Wyoming of the past year.

    Based on ten years of work and attendance at countless public meetings, I think almost all of them are nothing more than a dog and pony show. I know Larry disagrees with me, and you probably do too. Just because I don’t show up and rant for three minutes doesn’t mean I don’t care.

    Tom Page
    (my real name)

  131. avatar JB says:

    “To bad most of you are cowards.”

    Actually, many of us (most, perhaps?) live too far away to have a voice at your meetings (in my case, Ohio). Still, we feel we have a vested interest in how our (i.e. Federal) public lands are managed. Regardless, the hysteria expressed in response to this particular post is unfortunate; I don’t believe it is representative of most of the discussion that goes on here.

    “I’m not anti wolf or pro wolf I want to see management of wolves by the sportsmen.”

    People who post here have many views. Personally, I think the populations have recovered to the extent that they can be delisted. Unfortunately, the most recent final rule delisting wolves probably won’t hold up in court.

    Just a suggestion: If you truly want wolves to be removed from the endangered species list, you might best be served by staying quiet; shouting about how Idaho is good and ready to “manage” wolves with signs proclaiming “wolf alert” only make you seem fanatical. 😉

  132. avatar JEFF E says:

    Matt Douthit you have said that half of the things posted about the meeting in question on this thread are lies. Could you be more specific please. I am curious.
    Also as the organizer you probably have the most accurate count of attendance. So how many really showed up?

  133. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    I agree that all of us have the right to voice opinions on federal land. Obviously, as my screen name states, I could not attend the meeting.

    Just a suggestion: If you truly want wolves to be removed from the endangered species list, you might best be served by staying quiet; shouting about how Idaho is good and ready to “manage” wolves with signs proclaiming “wolf alert” only make you seem fanatical. 😉

    JB, that is probably one of the most intelligent things I have seen posted on any of these blogs.

  134. avatar Lynne Stone says:

    First off – I apologize for the length of this posting, but I am taking off on a family trip today, and wanted to write this before I left.

    Regarding the posting from bowsite that Jeff put up for us to read. For starters, whoever wrote the piece, is so misinformed that he doesn’t know that Suzanne Stone, Defenders of Wildlife, lives in Boise, and was not in attendance at the meeting. The spelling of Western Watersheds Project’s well-known grazing activist Jon Marvel, is not Marvell.

    I went to the meeting to hear Matt Douthitt and Billy Ward, self-proclaimed predator killers of the “Big Wood Valley” (as Ward calls the Big Wood River Valley), and to record Ron Gillett’s latest rant (you could hear two minutes of it earlier on this thread).

    Because of threats made to wolf supporters before the meeting, both the Blaine County Sheriff and Hailey Police were contacted, plus IDFG sent two armed Conservation Officers. Only when assured of police presence did I decide to attend. I asked a few wolf supporters to accompany me, saying that we’d stay about an hour, long enough to hear the organizers and Gillett. Then we’d leave, and so we did. Most of my friends said they’d rather have their wisdom teeth pulled than sit through a Ron Gillett rant. Besides, it was the College NCAA Final Four basketball games that evening.

    As for how many people attended, it was over 100 but less than 150. As a 28-year resident of Central Idaho, I was disappointed to see a mostly-male crowd of Blaine County residents clap and cheer for Ron Gillett as Gillett advocated breaking the law, and told lie after lie about the Phantom Hill wolves and wolves in general. It was especially interesting to hear Gillett make up his version of the mountain lion kill near Elkhorn. I was the one that found that lion and reported it to authorities. The elk carcass that the lion was nosing around had been dead for weeks, and was not a wolf kill. I saw the ten Phantom Hill wolves on the hillside above where they killed the mountain lion, and saw them return to the area that night. Next time I find a dead mountain lion, I’ll drag the carcass into the sagebrush and avoid giving the rednecks something to get excited about.

    Another lie told at the meeting was that when the IDFG brought in a helicopter to haze the Phantom Pack and also radio collar one, that the chopper pushed elk into chest deep snow, and then the wolves attacked the elk. Baloney. I watched the hazing from Elkhorn and it was on a high ridgetop above Prospector-Keystone Ridge, a mile from any elk.

    For those not familiar with the Big Wood River Valley, it’s home to at least 3600 wintering elk. Some people feed the elk right next to subdivisions. Elk sleep in people’s yards. The elk were doing this before wolves were reintroduced in ’95 and ’96 because much of the valley’s homes are in prime elk winter range. The wolves have discovered these tame elk and there will always be wolves around this valley now. There are three packs, not six or seven. Only the Phantoms have been close in. People can be educated on living with wolves as they live with mountain lions, black bears, and in S County, rattle snakes. Ron Gillett shouted at IDFG for not killing all ten Phantom Hill wolves now.

    As for the weight of the wolves, it’s estimated that the Phantom alpha male might go 85 lbs to 90 lbs. The biggest wolf of the ten Phantoms, is the two-year old wolf known as “Shadow”, a beautiful animal. He might weigh 100 lbs. Six of the Phantoms are subadults, who will be a year old in about a week. The other two members are the alpha female who has a crippled front foot, and her 3-year old daughter, “Judith”, who is B326. This is a magnificent pack of black wolves and hundreds of people in Sun Valley and Elkhorn got to watch them in March. My conservation group, Boulder-White Clouds Council, set up two spotting scopes and let the public view the wolves.

    I also witnessed both cracker-shelling episodes done by Biologist Michael Lucid in the EFK Big Wood, and by Sun Valley Police Officer Connie Burrell up Trail Creek. No elk were scared by this, but the wolves ran like hell.

    The organizers and speakers at the anti-wolf rally over and over said that the wolves in Idaho are “Canadian” and different than the wolves that were originally here. That’s simply not true as had been stated on this blog many times before. It’s like saying Canadians are a different species of the human race and weigh 100 to 200 lbs more than people in Idaho.

    For photos and information about Central Idaho wolves like the Phantoms, Galena and Basin Butte Packs, go to http://www.wildwhiteclouds.org

    Lynne Stone, Director
    Boulder-White Clouds Council
    Ketchum and Stanley Idaho

    P.S. For the rednecks and anti-wolfers reading this thread who keep telling me that I’ve never seen a wolf and spend no time in the outdoors, check out http://www.wildwhiteclouds.org. Also, FYI – I grew up on a large wheat ranch in Eastern Oregon in a gun-nut family, and our favorite pasttime was hunting. I own firearms and like the Sun Valley Mayor, have a concealed weapons permit. I was assaulted by Ron Gillett in the city limits of Stanley last March, when he almost broke my wrist, and he was arrested and hauled to jail in Challis. A Custer County Jury — three members who said outright they did not like wolves — reached a hung jury verdict, which I considered a win for me. I consider Ron Gillett a dangerous man.

  135. avatar Matt Douthit says:

    For Jeff E.
    I don’t have the time to respond to all the quotes people made, but in Lynn Stones first response the lies were as follows. 1st I did not proclaim myself a predator killer. 2nd there’s not 3600 elk wintering in the Wood River Valley.3rd Ron Gillet was not the featured speaker. 4th I did not relate any false statements. All the statements I made are recorded on video. And the quote of a minimum elk being killed by the phantom hill pack of 21 in March came from IDFG. We did not keep exact count on guest, but It was close to 150.

  136. avatar Ken Cole says:

    Matt,
    Why did you not allow recording devices?

  137. avatar timz says:

    Who really cares what was said by whom, how many people were there, who was the featured speaker, blah, blah. It sounds to me it was just a bitch session by mostly a bunch of whiny hunters that accomplished obsolutely nothing. Until local and state governments tone down their rhetoric and hostility to wolves there will be no choice but to leave it to the courts.

  138. avatar Gloria says:

    If recording devices and cameras that are normally allowed at public meetings, there wouldn’t have been any disputes over attendance or who said what.

  139. avatar timz says:

    Ken & GLoria,
    You don’t have enough pocket space to pack heat and ammo plus a recording device.

  140. avatar Gloria says:

    timz – You apparently have me mixed up with someone else; I’m not at all sure what you’re talking about, but I don’t “pack” any of the above that you mention, nor do I hunt, but I have friends that do hunt and I have nothing against legal hunting. Please get your facts straight before making any accusations or statements.

  141. avatar Ken Cole says:

    Gloria, he was joking.

  142. avatar Gloria says:

    Good, thanks! He obviously ruffled my fur a bit. 🙂

  143. avatar timz says:

    Ken is right. Sorry Gloria, didn’t mean to offend. It was a tongue-in-cheek comment.

  144. avatar wayne says:

    I was at the meeting and this was the first time I have ever seen Gillette, what a bag of wind. I have never met anyone so full of s@*t in my life. I spoke with a one of the guys from Idaho Deer Hunters and he told me after watching Gillette for 5 minutes, they were regretting bringing him here to speak. He bad mouthed Suzanne publicly. She held tough and did not respond. I spoke with one of the Hailey police officers and he told me he was there because of Gillette and his short temper. Gillette made a comment about how he was losing business, because no body wanted to come to his hotel and deal with the wolves. I personally think they don’t want to come because of his “sparkling” personality. Course any man who would attack a woman isn’t much of man in my opinion

  145. avatar JEFF E says:

    Matt Douthit Thank you for your response. the number attending you cite matches a independent estimate(100 to 150 and over 100 respectively) and is probably the most accurate(somewhere between 100-150). As you have singled out Lynn Stone for your example of lies being told and as she has posted just prior to you I wonder, if you have time, could you make a point by point refutation of what Lynn posted?
    also here is a direct quote from a media source that was in attendance;”….Conservationists’ attempts to film the meeting were quickly rebuffed by organizers. …..” I have to ask why? If your concern was biased editing could you not have also filmed and then refuted any inaccurate information backed up by video evidence?

  146. avatar Rose says:

    They did film it, they just wouldn’t let anybody else. Look at the flyer above, it clearly says ‘a public forum’.
    After people had set up recording equipment, they were told to take it down- in an ‘unfriendly’ way.

    I was intimidated at and by the presentations and people at the meeting and left early – others were threatened after the meeting – it’s real.

    The fact that the public officials were tolerant and participated in such a hostile, reactionary meeting makes me worry even more about Idaho wolves and quite frankly, the people who value them.

  147. avatar Greg says:

    I was at the entire meeting, their were Fish and Game officers and Hailey police there until everyone was gone…By the time the lights were out, their were less than fifty people still there and no one threatened or intimidated anyone..Had they done so, I myself would have pressed charges against them..We did not want any goats among us..being arse’s to anyone..

    I do not believe Rose, I did not see any of this type of nonsense, and once again would not tolerate it.. I’ve known these people who were at this event for decades, if they are what you claim they are where are the arrest records..lets dig up their “criminal history” because the kind of people you guys are describing here would have one..

    Call the Hailey police, and those several Idaho Fish and Game Officers, including those officers under cover at this event who I personally talked to and know.. There were plains clothes reserve officers present.. There flat out were no threats and intimidation at all, and frankly I went to hear both sides, and in fact one person did speak in support of your side of this issue and he didn’t get a boo one…

    I did laugh privately at Stone and her antics, as well some of the over weight hunters amused me also.. But I do agree we need something to change.. I suppose all of us could change our attitudes a bit, find common ground, obviously several people on both sides do not want that to happen..

    I say to you hunting wolves on foot with a rifle is a joke, you all should back off and let them do it.. The human on foot with a rifle can not compete with the wolves..They will not even put a dent in them..Those Wyoming fools were lucky because they used snow mobiles, I know I was there watching it…

    Ralph, you delete the wrong people, all the time, that’s why you don’t get any honest debates..You support this name calling and demonizing others of a different perspective and Ralph, WE ALL SEE YOU DOING IT…Every body see’s it professor.. Stop with the label’s Ralph, then maybe common ground can be found…

    One vehicle had those ignorant stickers on it, I saw only one, and this does not constitute tossing us all into that label…Knock it off.. You people are crapping on people who almost agree with you, at least in part.. I believe F.W.S should remove the wolves from Towns…NOW. I personally do not care how they do it..

    There’s that delete button Ralph you better hit it…Truth sucks and your not it..neither are they..

  148. avatar TM says:

    To set the record straight – this is my actual slummary of the meeting – if anyone that was in attendence has a differing view let me know.
    Thanks,
    Tony Mayer SaveElk.com
    _______________________________________________

    Recap of the Hailey Wolf Rally 4/4/09

    I would estimate 200-250 in attendance and the parking lot was full of cars. The meeting was organized by Bill Ward. private resident of Bellevue and Matt Douthit president of Deer hunters of Idaho. The meeting started at 6:00 pm with speakers including Bill Ward, Matt Douthitt, Cal Groen of the IDF&G, Ron Gillette of Stanley, Tim Kemery- former trapper and rancher from Challis, Dave Burke- Outfitter and rancher from Ashton, and Tony Mayer of Twin Falls representing SaveElk.com. Lynne Stone of DOW declined to speak. Additional presenters were asked to complete comment cards and allowed to speak after the main presenters. The meeting ended at around 10:30 – 11:00 pm when the building caretakers had to turn out the lights; there simply was enough time for everyone who filled out a comment card to be heard. A lot of passion about this subject with 99.9 % of the residents saying something must be done right away to control and remove the wolves. Cal Groen indicated that the IDF&G is keenly aware of the urgency of this wolf issue. He said his department is capable of managing wolves just as they do all other game species. All speakers commented on how this wolf introduction program has turned into a major debacle, and how unmanaged wolves are systematically destroying and eradicating our states ungulate and other wildlife. There was much public comment – all of it was decidedly anti-wolf, “get them out of here” rhetoric voiced by everyone. There was comment after comment about people and livestock being harassed, threatened and attacked, and individuals witnessing elk being sport killed and slaughtered by wolves.

    What’s surprising about these decidedly anti-wolf testimonials is that this is by residents presumably right in the heart of the pro-wolf, DOW, John Marvell, Lynne Stone territory. I fully expected that they would amass a large group of pro-wolf advocates supporting their position. However none surfaced. Even the Mayor of Sun Valley, Wayne Willich, spoke and gave an impassioned talk expressing his grave concerns about wolves, and the way the population has exploded in the Valley and gotten totally out of hand.

    Mr. Willich stood before the crowd pointing his finger at Cal Groen IDF&G Director and Jerome Parish MV Regional Supervisor. . He said that he came to the valley about 10 years ago from back East and at that time he was decidedly for animal rights, and was opposed to hunting and the killing animals. He since has changed and understands and appreciates the values of most of the Valleys residents. He’s obtained a concealed weapons permit and now enjoys shooting and fishing, along with his many other outdoor pastimes. He says the Valley’s way of life is being threatened “to the core” by these wolves. He believes that this wolf situation has gotten entirely out of hand and something has to be done immediately. He believes the wolves have caused the natural order of things to turn “upside down”. Elk are being chased through the streets of town with wolves killing them within yards of buildings. He doesn’t feel safe in his own home as wolves often wander through his yard and he recently had a mountain line slaughtered by wolves within 100 yards from his home. That just isn’t right. Residents and visitors are afraid. Do they dare venture out from their safe surroundings? He is very concerned that someone is destined to soon get attacked by a wolf as they become increasingly domesticated. This domestication threatens visitors who come to Sun Valley from all over the country for its outdoor recreational opportunities. Visitors come to the resort to mountain bike, hike, ski, fish, etc, and if someone is attacked as he’s sure will happen, it’s going to be a major economic blow to the area. He believes it will be an immediate significant negative economic hit. He says he also speaks on behalf of the Sun Valley Company, and they too see this urgency and are demanding that something be done. They believe a single wolf attack will cost them millions and will result in visitors going elsewhere. They have to much invested to sit back and to let this happen. He said as mayor he is charged with the responsibility to look out for the local resident’s businesses and interests, and for the health and safety of all residents and visitors. He believes all affected parties are prepared to sue in the unfortunate event that someone in the Valley is attacked or killed by a wolf.

    Individual after individual got up and passionately told their horror stories and voiced their concerns about wolves. Lynn Stone, along with here pro-wolf followers were also there. However, throughout the night they took so many “arrows” that none of them had the nerve to comment or to attempt to justify their pro-wolf position to the crowd. Slowly, one by one they snuck out the back door without ever commenting.

    A few challenged the press to accurately report this rally and the sentiments of the residents. There was some press attending and we will see if they dare go against the PC establishment and accurately report the rally.

    There is no doubt that most residents from the Hailey area are absolutely feed up with this wolf debacle and are at their “wits-end”. I believe that this issue is far from over, as everyone I talked with is dedicated to keep up this fight until something positive is done, even if it means taking this issue directly to the Governor.

    Tony Mayer
    SaveElk.com

  149. Tony Mayer,

    If you read back through the comments above the summary you just posted, you’ll find that a lot of your summary has already been disputed, beginning with Brian Ertz who commented during the meeting, from the meeting, that he had been told to turn his video camera off.

    Folks have already commented on remarks of the Sun Valley mayor.

    The issue has already been taken to governor. The speech Butch Otter made when he took office is a major reason why there are lawsuits against delisting. He scared the hell out of wolf supporters who might have been leaning to support delisting.

  150. avatar Save bears says:

    I think one of the major things that could foster a positive attitude on this issue when a public rally is held, is to NOT allow the radical element of either side to talk, there is no reason Ron should ever have a pubic forum to spew his rhetorical and outlandish claims to again, I also believe there are those on the pro side that do it as well with the name calling and derogatory comments, there are a few on this site that fit this category..

    There is an issue here that needs to be resolved period and only calm and cool heads will resolve it, I think the propaganda on both sides has got way out of hand..

    I speak from first hand experience, my life has been threatened more than once while I was in the field working on matters that didn’t even concern wolves, but still was threatened because I worked for an agency…

    It is time for the parties to come together instead of the continued attack on each other, wolves are here to stay, elk are here to stay as are deer, now how does everything work together, I don’t have the answers, but I do believe it is out there and will be found as soon as the BS stops that we have all experienced for the last 20 years!

  151. avatar Gloria says:

    First, I would like to point out that neither Greg nor Tony’s remarks were deleted. Although I don’t believe that all the statements in them are completely accurate, I do not find either of them offensive. And I do believe that this is what we need to do – to sit down calmly and have discussions where everyone gets to explain their opinions and views, without name calling or making verbal attacks on anyone that doesn’t agree with us. We all need to understand how and why others think as they do. When that happens, then we would be able to start discussing viable solutions. I feel that if the snowmobilers and skiers were able to work out an agreement, anyone can!

  152. avatar TM says:

    Ralph,

    For the record the above post was not made by me- so I wanted to post the recap as we saw it. I have read the above remarks and responses. One thing that rings clear is that it appears that all individuals supportive of management are vilified by the pro-wolf crowd, as is anyone supportive of wolf delisting and management to be vilified by the pro-delisting crowd. Both sides are polarized and opinions appear mostly to remain at extremes. Ron Gillette is very passionate about this subject. His record and deep seeded beliefs are well known. Governor Otter also has been chastised by many for his statement that he wanted to buy the first license to hunt wolves once they became delisted. Sometimes in the heat of the moment people say things that may not be reflective of their actual position. Or maybe these same individuals are not as polarized as they sometimes appear.

    I believe we are at a crossroads with this delisting issue. It’s a “powder Keg” waiting on the sidelines about to explode at any time. I would hope that this doesn’t happen and that rational minds will prevail on this issue.

    As I understand the position previously espoused by DOW and wolf advocate groups, is that the final delisting decision must be based on the principles of “Sound Science.” With this in mind, this latest delisting pronouncement has been reviewed by the Obama administration and the new interior secretary Salazar, and they have determined that the facts upon which it was based are sound and that the delisting of wolves is warranted.

    Why is it that so many pro-wolf advocates and groups disagree with this sound management approach and continue to challenge the delisting decision, and continue to call for endless lawsuits intended to overturn it? The very USFWS Biologists who were initially instrumental in the wolf re-introduction are all unanimously supporting the need for wolf delisting.

    It is time to acknowledge that wolves are recovered, and it is time for delisting to stand and for them to be managed. I for one am willing to accept wolves as a game animal in Idaho and their continued managed presence in our Idaho wilderness. The time has come for delisting to prevail, and for the IDF&G to be allowed to manage and protect wolves as any other game animal in our state.

    Tony

  153. avatar Save bears says:

    Tm,

    Ron is not passionate, he is obsessed on this subject, he does not like the fact that wolves are again in Idaho, period end of story, and there is no compromise he thinks..Ron should not be given anymore public time….when it comes to wolves everybody knows Ron’s position…I am still trying to figure out where the “Canadian Wolves” came from? That is not sound science, it is pure rhetoric…..

    He has no place in the current discussions on this issue, he is the same type of settler that felt the Native Americans had no place..he has no common sense and only has hate…

    But I will add, I am FOR wolf delisting, I think it is time for the states to manage the wolves…

  154. avatar Save bears says:

    Tm,

    Forgot to add, I agree, we are sitting on a powder keg, I have felt this for several years now..

  155. avatar JB says:

    “Why is it that so many pro-wolf advocates and groups disagree with this sound management approach and continue to challenge the delisting decision, and continue to call for endless lawsuits intended to overturn it? The very USFWS Biologists who were initially instrumental in the wolf re-introduction are all unanimously supporting the need for wolf delisting.”

    TM – The latest final rule to delist wolves is fundamentally flawed, as it relies upon an interpretation of the endangered species act that was “designed” by the previous solicitor for the department of interior to limit protections under the act. Note: This interpretation could have profound negative impacts for numerous imperiled species. Letting it stand is out of the question.

    Just to be clear, many of us don’t have a problem with delisting wolves–we just want to see it done in accordance with the letter and intent of the law. This clearly isn’t being done and I fully expect the challenges to delisting to be successful. If that ruffles the feathers of a few blow hards in ID, WY, and MT, well that’s the price we pay for ensuring the protection of numerous species who need it more than wolves.

    “I believe we are at a crossroads with this delisting issue. It’s a “powder Keg” waiting on the sidelines about to explode at any time.”

    As Brian has noted several times, this type of statement is a thinly-veiled threat, designed to intimidate. Frankly, I believe it has the opposite effect. Moreover, making good on these threats would only ensure wolves stay on the ESA well into the future, and would likely lead to lots of costly enforcement actions against people who take matters into their own hands. As I suggested above, if you truly want wolves to be removed from the endangered species list, you would best be served by staying quiet.

  156. avatar Brian Ertz says:

    First, let’s be really clear. “Stakeholders” were asked to partcipate in meetings where IDFG developed their management plan. Representatives of Defenders & ICL, as well as Livestock & Sportsmen interests attended. People did sit at the table, voice their opinions, and converse.

    Perhaps folk who honestly believe that we all just need to sit down would like to ask Defenders or ICL -two groups celebrated for their “collaborative” temperament – how that worked out. Do it – make the phone call, or better yet, if any from those willing groups would like to chime in and describe the results – have at it.

    Second, let’s take a moment to reflect on this preconcieved notion that there is a magical spectrum whereby “radicals/extremists” exist on both ends, and whereby as a consequence of some generalized idea about where certain folks’ values & willingness to express those values places them too far to either “side” of that contrived spectrum, suddenly we don’t have to consider their thoughts or values – or the merit of their conviction and held values. I disagree with anti-wolf sentiment, but I’d never discount it for being too “extreme”, the lack of merit in theirfalse claims that fuels their conviction is enough to do that. Is it honest, wise, or constructive to believe that somehow an idea’s position in the “middle” of this make-believe spectrum grants it more legitimacy than its merit ? Does my value of wolves, my recognition of the reality of my experience – that sitting down with this mindset and political situation is a waste of time if what I want is for my and my children’s value for wolves/wildlife be granted a better opportunity at proportional voice & representation when it comes to management of public lands & public wildlife – does this resolve and realization make what I value & what I say less legitimate ? – Even and especially as my conviction and passion undoubtably place me on the teetering edge of whatever scale of “extremism” folk could project to avoid and ignore the substance of my voice & effort ?

    It seems to me that this ideologacl “spectrum” is a great PC way to avoid the realities of the situation, to substitute lack of experience, knowledge, or merit for a level of self-comfort that will bring no forward momentum to a reasonable alternative which might secure my children’s proportional voice concerning wildlife & wild place “management”.

    Call an idea out for its truth or lack thereof.

  157. avatar TM says:

    JB
    Are you saying Sound Science was not used in the decision?

    The powder keg statement was not intended to be a veiled threat – it’s simply stating the reality of the situation. Again, hopefully cooler heads will prevail.

    Also, can you clarify your statement “The latest final rule to delist wolves is fundamentally flawed, as it relies upon an interpretation of the endangered species act that was “designed” by the previous solicitor for the department of interior to limit protections under the act? Note: This interpretation could have profound negative impacts for numerous imperiled species. Letting it stand is out of the question. ”

    Tony

  158. avatar Save bears says:

    One of your key statements Brian is “What I want” it is very telling..

  159. avatar Ryan says:

    Brian,

    What did Defenders and ICL ask for?

  160. avatar Ken Cole says:

    I was not at the meeting and I’m not going to jump into this discussion other than to point out that TM is Tony Mayer, who’s name is associated with the ridiculous website http://www.saveelk.com/

    There are so many outrageous claims made on this website that would lead people to believe that wolves are a product of the devil himself.

    My favorite is the wolf estimated to be 150 lbs (originally it said 200lbs) or this gem:
    “We are NOT saying Kill all the wolves. We ARE saying that the introduction of this non-native, hybrid Canadian Gray Wolf into the West WITHOUT A PLAN was a VERY BIG MISTAKE. It’s quite incredible how the Wolf Pundents keep saying, “The wolf is native to this country and it has a right to be here.” That is true, but NOT THIS WOLF. The Timber Wolf was native to this land but this Canadian Gray has already wiped them out, and if nothing is done they will wipe out everything else.”

  161. avatar jerry b says:

    Amazing that all this rhetoric is thrown around and not one word about the science involved in wolf management. Why not take some time to question and communicate with the people who understand wolf ecology and the interrelationships of wolves and other carnivores within an ecosystem? Granted, most of what you’ll get will be “off the record” because it’s not what the agencies want you to hear , but it may just educate and enlighten some.
    I can almost guarantee, for instance, that you’ll hear a common complaint from biologists about state management plans, and that will be, that NO studies are done on what the affect of removing packs will have on the the remaining biodiversity of that particular watershed or ecosystem. For instance the affect on riparian areas and the wildlife that inhabit them including song birds, raptors, beaver, otter, mink,and all the meso-predators True, you may end up with more elk and deer, but less suitable habitat available, for beaver to manage and conserve water, provide fire breaks, and less habitat for fish and amphibians
    It’s the “trophic cascade” affect and MOST biologists familiar with management of large carnivores are familiar enough with it to question why studies aren’t done, both prior to removing top predators and studies post-removal.
    Save Bears….sounds like you have expertise in this area. What do you think??

  162. avatar Ken Cole says:

    Frankly, if what their website says was true I would be afraid to step out of my car in wolf country but it is not true. The website preys on the ignorance of people and uses myth to generate hysteria.

  163. avatar Save bears says:

    As I said, where did the term “Canadian Wolf” come from, it is as if some invisible line was drawn in the sand! The wolves that inhabit Canada are the same wolves that we have(had) in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming as well as the Eastern and all of the Northern States, proven, peer reviewed scientific evidence exists…

  164. avatar TM says:

    Ken, I’m not trying to hide from anyone. Also, I have not authored many of the statements on this site, but I believe you will generally find a factual basis for everything on the Website. Most all of us have been driven to the extreme on this issue in an attempt to make our points.

    Regardless, the reality is that wolves are here and most believe they are here to stay.

    As I previously stated “It is time to acknowledge that wolves are recovered, and it is time for delisting to stand and for them to be managed. I for one am willing to accept wolves as a game animal in Idaho and their continued managed presence in our Idaho wilderness. The time has come for delisting to prevail, and for the IDF&G to be allowed to manage and protect wolves as any other game animal in our state.”

  165. avatar Ken Cole says:

    Here is a page from their site that sets up a bunch of straw men. They address claims, that nobody who knows anything about wolves has made, and tear them down.

    http://www.saveelk.com/wolf_004.htm

    I, frankly, as a wolf supporter have never heard other wolf supporters make many of the claims they accuse the pro-wolf side of making other than to say that “Wolves restore the natural balance.”

    Things like:
    Myth: They are about the size of a dog.
    Myth: Wolves only kill the sick and weak.
    Myth: The Scientific Community is 100% for wolf re-introduction.
    Myth: Wolves fear and avoid Humans.
    Myth: This Canadian Gray Wolf is our Native Wolf. (actually I believe this to be true)

  166. avatar Save bears says:

    Tm,

    You may not be responsible for the content on the website, but why would you let the rhetoric on the website stand? Especially the statements about “Canadian Wolves” and the 150-200 lb monster wolves?

    I also believe it is time for state management, and I do believe we have a recovered population that is not going away, but there was intent and purpose to the listing of wolves and if you read the ESA there are certain landmark goals that MUST be met before any endangered population is taken off the list, with the Idaho plan, they are not meeting those benchmarks.. and until such time as they do, you will continue to see lawsuits filed to maintain ESA status.

    We are not dealing with just a species, we are dealing with an ecosystem that has been unbalanced since settlers came to the country, we need to look at it as a whole package and not just bit and parcel, which is the way currently wildlife management is practiced…

    ———————————————————————–

    Jerry, I think Ralph exchanged our emails didn’t he, feel free to drop me a note..at this time, I am not at liberty to talk on the phone, but am more than happy to correspond via email.

  167. avatar JB says:

    Tony:

    The ESA calls upon the FWS to use the “best available biological information derived from professionally accepted wildlife management practices” and mandates that listing decisions be made “solely on the basis of the best scientific and commercial data available.” Certainly, FWS used this information; however, this is not the only requirement of the ESA.

    Clarifying my previous comments in depth would require more space than is available here, so I’ll try to do it in bullet form:

    (1) The ESA (1973, p. 1,532) defines an endangered species as “any species which is in danger of extinction throughout all or a significant portion of its range.”

    (2) The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals concluded that a species “[could] be extinct ‘throughout . . . a significant portion of its range’ if there are major geographical areas in which it is no longer viable but once was.”

    (3) In March of 2007, the Solicitor for DOI–the department’s top lawyer–issued a memorandum detailing his interpretation of the “significant portion of its range” phrase. The Solicitor made two key conclusions: (1) the term “range” refers to the current but not historical range of a species and (2) Interior is entitled to broad deference in their interpretation of the term “significant” and should be able to employ different definitions on a case-by-case basis.

    **The Solicitor’s opinion conflicts with (1) the Congressional record, (2) the intent of the ESA, (3) previous precedent, (4) previous actions of the FWS, and (5) the guidelines FWS drafted in 1979 for interpreting the phrase.

    A few examples…

    (a) FWS clearly interpreted range to include historical range when it recognized and listed four subspecies of the gray wolf despite the fact that the best available science indicated at least one of these subspecies
    (the Texas gray wolf; C. lupus monstrabilis) was “probably extinct.”

    (b) In May of 1979, FWS crafted draft guidelines for determining a species’ status. These guidelines defined a significant portion of a species’ range as “more than half of a species’ range, which may include historical as well as recent and anticipated future losses or . . . losses of habitat totaling less than 50 percent for species of relatively small range, or in other circumstances where the loss may have an inordinately large negative impact on the species’ survival.”

    (c) In 1978, Congress amended the critical habitat requirement of the ESA. The Act as amended required the FWS to first determine a species eligibility for listing and then to identify and designate critical habitat. The House Report noted that “[t]he term ‘range’ is used in the general sense and refers to the historical range of the species” H. Rep. No. 95–1625 (1978, p. 18).

    Problems with the Solicitor’s interpretation…

    (1) It could lead to significant delays in listing actions which could result in further reductions in range, in effect, reducing the species “current” range and limiting where it is entitled to protections.

    (2) It creates incentives for groups who oppose endangered species to delay/litigate listings. By delaying the listing of a species in rapid decline, opponents of endangered species could reduce the areas in which a species is eligible for protection because, as a species declines so too does the extent of its distribution.

    (3) It legitimates a shifting definition of “significance” which would invite lawsuits, further slowing the listing AND delisting processes.

    If you want more information read:

    Bruskotter, J.T. & Enzler, S.A. (2009). Narrowing the Definition of Endangered Species: Implications of the U.S. Government’s Interpretation of the Phrase “A Significant Portion of its Range” Under the Endangered Species Act of 1973. Human Dimensions of Wildlife (14):2.

  168. avatar Ryan says:

    Ken,
    It goes both ways, most of those myths posted on their website have alot of factual basis to them.

    Here is some Myths that have been posted on this website by pro wolf posters..

    Anytime an animal population is out of whack.. Wolves will solve it.
    Now that the republican consiracy is over, wolves will be safe.
    Wolves can live anywhere with no human impact, Hell lets move them into our backyards.
    IDFG’s goal is to make wolves extinct.
    Ungulate population declines in areas where wolve have been present for over a decade are not directly related to wolf predation.
    Wolves will solve all habitat problems.
    Deer and Elk are overpopulated in the west.
    Deer herd in the midwest haven’t collapsed with wolves present, therefore there should be no concern by hunters in the west.
    Wolf Watching in Yellowstone is the biggest draw.
    The list goes on and on… My point is this problem is only going to get worse as the fuse gets closer to the Powder keg. The lines in the sand will get deeper, and groups that should be allies on many enviromental issues will continue to be at each others throats while enviromental travesties happen under their respective watches because wolves are in the sites instead.

  169. avatar Greg says:

    I certainly do appreciate what Brian said.

    Can you guys explain to me why the Smithsonian Institution’s Museum of Natural History – Physiological ( Morphological ) Basis for Establishing a Northern Rocky Mountain DPS ; And this documents explanation concerning the identified 32 taxonomic subspecies of gray wolf world wide and this continents known 24 subspecies, and historical records showing this Canadian as the Northern most species on this continent, included are Theodore Roosevelt’s personal logs of time spent in the hunting area’s he frequented in the three states in question, As well Lewis and Clark wrote on the issue, then our science community of the 60s 70s era believed and approved the documentation, but we have today’s American scientific community refusing to formally endorse this science yet Professor Val Geist approves it, among other noted Canadian scientists, So to end the question why should I ignore once good science, in dispute today by the science click in charge today..?

    Also While growing up in Lowman Idaho, helping to build forest service roads with my father, spending time in the Red Mountain, Bear Valley, Sulpher Creek, Sea Foam, area’s and further south at Goat Mountain and Bear River, I watched wolves, 1970s-1980s. The last time I saw them was 1999. Why is this discounted, it’s true. I am not the only witness, either. Some people have photographic evidence..

    If there is government wrong doing why are we ignoring it..?

    Brian, what if this is the wrong wolf..? Shouldn’t we all demand a correction ?

    Why is the new wolf not behaving like what I saw in the past ?

    I believe no matter what the government comes up with no one is going to be satisfied. And the bottom line is all we can do is take it apart and call them on it..

    The bad thing is photo ops will get a lot harder. Is that your real worry ? 🙂
    .

  170. avatar JEFF E says:

    TM,
    To add to what Ken has said about your website I have to ask if you was standing on the sidelines of this issue but at the same time was either educated about the material at hand or took the time to research the statements made on your website such as the 150-200 lbs assertion( by the way this is just not true-by any stretch of the imagination), or your Canadian wolves statement(which I believe I know why that is such a persistent urban legend) or the ever popular “they eat their prey alive”,(along with95% or more of every other predator on the face of the planet), and in the same breath accuse the pro-wolf people of being less than honest about the parameters of reintroduction, what conclusions would you draw?

  171. avatar JB says:

    Myth: They are about the size of a dog. –Actually true! (Depending upon the size of the dog) 😉 They certainly don’t average 175-200 lbs as the anti-wolfers often claim.

    Myth: Wolves only kill the sick and weak. –Wolves TEND to kill the sick and weak because these animals are easier to kill (why waste energy trying to kill healthy animals if you have the opportunity to kill sick, easy prey?)

    Myth: The Scientific Community is 100% for wolf re-introduction. –Huh? I’ve never heard this.

    Myth: Wolves fear and avoid Humans. –Also generally true. Canids are neophobic; however their fear of people can be reduced through repeated exposure with no negative stimulus (i.e. habituation) or through food conditioning.

    Myth: This Canadian Gray Wolf is our Native Wolf. –I don’t know of any recognized species or subspecies of gray wolf that goes by this name. Can you say “straw man”?

  172. avatar Greg says:

    I edited my reply at the end, I believe hunting the wolf will be very difficult and the majority of tag holders will fail, the wolf we be more nocturnal and less out of the timber during the light of day.. thus photo ops will be harder work to..

    Sorry I’m in a hurry.. Brian Ertz I would love a sit down sometime to share some documents..and get your opinion on those documents..thanks. 🙂

  173. avatar JEFF E says:

    Greg Farber,
    I too believed that there were 24 sub-species in the mid-late seventies. At that time that was the best available science.
    The Internet was also just an idea at that time.

  174. avatar TM says:

    Below are excerpts from a study available on our website which provides evidence that the introduced Canadian Gray Wolf was the wrong species to attempt to recover.
    —————————————————————————-
    Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History – Physiological (Morphological) Basis for Establishing a Northern Rocky Mountain DPS:

    The professionally sanctioned taxonomy of mammals is published by the American Society of Mammalogists and follows taxonomy in Mammal Species of the World used by the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History. The gray wolf taxonomy currently recognized by the American Society of Mammalogists continues to be based on Mech (1974), which identified 32 taxonomic subspecies of gray wolf worldwide, including 24 subspecies in North America. The scientific community has yet to formally endorse and accept a revised gray wolf taxonomy. The current taxonomy identifies C. l. irremotus as the wolf subspecies that historically occupied the Northern Rocky Mountain area. The range of C. l. irremotus abutted the ranges of C. l. occidentalis and C. l. columbianus some distance north of the Canadian border, and it abutted the range of C. l. nubilus on the east. Under a strict interpretation of the current taxonomy, wolves that were introduced to YNP and central Idaho were from founder populations of C. l. occidentalis and C. l. columbianus

    The issue of appropriate subspecies was raised, and the Service responded in the final rule to designate a nonessential experimental population in the GYA [59 FR 60252

    Petitioners have reviewed the 3 aforementioned studies. Each commented on the biological appropriateness of releasing wolves obtained from founder populations in Canada, into YNP and central Idaho. The Brewster and Fritts (1995) publication in particular appeared to be a justification for the use of Canadian wolves for the YNP [re]introduction. Nowak (1995:397) determined the gray wolf historically present in YNP was more similar to the present wolf population in Minnesota, which he regarded as being most closely related to C. l. nubilus. Nowak also indicated the wolves to be released into YNP were from C. l. occidentalis founder stock in Canada. Morphologically, C. l. occidentalis is significantly larger than C. l. nubilus. Brewster and Fritts (1995:366) reported,

    Brewster and Fritts (1995:373) conclusion that the “original genetic stock cannot be restored to [the western U.S.], as it no longer exists” was contradicted by Nowak’s (1995:397) conclusion that “the extirpated wolf population of the Yellowstone region is closely related to the living population of Minnesota, both regarded here as part of the subspecies C. l. nubilus.”

    C. l. occidentalis is a distinctly larger wolf adapted to colder climates. Therefore, the integrity of this particular boundary or cline should be given substantial deference in the selection of appropriate founder stock and in the identification of an appropriate DPS boundary, irrespective of the ongoing debate over more precise aspects of wolf taxonomy.

    “Bergman’s Rule,” a widely accepted principal of evolutionary selection, has found species and races of homoeothermic animals in colder climates typically have larger bodies than their relatives living in warmer climates (Frings and Frings 1970:282; Welty 1975:130,432). The average weight of 28 male wolves in the northern U.S. Rockies [presumably, occidentalis stock] is 100 lbs, 30% larger than male wolves in Wisconsin

    The Canadian wolf is a larger subspecies adapted to a colder, more northerly climate. The introduction of the C. l. occidentalis type to more southerly latitudes outside its historic range is inconsistent with Conservation Biology principles, and has potential implications for species adaptation in the context of global climate change.
    5) Finally, the Service has not rigorously explored the biological question and the legality under the ESA of “recovering” a taxon or type by expanding the historic range of a less similar type, when more closely related founder stock still remains available (i.e., the Minnesota/Wisconsin wolves).

  175. avatar Ken Cole says:

    The nice thing about science is that it is changing all of the time because we learn new things.

  176. avatar Jeff N. says:

    Ryan,

    This isn’t a website in the true sense. It is a blog site where news articles are posted and where opinions are expressed, unlike the “Save Elk” site where a position is being taken by anti-wolf proponents that have no problem lying and where scientific is diregarded……”Canadian hybrid wolves”..WTF is that.

    And as a regular visitor to this site and a wolf supporter who is not opposed to state management, your list of positions (myths) that you claim are expressed on this site is a stretch if not outright B.S. Please do your best to dig up, from your list, any of the pro-wolf myths that you can attribute to this site.

    One last gem…..are you actually saying that wolf proponents on this site are saying that the deer population in the midwest has NOT collapsed where wolves are present but you have evidence that this is untrue and a myth. Please verify and report back asap.

  177. avatar Jeff N. says:

    !st paragraph typo…should read “where scientific evidence is disregarded”

  178. avatar Ken Cole says:

    For Gawd’s sake, some of the wolves reintroduced were capture just 300 miles north of the Idaho border. They eat elk and deer, they are the same size, they disperse hundreds of miles, and there is no barrier between the populations that once lived here.

    What makes you think that the wolves that people were seeing during the 70’s and 80’s near Bear Valley weren’t wolves that made it here on their own from Canada? What makes you think that those wolves weren’t subsequently illegally killed by poaching and poisoning? The wolf in the lobby of the IDFG headquarters was one that was found poisoned in Bear Valley.

    You seem to think that the wolves brought here were from the arctic. It’s not true!

    Here are the weights of all of the original re-introduced wolves and the weights of the wolves subsequently caught and collared in Yellowstone over the years.
    http://wolves.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/a-complete-table-of-yellowstone-wolves-1995-2008/
    The average weight of adult males is 113 lbs with a range of 76-140
    The average weight of adult females is 92 lbs with a range of 72-121

  179. avatar Jeff N. says:

    Ken,

    Those wolves, back then, where “acting differently”. Maybe they didn’t have the proper paperwork to be on this side of the border and were a little more concerned with being deported. That may explain why they seemed paranoid and a little more secretive.

  180. avatar Brian Ertz says:

    Greg,
    I’d be happy to sit down and change your mind 😉 just be as willing to listen to my perspective – and reject it if you would – you can even call me an anti-grazing extremist activist – just don’t pretend that saying as much is an honest alternative to a legitimate argument – or that my beliefs ought sideline my relevance.

    Save Bears,
    “What I want” + its supporting merit of law, science, & value is at least as legit as your want for everyone to behave “moderately”. Again, go ahead and call it extreme & pretend like that’s a sound substitute for reason.

    Ryan,
    ICL & Defenders asked for a “Wolf Watching Area” that would not be subject to a hunting season. IMO, it was an inadequate request for “boutique wolves” in central Idaho that ignored the legitimate valuation of diverse wildlife of which wolves are an essential influence – the trophic cascade as jerry b references – while hanging the rest of Idaho’s wolves inhabiting Livestock dominated public lands out to dry. It also trivialized many more of the more prescient reasons why Idaho management is innappropriate at this time. IDFG totally dismissed the idea, and shortly after, for good measure, the comission adopted a limit on wolf tags that exceeded even the permissive recommendation of its own biologists. Simply put, the meek proposal coming from those wolf-advocates out of the collaboration got stonewalled, IDFG issued a press release celebrating their inclusive “open process” for developing the plan, and the commission spited its own science opting for more aggressive “management”. That’s pretty much the story of the battered-spouse-syndrome collaborative-conservation tempermant in Idaho – we celebrate the access on the way into the room, then scratch our heads on the way out after being used for a nice celebratory piece in the paper about everyone coming together.

  181. avatar JEFF E says:

    TM,
    you are citing science that is 35 years out of date. what has been established from that time is something called genetics research. The same science that is accepted in courts of law around the world to decide the guilt or innocence of those who have committed or accused of committing the whole spectrum of crimes. the same science that is used by the FWS lab in Roseland, Oregon, and the UCLA school of molecular biology which is where Wayne does his genetic research.
    Even less than ten years ago it was all but impossible to differentiate between domestic dogs and wolves genetically. Today not only is that ability to distinguish the two routine it can also be determined which specific breed of dog your talking about or from where a particular wolf may have originated. That is just the facts of the matter.

  182. avatar Save bears says:

    Brian,

    I have to say, I am getting tired of your assumptions that I am pretending and wishing, it is getting old, you have taken quite an attitude with anyone that thinks solutions are possible albeit using a different tactic than you advocate.

    I am highly educated with a degree in the areas that are discussed on this blog, and your condescending nature is really getting to be something, so please stop it

  183. avatar Save bears says:

    Also,

    I never once said you were extremist, at least in my memory of the many posts I have made on this blog, if I have, please point it out to me..

  184. avatar JB says:

    “Brewster and Fritts (1995:373) conclusion that the “original genetic stock cannot be restored to [the western U.S.], as it no longer exists” was contradicted by Nowak’s (1995:397) conclusion that “the extirpated wolf population of the Yellowstone region is closely related to the living population of Minnesota, both regarded here as part of the subspecies C. l. nubilus.”

    I fail to see where these two conclusions conflict? Nowak wasn’t saying that wolves in Minnesota were of the “original genetic stock” of those in the GYE, he didn’t even say that wolves in Minnesota were MORE closely related to C. l. nubilus than wolves in Canada. In fact, such an assertion seems extremely improbable given the distance from YNP to the Canadian border v. Minnesota. Regardless, the species in either place occupies the same ecological niche. Where was this published?

  185. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    TM, the line between differentiating subspecies is a very large gray area that as Jeff E has pointed out. People are always revising this. However, if you get right down to it, the difference between the wolf subspecies in the Great Lakes and the west is not as major as say the difference between Arctic wolves is with Indian and Arabian wolves. All of these are the same species Canis lupus. These wolves were chosen because they would be the ones who would know how to hunt elk and not just moose and white-tailed deer like the wolves in the Great Lakes hunt. This situation is being compared to the introduction of mongooses to Hawaii in which case a true non-native species did have a disastrous effect. As Ken pointed out, this subspecies is within a reasonable dispersing distance from Canada. Since wolves do disperse, it is probably reasonable to suspect that in some areas that there is some hybridization with other subspecies, thus making the argument of a non-native subspecies less valid.

  186. avatar JEFF E says:

    TM, Greg Farber,
    Nowak also suggested in 1995 that the number of Sub-species of wolves be reduced to five from the 24 that were generally accepted by many taxonomists at that time.

  187. avatar JEFF E says:

    here is another exercise that one could do if so inclined.
    Take a map of Alberta, Canada and expand it on a copy machine so that it fits nicely on a 11×17 paper.
    note on this map Hinton, Alberta and the Athabasca river which flows thru Hinton and where the majority of the original wolves were captured, I believe ?within a 50 mile radius? (an afternoon stroll for any self respecting wolf).
    Then find a copy of Hall’s “The wolves of North America” who was the primary originator of the named 24 sub-species of Canis lupus.
    In that book find the Figure where the “boundaries” of these sub-species is drawn.
    Take that page and expand it on a copy machine to the same scale as the map of Alberta. Then take the photocopy of the “boundaries” and copy that onto a clear overlay and place it over the map of Alberta.
    Please report back with your results so that I can compare it with mine.

  188. avatar jdubya says:

    This issue of the genetics of the wolves is not a hard one to address. Dog genome research tells us which genes show expression or structural polymorphisms: those are the genes that make breeds of dogs what they are, and strains of wolves (if they exist) what THEY are. That lets you ignore the rest of the dog/wolf genome ’cause it does not vary.

    Then just find some nice wolf hides/skeletons/etc taken from the animals killed in the lower 48 in the 1900’s, extract some DNA, compare these polymorphic genes with the current residents of Yellowstone and see how they match (or don’t). That will tell you exactly how different or similar the animals today are from those 100 years ago. (Which is what, maybe 15 wolf generations???)

    As I recall, there is not much of a barrier for wolf travel between Canada and the US so the idea of some genetic exclusion principle (them Canadian wolves is different from the old US wolves) is absurd. Or more diplomatically put, grasping at straws.

  189. avatar jdubya says:

    oh yeah, one more thought.

    Animals strive for genetic diversity. You don’t know it, but you want to have sex with someone who has different genetics than you instead of someone who is the same. If you take inbred strains of animals, the females will take on enormous hardships in order to find males outside of their genetic cluster. There would be a strong biological urge in this case for wolves to leave their genetic kin and look for diversity elsewhere. It is well documented that wolves can travel 500 to 1000 miles, so why not do it for a reason, good sex!

  190. avatar JEFF E says:

    Correction: the book Wolves of North America was authored by Young and Goldman and THEY were the primary originators of the 24 Sub-species.
    Sorry, too many reference books open at the same time

  191. avatar Jeff N. says:

    This talk about subspecies and Canadian wolves is getting to much play in this thread…IMO….wolves were reintroduced to (Pro wolf myth coming…..) restore a top predator back to its rightful place in the ecosystem. Whether it’s the 115 lb. wolf in the northern rockies or the 70 lb. lobo here in AZ, they eat elk and deer and the occasional sacred cow. Genetics have and will transfer and this discussion concerning which wolf inhabited Idaho is pointless to most and a strawman to a few.

  192. avatar JEFF E says:

    Your probably right in one sense Jeff N but unfortunately that is a major stumbling block, still, to having all sides move on and getting to where everyone is more or less on the same page. What my point is, is that whether we use Young and Goldmans’ original data of c.l.irremotus which had it’s northern boundary decided as (surprise) the Athabasca river and included Hinton, Alberta, Canada, or if it is modern genetics we are still talking about the same wolf. And IF even that was accepted by all sides it would be a major step in the right direction. (obviously this does not apply to the Mexican wolves which are a separate sub species.)

  193. avatar Greg says:

    Plenty to Google there thanks. I am interested in all independent studies on the species issue. No offense but I do not trust F.W.S or I.F.G. You see trusting their info would be like trusting the defense lawyers for O.J. Or the prosecution… I believe we depend on them to much.

    The wolves we saw in those prior years to this reintroduction probably did exactly the same things as their new counter parts today do, but with a smaller population of wolves, and people, kills went less noticed, practice kills to train young, other wise reflex and sport kills also would have been less noticed, I can tell you Idaho was much wilder and more beautiful then. Access was more limited, due to deeper snows and equipment issues of that era.

    Brian, We likely can not change each others mind, we should only share our points, if evidence leads one or both of us to make a change that’s up to our individual mind to decide. I do not even know where your mindset is at anyhow. And I think people should add to their belief system and keep their original mindset at the same time.. I want to discuss a soil issue with you, off line, or in private e-mail.

  194. avatar Cobra says:

    It doesn’t realy matter what wolves are here. They’re here and probably here to stay regardless of delisting or not.
    Seems to me there are some Ron Gillettes on both sides of this issue. Nothing will ever be accomplished through the extremes on either side. I’m with S.B. Midle of the road and go from there.

  195. Some folks I know are looking for recent scientific studies regarding the genetic similarity between the supposed sub-species c.l. irremotus, which was, according to some, the original wolf here, and the wolves brought down from Canada to be introduced in 1995-6.

    Of course no one has ever found the term “Canadian gray wolf” in the scientific literature.

    I kind of think the whole matter is so obvious that no recent scientist has even bothered to write a paper, but I could be wrong.

    So some folks are trying to find an article.

  196. avatar Lynne Stone says:

    To Greg Farber – You wrote the following on the sunvalleyonline blog:

    “Lynn Stone said to Tim Kemery when Tim politely wished to show her some new evidence he had located, ” I hate you more than I hate Ron Gillette.”

    That’s not what I said to Kemmery. What I said to trapper Tim Kemery from Challis, when he came up to me before the meeting, was that I did not want to talk to him, and would he please stop trying to contact me, that we had nothing to discuss. That was it.

    For the record, my name is spelled Lynne, not Lynn. Gillett is spelled Gillett.

    To Tony Mayer – I do not work for Defenders of Wildlife (DOW). I was never asked to speak on the panel at the Hailey anti-wolf rally keynoted by Ron Gillett.

    I left after Gillett spoke because Tony Mayer (saveourelk) and Tim Kemery were next up.

  197. avatar TM says:

    I understood the major reason, intent and the legal basis behind the establishment of the ESA was to recover an endangered species with the requirement to make every effort to both identify the endangered taxon and then locate founder stock that best approximates the species.
    This was elaborated in the above posted Smithsonian sanctioned study. This appears to have been mostly ignored. One can only come to the conclusion that those individuals involved already had pre-determined what founder stock they were going to recover, even if it meant a questionable taxon.
    Most pro-wolf advocates appear to ignore or “whitewash” the conclusions, as they attempt to rationalize this “re-introduction” Regardless of whether one is pro-wolf or not, shouldn’t the scientific community be as equally interested in insuring the recovery the right taxon beyond a reasonable doubt? Rationalizing comments ignoring the scientific facts and evidence at the time are disturbing and have questionable underpinnings. Does the end justify the means?

  198. avatar jdubya says:

    TM you said: “”Regardless of whether one is pro-wolf or not, shouldn’t the scientific community be as equally interested in insuring the recovery the right taxon beyond a reasonable doubt?””

    Fine,, prove to me that the genetics of the wolves currently living in Yellowstone are different than those living there in 1895. You will need DNA from a few dozen Yellowstone wolves from the late 1800’s and the same from wolves currently in Yellowstone. Give them to a good dog genetics lab and let them analyze them. You will find no significant differences between those “taxons”, telling you they are in fact one.

  199. avatar JEFF E says:

    TM,
    again you are using science that is 35 years old.
    The ESA also authorizes the secretary of Interior to, and I am paraphrasing, to come as close as possible to the original species, which in this case was a exact match no matter which data you depend on, Young and Goldman’s original classification or modern genetics.
    Unfortunatlly what you and many other people are pointing to as evidence is when Hall redrew Young and Goldmans original sub-species classification boundaries.
    If the two are compared they are a near exact match except Hall put c.l.irremoutus northern boundary a few hundred miles further south at a line that makes even less sense than Young and Goldmans line of the Athabasca river.
    Check it out and tell me what could possibly be a factor in Hall’s version that would determine a species subcategories…anything.
    No, Tony it is you that refuse to look at facts, historical or current and accept reality. you never engage in a fact by fact discussion, but sidestep and fall back on hyperbole and innuendo.

  200. Wolf restoration is not just a matter of genetics. Wolves also learn what to hunt from their pack and the prey in the area where they live. The wolves that came from near Jasper NP in Alberta and Ft. St. John in B.C. had the same prey base as in ID/MT/WY.

    This has been explained in a number of books on the reintroduction. They made sure these wolves came from places with prey as similar as possible as Idaho, Montana and Wyoming.

    The wolves they captured were wolves familiar with hunting no. 1, elk, but also deer and moose. The Ft. St. John wolves also hunted bison.

    Wolves from farther north were never considered because they took caribou and the Alaskan moose. Wolves from coastal B.C. fish.

  201. avatar TM says:

    Jeff E.
    It’s not I who is refusing to look at the facts. The conclusions of the study are a matter of record and the best available information at the time. One cannot simply wish away this scientific evidence and the fact that it was apparently ignored.

    Again to reference the above study:

    “The Canadian wolf is a larger subspecies adapted to a colder, more northerly climate. The introduction of the C. l. occidentalis type to more southerly latitudes outside its historic range is inconsistent with Conservation Biology principles, and has potential implications for species adaptation in the context of global climate change.
    5) Finally, the Service has not rigorously explored the biological question and the legality under the ESA of “recovering” a taxon or type by expanding the historic range of a less similar type, when more closely related founder stock still remains available (i.e., the Minnesota/Wisconsin wolves)”.

    “The current taxonomy identifies C. l. irremotus as the wolf subspecies that historically occupied the Northern Rocky Mountain area. The range of C. l. irremotus abutted the ranges of C. l. occidentalis and C. l. columbianus some distance north of the Canadian border, and it abutted the range of C. l. nubilus on the east. Under a strict interpretation of the current taxonomy, wolves that were introduced to YNP and central Idaho were from founder populations of C. l. occidentalis and C. l. columbianus”

  202. TM,

    See my comment above.

    Also note that there was lawsuit on this, and the court ruled that the wolves to be captured were the same as pre-existed.

  203. Has anyone who thinks these wolves are different ever been to Hinton, Alberta? It is Rocky Mountains foothills country with a climate very similar to NW Wyoming and the mountains of central Idaho and western Montana. It is not a much colder place.

  204. avatar JEFF E says:

    TM,
    35 years out of date.
    The ESA specifically gives the secretary the latitude to determine an appropriate sub-species under the ESA which in this case is an exact match.
    The law suit that has already decided this question as pointed out by Ralph.And I believe that particular action was instigated by the antis
    Modern genetic research.
    Young and Goldman’s original classification.
    prey selection as Ralph pointed out.
    Documented size and wight data from the very beginning, would you care to discuss your oft repeated 200lb myth?
    please make a point by point refutation and thus open the door for point by point discussion.
    So far as I can tell all you have is one 35 year old document.

  205. avatar JEFF E says:

    TM says”range of C. l. irremotus….some distance north of the Canadian border,…….”
    which is the Athabasca river as per Young and Goldman, the taxonomists that originally designated the 24 supposed sub-species that you often refer to

  206. avatar TM says:

    Jeff,
    I will repeat my previous comment “does the end justify the means?” It would have been nice to see more effort in researching the Taxonomist findings as they have the
    The 200 lb. comment resulted from a first hand account by several individuals in the Riggins area, in which they witnessed a very large wolf that had inadvertently been trapped . THe IDF&G and FWS were called. The wolf was in tranquilized, inspected, weighed and released. It was reported that the wolf weighed over 200 lbs. We have the specific names of the individuals who witnessed the incident.

  207. avatar Save bears says:

    TM,

    Then publish them and the circumstances so it can be independently verified…

  208. avatar JEFF E says:

    TM/”…. would have been nice to see more effort in researching the Taxonomist findings as they have the….”
    you don’t seem to be making a connection here. They have, it went to court, the tenth U.S. circuit court issued an opinion. Short story: same wolf
    If you have data saying otherwise, go to court and prove your case.
    200lb—– what save bears says

  209. avatar TM says:

    I will contact the individuals who reported the large wolf.

  210. avatar Ken Cole says:

    I call BS on the 200lb wolf.
    I would like the name of the person who responded.
    Was it someone from the Nez Perce Tribe? They are who manage wolves in that area.

  211. If there had really been a 200 pound wolf, everyone would have heard of it. Its photograph would be all over the web.

    The same is true if they had a 160 pound wolf.

    However, even if there a 200 pound wolf, we already know average size from the weighing of hundreds of wolves in Idaho, Wyoming and Montana.

    A 200 pound wolf would be a freak, and it probably would be slow, unhealthy, and not live long — like a 500 pound human.

  212. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    If I shot a 200 pound wolf I would be sure to call Guinness World Records.

  213. avatar Salle says:

    A 200lbs wolf?! What a crock of BS ~ like the rest of the stuff on that “save our elk” web site, like that myth-buster propaganda/rubbish you have posted there.

    When you can face reality, then someone might take what info you have to offer with a little more positive interest. Get real.

  214. avatar Jeff N. says:

    TM’s phony concern about genetics is laughable. He is full of crap and he knows it. These anti-wolf types (TM, Gillett, etc….) would still be pissing and moaning regardless of the origin of the wolf reintroduced ID. Why we are even having this conversation with him is beyond me. Whether the wolf weighs 120 lbs. or 60 lbs., or whether it came from Canada or Wisconsin, the truth is that these people are afraid of the wolf and they piss and shit their pants every time they walk into the woods for fear of being “sport killed” by a pack.

  215. avatar timz says:

    from what I could find looking into this a few weeks ago the official record for a gray wolf was shot in Bulgaria in 2007, weighing just over 176 lbs. Prior to that that the record was 175, a wolf shot in Alaska in 1939. two wolves over 170 in 70 years.

  216. avatar Salle says:

    If you “click” on his ID ~ TM, you will see that it is a live link and it takes you to a web site that would be funny if the producers weren’t serious. It’s the “save our elk” web site and they have all these supposed myth-buster claims…

    Three guesses as to whom it may be that is supposedly “educating” the folks on this blog, whether they post or just read, about their unsubstantiated “proof” that wolves are some kind of menace.

  217. avatar Barb says:

    I think what Western Watersheds is doing is going to go a long way to getting cattle out of the West. And sadly, developers will get the cattle out too…. It’s not so much the cattle ranching itself but the mentality that lethal means MUST be used to “control” native predatory animals.

    The predatory animals have more of a right to that land in my mind than the rancher who is introducing a Eurasian mammal into the mix, leaving it unsecured for months at a time, and expecting that predators will somehow leave it alone — and if they don’t, they have good ol’ “Wildlife Services” to help them, courtesy of Uncle Sam. Wow, what an incredible sense of entitlement these arrogant western livestock people have.

  218. avatar TM says:

    My friend Dr. Val Geist sent me this reference on the wolf size issue. We are still attempting to verify the Riggings wolf.

    The heaviest wolves on record for Eurasia are two wolves from the Ukraine weighing 92 kg (202.4 lbs) and 96 kg (211.2 lbs). See Heptner et al. (1967) Mammals of the Soviet Union Vpl. 11, Part 1a. p. 174. Smithsonian Institution Library.Amerind Publishing Co. New Delhi. In an expanding, colonizing population expect giants. Cheers, Val Geist

  219. avatar Brian Ertz says:

    Barb,

    I agree with your sentiment – I believe that the real threat to wolves, and other predators, wildlife & systems is the persistence of introduced, exotic precursors to conflict – livestock. That’s the root.

    It’d be interesting to know, and I’d speculate, that the hunting contingency – and its agency extension at IDFG – that is highly adversial to wolves is extensively fueled and highly dependent on the political prominance of agricultural/rancher players at the state & local levels. I don’t think it’s entirely unreasonable to suggest that the ire of hunters/sportsmen political sentiment and the extent to which it carries would be substantially diminished in the relative absence – either in the halls of the statehouse and/or on the public landscape itself – of Livestock.

    When the state gets management, and even now before – I think that the extent to which we can insist on the best use of public landscapes as managed for the benefit of the general public (necessarily absent ranching) is the extent to which greater tolerance for all wildlife, especially predators, will take root at all levels.

  220. avatar Salle says:

    Dr. Geist has submitted less than credible information regarding predators in the past…

    I question his credibility in this case… especially the closing comment.

  221. avatar Chuck says:

    The Mackenzie Valley Wolf (Canis lupus occidentalis) also known as the Rocky Mountain Wolf, Alaskan Timber Wolf or Canadian Timber Wolf is perhaps the largest subspecies of Gray Wolf in North America. Its range includes parts of the western United States, much of western Canada, and Alaska, including Unimak Island in the Aleutians, and was reintroduced into Yellowstone National Park and central Idaho.[2]
    Mackenzie Valley Wolves typically stand about 32-36 inches (81-91 cm) at the shoulder and males weigh between 100 and 145 pounds (45 – 65 kg). The weight record is held by a wild specimen caught in Alaska in 1939 which weighed 175 pounds.[3]

    The Mackenzie Valley Wolf has a specialized body that has made it one of the world’s most efficient hunters. Its thick, long limbs are proportionally built for traversing through rough terrain such as deep snow or the cliffy edges of the Rocky Mountains. Its deep chest hosts large lungs, letting the wolf breathe more efficiently at higher altitudes, and allowing it to exert huge amounts of stamina traveling up to 115km (~70 miles) in one day. Its powerful neck is a very important adaptation: it has to be strong to support the wolf’s large head and is crucial for bringing down prey. The Mackenzie Valley Wolf maximizes heat retention through such methods as using its bushy tail to cover its exposed nose during the winter. It sheds its undercoat during the summer months due to the hotter conditions.

    I’m sorry but a 200lb wolf, total BS, of course unless its a hybrid and fed very well.

  222. avatar Ken Cole says:

    When did we start talking about wolves of the Soviet Union? The wolves we have here are not from there, at least not in modern times anyway.

  223. avatar Greg says:

    Do we have records of wolves killed by government hunter/trappers in the last 14 years, F.W.S. has records, also those several video tapes the hunter/trappers take in the field of wolf activity do exist, has anyone seen these, are they available to the public ?

    And if the records are not available then why not..? If a hunter/trapper kills a record wolf while in the employee of F.W.S he can not take credit nor speak of the record animal..They can not share video with the public either. Why then ?

    One such employee leaked to me he killed a 165 pound wolf near Danskin Idaho…I saw the dog guys.. You folks need to realize that these people are under gag order, as well Idaho Fish And Game employees are under gag order…

    Brian would you like to meet one of my friends who is under gag order who works for the department ? And get some real truth about the Puppet of F.W.S. known as Idaho Fish And Game..Come on you guys..

    Who created the mentality you wish to defeat ? The government did, who created your mentality ? The government did.. Brian I have lived in Idaho/Wyoming for 50 years, raised horses, I have all my life had a tolerance for all wild animal’s, especially predators..And if you over protect the predator, you end up with only predators..

    I did not invent history..I only research it..

    The sad thing is apparently you folks are going to need to see this occur first hand to believe it..

    Who authorized the wipe out of Buffalo in the mid to late 1800s ? Your government did.. Why ? To starve out the Native American, it was an act of war…To destroy their Heritage, now we are doing it to one another… to funny..

    Both sides of this debate should stop acting infallible..

  224. avatar JEFF E says:

    this is from Wikipedia(I know, I know) however I would like to point out the citations #8 and 9.
    Whose names are associated with this passage.
    Hmmmmm

    “Though rarely encountered, extreme specimens of more than 77 kg (170 lb.) have been recorded in Alaska, Canada[7], and the former Soviet Union.[8] The heaviest recorded gray wolf in the New World was killed on 70 Mile River in east-central Alaska on July 12, 1939 and weighed 79 kg (175 lb.)[6], while the heaviest recorded wolf in the Old World was killed after World War II in the Kobelyakski Area of the Poltavskij Region in the Ukrainian SSR, and weighed 86 kg (189 lb.).[9]
    #8 ^ a b c d e f g h Graves, Will (2007). Wolves in Russia: Anxiety throughout the ages. pp. pp.222. ISBN 1550593323. http://www.wolvesinrussia.com/.
    #9 ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l Perspectives on wolves in Russia and the USSR in Will Graves, and Valerius Geist, editors. Wolves in Russia. Detselig Enterprises Ltd. 210, 1220 Kensington Road NW, ”
    here is the link to the article,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf#cite_ref-Graves_7-0

  225. avatar JEFF E says:

    this is from Wikipedia(I know, I know) however I would like to point out the citations #8 and 9.
    Whose names are associated with this passage.
    Hmmmmm

    “Though rarely encountered, extreme specimens of more than 77 kg (170 lb.) have been recorded in Alaska, Canada[7], and the former Soviet Union.[8] The heaviest recorded gray wolf in the New World was killed on 70 Mile River in east-central Alaska on July 12, 1939 and weighed 79 kg (175 lb.)[6], while the heaviest recorded wolf in the Old World was killed after World War II in the Kobelyakski Area of the Poltavskij Region in the Ukrainian SSR, and weighed 86 kg (189 lb.).[9]
    #8 ^ a b c d e f g h Graves, Will (2007). Wolves in Russia: Anxiety throughout the ages. pp. pp.222. ISBN 1550593323.
    #9 ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l Perspectives on wolves in Russia and the USSR in Will Graves, and Valerius Geist, editors. Wolves in Russia. Detselig Enterprises Ltd. 210, 1220 Kensington Road NW, ”
    here is the link to the article,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf#cite_ref-Graves_7-0

  226. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    In an expanding, colonizing population expect giants. Cheers, Val Geist.

    Where did this research come from? So with this logic, if we reintroduced bison from Yellowstone into a prairie into the Nebraska Sandhills, does that mean that we will start having bison the size of rhinos?

  227. avatar mikarooni says:

    Geist has grown old; his mind has clouded; and he is now being exploited by the bad company he now keeps.

  228. avatar Greg says:

    ” Val Geist has been less than credible in the past ” Prove this. Why are independents attacked and attempts to discredit them are taken ? Is there a panel of P.H.Ds discrediting Geist…Link please..

    If the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History – Physiological ( Morphological) basis for establishing a Northern Rocky Mountain DPS.. and this document in it’s entirety is 35 year old junk science.. THEN

    Why are we teaching Erasmus Darwin’s Evolutionary writings,(among other authors of that era) and Introduced by Charles Darwin. and actually proven to be Centuries older than both these men, in our public school’s system.. Since we know this “science” in the general populations knowledge base is 150+ years old..Why is it excepted ?

    You can’t have it both ways, are we going to toss Evolution? I personally think we should…BUT right now since it is yesterdays science it must be bunk..

    .If we are going to start tossing science how about math…Man has used this for centuries, Can any of you find a reason to toss the original mathematical treatise itself..After all even I know how to use the direct propagation of the prime numbers, a PHD taught me to use a powerful new mathematical formula which when used correctly the prime numbers can then be directly calculated using only addition and subtraction starting with the numbers 0 and 1…

    This is 30 years old as well, better toss it, it works, better dump it…It fails to fit up to modern day models- trash can it..The general public don’t need it, Maybe we could get Congress a math lesson, wouldn’t that be cool.. Where do we stop, I could list hundreds of old science studies we all need and use every day..except if it appears to prove us in error, then it’s bunk…

    That said I think we should fire all those Rancher elites in our State Capitol since you fear their control of Idaho’s eco systems, even though we saw these men and women ask the Federal Government for permission to cull wolves in the Lolo..Clear Water Ranges…Why did they ASK permission-Because their not the boss…The Feds are..Regardless I think we should hand over control to you all…100% complete control.. I am not kidding around..

    You guys want it, I say give them the keys to the bus..Your out numbered in Idaho, I advise you not to crash the bus, I want more wolves, close all the hunts period..We will keep our guns though…Lets see your perfect eco system…You manage it…I’m pissed about the goats to…Do you have a plan to deal with the angry mob..if you fail..? Lets see what a bunch of city desk jockeys can do…

    Lets stand back and let nature take over..seems like the fastest way to truth to me.I’ll watch you from Wyoming…

  229. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    ” Val Geist has been less than credible in the past ” Prove this.

    In an expanding, colonizing population expect giants. Cheers, Val Geist. If he did say this I would say this is a sign of being less than credible.

    Also, science is constantly changing. There are always new advances and old theories get discredited or revised. Alchemy was a scientific fact for many years. So was the idea of a flat earth and a geocentric universe. So yes, it is possible that the science that is 35 years old is outdated. The reason we are still learning about Darwin is that so far it has not had enough truth to be discredited.

    And yes, I am acknowledging that the science that I base my arguments on could someday become out of date, but so far the science that I believe had been proven over many decades and has not been discredited by anyone whom I would consider credible.

  230. avatar TM says:

    It looks like both sides of this argument are intent on wading through the scientific literature and cherry picking what best suites their position.

    I will stand by my allegation and question in this matter “Does the end justify the means?”

  231. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    It looks like both sides of this argument are intent on wading through the scientific literature and cherry picking what best suites their position.

    TM, when you are arguing a certain point you do “cherry pick” the points that prove it, which does require “wading” through literature. I speak for myself at least when I say that while I do this I am sure not to take things out of context. I think that a lot of us are questioning the site saveelk.com because the science presented is not convincing to us, just as I’m sure our science we are citing is not convincing to you.

    Also, what do you mean when you ask does the end justify the means?

  232. avatar Salle says:

    What end ? And by what means do you refer?

  233. avatar JEFF E says:

    TM,
    please be more specific and put your question in context sot that we may compare apples to apples.
    Greg Farber,
    My point is that all TM is basing his present argument on is only this one document. It is 35 years old and does not take into account science that did not exist at that time.
    The rest of your post is close to blather.
    hopefully you will not digress into your usual everybody is a communist rant

  234. avatar Greg says:

    Jeff E you brought it up,

    Read the Bill of Rights and the Commie Manifesto especially the Ten Planks and then tell us please which one we use. If you don’t know what a communist is, who’s at fault ? You or me..Anything in opposition to your belief system is a rant..In fact i have done several blogs showing those definitions, feel free to de-bunk any of them anytime.. good luck pal..

  235. avatar JB says:

    “You can’t have it both ways, are we going to toss Evolution? I personally think we should…BUT right now since it is yesterdays science it must be bunk..”

    Really? You seriously think we should “toss” out the theory of evolution by natural selection? And what theory will you replace it with?

    FYI: You CAN have it both ways. Let me explain how science works: some theories get discredited over time, as new evidence arises. Meanwhile, other theories hold up quite well–or in the language of science–attempts to disprove these theories fail.

    Evolution by natural selection is so simple, so fundamental, so obvious, that it is as close as we’ve come to an ecological “law.” To be an evolutionist you have only to believe three things: (1) individuals within a species vary (i.e. they are different); (2) some traits provide the individuals that possess them with an advantage (i.e. a long, dense coat is useful in cold climates); and (3) individuals who possess traits that are advantages will tend to have higher fitness (i.e. leave more offspring) than those who do not. Anyone who has bred animals can agree with these three principles and can thus consider themselves an “evolutionist.” Evolution by natural selection, in the language of science, has not been disproven. The “theory” that wolves from Canada are fundamentally different from wolves that live across the boarder in the U.S. interest-based drivel.

  236. avatar Greg says:

    Evolution by natural selection, in the language of science has never been proven. And in fact was first dreamed up in Ancient Sumeria-Babylon-Greece, first with the Big Bang dogma and picked up again by a handful of Priests in the 1800s, who invented tossing natural selection into the mix Charles in fact stole it.. And all those frauds like Peking man, and Pilt down man were later proven to have priests orchestrating those as well.. The evidence is to massive to list here..You will not find this in your Universities..Just the footprints and finger prints of the men involved and their training is enough for me to know better…I am not going into depth, you do it on your own.. or don’t. I do not believe in this evolutionary hoax personally..replace it with or combine text books with this…make the science fair.. 3000 scientific definitions standing against the theory..after all we are free society why should this not be included in public study..And Atheists have the right to know Priests invented this Evolution Theory don’t they ? I think so..
    http://www.evolution-facts.org

    Now lets get off it, I just used it as an example and did not intend to change Brian’s blog direction..

    The Hailey wolf meeting was boring… 🙂

  237. avatar Ken Cole says:

    Creationism cannot be proven either. In fact it can’t even tested as a hypothesis.

  238. avatar Salle says:

    Haven’t we beaten this thread to death by now? It has been over a week and there are several other wolf topic threads to get more specific with at this time…

  239. avatar Greg says:

    Of course no establishment church 501C3 exempt status puppet can prove that Ken and they won’t..To many people rely on others to Rightly Divide Scripture instead of doing this chore themselves..The correct Bible helps, The Roman hated 1611KJV-Strongs-A.E. Knochs Literal Concordance, and I read Hebrew and Greek, some German among several other languages so I disagree, independent study proves Intelligent Design. My Perspective after many years of diligent research. 🙂 Of course a billion dollar laboratory a scientist a dish of some sand and Sea water and a man made hummingbird via evolutionary theory could bring me around, not really, Im kidding.. How about a bumble bee ?

  240. With all respect Greg, this topic is beyond the scope of what I want for this blog — religion, the nature of the universe, the meaning of life, and so forth. Our aims here are not so large.

    There are other places where people avidly discuss it, so please take it there.

  241. This thread is now closed.

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