A Project of Sage Steppe Wild
Hopefully they will do more than complain and say the judge was wrong.
by
Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University. He was a Western Watersheds Project Board Member off and on for many years, and was also its President for several years. For a long time he produced Ralph Maughan’s Wolf Report. He was a founder of the Greater Yellowstone Coalition. He and Jackie Johnson Maughan wrote three editions of “Hiking Idaho.” He also wrote “Beyond the Tetons” and “Backpacking Wyoming’s Teton and Washakie Wilderness.” He created and is the administrator of The Wildlife News.
Comments
I’m sure they’re already plotting their strategy to have them de-listed again.
http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com
listed or delisted, the hunters are killing them off! 9 bears this season alone so far, and cubs without a mother. they should close off these area’s to hunting till the bears get in the dens and are safe.
So April should they close off almost all of MT and WY?
IF that is what it takes, yes…I am sure you hunters could wait a couple months till the bears are denning to do your killing.
April,
I own a parcel of land in Western Montana, so if that is what it takes, I should not use my land? My land is in Grizzly country, do I just continue to make the payments an pay the taxes while I can’t use it?
April,
Where did you get the 9 number at?
BTW, 7 were killed or removed from the popualation by hikers.
2 of those hunter kills were mistaken idenity, the rest were defense of life. So should we close the woods to hikers too as they are have killed roughly the same amount of bears in defense of life or property?
http://www.nrmsc.usgs.gov/science/igbst/2009mort
Ryan, I have never seen a article that a hiker killed a bear, how many have they killed? Where? when????
Save bears, if you own the land and want to take the risk, go for it, but you should not allow anyone else on it unless they know the risks also, and are carrying bear spray and making noise etc….why is your name save bears anyway, all I see is you taking the hunters side of things, not the bears….
An important point April; bear mortality from hikers is nil.
April,
Its listed in the link at the bottom of my post. Both incidents happened in July. The mortality was figured at Sows killed and all cubs are assumed dead whether delivered to zoos or wandered off.
Yes, April, I do take the bears side, but I also have a very good understanding of what is involved, unfortunately, you don’t seem to have a good understanding of wildlife management and you speak from a position of emotion. As a hunter, and I have been a hunter for more than 40 years, I understand BOTH sides of this issue, I don’t hate wolves, I love bears and will continue to advocate for both HUNTERS and CONSERVATIONISTS.
What is so sad, is not one is willing to give one inch in this argument, hence we will continue to fight, with no productive answers….
Ralph,
There is 4 right there from this year, with three others listed right above it all defense of life and not during any hunting season.
11 200911 M COY 19 Jul 2009 Line Crk, BLM, WY Known, human-caused, live removal of male COY whose mother was killed
10 200910 M COY 19 Jul 2009 Line Crk, BLM, WY Known, human-caused, live removal of male COY whose mother was killed
9 200909 F COY 19 Jul 2009 Line Crk, BLM, WY Known, human-caused, live removal of female COY whose mother was killed
8 200908 F Adult 19 Jul 2009 Line Crk, BLM, WY Known, human-caused, female with 3 COY, defense of life while hiking
I really do not want to fight, like you said you have your ideas and I have mine, I just value wild life a bit more than you do as I would never kill it, even for food, I can go to the store and buy it, yes, even by bison, elk, deer etc….and not have to kill it myself, they do have farms for that.
Ryan, I only found 1 listed bear death due to a hiker on the list, the majority of them were killed by hunters or unknown…
April what if I dont want to buy my meat from a farm? What if I enjoy hunting and killing my own meat? Which I do. Why must I conform to YOUR idea of eating meat?
April just curious if you value wildlife so much what have you done this year for wildlife? What sort of projects have you been apart of? Have you been involved in any habitat restoration projects this year? Please list what you have done… Thanks
April,
If a sow with cubs is killed, for any reason the cubs are counted in the overall mortality. Hence the 4 listed above.
“I just value wild life a bit more than you do as I would never kill it, even for food, I can go to the store and buy it, yes, even by bison, elk, deer etc….and not have to kill it myself, they do have farms for that.”
April,
Thats funny, I’ll drop it at that. Your allowed your opinion, I’m allowed mine.
Of the above four bears, only one was killed by a hiker and the 3 other cubs were sent to a zoo. I guess that surviving cubs, if they are send away are considered killed. Very unfortunate. The incident happen out in the sage bush several miles from the mountains. There never has been a reported grizzly bear in that area since the olden days. The area is between Cody and Red Lodge Montana and I think that it was near Line Creek.
The bear was shot by a retired Cleveland police office who had retired to the area several years ago and would not leave to go hiking without his 41 pistol. Why carry bear spray if there are no know bears in the area and the area is not grizzly country. The bear bit and clawed him up and then retreated and charged again. The retired officer then fired 2 shots killing the bear and carefully did not fire again to conserve ammunition. When he arrived in the hospital in Billings, Montana the emergency room doctors did not think that they would be able to save him. He never had or would have had a change to use bear spray or use his pistol in the first attack. The hiker had every right to shot that bear and fish and game people that I talked with agreed. It is unfortunate. I have lived many years in the Red Lodge area and are family had a cabin 10 miles south of Red Lodge and there were never any grizzly bears around or talked about.
Thank god this was not me because I do not carry bear spray or my titanium 41 because it is to heavy at 18 oz. This is what I read in the Billings Gazette, but I miss read the Chouteau County news.
What are we going to do shut the entire State of Montana and Wyoming down. My family has been hears since the 1880’s. I hate to see this happen to grizzlies but I think there are more bears or more bears than the mountains sustain.
Elk275 thanks for information about this incident. I’ve been on the Line Creek Plateau about 10 times (Beartooth Pass mostly, of course), but also the backcountry off to the east (Line Creek Plateau). I’ve considered it grizzly country for at least a decade now. Ralph Maughan
One of the farm supply stores in Montana was advertising bear spray for $39.99 last week. I have thrown the paper away so I can’t give you the name of the store. It seems at that price that everyone who hikes or hunts in Grizzly country should carry at least one can.
I have been carrying bear spray(two cans) for the past couple of weeks here in Yellowstone. I keep the spray on my belt with the safety strap off for a quick draw. I have seen three Grizzlies over the past two weeks, but none within bear spray range. Carrying bear spray makes you think of bear encounters and I think carrying it would be helpful just to remind those in Grizzly country to be more aware.
Elk – there’s more to that story.
That retired officer was hanging out with friends. They had spread out fifty yards apart and were intently staring at the ground looking for antler sheds. They worked into a long, quiet line that was focused on the ground in front of them, not up ahead. Basically, they created a “net” that would cause any sow grizz to charge.
Their behaviour was unethical just like the phjeasant hunter. This is know grizzly habtiat and you have to be smarter than what these two incidents display.
I love the armchair quarterbacking going on by those that were not involved..
opps, hit submit to soon…
I love the armchair quarterbacking going on by those that were not involved and have never been involved in situations like this
Mike
I have lived in this area for 58 years and I can not see any unethical behaviour walking and looking down on the ground for shed horns. I think one should look down on the ground and look for rattlesnakes in that area.
A bear is not a deity.
I can remember when one could buy a grizzly licence in the hardware store for $5.00 to hunt grizzly in Montana or better yet my first hunting license which I purchase in Red Lodge in 1963 for $3.00 included a grizzly.
I wonder how many people on this forum are old time Montanan’s. It seems that every out of stater wants to have a say in the management of Montana wildlife. That includes anti hunters and non resident hunters. The Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks has done an excellent jobs of protecting the native Montana wildlife.
“Their behaviour was unethical just like the phjeasant hunter. This is know grizzly habtiat and you have to be smarter than what these two incidents display”
“Unethical” ?? What in the world do ethics have to do with this??
Evidently the grizzlies are just like the wolves — If they move in, people are supposed to move out!!
In a word (actually two words) horse crap!!
I guess, it is now unethical to venture outside!
Layton
Very well said. This was not known grizzly habiat. I have lived in the area for many years and I have never heard of a grizzly in that area. I currently live in Bozeman. There was a grizzly in Red Lodge several years ago and it was transplanted up the Boulder River.
I have been and am a very strong supporter of wilderness and I want all roadless areas declared wilderness. But what is this coming to? Are we going to all have to leave Montana as the wolves and grizzlies move east.
Elk275, I’m sorry to contradict you, but this country is now occupied by grizzlies. There are occasional griz on the Beartooth Front too nowadays and for at least a decade. Ralph Maughan
” Are we going to all have to leave Montana as the wolves and grizzlies move east.”
Only if the “greenecks” get their way!!
I really don’t think it matters what state you live in now a days…
Elk275, Layton, others,
What I’ve been trying to say is that grizzlies are moving into this particular country as people move away. There is no reintroduction of bears going on. There was a good book a few years back about these places where the population is stable (stagnant) or declining — “Coyote Nowhere” by John Holt and Ginny Diers. The Sun River Country was one chapter.
Some of us know a bit about it even though we don’t live there.
. . .and Layton, you’re no more of a Montanan than I am. You’re from Idaho like me.
Do any of you know about the obscure hills, mountains, and marshes of SE Idaho? Do any of you think you should have no opinion about any of it unless you live here? I hope you don’t believe that.
++ love the armchair quarterbacking going on by those that were not involved and have never been involved in situations like this++
I hike and camp in grizzly country. There are people who take the time to learn about the ecosystem, and there are people who could give a crap. This pheasant hunter didn’t care. The elk antler hunters didn’t care.
If you don’t think I am around grizzlies, think again. Remember that my favorite haunt is Glacier where bear densities are very high.
++Mike
I have lived in this area for 58 years and I can not see any unethical behaviour walking and looking down on the ground for shed horns. I think one should look down on the ground and look for rattlesnakes in that area. ++
You don’t see anything wrong with spreading out 50 yards apart in a group of a dozen people, in thick brush in grizz county while quiet and slowly walking without paying attention to the surroundings?
++
A bear is not a deity. ++
Neither is a hunting license.
Well, Ok. I’ve tied up as many loose ends as I want for the night.
p.s.: I agree with you Mike.
Mike,
Being in bear country and experiencing an attack situation, now which have you experienced?
You know this hunter? so well you can say, he never took the time to learn, in the 70 some years he has been on the planet?
Again, have you been in a life and death situation with a bear? I have, and I can tell you every single thing that gets said on this blog, has nothing to do with experiencing it in real time as it is unfolding! At that time I carried bear spray only and I am glad I did, I went one way, the bear went the other way, and we both survived, but I learned that bear spray is not always going to solve a situation that pops up, just as me stopping at a stop light is not always going to stop something from happening, as I learned that all the training in the world is not going to stop an enemy combatant from shooting me, been there also.
So you behind your computer screen, can say with 100% certainty that this guy didn’t learn about the ecosystem, he didn’t care..
That is Bullshit plain and simple, you have read news reports and formed an opinion based on those.
I for one, pray to god, you NEVER face a life and death situation with a bear, or we one day may be talking about You!
And being around grizzlies and experiencing an attack situation is two entirely different things…..
could have things been different? sure they always can in hindsight, but to to say he didn’t care is way out of line, and assumptive at best, you, I were not there, plain and simple, neither one of us know for sure what exactly happened, but I have a tendency to believe the people who investigated what happened and the hunter that didn’t try to hide anything, pure and simple, it was a 1 in 100 situation, and I am glad the hunter was not hurt, and I am sorry the bear was killed. Being a game management person, I know for a fact, it will happen, I hate it when someone says they made a mistake and thought it was a black bear, etc. those people should be charged with a crime, those who actually are not guilty and have to defend themselves, not because they did anything wrong, I will always side with.
Ralph,
I have an opinion about everything concerning wildlife, but I am sure not going to second guess the investigative personal, especially after I talked to them and I am not going to say someone doesn’t care, because he/she had an encounter.
I worked with Mike and trust what he says, and he said, it was not the hunters fault, although he felt the hunter should have been carrying bear spray.
++Mike,
Being in bear country and experiencing an attack situation, now which have you experienced?++
I’ve been bluff charged once in Glacier. Keep in mind that Glacier has the highest density of grizzly in the lower 48. This Rocky Mountain front area is the Glacier ecosystem.
++
You know this hunter? so well you can say, he never took the time to learn, in the 70 some years he has been on the planet?++
Obvioulsy he didn’t learn not to hunt in head high brush in grizz country. That’s rule #1. The problem is many of these people don’t care. They have a gun, and they are going to go where they want. It’s a “dominant predator” attitude rather than an attitude which accomodates the ecosystem.
++Again, have you been in a life and death situation with a bear? ++
I’ve never really had problems because I don’t hike in head high brush! I make noise in dense brush and around bends with poor line of sight . I do not walk in berry patches. I do not spread out with a dozen other people , 30 yards between a person staring at the ground for sheds, inadvertently creating a human net that would spook and startle any animal, especially a large predator mother.
I don’t do any of this in the thickest girzzly country the lower 48 has to offer. And knock, on wood, I haven’t had a problem yet. I also carry bear spray and I DO NOT hunt in thick, off trail terrain in grizzly country. Just common sense, really. In fact I try not to go off trail in the fall.
++
I have, and I can tell you every single thing that gets said on this blog, has nothing to do with experiencing it in real time as it is unfolding! At that time I carried bear spray only and I am glad I did, I went one way, the bear went the other way, and we both survived, but I learned that bear spray is not always going to solve a situation that pops up, just as me stopping at a stop light is not always going to stop something from happening, as I learned that all the training in the world is not going to stop an enemy combatant from shooting me, been there also.++
Completely agree. There’s no gaurantee to anything in life except sadly that unprepared people with guns will kill bears during hunting season.
++
So you behind your computer screen, can say with 100% certainty that this guy didn’t learn about the ecosystem, he didn’t care..++
Yes I can. If a flatlander form the midwest knows that the rocky mountain front is most famous for its plains grizzlies, then someone hunting the area should know it as well.
Common sense: don’t hike in berry patches
Common sense: Landowner says “big bears around”, don’t hike in head high brush. Heck, don’t hike in head high brush anyway unless you want to be surprised by either a large moose or some bears.
These are all things repeatedly stressed and pressed upon visitors to public lands and national parks – at least people who can read signs and pamphlets.
Also, the internet is a pretty powerful tool. Before I go to a place, I spend time checking national forest websites, mammal checklists and any recent stories that may be relevant to that area(fires, snowstorms, etc) and any other precautions.
++
I for one, pray to god, you NEVER face a life and death situation with a bear, or we one day may be talking about You!
++
I hope so too. This fall I had a bear sniff my head just outside my tent in Glacier. I did not sleep the rest of the night (I could not determine if it was black or grizz).
Here’s how it breaks down, Save Bears:
1. An informed outdoor enthusiast is aware of the most famous species of the ecosystem they are visiting, at a bare minimum the potentialy dangerous animals – in this case grizzly bears.
2. An informed outdoor enthusiast takes heed when a landowner informs them bears are out and about. Senses should become elevated, and extreme caution should be implemented.
3. An informed outdoor enthusiast while hiking sees a head high wall of brush, then remembers that is not good place to be, especially close to a meadow or open area. The informed outdoor enthusiast then turns around and finds another path, thinking “there may be a grizzly family in there, as indicated by the landowner and a very basic understanding of the local ecosystem. I can’t see anything, it’s best to move on”.
Here’s what the uninformed outdoor enthusiast does:
1. Instead of taking five minutes to read up on the local ecosystem, makes sure the cooler has ice for the campfire session.
2. When the landowner tells him there are bears out there, he doesn’t really pay attention.
3. Walks up to head high brush and busts on in after pheasant, excited to be outdoors, but also oblivious.
4. Shoots “lunging” bear after bear feels threatened by oblivious guy tramping through head high brush with limited visibility.
I’m sorry, but that’s not the bears fault. Unfortunately bears pay the price for uninformed outdoor enthusiasts. There’s really no excuse.
++I have been and am a very strong supporter of wilderness and I want all roadless areas declared wilderness. ++
I’m with you 100% here, Elk. and probably for most other things. I am just tired of these fall bear mortalities.
It´s the time of the year with the most human/bear conflicts in the West. As I remarked last year on this blog, the year before and will note most probably again next year: It´s a topic today, that will cool down again when the bears go to den, until being boiled up next year again when the annual bear statistics are published and the hunters swarm out into the woods. It seems nobody on this blog is really trying to analyze the underlying problem and to work out a solution, a way to de-conflict human/bear conflicts in the interest of the humans and the bears. Instead it´s the annual reciprocal finger pointing and the “I´m the more experienced outdoors man”. My friends, my wife and me have in our life hiked countless miles in (eastern and southern) European bear country, occasionally even seeing one of our bearish friends. We – and the guides / rangers that sometimes accompanied us – always hiked without any firearms and without bearspray (which anyway was not readily available in Europe until recently). We have never been in trouble and indeed human/bear encounters – even in countries with a high bear density – are rare, admitted that occasionally a mushroom or berry collector actually meets his first and last bear. So what is the reason for so many more conflicts in America? Why are American hunters many times more vulnerable than eastern European hunters? And what could be a proposal for a successful de-confliction, considering the benchmark figures that you have to deal with a) more bears and b) more hunters as well as the basic requirement that any solution is acceptable as long as the precious hunting rights are not scratched?
Peter Kiermeir,
You make an important point. The Yellowstone Grizzly Coordinating Committee and all sorts of officials are meeting Oct. 28 and 29 in Jackson, Wyoming, to decide what to do about Judge Molloy’s decision to relist the Yellowstone area grizzly bear. Yet too many folks here take a thread about it in the direction of hunting and pepper spray.
There is a lack of new ideas being expressed.
Molloy didn’t relist the bear because there were too many hunting incidents. He relisted it because of the collapse of the major sources of grizzly bear food in the Greater Yellowstone area. Therefore, pepper spray vs. guns is not the problem it seems to me.The problem immediately at hand is lack of food sources that are safe for bears and acceptable to humans.
I wrote a 19 page paper to the same committee meeting in Jackson this fall. It was in 2002 or 2003 and dealt with the issues of hunters and griz (right after 8 griz were killed by hunters in thorofare). The person organizing the agenda for that meeting thought it would be a great presentation and said it had a lot of solutions.
PEER and the environmental groups got behind it and lined up the national media for post paper interviews. Soon Wyo G&F, who were the designated inhouse “sponsor” for that year notified me they had been wrong, there wasn’t room on the schedule for a presentation. I could, instead, take my publics 5 minutes at the end of another presentation and “present” this paper.
This is just an example of those like WYO G&F…and the Interagency Bear team….felt when threatened . They wanted total control and any joint management decisions basically would be behind doors. With the likes of the LA TIMES and Washington Post scheduled to be on hand it was too much.
I would have to say the cartel feels better without “new” ideas.
Bob,
Didn’t you get a lot of publicity on this regardless? There have been a number of times you have been in the news 😉
I might have this mixed up.
Nevertheless, the committee and the state game and fish agencies just hate this. So forcing change won’t be easy. These people have too many political connections, simmering battles, settled battles, bureaucratic SOPs, etc, to welcome any change.
Ralph,
“. . .and Layton, you’re no more of a Montanan than I am. You’re from Idaho like me.”
Nope — don’t think I ever claimed to be — the question at hand was:
“Are we going to all have to leave Montana as the wolves and grizzlies move east.”
And I said something to the effect of “only if the green necks get their way”.
To me this really isn’t a question just about Montana. It seems that as wolves move in, the green necks expect people to either change the way they have lived for maybe several generations or to just plain move out!! I don’t think this is right in Montana, in Idaho or in Timbuktu for that matter.
Several folks here seem to think that hunting – and evidently all other human activities – should be suspended until the bears go into their dens. I don’t.
Be aware of the critters — of course. Make some allowances because they might be there — absolutely. Leave the area because one of them might get pugnacious — not likely. Bear spray vs. a gun — I won’t EVEN go there. 8)
…and all too many folks believe that bears and wolves of course have to go when they move in and protect their own interest, be these commercial or recreational or whatever they desire. It´s not about clearing an area in toto of all human activity. But yes, people in Timbuktu and Montana will have to change their mindset in this millenium instead of closing their eyes to all the challenges. Trouble ist, of course nobody will show such a personal grandeur (weakness? ) to say: I voluntary step back a little bit for the benefit of the bears and I will not stubbornly insist on my right to do (hunt?) something. So, are we back where we began – polarized as ever, unable to come up with a fresh approach and unwilling to move an inch (despite some minor allowances you generously grant)? That´s what I meant with “til next year”….
Wow you all have been busy! Morning! I just wanted to say that, again, even though I am a city girl, I grew up with grandparents that took me to the high sierras every year camping, hiking, fishing, etc…for a month every year. I am not a city girl that has never been in the wilds….I was taught a lot by my grandfather in regards to wild life etc…..I camp by myself in very remote area’s. I also want to state, that I have had a very close bear encounter, just last summer as a matter of fact. Now I do not compare my run in with Grizzly’s or mad sows protecting their cubs, but with my experience I can say I truly do know what I would do in a situation with a run in. I and my dog were walking and old jeep road when up from the side of the ravine a big black bear pooped out of the bush, I was not more than 10 feet from it. We both were surprised. Now mind you I had my walking stick, spray and a hunting knife on me. Not once did I even think of going for any of them, why???? I read the bear, he came out took a look at me froze. I looked at him, and said, well hey there bear, ain’t you a surprise? I slowly starting backing away, and the bear at the same time came out fully from the bush looked at me and turned on down the road to walk away, untill my dog unfroze and chase it, then it ran. I can honestly say that I was not scared, did not feel threatned by the bear and said a prayer of thanks for seeing the bear and for not having a bad encounter with it. I know this is not a grizzly, they are much more aggressive than black bears, but I really feel that if I ran into that situation with a griz, I may keep my head and do what is recommended and not just shoot it right off. I also would not hike in areas known to have Grizzlies, just like I do not hike into berry patch’s here, a bear can be there! I know that sometimes hunters or just plain folks will encounter bears, but if they know what to do, and how to avoid the threat in the first place, it may not happen as much and when it does maybe a better outcome for the bear will happen. Anyway, back to work now, have a good day all, from the city girl that don’t know nothin’…..
I have mostly stayed out of this because there are people who know more than I do about the bear situation.
But I have to chuckle at the old straw man argument by SaveBears about armchair quarterbacking, and if you haven’t been there, you really shouldn’t be commenting.
SB, people do it ALL THE TIME, on all sorts of subjects. If one’s opinion were constrained to only those subjects in which you had personal experience, I suspect there would be a lot of silence from all of us. How many of us have run or served in public office? Worked for a government entity? And yet, opinions fly fast and free, including from you, on the rights and wrongs of those issues, conduct of the officials, etc. That is just one area. I am betting you have offered some opinions on the legal profession…I do recall Layton as opined as well from time to time..LOL…but have you ever been a lawyer? Gone to law school? Taken a law class on any environmental issue?
So, just because you hunt and you like the outdoors as well, doesn’t mean someone else who disagrees with you about hunting bears or hunting in general isn’t entitled to be heard or given her due…just like you expect for yourself.
FWIW, I grew up in a house without guns because of what my father went through in WWII, and the horrors he saw and the friends he lost. I shot a 22 once; just felt wrong to me. As for fishing…yeah, ,I tried fishing a few times as well…couldn’t stand the sight of the fish gasping for air…~S~…So, there you are…my childhood stays with me. My older brother was a hunter; shot a deer one season, saw what it did to the deer, and hung it up.
Each experience is unique and to be valued.
Jim,
I was not telling him not to comment, I said, I disagreed with his opinion about the guy not caring. It is easy to form an opinion about what you would have done, until such time as your in a situation of this nature, you don’t know what you will do.
As far as law school, nope didn’t do that one, as far as working for a government agency, yup did that one, it is called Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks, taken classes on environmental issues, yup, it was part of my required studies when getting my degree in Wildlife Biology. See Jim, I don’t just like the outdoors, the outdoors IS my job, that is what I am trained in.
But I would like to learn how to fly fish someday. I fell in love with the beauty and art of casting after seeing A River Runs Through It, and I wouldn’t care if I caught a fish ever if I could cast like that….~S~ and be in the river…
Jim,
You would enjoy fly fishing, it is one of the most peaceful experiences you can have in the outdoors…
I went to law school just to do environmental protection work. Period. Law provides me with a quiver of weapons to protect the things that matter most to me…and others. It is who I am, what defines me, this love of wild places and its inhabitants. And it sounds like the same for you. My wife and I have both opined that given our love of animals and the outdoors, both of us should have been wildlife biologists instead of lawyers so we could spend more time out in the wild with the things we are trying to protect. But, I feel good about what we both do, that we contribute as best we can. It takes all sorts of skills to keep the wilderness and areas healthy.
I know one thing for sure I would do if I confront a bear….LOL….Closest I have come…luckily..so far was in Yosemite when we were up and out of the Valley, and came around a corner, and there in the middle of the trail was nice, fresh, steaming pile of scat! We quietly retreated, and then hightailed the heck out of there before we had a close encounter of the most unpleasant kind. And yeah, it was mom and cub season as well….But, them’s the risks you take for that kind of beauty.
Layton,
You didn’t address the point I’ve made several times now — people are voluntarily leaving northern Montana east of Glacier NP. I should add that ranches are being bought up by rich people, and many not much interested in livestock.
People leave voluntarily; wildlife moves in, including bears. I’m not say this is all for the good. I read some of the unpleasant no trespassing signs going up in the area.
One of things that could be done is a much bigger effort to rid Yellowstone Lake of lake trout. Grizzlies used to get a huge amount of nutrition from spawning cutts running up the upper Yellowstone River and other tributaries to the lake.
In addition to lake trout, whirling disease has essentially killed all the trout in Pelican Creek and other streams in and near the Park. A bunch of money to do research on and fight whirling disease would help far more than bears and other fish-eating animals. Think of the human fishers — trout lovers everywhere.
Maybe some favorite foods of grizzly bears could be planted, fostered or whatever in appropriate parts of the greater Yellowstone.
This disease has devastated some historically important trout streams back East as well, including the Battenkill, which runs right behind the Orvis HQ in Manchester NH. They are really trying to get rid of the non natives, restore habitat, etc, but it is really a struggle, Ralph. Perhaps someone could contact the Orvis corporate folks and see what they have found….
It would be great to see someone come up with a beetle resistant white bark pine tree, if scientists are going to use genetic manipulation, the least that could be done is use it for beneficial projects concerning the ecosystem…
I do think there is going to have to be some genetic manipulation of wildlife and plants. Maybe CWD resistant deer, elk, and moose.
The trouble with whitebark pine is that is grows so slowly even if it was resistant to whitebark pine blister rust, and how do you make it resistant to fire in a changing climate?
Ralph,
Regarding the hunter – griz mortality issue and the more publicized illegal salting issue I was involved in, yes there was a LOT of national media coverage. About every national newspaper, NPR and some magazines had front page articles off and on for two years. It did a lot of good in highlighting the griz manmade problems as well all the sordid political covert operations (tapped phones and opening mail) of a Dick Cheney led opposition. Plus I “won”, was flown to Washington D.C. for pictures and handshakes on the Senate floor and retained my job.
Dickie and his jackson Hole outfitter buds did not like losing. Dept. of Interior, through, Cheney’s ole Wyoming staff man, Bill Hoffman and interior oil buddy,Steve Griles, started hatcheting Yellowstone Park administrative personnel.
Which leads to the fear by those on the Interagency bear team of the possibility of all this affects THEIR jobs. It was logical, the cancellation of my speech, even though what I had to say could have really helped out the bear situation ….. if those measures were implemented.
They still could be…staying with shot elk, packing out of the kill site immediately, enforcement on illegal salting, etc.
But POLITICS, POLITICS…and administrators and biologists wanting to maintain their careers means the animals take it in the shorts.
Okay, I have to weigh in on some of these comments. Excuse me, but, contrary to the opinions of all hunters on this site, April is allowed to have emotions when it comes to wildlife. Criticism of people who are emotional about animals is ignorant – our love for animals is not to be disparaged! My three encounters with grizzly bears also turned out positive for me and the bears. We both looked each other in the eye and went the other way. I do carry bearspray and have never shot a gun in my life and have no intention of doing so for any reason. All of you experts seem to have all of the answers – but the bears are dying in spite of it. Many hunters I know of are completely without compassion for animals and their intentions are to dominate animals in whatever method they choose. By the way, my husband and I stop hiking when hunting season starts, as we have heard shots fired very nearby when on a hiking trail and don’t want to take our chances with hunters who don’t know a hiker from an elk.
Domination and the Us/Them attitude.
Bob Jackson,
Wow! Griles and Hoffman. What a rogue’s gallery!
Bob,
I thought that it was commmon practice in WY and MT to gutless quarter an elk because it is fast and effective and allows hunters to vacate the kill site quickly. Is that practiced up there? I know its praticed to a degree in AK. I use it and you can quarter up an elk in about 10-15 minutes with 2 guys and be away from the kill site before any gun-fire aware bear shows up for dinner. Just curious.
Josh
Paul Hoffman was Dick Cheney’s right hand man. He was the head of the Cody Chamber of Commerce for several years until Cheney foisted him on the Dept. of Interior (I believe) in Washington where he tried to get copies of the Ten Commandments posted in all national parks among other interesting ideas.
Virginia,
April can have emotional ties to an animal that is fine. What bothers me is she wants management decisions based off of her emotional feelings. Which I am not fine with.
Elk 275..Your comment…
“I wonder how many people on this forum are old time Montanan’s. It seems that every out of stater wants to have a say in the management of Montana wildlife. That includes anti hunters and non resident hunters. The Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks has done an excellent jobs of protecting the native Montana wildlife.”
Some of these dreaded “out of staters” that question MFWP wildlife management policies have lived in states that actually have progressive game management policies that aren’t dictated by the livestock industry. So, just maybe, they have a good idea or two, because unlike many 3rd, 4th, 8th, or whatever generation Montanans, they haven’t been lobotomized by cow growers and outfitters.
Also….would you say that MFWP has done a good job managing, fisher, wolverine,swift fox, lynx, otter, bison and the Grizzlies adjacent to YNP? Most agree these have been mismanaged, and this comes from the researchers themselves.
I can tell you also, that the hound hunters are very unhappy with the high quotas of lions, especially females. These guys know lions a hell of a lot better than anyone in FWP except Rick Simone, yet they’re ignored in their requests for lower quotas.
Yes, they manage ungulates, but that’s where the money is.
One doesn’t have to be an “old time” Montanan to have a little knowledge..
So, Josh, you think her idea of closing these areas to hunting until bears have denned is based on emotion and not on the fact that many of these bear deaths have been caused by hunters in areas known to be populated by bears or having terrain (i.e., berry bushes, etc.) preferred by bears?
I have to ask those of you who hunt…
What do you do after prepping the animal to be carried out? Do you leave the intestines behind? Do you bury them? Do you carry them out? What is considered best practices?
The reason I ask is that there were several cases of dogs getting very sick in Norwich VT and that area from deer hunters who just left the stuff behind…irresponsible in my mind, but I thought I would ask.
josh,
Quick quartering is one of the main reasons bears are becoming habituated to gun shots. that and leaving carcasses on the ground while all the hunting party goes back to camp for the pack horses.
All that quick get away you are so impressed with means all the neck meat, part of the shoulder, the rib cage and its meat, and the lower part of the hind are left. Approximately 75# of meat left is about average for an adult elk shot in Thorofare.
And Josh, tell me me how you reach around inside to get those fillets? It doesn’t happen…only in the outfitter cook tent, when someone inquires of what happens to that choice meat, does this way out story come out. All quick quartered animals in thorofare had the fillets left with the carcass.
And tell me Josh, how far back do you skin this animal to get at all this meat? In Thorofare it was just skinning around the joint of the front and then around the ham of the hind. The rest of the skin covered all that meat left on site.
Leaving all this carcass meant the ravens, coyotes and eagles couldn’t clean it up before a bear would come on the scene. Thus, pretty soon the bears learned to associate shots with food. Then the mothers teach the cubs. Ta Da
Josh, if I had any say in the matter you and your buds would be banned from any elk hunting in griz country. It used to be full quarters packed out and this is what will have to happen to stop the habituation. Gut piles are just that. No meat left. The way you do it is the wrong way for you and the bears.
I would consider you a slob hunter, the same as all those guides and outfitters doing this in thorofare.
Jim T
“I have to ask those of you who hunt…
What do you do after prepping the animal to be carried out? Do you leave the intestines behind? Do you bury them? Do you carry them out? What is considered best practices?”
I just gut the animal and leave the insides. By the next morning there are gone. On opening morning of antelope season Oct 11, all of the gut piles that I saw were being feed on by ravens within an hour of the kill. Most of the game I shoot are a long distance from anything or anybody. What happens when an wolf kills an elk they eat what they want and then the ravens and other smaller creatures down to insects strip the animal to the bones over a period of time.
I use to shoot deer on our ranch and by morning the gut pile was gone. It would be different if there was a large population center near by. Maybe it is irresponsible for dog owners to let there dogs run loose.
When a rancher looses a calf, cow or horse it generally is just left in the field to its natural decay.
Anybody who hunts elk knows the real work starts once the animal is down. By myself, it takes me 3-4 hours (conservatively) just to gut, quarter, and remove all the rib, neck, and other burger meat. No reason whatsoever to leave that behind–if you do, you deserve a ticket for waste.
“What bothers me is she wants management decisions based off of her emotional feelings. Which I am not fine with.”
Josh: That does not differentiate April from anyone else. We all want management decisions that “feel” good to us. What you and April are arguing about is whose priority should come first. Do you manage first for hunting opportunities (ungulate populations), or first for predator protections? How you answer this question can lead to very different yet very rational management decisions.
The gutless method seems to be promoted more and more these days. I think the new Outdoor Life or Field and Stream was promoting that method in the November issue. I can see using that method in Alaska, but remember in Alaska all of the meat must be removed from the field including the: brisket, neck meat and rib meat.
If meat is left on the bone it is easier for the butcher and the meat kepts better and it is easier for the horses to pack. It takes me about 45 minutes to gut an elk, quarter it and remove the horns and if the horses cooperate to load the quarters. The front quarters are tied on with a basket hitch and the rear quarters are tied on with a barrel hitch. The rear quarters on a six point bull elk weight about 125 lbs each and the front quarters about 100 pounds each. This will vary and be open for debate, there are big bodied elk and little bodied elk. That is a good load for a horse, a mule can take a little heaiver load. The outfitters by using the method that Bob talked about can lighten the load and if one is going 30 miles in the Thorofare then a lighter load is easier on the stock. I agree with Bob. I have always wondered how one gets the tenderloins out with the gutless method.
If one is backpacking an elk out then the lighter the load the better. I always hunt up hill and drag my elk down hill.
Jay
Ten year ago I shot a spike elk and the person I was with timed me. It took 11 mintues to gut the elk. That is just to gut the elk. I have done it a hundred times. Alaskan moose now that is a different story about 6 hours and I use the gutless method — that is one bloody job which I have done twice.
ELK 275 and others.
Thanks for the information.
One shouldn’t assume these dogs were running loose. I believe the cases were people walking their dogs off leash in designated trail areas..perfectly legal. Maybe the hunters were too close to the trails when they made their kills…I personally have encountered bow hunters in full regalia no more than 10-15 yds off the Appalachian Trail, which is well traveled by locals in Norwich and Hanover since it runs right through the town properities, and links up with other trails. Way too close for human safety.
That’s pretty quick to pull the insides out, Elk275. I’m by no means fast at it–probably on the slow side, to be honest–but I spend a lot of time getting every scrap of meat off that I can, and it all comes out on my back, so I don’t have the luxury of gutting/quartering/packing it out on horseback.
There really isn’t any reason not to make use of every little bit of salvageable meat–you owe it to the animal for giving up its life so you can eat.
Did you ever hear of the two pollacks hunting elk, shot one and started dragging it in the snow. Was tough going until the one remembered what his dad had said, “Drag from the front so the hairs lay flat”. Worked real slick, and they were going twice as fast. But then one guy finally looks up and says, “yup, your dad was right but it looks like we are getting further and further from the truck”.
Elk,
Its easy, make an incision at the top of the gut cavity after the quarters have been removed, reach in and cut it out, flip over the carcass and repeat.
I don’t have horses so if we have to back pack out our meat, we generally bone them out and take everything but the meat between the ribs.
Elk275 and Bob,
First of all, here in Idaho at any rate, anyone leaving a carcass with the amount of meat on it that Bob talks about would be ticketed for “wanton Waste.
“I agree with Bob. I have always wondered how one gets the tenderloins out with the gutless method.”
Pretty simple really, cut about an 8″ cut just at the end of the ribs, high under the backbone, reach up, feel the tenderloin, pull!! Use your fingers mostly and your knife a little bit and put the loin in the sack with the rest of the meat — ‘cept maybe put it on top for the BBQ and the adult beverages later that nite at camp. 8)
Bob,
The ONLY meat that doesn’t get taken when I do the gutless method is that between the ribs — sometimes. What’s that ?? Maybe 3 pounds??
Bob,
Classic response… 🙂 As for how I do it, considering most bull elk I am associated with are going to be mounted we cape them out so we skin them from just in front of the hind quarter forward. From there cut off each front quarter, cut off the hindquarters, cut off the back straps, now the fillets Bob are quite easy like Ryan mentioned easily accessed with a few knife cuts. We de-bone the neck and I usually leave the ribs behind. Also what part of the lower hind leg are you talking about? We cut em off at the hock, what meat is below the hock?????????? 🙂 Nothing but tendons and bone….
Bob sometimes your responses show your ignorance, I guarantee almost ALL clients with outfitters wanted to shoulder mount their bull, so I HIGHLY doubt they just skinned around the front shoulder… so they would cape them out which is almost 70 percent of the hide…. Do you know what your talking about at all? Or does your hatred for outfitters cloud your judgement and influence your responses?
And were are very lucky you dont have a say in how things are done, can you just imagine with all your wacked out ideas about elk herd dynamics and tin foil hats and black helicopter conspiracy theories you dream up about game agencies in the west, just imagine how bad you could screw things up…. It would be epic. 🙂
I don’t use the gutless method if I did I could probably figure it out. But thanks. I have always done it the old way and it is hard to teach a dog new tricks.
“First of all, here in Idaho at any rate, anyone leaving a carcass with the amount of meat on it that Bob talks about would be ticketed for “wanton Waste”
“The ONLY meat that doesn’t get taken when I do the gutless method is that between the ribs — sometimes. What’s that ?? Maybe 3 pounds??”
Do not try that in Alask even on a Dall sheep or Sitka Blacktail. All meat must go and the ticket for waton waste is up to $5000. It is serious business.
Josh, just posting up some of what you do hunting and such, definitely show how ARROGANT and ignorant you are. from what the real hunters are saying, they do it the way it should be done, to utilize all the meat and to insure wild life is safe after the hunt also. But as an outfitter catering to the idiots that want to hang a head on the wall to show how good of a hunter they are, you are catering to their wants not what is good for the wild life in the area. and it sounds like some of you are breaking some laws also….ya, I may be a city girl but I can read between the lines. And why arn’t ya out hunting instead of wasting your time 24/7 on this site??????
Great comment Peter, well said.
Elk I thought animals in AK could not be deboned but had to be hauled out with meat attached to bones.
PS, gosh, I could never hunt, no way I could do some of the stuff you describe! But to each his own if they hunt and clean up the mess right!!! I hope I don’t dream of sticking my hand into a animal and…..tonight!!! LOL!!
April I bowhunt so my hunts are August and September.
It depends upon the area. Some area require bone in and some allow the boning on animal. But I think that it only apply’s to four quarters not the ribs. Could be wrong. One must have a lawyer with them in the field.
A hunter shot a antlered cow moose in Sitka the other day in a bull moose only area with legal antler size. The written regulations define a bull moose as male. But the video “Is this moose legal” by the Alaskan Fish and Game define a legal moose by several classifications of antler size not by gender. The trooper wanted to issue a ticket for shooting a cow moose but the video has a different definition. Therefore, a warning was issued. A jury trail would have thrown the case out. The trooper had an ego to satisfy.
It is a mess!
Imagine a ranger with an ego…. 🙂 Is he friends with Bob??? 🙂
I used to dress all the animals like elk, most of the time now I use the quick method. Start with the elk on his side and skin all the way up to the head, lay out the hide makes a nice table cloth but can be slick if your not careful. Take off a front quarter and bag it, hind the same way, then the loins. Start at the head and filet and roll the meat as you filet all the way down and bag it. Repeat on the other side, and then just the way the guys say small hole and reach in and pull. It’s fast and clean and very little is left, besides whatever is left is better left in the woods than going t the dump. At least by being left in the woods all the other critters get some use out of what little is left.
Folks talking about how they dress out their kill, and what is left behind should realize that what they leave and how much they leave has a huge effect on the population of scavengers and predators in the area.
I have been convinced that one major reason wolves have done so well in Idaho is the lengthy series of hunts that begin to leave the guts and meat in early September. This is the time when wolves are at their nutritional bottom of the year, and it is just what a wolf pack needs to survive until winter.
Now with a wolf hunt, some of these wolves will be shot, the ravens, bears, coyotes will get the meat, and the wolves will have to kill deer and elk that they would otherwise have gotten off the ground.
That’s a side-effect I imagine not many have thought of. It has ramifications throughout the forest.
It would be a great study for wildlife biologists. Fish and Game departments should be very interested, but probably won’t be.
Forget the laws of what can or can not be left on a carcass. In griz country conflicts with humans during hunting season HAS to be cut down..way down. And the best way to start is requiring full quarters to come out. This means the rib cage stays on the front quarter…or the rib cage seperated and hauled out as a 5th and 6th unit if your pack animals or bodies can’t carry the load of four quarters. Boning won’t work. Too many times hunters have good intentions but the weather gets nasty, the darkness is surrounding or they are too far away from camp…and there is things like cliffs to navigate. Thus, the meat stays on the carcass and the “hunter” leaves…for good.
Full quarters use to be the norm…with rib cage attached for elk (too much weight for moose but then the numbers of moose killed is insignificant when it comes to habituating bears). The loaded horses went the 30 some miles to the trail head this way…big horse or mule for the fronts and smaller for the hind.
If you’re on foot, bring along a buddy or two. That is the way it use to be….and what I did also for elk.
If you are too old or a puff ball to haul much , too bad…at least in griz country.
Or use your brain, drag with the hair, not against.
The state G&F dept. know this is needed but won’t change because they themselves don’t want to. But it was change, change to being lazy, that got us into this no win for bear situation in the first place. Until the G&F and Griz Interagency starts making the tough calls to correct what is happening “back there” then we know they aren’t serious…and are showing their true careerest colors.
What do you say, Josh, you ready to go in with some of those survivalists to bring your elk out? How about you Ryan? Will it make you hunt closer to the road…or will it be continuing to go “where no man has gone before’?
And as for pulling out those fillets, unless a creek or pond is near by it isn’t going to happen with one out of a 100 “hunters”. And if you are a guide you ain’t going to do it because do this very many times and your finger tip starts to split real bad. Blood does this when you are out in the elements. Thus you will not see guides and outfitters doing this in Thorofare…ever..
I could always spot the newby guide…or the dedicated old time outfitter. Both had white tape wrapped on those finger tips. Seasoned guides didn’t. (Of course one had to distinguish between them and wranglers. They always had fingers split from ropes).
I made a poaching case once because of white tape left at the kill site 3 miles inside Yellowstone. Looked for the new tape on the fingers at the camp 5 miles away and found the poacher. Took it off the outfitters hand and he cracked with a very tearful confession before I even said a word. Ta da.
Ya big ego Josh? I call it knowing what I was doing from a life of hunting, confidence that these were the lowest scum of the earth, a desire to nail those so called Walter Mitty cowboys and of course, PAY BACK TIME.
The only thing is, the States and federal govt. aren’t doing their job for the bears and the wolves…and I can’t do much about it…except say what needs to be done.
good point Ralph,
Bob,
I would gladly abide by the rules to bring full quarters out if the F&G required me to. It would change my habits slightly, cause I backpack and dont feel like walking 30 miles into the wilderness and draggin out full quarters.. Or I would just hang them in trees and come get em later with horses… Would really depend on just how big the bulls were, if they were 370+ then I would probably be right there with you Bob.
Bob we had a ranger down here in Southern Utah that you remind me of. He gave tickets out like CRAZY… I mean like you cant believe. He gave me a “spotlighting with the intent to kill” ticket because I pulled off the oil onto the dirt road that led to our camp and some deer were in the headlights and we stopped briefly to look at them and then drove off. A total of 3-5 seconds in the lights and he pulled us over. My buddy brought his lab up to hang out at camp with us and he gave us a ticket for “hunting with a dog”. He gave numerous tickets out like that all over the mtn where we were camped. We all went to court and every single one of them were thrown out and the judge said they were ridiculous tickets. A waste of everyones time, he was just like you, hell bent that every hunter/outfitter was breaking the law or working the system. There was no way we were law abiding hunters. He did not last long. Thats what I mean by your ego.
Ralph did you get my email with the link about the ranchers tearing a huge section of national forest to build a fence down near Bear Lake?
Josh, sorry to bust your stereotype. Yes I caught and convicted a lot of poachers…and never had one get thrown out. Batted 100% for 30 yrs. Caught more poachers than all the other yel rangers combined for those 30 years…and for good measure, throw in all the rangers for the 40 yrs. before that (where they kept records to). I didn’t look that up, the guys doing the stories did, however…and I’d say it is true.
Could have notched a lot more if I hadn’t gone by my first law enforcement heads dictum, “the least amount of enforcement needed to change a behavioral pattern”. With outfitters and professional poachers it was go for the gusto. Let them cry and let those tears flow down a hung head. With private hunters it was finding out why they did it.
One time I was skiing the late elk hunt (Jan.-Feb.) in the parks NW corner and saw across the valley, and maybe two miles in the Park, a bigger and smaller person (hunters) heading up a mt. towards a small cow – calf herd.
Skied as hard as I could and finally got a quarter mile away by the time they proned behind a log and the little un was getting ready to shoot. I yelled as loud as I could…and again. Finally they heard me, looked behind and the bigger guy motions to the elk and then puts his finger to his mouth to indicate to be quiet. I waved my arms as wildly as I could and yelled NO. It stopped them. I skied up and it was a grandfather, grandson hunting combination. They had started their snowshoeing in the dark, accidently crossed the well marked Park line in that darkness and did not know they were in the Park.
Yes, I could have cited for hunting in the Park for both of them right then, or notch an even bigger case and waited til they shot …… and then cited for multiple court mandated offenses. Instead I cited the grandfather for having a loaded firearm in the Park…at that time a $50 non court appearance fine. What good would it have done to take them to the cleaners? Just bitterness or no respect for a kid growing up…sort of like you it sounds.
Through the years I could have doubled the number of “poacher” convictions. Yes, I was sort of the judge and jury but those “trials” were as objective as I could think of…. as I tried to put myself in their shoes.
Again you have it all wrong, buddy ole pal….. just like your “knowledge” of guns and ammo. Keep trying. Maybe someday you might get lucky.
Bob I am glad you did a good arresting poachers and those that broke the law. Poachers need to be prosecuted even more and I wish they were. I have turned in my fair share of poachers and they were even convicted…
You definetly made the right decision with the granddad and grandson, in all your posts all you brag about is how all hunters are worthless and how all hunters break the law. From your posts the sterotype is correct, I feel you only give those hard ass stories to try to make those on this blog that are not familiar with hunting/outdoors feel you are the lone ranger out here in the west battling all us law breaking hunters trying to wipe out the YNP elk herd…Thats all.
Bob by the way, what makes you feel I am a non-respecting person like you mentioned in your post? Just curious… Funny thing is Bob I get lucky all the time in my hunting adventures, almost all with a bow, imagine that…. 🙂 I just think you should stick to farming buffalo and tin foil hat conspiracys.
Oh by the way also Bob, me as a dis-respecting hunter spend numerous hours each year doing service projects with the Forest Service, removing old fences, closing roads and removing noxious weeds on river banks, doing youth hunt projects to introduce young kids to hunting, and this you will not believe…….. I have never had a wildlife violation… WOW, who woulda known…???..??? Maybe there should be more hunters like me…
josh,
By “getting lucky’” I was referring to maybe someday what ever it is you accuse me of you might be right. In the last post it was stereotyping me with a no good, gun ho bigoted game warden you had an encounter with.. What you experienced is the same in the ranger division. The ones that “attack” the public are the rangers who pick on those “”nice guys”.
My suggestion is the next time you have a Hitler youth like you encountered do a write up on him. Send it to him, his supervisor, headquarters and then a copy to your legislator. In it say this man is a predator and needs to be watched. Then conclude if you hear of it happening again…by anyone….. you will let your newspapers investigative reporter know. Then ask for a signed acknowledgement by all you send it to. Include a self addressed and stamped envelope. The govt. boys know how to sign off with their initials on lots of papers so have a place designated in the upper right hand corner for them to scribble those initials.
And I never thought you were a law breaker…just someone who gets caught up in the “team” of hunters. I’d suggest you do a bit more independent thought and you should come out ok….for what ever that is worth.
In my job I read every sporting and true detective magazine there was out there to find out what the mood was (one time a sporting law dog magazine did a story on my catching a big time poacher…(the case set the Wyo. record for fines on a single poaching offense). It was SWAT magazine and the Park set it up for the guy to ride back in on govt. horses. In talking to him over the wood cook stove I asked him who the publisher was. He said it was Larry Flint of Hustler magazine. I got a good chuckle out of that one…the Park never knew who they were dealing with).
Those type magazines were all around the outfitter lodge tents. I also kept up on every outfitter web site in the mts. . I had to get inside their brains to catch them.
Josh,
We had a pissant ranger working for the NWR when we I was guiding fishermen on the ditch. He was guaranteed to harass all of us on a near daily basis. Never got me but he handed out his fair share or BS tickets (all but 1 were thrown out out of nearly 150 handed out in a month). He eventually ended up blindfolded, naked, and severely bruised laying in the bottom of his boat in tidewater. I saw the start of the incident and they were well known guides on the river who weren’t criminals. Funny thing was next day he packed his stuff up and went back to CA and the Troopers never found out who assaulted him.
What’s funny about people getting away with assault?
Sounds like those well known guides are criminals now.
Does anyone have Ryan’s IP? I’d like to see some follow up on his kidnapping story.