I came across a blog posting this morning that I thought the readers of The Wildlife News would be interested in.  Bob Ferris of Cascadia Wildlands has written a great and fascinating piece about some of the more recognizable anti-wolf figures in the Northern Rockies. Some, probably most, of these people have tried to post to this blog but they have been blocked from posting comments.

Surely, just posting a link to Bob’s blog post is likely to inflame the situation but, I think, the information presented is important and of interest to our readers.

Identifying and Dealing with the Anti-wolf Forces (PG-13).
Bob Ferris- Cascadia Wildlands

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About The Author

Ken Cole

Ken Cole, Western Watershed Project’s National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) Coordinator, is a 5th generation Idahoan, an avid fly fisherman, wildlife enthusiast, and photographer. He is also serves as a member of the board of directors for Buffalo Field Campaign and as a member of the Sierra Club Grazing Core Team.

212 Responses to Cascadia Wildlands » Identifying and Dealing with the Anti-wolf Forces (PG-13)

  1. avatar Jeff N. says:

    From the article:

    ++++The Hunting Community Must Police Itself to Survive

    Roughly 6% of the US population over 16 years of age hunts. While that percentage rises sharply in rural areas where they sometimes close high schools on the opening day of deer season, it still means that 94% of the eligible population in the US does not hunt. In my mind that means that hunters—including myself—need to be very cautious that our “brand” is not compromised by yahoos like those profiled above who seem to shoot everything and think that Fair Chase and other hunter’s ethics do not apply to them or where predators are involved. Perhaps—if their goal is to continue to enjoy permission and support from the 94% non-hunters—legitimate hunting groups might want to work harder on mechanisms that focus on the quality of new hunters recruited rather than quantity.

    In truth, while these “slob hunters” and thrill killers bolster hunter numbers they likely do more harm than good. On a related note, hunters also need to deal with the very real issue of poachers and poaching—which may or may not be related to these outliers and their utter contempt for science, Fair Chase, wildlife agency employees and laws.++++

    Bingo!

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      Jeff N – thank you!
      a great post that I’ll refrence
      do you have a link to share

      • avatar JEFF E says:

        so you are going to reference the opinion of someone else’s to someone else’s opinion as…. I assume you will make that all clear…. in your reference to someones opinions of someone’s else’s opinion to……

      • avatar Jeff N. says:

        Louise,

        It’s from the Cascadia Wildlands post on this site.

        • avatar Louise Kane says:

          I tried to remove the post because i had just read the comment when running out the door, not the whole post. OK OK for some reason the edit and remove function did not work.

    • avatar Jake says:

      What am I as a hunter supposed to do about the crime of poaching beyond reporting the crime to the proper authorities? Which I have done, and an arrest took place whereupon the individual was fined and lost hunting privileges for five years. Would you please explain to me why I am responsible for the actions of criminals that poach wildlife, more so than yourself who apparently is a multiple use forest user also? It’s a crime. What next, you want us to be responsible for the litter bugs as well? I do pick up litter when I come across it. Do you drink beer Jeff? Should I come after you for all of those filthy beer cans I pick off the public land? Let me guess, us hunters need to spend more time “policing” public lands while you sit on your behind and bitch about the crime of poaching. Forget my job and other responsibility’s. You get out there and show us how it’s done ok? You’re going to hunt poachers.. Good luck. If the hunting community does not “survive” based upon your bogus analogy who’s going to catch the poachers? Now I’ve got to get back to stopping speeders on the highway so your driving privileges survive.

      • avatar sleepy says:

        (Sorry, the following comment was posted in the wrong spot and I requested deletion of the original comment)

        Perhaps all that was meant was the fact that legitimate hunters are more likely to be aware of poachers than those who don’t hunt at all. As you say, you turned in a poacher at one time. Did your awareness stem from the fact that you yourself hunt?

        I agree with you that hunters like yourself are not responsible for poachers, and if someone, hunter or not, knows of poaching they should alert the authorities.

      • avatar Jeff N. says:

        Jake,

        First of all it’s not my analogy, I clearly pasted an a excerpt from the article. It is in line with a sentiment I’ve been sharing lately, that ethical and conservation minded hunters have a perception problem and they are being defined by a-holes and extremists in the eyes of the public.

        Jake, are you from a state where the game and fish dept. places an almost zero value on wolves? Do you agree with this value? If not have you expressed your disagreement with game and fish? Are you a member of a hunting organization that values the conservation of all wildlife, and are you sick of the larger and louder groups driving the anti-predator agenda? Have you tried any grassroots pushback within the organization? Do you have any acquaintances that believe the wolf is evil and is killing “their elk”, and have you tried to explain that the wolf has a role in the ecosystem? These are a few things you could start with, after all you’re the one that has the perception problem. As your fellow ethical hunter,SB, says….think outside the box.

        Jake the mothers who started up M.A.D.D. certainly couldn’t prevent and report all drunk drivers, but with grassroots determination, their organization grew to the point where it influenced laws regarding drunk driving.

        I applaud you for turning in that poacher BTW.

        And regarding beer, yes I drink it and I too pick up litter in the woods, all the time.

        One more thing when Joe Public is cruising the forest roads and sees signs used for target practice and discovers a campsite littered with beer cans, I can assure you that their first thought is that some slob hunter bubba was responsible, not some weekend hiker.

        This is all part of the hunter perception problem and unfortunately guys like you are saddled with it, but you are also the ones who have the best opportunity to begin to change it from the inside.

        • avatar WM says:

          ++All part of the hunter perception problem.++

          No, Jeff N., it is a problem for those who have blatant disrespect for authority and government, and who show it through destruction of public property and, some by poaching. YOUR misperception is to place them as a subset of hunters, which is an incorrect catagorization. They are a subset of the former – those who have disrespect for authority, and who just happen to claim to be hunters. I really don’t expect you to understand it or advocate that distinction.

        • avatar ma'iingan says:

          “Are you a member of a hunting organization that values the conservation of all wildlife, and are you sick of the larger and louder groups driving the anti-predator agenda?”

          Most hunters don’t belong to any organization – in fact on another thread you referred to ethical hunters as being the majority – so what “larger and louder” groups are you referring to, specifically?

          The extreme wolf-haters are louder, for sure – but hardly larger. In fact they’re a small minority.

          • avatar Jeff N. says:

            Ma’

            A few examples of larger: the SFW’s, Safari Club International and the RMEF of late. Do you disagree?

            And, yes, I believe most hunters are ethical and most probably don’t belong to groups.

            Most gun owners don’t belong to the NRA but the NRA certainly drives the agenda, although that may be changing. It is possible.

          • avatar Mike says:

            ++The extreme wolf-haters are louder, for sure – but hardly larger. In fact they’re a small minority.++

            Pure fantasy.

            • avatar savebears says:

              Mike,

              Are you saying wolf haters are a majority? If you are, then you are living in a fantasy world.

              • avatar Mike says:

                There’s no question that a majority of hunters in the Rockies dislike wolves to varying degrees. I think it was about a 25% clip that wanted them wiped out completely. With that kind of hatred, it infests the community.

                “Wolf hatred” only comes from the hunting and ranching community and their social networks.

                That’s it.

              • avatar Harley says:

                Oi, here we go again. It does not ONLY come from those communities and 25% does not represent a ‘majority’. Mike Mike Mike, you’re killin me smalls!

              • avatar savebears says:

                Mike,

                If the majority of hunters in the NRM hate predators, then why in the hell are you moving here?

              • avatar Mike says:

                ++Oi, here we go again. It does not ONLY come from those communities and 25% does not represent a ‘majority’. Mike Mike Mike, you’re killin me smalls!++

                Are you high?

                25% want wolves wiped out completely. 25%. That’s not including those who just “dislike” wolves. Do you see the different levels involved here?

                As far as the source of wolf hatred, it only comes from hunters and ranchers. It does not come from Jenny Smith surfing on her iPad in Times Square.

              • avatar Harley says:

                How can you be sure mike? Have you talked to Jenny Smith lately?

                You’ve let Your own hatred blind you. Maybe someone should put on a blog descriptions of the extreme pro wolf people?

      • avatar Patty Fitzpatrick says:

        I think that we are all responsible for reporting anything we see or anyone we see that is breaking the law. Especially when someone or something is getting hurt. Poachers ruin hunting for everyone else.

  2. avatar Richie G says:

    I would like to know the numbers about real hunters and how they combat this hatred of wolves and want to exterminate all ,I hate to say like Germany wanted against a jews and Cristians and anyone who was not like them. This hits the core question anyone who is not like them.You can see many parrallels to Germany under Hilter end what is going on right now here.

  3. avatar sleepy says:

    In many cases we really haven’t advanced much from medieval myth have we?

    While long ago, the wolf personified evil in perhaps more strictly and classical religious terms–as the devil–today the strictly religious focus has given rise to the government as the focus of evil.

    Of course, the warriors against this evil–the gun extremists, the states rights extremists, the climate change deniers, the man-has-dominion-over-nature extremists–all have the quasi-religious about them. As the article says, they have profound belief in faith over reason.

  4. avatar Kristi says:

    I think that CW’s commentary is testimony to the mindset, attitude and hypocrisy of the anti-wolf crowd primarily in the Northwest/Rockies area. It’s not just wolves that they focus on, but also the broad generalizations that they create (that most logical, rational people do not see) stemming from anything they see as being related to wolves—the government, advocates, gun ownership, Fish/Wildlife/Game departments, lawsuits filed by NGO/wildlife advocacy groups, almost everything outside of themselves is perceived as a “threat” to their way of life. I too have been the target of their immature ability to express themselves in a “grown up” way, they have tried to dig up as much about me as possible. I am told the FBI in Idaho has a file on me (compliments of Chandie, one mentioned in Bob’s piece and probably very familiar to those of you from Idaho). Big deal, I hope they enjoy reading about my ordinary life. But according to Ms. Bartell I am an animal-rights activist that should be jailed upon entering Idaho. They are irrational, hysterically ignorant, mean, misplaced aggression put on wolves, cognitively (immature or stunted, and incredibly myopic

  5. avatar savebears says:

    There is only a couple of things we can do as ethical hunters, which every hunter that posts on this blog say they do, we can report the violations we see and we can publicly condemn the actions of those who are unethical and practicing criminal behavior.

    How many here, can say, they report shoplifters, speeders, and a host of other crimes you see everyday?

    • avatar sleepy says:

      As a driver or shopper, I’m not tarred with the brush of speeders or shoplifters.

      Unfortunately–and I think it’s entirely unfair, but the mindset exists–legitimate hunters are more likely to be tarred with the brush of poachers by those against all hunting.

      In addition also simply because any wide-scale poaching impinges on your ability to hunt if the game numbers go down sufficiently. With speeders or shoplifters, I can still drive or shop.

      Again, not saying it’s fair, but it is what it is.

      • avatar savebears says:

        Sleepy,

        I lost a very good friend who was a game warden in the state of WA many years ago, when I was a teenager, hunters had reported that illegal activity was going on, during Elk season, he was in the area and he was shot and killed by the individuals who were perpetuating the illegal activity.

        They of course were stopped, but we still lost a good friend forever.

    • avatar WM says:

      Seattle is now trying to identify itself as a bicycle friendly town. Mayor McGuin (we call him Mayor Bicycle) has empowered the bicycle folks immensely, and we now share roads with them more than ever before. They don’t stop at signs, they weave through traffic, sometimes wearing earphones which deprives them of an the ever-important hearing sense, some don’t wear helmets, and sometimes they will ride two abreast in packs of a dozen or so slowing traffic, in the rain and the dark which are both common here this time of year. The request has been out for bicyclists to police themselves, improve etiquette with motorists, and be more careful to avoid being the cause of accidents or being the victim of them.

      So, what is the relevance of trash talking about bicyclists? Well think about it.

      The best I have seen from the majority is the middle finger when any of the above legal infractions are called to the cyclists’ attention. At least these twits don’t have guns.

      Now apply same to the unruly hunter of the Rockhead, Chandie, just crawled out from underneath a rock, sub-species. Any bold takers on this forum? Like some here, these little trds don’t even think rationally. You won’t convince those among them who poach to stop, and you just might get yourself hurt, or your vehicle vandalized or home burned down, especially if you live in a small community. Jeff N, still doesn’t get it. He and I have gone several rounds on this topic before.

      • avatar sleepy says:

        Start handing out tickets to the bicyclists. Make them obey the law as much as motorists.

        • avatar savebears says:

          That is real easy to say Sleepy, in real life, things work a bit differently.

          • avatar Leslie says:

            I think the onus of people breaking laws applies not only to hunters. Think of dog owners and ATV users. Abusers give them all bad raps and then more laws and crackdowns. When I lived in San Francisco, some nut jobs who owned pit bulls didn’t supervise them and they killed a woman in their apt. bldg. Right after that, dogs were prohibited in many open space areas etc. We all suffered from the actions of a few.

            • avatar savebears says:

              Leslie,

              The key is, on this blog and some others, many don’t think it is the few. They like to paint with a very wide brush.

              • avatar Immer Treue says:

                SB,

                Come on, on this blog it’s the “few” that think the many.

                You’re generalizing just like Mike.

                Mike made a comment a while back that this blog site has been taken over by hunters. He included me in the mix, and I don’t even hunt, but I do support ethical hunters such as yourself. Ken put up the figures for top posters, and the top three by a long way were all none hunters: Salle, Louise, and Mike.

              • avatar Mike says:

                ++Ken put up the figures for top posters, and the top three by a long way were all none hunters: Salle, Louise, and Mike.++

                Never saw that. But even if true, the top three posters wouldn’t outpost ten hunters. Save bears and WM seem to post almost constantly.

              • avatar Immer Treue says:

                Mike,

                Read em and weep.

                Ken Cole says:

                January 3, 2013 at 8:45 am

                FYI, from our WordPress Annual Report:

                Who were they?

                These were your 5 most active commenters:

                1 Salle 1615 COMMENTS
                2 Louise Kane 1353 COMMENTS
                3 Mike 1017 COMMENTS
                4 Savebears 981 COMMENTS
                5 WM 889 COMMENTS

                We got visitors from 176 countries. Unfortunately none from Greenland.

              • avatar Mike says:

                Immer-

                That in no way proves pro-wolfers outnumber hunters here, or hunter’s posts.

                We’d need the top twenty to see that.

                Missing from that list are posts by JB, Craig, JEFF E, Rancher Bob, Ryan, and numerous others hunters who frequent this forum.

                I can’t think of too many other pro-wolf posters.

              • avatar Immer Treue says:

                Mike,

                I could be wrong, but I don’t think JB hunts. Then you have jon, Ida, Leslie, Nancy, Harley, Jeff N, Mark L. Need I go on.

              • avatar JEFF E says:

                Immer,
                I am a hunter.
                I have also been pro-wolf long, long before there was ever an internet or the current Internet heros, whatever their flavor,
                no rancor, just sayin

              • avatar JEFF E says:

                Immer,
                Sorry my last post should have been directed at $3.

              • avatar Immer Treue says:

                Jeff E,

                Not to worry. Funny, but I’ve been pro-wolf ever since i can remember. Little Red Hood, The Three Little Pigs, Aesops fables all had the opposite effect on me.

                Through my earlier years, there was very little literature available, and so few wolves alive in the USA.

            • avatar savebears says:

              Yes Immer,

              I am highly generalizing, of course just to make a point.

            • avatar savebears says:

              Mike,

              Then you need to find another more proactive blog that caters to your thinking. Bu Bye.

        • avatar WM says:

          sleepy,

          The cop has to be there to write the ticket, and bicyclists have no identification tags; similarly, the warden has to be there to write up the poaching infraction, but where there is residual evidence it can be investigated or done later, but there is alot of poaching that likely goes undiscovered because of the nature of rural lands and few law enforcement officers, and alot of times the inability to identify the bad guy.

      • avatar Immer Treue says:

        WM,

        As one who has cycled competitively, I have spent much time on the roads. The laws of physics will catch up with those who flaunt traffic safety, while cycling. That said, while following the rules of cycling, I have been intentionally run off the road twice, and been hit with a slurpy or some such iced drink. I always have that sphincter pucker when approached from behind by a vehicle. Is he/she: sleepy; drunk; texting; on a cell phone…..

        The boorish behavior of aforesaid cyclists do give good cyclists a bad name, just as poachers ….

        Comparing a cyclist to a wolf hater is a stretch. Cyclist makes a mistake, or is in the wrong place at the wrong time, said cyclist gets killed. If no witnesses to event, almost like SSS.

        Why don’t we keep it as close to the topic as possible without outlandish analogies.

        • avatar WM says:

          Immer,

          It is the comparison of the bad behavior and the task of seeking compliance with law which are important and extremely relevant and on point with the topic.

          And, yeah there are some inconsiderate auto drivers out there to, that are just as culpable and mean, just looking to tip over or tag a cyclist. I have been hit in the back with a beer bottle while running. Now think of the velocity of that projectile being thrown from a car while doing 35-40 mph in the same direction.

          • avatar savebears says:

            What is really sad, is those that are pro wolf, pro conservation, pro wildlife, seem to think they are better, what they don’t realize? Ethical hunters are their friends, we may not agree on everything, but we are out there when criminals are active and we are the ones that are calling the tip lines.

            • avatar Immer Treue says:

              SB,

              I’ve tried to make that point a number of times at TWN. Why would anybody want to alienate the hunters like you, WM, Elk and others on this site? You folks are the very people who should be embraced in comraderie, because ultimately, we all want the same thing.

              • avatar Louise Kane says:

                Immer I almost always agree with everything you write two points, SB is a hunter and was also a top poster. Ok so thats out of the way. I think non hunters would feel more like “we all want the same thing” if some of the hunters or groups representing them actually advocated for a change in the status quo, especially when it comes to predators. Jeff N made some good points.

            • avatar Rancher Bob says:

              SB
              Do you think one could take the extreme pro (fill in the blank) side and write a article painting all pro people just as Bob and George are painting hunters?

            • avatar Immer Treue says:

              Louise,

              You and SAvebears spend so much time arguing about your differences, that you are unable to converse about your similarities. If I were to cite an example of how divide and conquer works, I’d point to the dialogue between the both of you.

              Don’t get defensive about my comment, because it’s really a compliment to the both of you. You both have passion, and take wildlife issues to heart. I don’t understand the animosity that flares up at times.

              One of our first exchanges was in regard to a comment I made about Nabeki. We bantered for a while about many things, David Mech comments in particular. I’ve used the cliché eating our own young a number of times as a way to point out that some of the bickering that goes on is counterproductive.

              We all want the same thing, but we go about it in different ways. We’ve got to recognize and accept those differences, so that we can realize our similarities, identify objectives, and move toward realistic solutions.

          • avatar Immer Treue says:

            WM,

            OK, I’ll split hairs. Bad behavior by a cyclist is to tempt joining the legions of Darwin Award winners.

            Other than the antics of some cyclists is indeed contrary to the law, comparing an errant cyclist to a poacher is just plain silly. The poacher kills, while the laws of nature and physics would predict the cyclist will meet with physical catastrophe.

      • avatar Jeff N. says:

        WM,

        Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I don’t get it.

        WM, do you think ethical hunters get unfairly lumped in with unethical hunters?

        Do you think that when a picture is posted on the Internet of a hunter/trapper posing in front of a trapped wolf standing in blood stained snow, that this hurts the perception of hunters? Or is this just my misperception?

        • avatar savebears says:

          Jeff,

          This blog is a perfect example of ethical hunters getting unfairly lumped into the bad bunch. It happens all the time by some of the posters here.

          • avatar Mike says:

            It’s easy to do when those “ethical hunters”apologize for trapping endangered species and general brutal treatment of predators.

            • avatar savebears says:

              Mike,
              You sure have a different reading comprehension than the average poster on here.

              • avatar Mike says:

                I’ll take that as a compliment, SB. You have a sincere distaste for predators. You view them as “competition” for meat for your family.

                You aren’t fooling anyone. No offense.

              • avatar Harley says:

                Michael, Don’t make me reach through this computer and ground you….

              • avatar Immer Treue says:

                … SB. You have a sincere distaste for predators. You view them as “competition” for meat for your family.

                You aren’t fooling anyone. No offense.

                Mike, you are an idiot. No anger here, just stating fact. If you want to take offense, be my guest.

                I Do Not Hunt. But… We actually had conversations and intelligent dialogue in the absence of your hunters suck droning.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Mike,

                I have never hunted predators. So how in the hell do you infer that I hate them?

              • avatar Mike says:

                Immer –

                I really don’t take offense. It’s just what you do because you let your emotion get the best of you.

              • avatar Immer Treue says:

                Mike,

                No emotion, no affect. You are irrational.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Come on Immer, he is not irrational, he is nuts!

              • avatar Immer Treue says:

                SB,

                Reminds me of a joke. I won’t go into the whole thing or the entire punch line. You’ve probably heard it before in one way, shape, form or another…

                But different body parts were talking about how bad they had it. When it got down to the “unit” that Mike so boldly accuses others of waving around, it says my closest neighbors are a couple of nuts and …

              • avatar Mike says:

                Immer and SB –

                I believe you don’t kill something unless you have to. I believe that the good must defend the helpless. That the stronger must speak out for the weaker at every opportunity.

                That’s the difference between you and I.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Okay Batman, You need to call Robin..

                Mike, you are really out there

              • avatar Mike says:

                Yes, SB, showing compassion towards living things is definitely a behavior that is “out there” to you as you slog around the NorthFork, pistol on hip, mumbling about conspiracy theories.

                I believe in kindness, and treating living things with respect, and defending the weak from cruelty, whether it’s a rogue government or a person torturing a wolf in a trap.

                When you stop thinking about yourself 24/7, you’ll begin to have such thoughts, too.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Mike,

                I don’t think about myself 24/7, I think about my family and my friends most of the time, I could really give a shit what happens to me, but I do think about those who I care about. People like you are communistic and you spend all of your time creating problems that don’t exist.

                Why are you moving to Montana?

              • avatar Mike says:

                SB –

                I may complain, but I would not want others banned. The forum wouldn’t be the same without your Pacific Ocean-sized logic grasps.

                Well, there is one poster I would like to see not post. But it’s not you, or WM, or JB, or even crazy Rancher Bob and shouty Craig. You guys just offer your opinion (no matter how misguided), and do no real damage.

              • avatar Harley says:

                And who would that be Mike?

            • avatar savebears says:

              And lets be honest Mike, you and I have spent way to much time trying to drive each other off this page.

              • avatar Mike says:

                I’ve never once come on this page with the mentality of trying to drive you away.

                I come here to have a discussion, and that’s it. I don’t desire, nor care to censor a web forum. I have more important things going on despite any complaints.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Yes you have Mike, and many here know that you have tried to stymy what others have to say.

          • avatar Mark L says:

            These complaints about being clumped into certain groups and then being split off from others reminds me of……
            Cladists!
            About as exciting too.

            • avatar Bob Ferris says:

              I thought that I was pretty clear that this was not an anti-hunting piece and that most hunters were ethical and that this phenomenon that I was describing was something quite different. How did that not come across?

              Bob Ferris

        • avatar Rancher Bob says:

          Jeff N
          That’s the problem you and others have to lump people in groups. While others of us judge people as individuals. Why that is the case I can only guess.

          • avatar Jeff N. says:

            Rancher Bob,

            You are a little late to the conversation, but I have not personally lumped anybody into any group.

            To briefly summarize, last I week I posted that hunters suffer from a a perception problem, meaning that in the eyes of the general public ethical hunters are unfairly lumped in with the unsavory element of hunters and poachers.

            I then asked what ethical hunters might be able to push back against the extremist segment, and gain the upperhand as the true voice of the hunting community.

            Then this article was posted, and a segment of it pertains to what I asked in my post last week, so the subject has been rekindled.

            But make no mistake, I have not lumped the SB’s, WM’s, Jake’s, of the world into this unethical/extremist group. So before you lump me into a certain group you might want to revisit a few of my old posts.

        • avatar Jake says:

          Jeff, when I caught the guy poaching elk I thought he was going to kill me. I looked down the barrel of a .308 and knew I’d had it. He then put a round in the ground at my feet. I was terrified. He was so sure he had intimidated me enough, he still took the elk home. I called ISP as soon as I was home. They also found a poached beef. I’ve looked over my shoulder ever since. He knows me. I don’t understand what you’d have the ethical hunters do. We’re just private citizens.

          • avatar savebears says:

            Jake,

            Many don’t understand the extreme’s that criminals will go to.

          • avatar Jeff N. says:

            Really SB? Many don’t understand the extremes that criminals will go to? You are a funny one.

            • avatar savebears says:

              Please explain Jeff?

              Poachers are criminals and many will kill more than just wildlife, so please explain what you are talking about?

              I will add, I carry my .40 on my hip most of the time and it is not because of hunters.

              • avatar Jeff N. says:

                SB,

                We are reminded on a daily basis the extremes criminals will go to. Give it a rest.

                A few years ago a few hunters in WI were gunned down by someone who was using their tree-stand. He got pissed because they told him to get the f@ck out of it. Pretty extreme.

                Trust me SB, most of s get it.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Jeff,

                I will never give it a rest, you don’t.

                When was the last time someone called you and told you, that they were going to kill you? When was the last time you looked down a gun barrel pointed at you?

          • avatar Jeff N. says:

            Jake,

            That is some scary shit, and what you did took huge balls.

            In my response to you above I asked you a few questions that I felt could be starting steps, albeit small ones. And I’m not just focusing on poaching, I think my previous posts have dealt with unfair perceptions and certainly poaching is a big part of it but not all of it.

            I’ve never claimed to have the answers, rather I asked you, a hunter, how you might be able to effect change from the inside and I was surprised at how defensive some of the responses were.

            • avatar Jake says:

              From the inside of where? I’m not personally affiliated with any group. My friends don’t listen to me anymore than your friends listen to you. Most of these conversations where I read at hunting sites and here are the same, divided, argumentative. Most hunters I know are for management of all wildlife, and they’re to busy with working and family to spend time reading web pages. The total we want the wolves gone people are silly and in the minority. The wolves will never be gone.

            • avatar Jeff N. says:

              I need to rephrase something. I’ve asked what I thought ethical hunters can do from the “inside” to help with how they are perceived by the public.

              The word “inside” gives the impression that they are part of some organized group where bad and good elements could co-mingle. But as it has been pointed out by Ma’ and Jake, most hunters are just individuals who don’t belong to a group/club.

              My phrasing should have been: from a hunter’s perspective, how might they be able to effect change…..

              • avatar savebears says:

                Jeff,

                We report, we testify and we condemn illegal activity and extremism. We do everything that we can legally do to stop this.

          • avatar rork says:

            I’ve been scared twice thanks to poachers. #1 had rifle over the roof of his car, pointing at no-hunting land (close to buildings), wearing no orange, in an area illegal for rifles (shotgun or muzzleload only in southern-most MI) and out of season for gun-shooting of deer anyway. I passed by to go climb a tree with my bow. He followed me for about 30 meters, gun in hand, complaining that I was getting out rather late in the day. I was scared cause I feared he was mentally not quite right. #2 was two guys in a truck with giant lights after dark on a big field. I thought they were officers checking me out when they rolled up to me. I was dragging a doe out, and was glad a friend was with me. They engaged in conversion trying to get me to agree that our DNR officers were slime (and too many were women or ethnic minorities – sheesh) – perhaps a test, but I didn’t agree (the fact was the local rangers were both white males, with families among the first settlers of our area, and outstanding citizens).
            I have reported several other poachers besides these. Poaching deer has gotten less common near me, perhaps cause deer are more abundant now, and tags are easy to get and cheap.

            I speak out and write in favor of wolves, calmly, but not much on hunting blogs – the quality of discussion is so bad I just don’t want to expend the energy. I do write my state game managers, and try to have the letters be substantial. I sometimes get replies (but more often about fish or deer management, where I get to debate population genetics issues and it’s more obvious I might be worth talking too).

            • avatar Immer Treue says:

              Rork,
              Min regard to your women and minorities in the DNR quote.

              From Jim Beers, one of the champions of the antis. ” In the 1970s and 1980s, they were given for support of the Secretary’s initiatives, and for assuring that 20% of hires, 15% of promotions are given to women and minorities. These women were hired not because they had an interest in wildlife, but because they attended minority colleges. They were like GEICO candidates. Now THEY are doing the hiring, etc. Now they’re saying there shouldn’t be small towns, timber harvest, or hunting.”

              • avatar Richie G says:

                To sb ; Maybe we are on a different page if you think I am trying to create a conspiracy your wrong. Why can’t an antenna pick up two different signals with a shift counter and a shift register. You think subs can only track one target with sonar,you were in the millatary you tell me Once I had a professor “part Time” who worked for grumman, and he said I can’t give details but we track in the gulf war by aircraft of all the movements on the ground. He would not tell any more and that was in your war the gulf.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Richie,

                My war and military history has nothing to do with this, we are talking about what it takes to track a GPS collared animal, with the way our collars were set for bears, yes, you might stumble upon the frequency to the collar, but the animal is not going to be were your ping show because of the time interval between pings.

      • avatar Mike says:

        Bikers should have the right of way. They’re doing everything right:

        1. No emissions.
        2. Good exercise, which keeps the cost of health care down for everyone.

        Sounds like a bit of jealousy on your part.

    • avatar Nancy says:

      “How many here, can say, they report shoplifters, speeders, and a host of other crimes you see everyday?”

      LOL SB!

      Last summer I mentioned to a county mountie that he could probably fill his quota in speeding tickets for the month, just by sitting on my road for a few days. His response? “Hell, I’d be ticketing mostly locals and I wouldn’t wanna piss them off”

  6. avatar Leslie says:

    Question: Now back at home, I keep hearing from this person or that that there are websites where one can obtain the coordinates of the GPS collars–one person told me Cabelas had it (doubtful), another person told me there was an actual website that listed them. Anyone know about this? This is info from wolf friendly people, not wolf-haters so don’t know if it’s true or not.

    • avatar SAP says:

      Leslie, I’ve heard/read the same thing. I can’t find any evidence that it’s true. State & federal wolf biologists say it’s not.

      It used to be fairly common to give livestock owners shoot-on-sight permits after wolf predation. Along with the permit, the agencies would loan them a telemetry receiver and give them the frequencies of collared wolves that were likely to be involved. Usually amounted to 2 or 3 frequencies. So, there may be some livestock owners out there who have active frequencies.

      As to Cabela’s: search their website. I did. They sell tracking collars for hunting dogs (bird dogs and hounds mostly). A friend had a rogue Karelian who would run literally to the next county sometimes, so she put one of these collars on him so she could find him if he got loose. Some of the newer ones do in fact store GPS data of the dog’s movements.

      Far as I can tell, the receivers that Cabela’s sells are all related to these dog collars. Could someone use such a receiver to track wolves? Maybe. But not likely, since it’s not likely that they know the frequency for any given wolf. Is it possible to stumble on frequencies through dumb luck or trial-&-error? Yes, it’s possible, but highly unlikely. The only way you’d actually know you’d punched in the right frequency would be when you got a ping back — which means that you’d have to happen to be in range of the collar when you were punching in random numbers.

      Even with frequencies, that doesn’t guarantee that a shooter will catch a wolf in the open, within rifle range (say 300 yards + -), and be able to make an effective shot.

      • avatar Richie G says:

        On tracking wolves with telemetry dog collars,if some was really into electronics,I had a partner for a communications class and he knew more than the teacher especilaay in the microprocessor lab. It might be possible to add a ring counter to shift to different frequencies, maybe an a/d converter is needed I am not sure. But it’s all up in the satellites.

        • avatar Bob Ferris says:

          The frequencies are generally different.

          • avatar Richie G says:

            To Bob Ferris yes but with a ring counter and a shift register,could not someone incorporate these frequencies,would going from a khtz signal to a mhertz or ghertz signal be that diffcult? I been out of this a while but I know in sonic meters used for flow they ca slu to a doppler effect to a transit signal depending on the density of the flow.

            • avatar Bob Ferris says:

              My Yagi antenna days are long past as well but you could not do this during my days. Things could have changed. Perhaps there is an i-Phone app at this point. But that does not deal with GPS collars that do not send a continuous signal. The interesting thing a collars and study animals is that even with the collars–if you are tracking on foot–you rarely see the animals. I know this is particularly true with mountain lions and probably less so with wolves.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Bob,

                There are a lot of people around that think that hunters are investing thousands of dollars and spending numerous hours tracking so they can take one wolf, investment vs. return just does not add up.

        • avatar savebears says:

          Richie,

          The GPS collars do not broadcast constantly, they broadcast as set intervals, so they can track where the animal travels, Trying to track wolves or bears for hunting purposes using GPS would not be practical.

  7. avatar Kristi says:

    I think that CW’s commentary is testimony to the mindset, attitude and hypocrisy of the anti-wolf crowd primarily in the Northwest/Rockies area. It’s not just wolves that they focus on, but also the broad generalizations that they create in their minds, stemming from anything they see as being related to wolves—the government, advocates, gun ownership, Fish/Wildlife/Game departments, lawsuits filed by NGO/wildlife advocacy groups, almost everything outside of themselves is perceived as a “threat” to their way of life. I too have been the target of their immature ability to express themselves in a grown up way, they have tried to dig up as much about me as possible. I am told the FBI in Idaho has a file on me (compliments of Chandie, one mentioned in Bob’s piece and probably very familiar to those of you from Idaho). Big deal, I hope they enjoy reading about my ordinary life. But according to Ms. Bartell I am an animal-rights activist that should be jailed upon entering Idaho. All this fuss because I disagree with her and her cohorts about wolves. Because I appreciate the wolves’ place in the ecosystem, because I think that wolves have been relentlessly and hatefully persecuted through political BS and rhetoric spewed from hunting and trapping organizations that want an ungulate utopia for their members; because I believe in science, in facts, in documentation, in proof, not in hysterics and ignorance and hate; because I trust educated people and studies moreso than myths and fairy tales that began in the 1800’s and continue today.
    I have seen how they spoke to Bob in that anti-wolf/pro-hunter blog which inspired him to write this article, they were relentless in trying to discredit him and his integrity, his education, his life experiences, his work—but they failed even though they tried VERY hard. Nothing and nobody is as good as they are—they know more, they are smarter, they are better hunters, better stewards of the land, contribute more than anybody else…such good, fine people they are. They peruse Ralph’s blog and copy/paste comments made by their “enemies” (Chandie and Bill are experts at this) and then circulate them in their little anti-wolf groups on Facebook and in the Skinny Moose blog—which is run by someone who lives in FL and ME–nowhere near wolves, which is another complaint of theirs—that if you don’t live “here” you don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to wolves, yet he is accepted and heralded by the anti-wolf crowd. Well, at least by those who read and comment on that blog. The amount of spare time those people have is rather amazing. I am sure that these words of mine will be showing up on anti-wolf pages on Facebook and I will be attacked, it’s their usual M.O. That’s what they do.
    I am glad that Bob wrote that blog entry and exposed these people for what they do and how they do it. Oh, that’s another thing…the anti-wolf proponents like to “expose” people. I’ve been told by Chandie that I’ve been “exposed”. As to what I have been exposed as, I have no idea. I’ve also been told I’m a fake and a fraud. I also have no idea what they think I am trying to be, that I am not a real person? If they like real things, then they should take a look at real life, not their irrational, hysterically ignorant view of life.

    • avatar Harley says:

      Some of the very strong reasons why I do Not post my real name.

      • avatar savebears says:

        Oh come on Harley, I have had many demand that I post my real name(which I did a couple of weeks ago) they seem to think it really means something.

        • avatar Harley says:

          Oh hell no my friend. It really bothers me when people go after other people and plaster all their information up on the internet. I guard my privacy like a momma bear! I think there is a total of like 3 people who know my real name and information.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      Kristi another tactic they use is to shut down wolf advocates face book pages by using lies about the owner of the page. They also send death threats and spread horrible images to cause anxiety and stress to people who care about the animals. They are very nasty people. Think about putting up a page to spread hate and lies about an animal, or to get people riled up to kill and torture those animals. Its so sick and twisted. Beyond belief that this is what people choose to make of their very limited time here. To push for killing wild animals.

      • avatar Harley says:

        Louise,

        I’ve had discussions with some of the people on that blog. And some are kinda being painted with the wrong color. Greg is not all about killing wolves. He’s about management. Management does not equal killing wolves. But because he’s about management, he’s a wolf hater/killer. We really gotta stop this insanity. Because I did not support Obama in this last election, I was labeled as homophobic and wanting women to get abortions in back alleys. Such insanity! This whole, if you aren’t for us, you are evil…it’s got to stop, on both sides.

        • avatar jon says:

          Wrong, management and killing are one in the same Harley.

          • avatar Harley says:

            Let me make a correction than Jon. Greg is not about annihilating all the wolves. He’s about managing the numbers. I’ve asked him point blank. He has NOTHING against wolves. Maybe everyone else lol but not against the wolves. I can’t say that about all the people over there though.

      • avatar savebears says:

        Hmm, Louise sounds like some of the extremists that have called me in the past and threatened to kill me.

        If the pro side, thinks they are the only ones that gets threats, then you are mistaken, I am happily watching how things proceed on the ALF affiliate that turned her self in a few weeks ago in Washington, I hope she does a very long time in jail.

  8. avatar Immer Treue says:

    Back to the “haters”.

    I’ve ventured over to the aforementioned B cubed a number of times. I’m not a fence sitter on the wolf issue, so going there can be like venturing into the lions den. That said, both Tom Remmington and Rattler Rider (GF) have given me, at times, thoughtful responses, where friendly dialogue appear possible, then the posse, or “guests” come in, and it’s all over.

    Could say a lot, but I would rather stay positive about what I say. That’s what makes The Wildlife News such a great blog. Anyone of us, can argue with anyone else here, and we’ve all seen it get crazy at times. But we remain civil, and return to constructive dialogue with one another.

    This is a site where all wildlife, and the land in which they live is appreciated.

    • avatar Harley says:

      Oh my, I remember the times you would venture into the lion’s den and it certainly wasn’t pretty! Glad you had the courage though.

  9. avatar Larry Keeney says:

    Changing the anti-governmentals, the wolf haters and sagebrush burners is like changing the cycle of the tides. Please donate your hard earned dollars to the organizations that present educated and lawfully binding arguments in behalf of ecosystems all across this country like WWP, Earth Justice or Defenders of Wildlife. There is nothing sweeter than the sound of a federal judicial gavel coming down on the side of wildlife. It also just infuriates the bottom feeders. Each dollar we donate helps bring forth successful soft spoken and well educated arguments against those that will have nothing to do with education.

  10. avatar Ida Lupine says:

    Just wow. I am trying to understand all of this hatefulness. Just how did our esteemed leaders in Washington let this all happen.

  11. avatar Bob Ferris says:

    There seems to be some confusion about my comments about poaching. Statistics I have seen indicate that just as much game is poached as is hunted and that poaching in the US is a $200 million industry. As to doing more about it, I was not thinking about vigilantism but rather acknowledging the problem more publicly, getting funds for game agencies for enforcement and having them expand programs such as deer, elk or moose decoys that allow game wardens to nail out of season hunters and poachers. According to the WDFW the main deterrent to moose recovery in eastern Washington is poaching. This seems like something we could all get behind and a more endeavor that bashing wolves because we cannot or will not act on other factors with greater impact.

  12. avatar Mike says:

    Be kind and compassionate. Don’t kill stuff unless you have to.

    That’s it. Almost all of the arguments on this site arise from differences in that paragraph.

    How do you want to go out? As the guy who jabbed wooden poles at trapped racoons and stomped their heads, or the guy who let them be?

    Your call.

  13. avatar Richie G says:

    O.K. I have to put my two cent in here. First I think any kind of trapping is cruel,especially if a hunter can wait 24 or 48 hours to checked his traps,while the animal suffers. Now Louise said once,I think it was Louise said her dog caught a fox in a trap and her dog rip it into pieces, that sucks for the fox horrible. Second When I was in Maine, millinocket at dinner speaking to a local, he stated we want no environmental people here introducing wolves. I guess out west felt the same way,that is what I believe. Yes a generalization but that is my feeling.Third seems like ranchers feel horses,pigs dogs are just things, tools, like a hammer to a carpenter its part of nature to make them eat and live,sounds right,so they get desensitized, this is their life. Third not to pick on sb because he is a nice guy,but you did write once in Alaska you hunted grizzly with a bow and arrow that hit me funny,so was that fun doing it in Alaska, or was the bear bigger more of a challange ,or what I just don’t get it , why bring it up.It’s like me saying I threw a football better than Phil Simms in Giant Stadium. Yes I believe most western people think wolves were pushed on them not all just most grass roots people. Not the nature people or the biologist,but the home town ranchers.I love them all bobcats, mountain lions, bears, wolves, coyotes and mountain goats etc. I think that is what makes the west special not the cows on the land,we have them here, new york state,New England all over the east. What makes us special are the OCEAN ANIMALS.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      Hi Richie,
      I am not sure if you are speaking about me Louise K or Louise W, But my dog never caught a fox in a trap…I’d never allow that to happen.

      • avatar Richie G says:

        To Louise Kane;I mean no disrespect it was about a trapper,neighbor who seen small tracks in the snow and his traps were gone and he kind of pointed the finger at her. The traps were by a river upstream from a park.See all this means to me like I said before many ranchers and roots people out west think of animals as tools to live,/like an electrician uses a volt amp meter for his tools. Believe me my favorite college football team are the Oregon Ducks I love it out their.Just don’t take to the attitudes of most of the people out their,with no disrespect,it’s not me tracking bear to kill. I would track them to take a picture with a camera.

  14. avatar Louise Kane says:

    http://wiwildlifeethic.org/2013/01/16/gun-nuts-and-sadists-its-time-to-stand-up-to-the-bullies/
    I’m posting this link because it relates directly to the discussion here, at least the part about the freaks that brag about killing wolves and persecuting predators. The e mail from the woman with the image of the dead coyote is shocking both in that someone would write this and that someone would do this legally. Its really time to address the notion that people (hunters or not) can access weapons and then wage war on predators and other wildlife. a sick twisted perverse war. Its not all about hunters or non hunters its about working to protect wildlife from the sick bastards who abuse them and the shitty laws that don’t afford adequate protection from abuse. I think whether you consider these people a fringe group or not they represent a real and immense threat.

    • avatar jon says:

      You see pictures like that and it’s no wonder why a lot of people dislike hunters.

      • avatar Richie G. says:

        Jon that article about the coyote who was killed with babies,words can’t explain what I feel I wrote back with my name and state,did not go overboard,but wanted to explain,kids in New Jersey go through guns drills now and are afraid,afraid to death. I tried to explain,the economy is bad for all is this part of the problem. I just tried to reach out what was she thinking, words can’t explain. Thank you for the article I think?”

  15. avatar Richie G says:

    They have signs on our garden state pky, giving out the plate number of a reckless driver,and they want you to call a number if you spot the driver is that enough. Plus they have camera’s on high volume intersection on red lights. Being they do not know who is driving they send the ticket to the persons house from the plate number to pay the ticket in New York and New Jersey. In fact New Jersey is in court because their signal are faster green to red so the township could get more money.

  16. avatar Richie G says:

    So SB it would be an intermittent problem ,one time you see your dog cause you know his frequency and the othe time another frequenct hits, remember this is ni millie seconds. Just a guess would be difficult,but they possibly could both be tracked with a beep for both. Hey guys just a guess but maybe that is what is on the market and people can’t relate to it,so it isn’t popular.

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      I think if someone were determined enough (and we know they are!) it could be done, and probably has been. Or they could find out any number of ways.

      • avatar savebears says:

        I have been involved in tracking Grizzly bears, specifically one that traveled Flathead lake last summer, the intervals were not in minutes but hours, if a hunter was trying to track the GPS signal, he may well be able to receive it, but the animal would normally be quite a ways from where the tracking ping would show. It would involve a lot of time as well as a sizable investment to try and track a collared animal with GPS.

  17. avatar Richie G says:

    S.B. I get your point but it can’t be designed different or the antenna way can’t have shift registers and ring counters to pick up two signals.

  18. avatar Richie G says:

    To IDA; Thanks

  19. avatar Immer Treue says:

    Here was one from BBB

    http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2011/09/18/how-to-take-out-15-wolves-with-one-shot/

    Even Mr Remmington had trouble with the decision to post it or not. Wolf? Coyote? Photoshopped? Who knows

    I think Tom, he’s dumb as a fox,( this is complimentary) posts topics every once in a while for affect, to draw others in. Even though his philosophies are pretty well grounded, he likes to stir the pot every once in a while for the purpose of debate. Many of the comments in this particular article support the theme of Bob Ferris thread.

    • avatar DLB says:

      I disagree with you on this, Immer.

      Since his blog is almost entirely unmoderated, people can rant about any kind of craziness that crosses their mind. Commentors are so insulting and intolerant that there are only a few people who even bother.

      Compare that blog to one like Hunt Washington and tell me he’s as dumb as a fox.

      • avatar Immer Treue says:

        DLB

        “Since his blog is almost entirely unmoderated, people can rant about any kind of craziness that crosses their mind. Commentors are so insulting and intolerant that there are only a few people who even bother.”

        I agree with you, about 99%. Conversation/ let alone Debate of any type is all but futile. I’ve tried a few times, and Harley (not to put you on the spot) can attest to what happened the last time.

        Things can get pretty slow and redundant at BBB, and Tom puts little nuggets like that in there every once in a while. You be the judge, is it bait for the carnage of insult you correctly identify, or is it his way of trying to get some other commenters over there, regardless if he disagrees with them?

        • avatar Harley says:

          It really was not pretty…

          • avatar jon says:

            Harley posts more on here than the bbb blog. You came to your senses and realized this blog is 100 times better than the bbb blog. The only two commenters in the bbb blog seem to be Chandie and Greg Farber. They post on there all day long.

            • avatar Immer Treue says:

              Jon,

              You can’t speak like that for other folks. Through, communication with Harley, she has a unique ability to get along with just about anybody.

              • avatar Barb Rupers says:

                Immer,
                I agree even though Harley suggested that Tom Remington should kick me off his blog. She has a very likeable persona in her writen communications.

              • avatar Harley says:

                Oh man, your memory is long Barb! Let’s just say one of these days I’d love to communicate with you via email so we could have a real conversation. I think it would be very enlightening. And I do mean that in a very sincere way.

              • avatar Barb Rupers says:

                Harley, You posted your email address at one time (can’t remember if it was here, there or where); I saved it since I had so many thoughts I would have liked to send but didn’t because of the awaiting “audience”. I think those emails still reside in my two old computers.

                Perhaps we could allow The Wildlife News to exchange email addresses.

              • avatar Harley says:

                I would like that. I’m pretty sure the one I put out to the public doesn’t exist anymore but the people here have my permission to give you the one linked to this account.

            • avatar Harley says:

              Jon,

              I know this is going to be very difficult to comprehend, but I did learn quite a bit at the other blog. I have made a few good friends over there as well. I still look in at the other blog, but now I’m trying to learn a few things over here too. It’s not that I think this blog is ‘way better’ than the other one. Each does have something unique to offer me.

              • avatar Harley says:

                And one more thing Jon. I have a problem with extremes on either side of the argument. The extremes make me very nervous and very uncomfortable and on occasion piss me off.

        • avatar jon says:

          That blog is a joke. The people over there are constantly talking about the people who post over here. They bad mouth Bob Ferris, Ralph, sb, and you immer. This blog gets much more traffic.

          • avatar savebears says:

            Heck Jon,

            I even get emailed by some on that blog, I have commented on their blog before and got demolished, but being bad mouthed in nothing new for me, heck I get bad mouthed on this blog all the time to.

        • avatar DLB says:

          Immer,

          I’m a fairly open-minded guy and post on some forums where I’m not terribly popular, but there is absolutely nothing to be gained by posting on that blog. I saw once where you gave it a try, but that’s not the place for that kind of effort. I definitely give you kudos for taking a crack at it, though.

          • avatar Immer Treue says:

            DLB

            I’m with you. I tried. Let’s just say I was surprised a bit by some out reach that occurred. But I agree with you. It’s not that you win or lose, you get buried beneath a pile of innuendo, name calling, and threats of defamation in terms of where one works, as a teacher.

            Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

            • avatar JEFF E says:

              Lets not forget the fun times on the old NEWWEST blog. All of those mentioned on this thread plus more would attempt to shout down anyone that did not have an irrational hatred of wolves.

              There was even a period of time that you could be on one site watching them coach each other on what to say and then watch it be posted on NEWWEST. Unfortunately that curiosity was pointed out on this site by an idiot so that went away.

              As far as the ppp blog ,I just cannot dumb myself down enough to go there anymore. No thanks.

              Then even before that there was a site called “wolfcrossing” they became so paranoid they did not even let themselves post last I checked, a few years ago. Some of that crowd would also wander thru NEWWEST.
              I remember that the owner of wolfcrossing was named Laura(?)who was also president of the cattlemen’s association in New Mexico but would never admit that on NEWWEST.
              None of them with enough facts to fill a thimble, only raging cases of blog envy.

              • avatar DLB says:

                ++Then even before that there was a site called “wolfcrossing” they became so paranoid they did not even let themselves post last I checked, a few years ago. Some of that crowd would also wander thru NEWWEST.++

                LOL…You have to follow this issue for a while to understand just how funny that comment was. I blurted out laughing when I read it and then failed in an attempt to explain the humor to my wife when she asked me why I was laughing.

                I can just imagine the private emails flying back and forth saying, “It’s no longer safe to post – they are monitoring us – the UN is coming – this guy looked at me funny in the check-out line”

                I’d never been to that site, but saw this article listed:

                “Comment on Proximity is the problem. Mexican wolf encounters with children impacted on the rise. by admin”

                Enthralling……

              • avatar JEFF E says:

                that’s a special group down there..

                there was actually one that posted here for a bit…two jump(something), had to do with a rodeo career. I am sure he was hazed back into the herd.

                Another that I had some interaction wit on NEWWEST was, I believe, posting under the name “threetwigs”. that poster tried to use bluff and bluster…..

              • avatar JEFF E says:

                Catron county also built cages at bus stops…for there children…

            • avatar Barb Rupers says:

              While checking in on the bbb I found the following about the loss of three hounds by a cougar hunter in Montana. The story is in the Missoulian and a photo of the dead dogs is from the bbb story. My reason for posting the picture is because it doesn’t look like they were killed by a predator, no visible damage externally nor blood on the fur. Does any one else have an opinion regarding the dogs?

              http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/lion-hunter-says-wolves-killed-dogs-in-ninemile/article_3c6867c0-5e9b-11e2-a48b-0019bb2963f4.html
              http://mediacdn.disqus.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/418/5728/original.jpg

              • avatar Harley says:

                I think someone posted this, with the pictures on the ‘Have you come across any interesting news’ thread. I think there were a few references to this actually. I think one of the pictures showed that one dog had a wound on it’s side but I didn’t see too much more myself. I know the owners did move the dogs, maybe this was taken after they were moved? Still, you would think there would be some blood or something.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Barb,

                Death and blood do not always exclusively go together.

                I had two deer killed on my property last spring by a Mt. Lion and there was very little sign of blood or damage to the deer.

      • avatar jon says:

        Hunting washington is not as bad as the bbb blog, but any non-hunter that reads hunting washington specifically the wolf forum will find that 99% of the comments about wolves are very much anti-wolf. The guy who runs the bbb blog hates wolves and he hates coyotes just as much.

        • avatar savebears says:

          When are you guys going to start combating this stuff, anyone can start up a blog. Jon, Louise, Salle, you all have the ability to set up pro blogs and hit them tit for tat, why are you not doing it?

          • avatar jon says:

            I have no interest in setting up a blog sb. This blog is fine.

            • avatar savebears says:

              Jon,

              That is fine, but here you are preaching to the Choir, you are not doing anything proactive to combat those you bitch about. You choose to concentrate your effort here, but there is strength in numbers, that is why you see the anti side gaining ground.

              • avatar jon says:

                It’s a waste of time. Setting up a blog is not going to change the minds of hunters who hold hostile feelings towards wolves and other predators that they don’t like.

              • avatar savebears says:

                I think I am going to start a new blog and call it Blog Wars, then we could have several different topic areas, covering Guns to wildlife, Toilet paper to video games!

                Boy that one could be fun!

              • avatar savebears says:

                Jon,

                Obviously it is not a waste of time, the anti’s are winning at this time.

                So you are saying this blog that Ralph set up is a waste of time? I am sure Ralph appreciates that!

                If it is a waste of time, why do you post on this blog so much?

              • avatar jon says:

                Ralph has a good thing going with this blog. How are the antis winning? sb, I like this blog and I will post on it as much as I like just like you do. Just because I think me creating a blog would be a waste of time, doesn’t mean that I don’t support commenting or posting on other people’s blogs that I like.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Jon,

                You have to be kidding, how are they winning? Lets see, trapping, unlimited quota’s, extended seasons, Shoot on sight predator zones, delisted in Wyoming, Idaho proposing to pay trappers, do I need to go on? Oh, Ken in charge of the DOI, Congressional riders to delist, how much more should I write?

                Jon,

                They are getting everything they want!

              • avatar DLB says:

                This blog is great. If Ralph posted an said he needed money to keep it going, I’d be the first in line to cut him a check.

              • avatar jon says:

                Ken is leaving sb and as far as the things you have mentioned, hunters are claiming these things are not putting a dent in the wolf population. In their world, winning would be zero wolves, so clearly they lost.

              • avatar jon says:

                I would as well DLM. This is my favorite blog.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Jon,

                That is right, they want zero wolves and guess what they are getting all of the tools to accomplish that, that is not a loss in their column, that is a win.

                I don’t know what you are talking about that Ken is leaving, I didn’t mention anything about Ken.

                I would also financially support Ralph if he said he needed it.

              • avatar jon says:

                sb,

                http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/16/politics/salazar-resigning/index.html

                You spend most of your time on the computer all day, I thought you would have read about this.

              • avatar jon says:

                You didn’t mention anything about Ken?
                You said Ken is in charge at the DOI. Do you proofread your comments sb?

              • avatar savebears says:

                Jon,

                We talked about him leaving a few days ago, I am well aware of Salazar leaving his position, what is your point?

                Yes, I have spent most of my day on various websites and have had a couple of video conferences today about my next contract, which I hope to close in the next couple of weeks.

                As I said a while ago, I am between contracts right now, so I have lots of time to be on the internet.

              • avatar jon says:

                The ultimate goal of some hunters is to have zero wolves. This will never happen, so the antis as you like to call them sb are not winning.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Ok, Jon, you and I are talking about the same Ken, I call Salazar Ken, so my mistake, I thought you were talking about Ken who moderates this blog, but I have been aware of Salazar leaving his post at DOI for a while now. I spoke to him last month when I was in DC

              • avatar jon says:

                You said that the antis are winning because Ken is in charge of the DOI. He is leaving, so why bring this up? Hopefully the next DOI will be much better than cowboy Kenny.

              • avatar savebears says:

                I don’t know Jon,

                Some of the names being floated, are not going to be any better than Salazar..

            • avatar jon says:

              You mentioned Ken being DOI. Why would you think I was talking about another Ken? Ken Salazar is leaving DOI, so I don’t see how the antis are winning if he’s leaving.

              • avatar jon says:

                I guess one could make the argument now that the pro-wildlife advocates are winning because Ken Salazar is leaving.

              • avatar savebears says:

                You really think, that because he is leaving that is a win? Remember you have two states delisted and no judicial review, so those states are going to remain delisted unless they drop below a certain level

              • avatar savebears says:

                Also, nothing is going to happen fast, just because Salazar leaves, things will continue on pretty much status quo for the time being.

              • avatar savebears says:

                Anyway,

                I am going to go get some dinner, its been fun Jon.

              • avatar Immer Treue says:

                JHC,

                Which one of you is Abbott and which one of you is Costello?

          • avatar Louise Kane says:

            I don’t want to get dragged into worthless exchanges about setting up blogs so please leave me out of that. again not taking bait-

            • avatar savebears says:

              Christ Louise,

              You are part of this, and actually you are one of the few, I do respect, despite my disagreements with you, I know you are being proactive instead of reactive.

              Don’t feel singled out, many times my name is brought up in subjects I am not even contributing to..

              What you deem worthless, is worth a lot to others.

        • avatar DLB says:

          Jon,

          You are correct that the individual who runs Hunt WA is anti-wolf, but I’ll take him anyday over some of the cretins from Idaho & Montana we know so well.

          • avatar jon says:

            I was talking about the bbb blog. I don’t know who runs hunt wa. As to the guy who runs bbb blog, based on his comments, yes, it’s obvious that he hates wolves very much.

    • avatar Harley says:

      I HATED that picture. Made me sick to my stomach.

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      That is one sick photo. If it is even real. You’ve got to feel sorry for people like these, because someday they will be humbled.

  20. avatar Richie G says:

    opps ring counter

  21. avatar Richie G says:

    O.K. SB I agree it’s not praticle but this conversation started with a dog chasing a wolf, so a device can pick up both,far away but still can be done.With so much hatred going around,and P.S. I don’t mean you,hunters who would like their dogs to catch a wolf this would not be impossible,forget about the cost, when hatred enters,everything else goes out the door.I mentioned the professor, because this was years ago,why can’t the general public get it now, and if it offended you bringing up the war and you in the same sentence I am sorry.

    • avatar savebears says:

      I am not offended Richie, it just didn’t apply in this particular situation, the technology has advance so far beyond what we were using in the first gulf war, it is amazing, one of my nephews works for a military contractor, his job is to design drones, the ones we are currently using in the Middle East, you would be amazed as what we can now do. I love going through his work place, it is like going to space.

  22. avatar Richie G says:

    opps again practial sorry

  23. avatar Richie G says:

    P.S. SB at least the bear had a chance to get away good for the bear.

  24. avatar Richie G says:

    I believe that sb I just hope that it never gets to animals,but aside from the thatit must be some experience being in his house,he is a brilliant person.Glad to hear he is doing well and you are proud of him.! P.S. Spelling is not my strong point,but I love animals found out many diets and many pills not to give my dogs from experience bringing them to different vets natural and conventional and going on the FDA website and other websites that correspond with each other,same information.

  25. avatar Richie G says:

    No I am talking about tracking if it takes miles I am glad the bear has a chance not to be shot.

  26. avatar Richie G says:

    Why are you guys going on this other blog ,you are feeding them,let them die out,they want to hear cries from people who fight for wolves. SB I agree they are winning nothing is said about the wolves and many people in the east,even if they have endangered animals in their state it’s a small group who help. They don’t fight for them,not the majority.Hey I go to a place called the cabin in the winter in Howell N.J.They have a stuffed wolf ,fish deer etc.People dance and do not pay attention to the surroundings, I admit I am part of it too. SB I agree again Obama is not going to pick somebody animal friendly. I thought or the left thought he would pick ,Kennedy the first time around. I think his first name is John Jr. If I am wrong correct me. He is on the ring of fire radio show,Tom Hartman,Randi, Chris etc.

  27. avatar Immer Treue says:

    http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2013/01/18/outright-lies-spoken-at-wolf-meeting-in-spokane/

    More of the typical trash that Bob alludes to:

    Canadian Grey Wolf
    Tapeworm
    The Canadian wolf eats 10 to 20 pounds of meat per day!

    And some voodoo math

    Niemeyer claimed that only 5% of livestock that die is predation caused. Sounds really minor doesn’t it – only 5%? Now let’s take a herd of even 100 cattle, what would be considered a small livestock operation. That equates to 5 cattle killed by wolves. Now, let’s take the cost of raising and maintaining those cows, the value of the cow, and loss of future calves when the cow is killed by wolves. That 5% just turned into a lot of money, even if 5% is accurate. 

    No, he said only  “5% of livestock that die” is predation caused, not wolves kill 5% of livestock.

    So back to math. If 5 cattle out of 100 die, 5% of the cattle that died are tied to predation

    Let’s see. 5% of 5 is .25cattle!

    Bob Ferris, DLB, Jeff E, you’re all correct. 

    Only posted in the spirit of this thread to support Bob’s article.  I’ll not bring any more over here.

    • avatar JEFF E says:

      Immer,
      sounds like business as usual in la-la land.

      pass the thorazine.

    • avatar JEFF E says:

      you could not stuff 20 lb. of meat a day in a wolf with a broom stick.
      (sigh)

      • avatar Bob Ferris says:

        While as stated this is true (re: the broomstick),wolves can consume huge meals in that range,the problem with the initial statement is that it implies they do it each and every day. This latter implication is not correct.

        • avatar JEFF E says:

          I know that Bob.

        • avatar Immer Treue says:

          Bob,

          That’s the point I was trying to make. They take numbers that are based in fact of some sort and build fallacy around them to fit their argument.

          This has been going on for a long, long time.

          Also, I tip my hat to you for trying over there. It’s about as productive as sticking a fork in your eye.

    • avatar Nancy says:

      Whats amazing though is the fact that ranchers lose something like 25% of their cattle to disease every year (attracting all sorts of predators, including wolves)

      Many leave the carcass to rot, some haul them off to “boneyards” but either way, with this feast left on the landscape, a very small percentage of cattle are actually killed by wolves, even when they get a taste before hand, of one of these decomposing bovine banquets.

  28. avatar Justin Forte says:

    Thank you Bob Ferris for exposing some of these anti-wolf sociopaths. Unfortunately, there is a type of bigotry going on in our government aswell. Mainly on how they treat us wolf advocates.

    For years, these anti-wolf people have harassed, bullied, taunted, and threatened us wolf advocates yet they get away with it. Authorities do nothing to protect us from them, but when a wolf advocate finally has enough and does to an anti-wolf sadist what they have been doing to us for more than a decade, we are the bad ones and we are the ones who get into trouble! Why is that? Because in the eyes of this government, anti-wolf people and hunters are good ol’ high pollutin’, rootin’ tootin, gun totin’, hard workin, real Americans while the rest of us are second class citizens!

    Many of us did not want the wolves removed from protection under The ESA and many of us did not want the wolves to be hunted yet the government did it anyway!

    After the wolves were delisted and the states moved forward with their horrific plans of hunting and trapping these animals, anti-wolf people reveled in it posting pictures and video flaunting their cruelty while taunting us and rubbing it in our faces. Many of the wolves killed were wounded or caught in traps before being sadistically tortured for thrills before they were finally killed by the hunters and these hunters actually brag about it!

    Many of these anti-wolf sadists also give tips to each other on their websites and Facebook pages of ways to torture wolves and make them suffer more when they kill them.

    Also, at the rate they are going with killing the wolves, the wolves will most likely be wiped out again like they were in the 1930s if it is not stopped soon.

    Yet this government favors these sickos over the rest of us!

    No offense but the behavior displayed by these anti-wolf psychos, the things I have seen them say and do, and the way their ideologies have been forced on everyone else by the government has made me despise all hunting and has made me want to see all hunting get banned in this country.

    I also want to see the wolves get back their protections under The ESA that never should have been removed in the first place and these anti-wolf sadists stopped!

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‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."

~ Edward Abbey

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