More about the Thanksgiving Wolf Massacre of the Basin Butte Pack

Alpha female’s body retrieved

Last week I received a fundraising email from Living With Wolves, a 501c3 non-profit group run by Jim and Jamie Dutcher, who’s mission is “dedicated to raising awareness about the social nature of wolves, their importance to healthy ecosystems, threats to their survival and the essential actions people can take to help save wolves”. In the email was a story about the massacre of the Basin Butte Pack over Thanksgiving which shed some light on the aftermath of the incident. I asked them to put this on their website so that I could post it here.

Warning there are graphic images of a dead wolf.

The Thanksgiving Wolf Massacre
Living With Wolves

Update: Lynne Stone writes this:

I was part of the “recovery” team on Dec. 11th that found B171 Alpha Fe in Goat Creek Meadows in the Sawtooth Wilderness. I put my wolf tag on her, hoping that one less wolf would be killed in the Sawtooth Zone. I phoned the IDFG wolf kill number and reported it. Several days later I called local IDFG to “process her”.

Unfortunately, IDFG took her away from me, saying that any wolf killed by Wildlife Services is property of the state. IDFG has not heard the end of this yet. Alpha Fe is in Jerome. I am filing state records request every few days to know what IDFG has planned for her … if I can’t get her back (lawyers are being consulted since WS left her in the woods, not wanting her), then maybe eventually she will go to auction. She was a magnificent, beautiful wolf, even when the life had gone out of her. I am so heartsick over this. I tried for four years to keep this pack alive and it’s a miracle they lasted as long as they did – due to the hatred of wolves of Challis ranchers who run a sloppy cattle business near Stanley from June to Nov.

IDFG Conservation Officer Merritt Horsman, explains to Lynne Stone why she cannot keep possession of Basin Butte wolf B171 "Alpha Fe". The wolf was shot by Wildlife Services on November 24th, and left to rot in the Sawtooth Mountains. Stone retrieved B171, wrapped a wolf tag around her leg, and intended to use her for educational purposes. © Lynne Stone, 2009
IDFG Conservation Officer Merritt Horsman, explains to Lynne Stone why she cannot keep possession of Basin Butte wolf B171 "Alpha Fe". The wolf was shot by Wildlife Services on November 24th, and left to rot in the Sawtooth Mountains. Stone retrieved B171, wrapped a wolf tag around her leg, and intended to use her for educational purposes. © Lynne Stone, 2009


  1. Nature rules Avatar
    Nature rules

    Very sad indeed, I feel for Lynne, if IDFG just left the wolves to rot in the woods, why not let the one person that deserves to have the body have it. I hope what ever Lynne has planned is good. And may the Challis ranchers and IDFG have the worst, ugliest and bad luck year they have ever had! I hope every cow they have comes down with something and dies! and yes, this is how I feel right now…May the new year bring safety to wolves and all creatures that man intends to destroy…

  2. Dusty Roads Avatar
    Dusty Roads

    I wonder if she was gut-shot.

  3. Larry Thorngren Avatar

    The fact that the radio-collared apha female was wounded in the first volley probably saved the three remaining wolves. Wildlife Services usual mode of operation is to save the radio-collared wolf until last, so an entire pack can be electronically tracked and eliminated. A collared wolf is a dead wolf and so are any members of the pack it to which it belongs.

  4. Mgulo Avatar


    When I was doing public outreach efforts for a federal agency I was able to secure and utilize several WS-killed and state-agency-killed animals for educational purposes. They weren’t too concerned about state property then. Must be a message issue….

    Good luck!

    On the comment about radio-collared wolves being dead wolves running: Yup. Don’t ever believe otherwise. It’s not a conspiracy theory when it proves to be true.

  5. spanglelakes Avatar

    The alpha female was shot on 2nd day of control – eye witnesses in Stanley saw her, two of her pups and another wolf in the middle of Piva’s field. Baited there and sitting ducks when the plane and chopper swept in. The day before 3 wolves shot from WS gunner in chopper. WS spent days planning shoot out. Wolf tracks & wolves with or without collars not that hard to find by WS wolf-killing zealots like Todd Grimm.

  6. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    “May the new year bring safety to wolves and all creatures that man intends to destroy…”

    Now let me preface this, by saying as I have in the past, I am against public lands ranching, especially in the way it is currently managed and practiced. I believe that rancher share the majority of responsibility in the demise of a few of their animals. They need to change their ways, and improve the circumstances.

    But I will say, it concerns me, when I continue to see ill will wished upon other humans, by the very statement I quoted, it would seem we should protect the cattle as a good majority of cattle in the west are destined to be destroyed for consumption by humans.

    This goes back to a thread a few days ago, when I got in trouble because I was saying, we need to manage wildlife with science and not emotion, and that goes for both sides, there was no science involved in this destruction of this pack, it was pure emotion on the part of the ranchers to demand this pack be destroyed.

    I don’t understand, why Lynne, was denied the right to take this animal and use it for educational purposes, it would seem an abandoned animal would be fair game, and if it was me, I would pursue it to the highest level, the wolf in Idaho is no longer an endangered species, hence the USFW has no rights to it, and the state of Idaho has no rights to it, it seems IDFG have decided they are going to circumvent their own mandates and rules as they manage big game for the benefit of the people who own them, which is the public..

    I have been involved in this type of situation in Montana, different species, but they tried the same with me after I left FWP, I found a trophy sized buck who had died of natural causes and they tried to take it, I intended to have a full body mount and use in for teaching purposes, it was found on a private logging road, hence they could not say I picked up a road kill, but they did take it away for a while.

    I contested their actions, in which it was awarded to me, after it was all said and done.

    Lynne, if you plan to contest their actions, make sure, you get it started as to make sure the body and pelt are preserved, I can see them trying and end run and say the body deteriorated, hence there is nothing to preserve.

  7. Elk275 Avatar

    ++I don’t understand, why Lynne, was denied the right to take this animal and use it for educational purposes, it would seem an abandoned animal would be fair game, and if it was me.++

    I think Lynne went about this the wrong way. She put her tag on wolf that had be shot and kill by another person. It is illegal to use your tag, to tag an animal that you did not kill yourself. It is called party hunting. You have work with fish and game and know the law.

  8. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    I know the law in the state of Montana, I am not real familiar with the law in the state of Idaho Elk, based on what I read, she investigated the law and based on what was posted in the article on the Living with Wolves page, it would seem she was not breaking the law. She recovered a wolf that was shot and abandoned by an agency, not a legal hunter.

    I will have to do more investigation.

  9. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    I know in the state of WA, where I did my field studies for my degree, if we put an animal down and abandoned it, it was fair game and not illegal for a regular person to recover it, as long as they had purchased both a hunting license as well as the required tag for the animal involved.

  10. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    I also know, in the state of Montana, you can request a permit to recover an animal put down by an agency or killed by other means, such as auto accident. If your intent is for education purposes, which is how the large grizzly ended up in the Forest Service office in Lincoln, MT instead of the front hall at the U of M

  11. mikarooni Avatar

    The last thing IDFG wants is somebody showing the public the shot up carcass of one the wolves they needlessly massacred. They are now trying to stall and intimidate long enough to make the problem go away. I’m not impressed by their misguided understanding of what are supposed to be the professional ethics of “wildlife experts.”

  12. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears


    Not all wildlife experts behave in this manner…

  13. Mgulo Avatar

    SB: I’m with you on this.

    Too much emotion, too little rational thought. When the name caling and shouting starts, the rational thinking and solution finding stops.

    But sometimes the disingenous behavior of our fellow wildlife professionals do make me grind my teeth a bit.

    Probably why I’m up for a crown (dental only, I assure you) after the holidays.

  14. jerryB Avatar

    I feel very fortunate to once again have had the experience of being in some beautiful , cold, snowy, country, alive with all types of wildlife. Some of it was unplanned…like having a broken down truck on Christmas eve in zero degree temps while checking on a wolf pack. Something about wolves just makes it all worthwhile.
    Now, I check out the latest on Ralph’s blog and am livid reading about the Basin Butte Pack and the subsequent “actions” by IDFG in claiming the wolf.
    This story, hopefully will be picked up by a major publication so that the world will witness the cruelty perpetrated on wolves by the “twisted sadists” working for IDFG, Wildlife Services and I might add, Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks (who are responsible for the slaughter of 40% of our wolves here in Montana this year.)

    I’m sure the “highly educated” and those with the “responsible jobs” that denigrate some of us lesser beings and who comment regularly will jump all over my characterization of these agencies …….go right ahead…… the longer I’m around this wolf issue, the more I find that many, within these agencies, are some of the lowest of the low-life.
    Is killing a helpless creature from a helicopter the act of a civilized human???

  15. Si'vet Avatar

    Idaho fish and game laws prohibit you from possesion of any big game animal that you didn’t legally harvest, this even includes road kill etc. I believe the reason for the law is F&G enforcement officers have heard every excuse in the book from poachers, so they have had to use the blanket coverage with regards to big game possesion. I know at times when I have had to let things go to waste, it’s tough. It’s between a rock and hard spot, but I think for the overall good of wildlife better to be tough.

  16. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    Si’vet, thank you for the sounds similar to both Montana and Washington, but as I stated, there are exceptions that can be made if properly approached for educational purposes in both Montana and Washington.


    I don’t remember anyone saying that killing from a helicopter was an act of a civilized human, in fact on both sides of the issue, I have pretty much seen everybody condemn it.

    And calling us that have worked for or those who work for agencies, low life does nothing to solve any of these issues, I promised Ralph I would try to stay away from getting personal, but this is really getting out of hand…

  17. Ralph Maughan Avatar

    Lynne Stone,

    Was this wolf actually shot by WS within the boundary of the Sawtooth Wilderness?

    If so, this is a major legal barrier that was crossed (I think)

  18. Richie,NJ Avatar

    To save bears;
    Jerry B DID NOT SAY ALL, he said many who worked for the services are the lowest people in the world. How can it not make a wolf person angry,just to see how they went about this. People in Maine do the same to bears, they bait them wait in a tree then shoot to kill, then is a prett girl comes by in town, and they tell a whopper of a tale how they killed a big ferocious bear. Save bears many people act the same all over the world an idiot is an idiot. As I said before these animals like all others have a very hard and short life in the wild, only for the ranchers who are in a seat of power to snuff out their lives. Sorry analytical or not it is wrong and the method is down right sick.

  19. gline Avatar

    You are right Richie. And, we all know what kind of people are employed by the WS. What kind of people work for a slaughterhouse? why would you sign up for a 40 hour a week position killing wildlife??? Idaho F&G does not want Lynne Stone, wolf advocate, to have the body. Plain and simple. Got keep that facade going…

    I think Goat Creek is part of the Sawtooth wilderness. I know one is not allowed to have domestic dogs in this area. Wilderness regs apply, except for killing wild things…

  20. Si'vet Avatar

    Save Bears, I think there is a good possibility that an exception can be made, if not The F&G will put her up for auction, as they do in these instances. Mark would be able to tell us what the options are or where the auction will be held. Even though I may not see eye to eye with Lynne, I can understand her feelings, let’s see what we can find out. If we don’t hear from Mark, I will make a follow up visit to the local regional office tomorrow and see if there are options. And post… I may not view wolves the same as most who post here, but you have to admire the emotions and dedication of others.

  21. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears


    Please try to understand, there are many of us, that have our own feelings on these situations, especially those of us who have never been able to call the shots, there is a very small percentage of the whole that have the ability to dictate what happens despite our feelings and knowledge about what has happened.

    Despite the jobs that are done, there are not many willing to give up what they have worked their whole for, and right now, I am starting to think I made a mistake when I took a stance, because the overwhelming majority think I am crazy..

  22. gline Avatar

    Save Bears, are you saying that you specifically work for WS in Idaho? Or, are you just talking in general, ie “very small percentage of the whole that have the ability to dictate….”

    Are you trying to create respect for those who killed the BBs?

  23. gline Avatar

    Sivet says: “Mark would be able to tell us what the options are or where the auction will be held.”

    Are you crazy Sivet? Have you read any of Mark’s posts? Don’t you see that it is the intent to not let Lynne have the body??

    If WS killed the wolf, why would the body belong to the state of Idaho if the Feds killed her, especially if the kill was in a formally designated Wilderness? Hasn’t WS left the bodies to rot thus far? Why is this particular body important? It is obvious.

  24. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears


    No, I have never worked for WS I worked for FWP in Montana, and did studies on Bison and Wolf interactions, including the ability for wolves to transfer brucellosis to other animals.

    My research showed it was a very remote possibility, but that was not accepted and I was ushered out of the agency losing any benefits as well as salary, and currently I work independently on private funding that is offered concerning wildlife studies, focusing on Bison.

    Despite what many here accuse me of, I work to further the functionality of intact ecosystems, after I retired from the Military, I used my benefits from that 26 years of service to ensure my contribution to what I love, the outdoors and wildlife.

    I am a biologist who bases my comments on my personal experience in the context of science and not emotion.

    I have never once said, I condone needless killing of wildlife, I have never once said, I condone the practice of SSS and I have always condemned poaching.

  25. izabelam Avatar

    Si’vet – you are saying ” I believe the reason for the law is F&G enforcement officers have heard every excuse in the book from poachers, so they have had to use the blanket coverage with regards to big game possesion”
    We are not talking elk poaching here and Lynne is not a poacher. Wolf was killed by WS, they dumped the body.
    The reason they are difficult is that they can. This is just pure power show off. It is just to punish Lynne for her fight for wolves.
    They (WS and IDFG) don’t give a crap about the wolf.
    Time to expose the whole deal on the national level. So, to all who care..distibute message across the states to all your friends.

  26. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    I never said, I am trying to garner respect for wildlife services, but in the same sentence, after working for the government for so many years, I know for a fact it is a very few that dictate what the vast majority do, the wrong people in charge, bad things happen, and I don’t know many who are willing to give up their careers.

  27. gline Avatar

    I’m glad you are on board, then.:)

  28. Mark Gamblin (IDFG) Avatar
    Mark Gamblin (IDFG)

    All –
    My interpretation of Lynn’s attempt to claim the wolf killed by WS: regardless of intent, Lynn could not legally tag the wolf if she did not kill it. She cannot legally salvage the carcass if she did not kill it. Legally, the wolf, alive or dead, remains a public resource that no private citizen has a legal claim to – without having collected it by legal means. The IDFG is the designated trustee of the wolf, even though dead. On behalf of the state, the officer was obligated, by law, to seize the carcass from Lynn.

  29. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    And gline,

    Just so you know, I will state it once more, I was a commissioned officer who graduated from West Point, and retired as an O-6(Full Bird) in the army, so I do know the politics of government service, and now, I am even fighting for those benefits which I earned with 26 years of service, due to my refusal to “walk the line” I served in many different theaters of conflict and was wounded in Iraq in 1991 and am disabled due to that wound.

    I have my life invested in this fight and will continue to fight for balanced ecosystems, fair management and our heritage for the future.

  30. izabelam Avatar

    Save bears,
    We know that..”I am a biologist who bases my comments on my personal experience in the context of science and not emotion.” If you love the othdoors and wildlife, protect it and save it including the predators like wolves. Ah.I said..wolves are not on the same level as in your book of science they dont’ deserve protection… personal attacks. maybe you can help me to understand what are the scientific options in our battle to save wolves from the mass distruction? maybe I can learn something beneficial I can use to support my fight for wolves from YOUR scientific point of view.

  31. izabelam Avatar

    You said: On behalf of the state, the officer was obligated, by law, to seize the carcass from Lynn.
    How many days did it take to get the carcass after the wolf was shot?

  32. Elk275 Avatar


    You have never had any experience with game wardens, I take. They can be the nicest and most helpful person in the field. Then some of them are the biggest sons-of-bitches that God created, they are a law on to themselves. The worst ones are in Alaska, they are not game wardens but Alaska State Troopers.

    I have never had any experience with the FEDS, yes USFWS, their game wardens would put they mothers in jail for using a red fish fly in a yellow fish fly zone.

  33. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears


    I have never said, the don’t deserve protection, please point out where I did.

    In our last exchange, you claimed I was a poor scientist because I said, I was interested in the interaction between the species and how it affects the whole of the ecosystem.

    I worded it incorrectly, which lead to be not being able to post for a week.

    And based on the scientific evidence, and sorry, I don’t feel wolves are on the same evolved level as Dolphins, Elephants, whales and Elephants, that is based on how they react in their social groups and what studies have documented..

    You accused me of hating animals, which is so far from the truth, I don’t even know how to defend it…

    Take into account, I learned based on science, just as the many other biologists that work in the wildlife field and many other scientific fields, do I have emotion, sure, I cried like a baby when I lost my dogs, but fully understand why I did, but I am not without emotion, but I also understand emotion is not the way to many any wildlife.

  34. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears


    Unfortunately with returning vets, we are seeing quite a lot of them get into law enforcement for the various dept of interior agencies, as well as state wildlife agencies and it is really leaving a bad taste due to their inability to deal with the public in a compassionate as well as courteous manner.

  35. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    oops, posted Elephants twice!

  36. Si'vet Avatar

    Iz I am absolutely not calling Lynne a poacher, I am saying the laws are set up to keep poachers from claiming they found an elk or a wolf along the road etc. and can legally claim it. I am not sure what the hell thinking goes on this site but reread, I am a HUNTER who want’s more elk less wolves, but I understand Lynne’s position and I am willing to help find out what can be done to help her out. Gline, I am not CRAZY, I will bet you 100 $$ if there is away Lynne can end up with that wolf, Mark will let us know. Ralph, I will drop 100$$ off at your house tomorrow, on way to F&G office. G, I believe Mark has no motive to not tell us what can be done or not to secure that wolf for Lynne. Put $$ where your mouth is. Crazy maybe, Ralph will confirm with you tomorrow he has my 100$$.

  37. Si'vet Avatar

    Iz reread Mark’s post he is quoting from the F&G laws, long before wolves were ever reintroduced. Iz I live, associate with several biologists, and none interpret the way you do. What’s the deal? And all, I have heard the words liberal etc. used with regards to posts and this site, when was the last time the anyone read the definition of liberal. When reviewing this site at times it has a Rush Limbaugh overtone. 3d party time..

  38. izabelam Avatar

    thank you.
    I am just trying to be logical here and determine why suddenly IDFG want the wolf. They left it. How many days did it take to get the carcass after the wolf was shot?
    🙂 Well, maybe we can have a great solution. Lynn gets the wolf, Ralph gets 100$ and I will stop harping about it.

  39. Si'vet Avatar

    Iz, forgot to add, you said “we’re not talking about poaching an ELK. as if a poached elk ” just a prey animal” is of less importance than a wolf. Iz you poach a wolf you poach an elk, I am your worst nightmare, “biologist” “shame”.

  40. Mark Gamblin (IDFG) Avatar
    Mark Gamblin (IDFG)

    All –
    I want to be clear that I do not know what, if any decision has been made regarding the disposition of this wolf carcass, nor am I involved in making that decision. With that said – the IDFG salvages hundreds of animals a year for law enforcement evidence, charity donation of edible meat, research or educational purposes and likely several others that don’t come to mind. Selling antlers, pelts, hides and other animal parts – at public auction – is also conducted annually. If the wolf in question is disposed at a public auction, Lynn would have the same opportunity to bid on the pelt that anyone else would have. There may be other avenues for acquiring the pelt and skull that Lynn can pursue.

  41. Si'vet Avatar

    Iz, WS left wolf not the F&G, they just got stuck enforcing the law. Again let’s see what can be done, I have faith, if not I am out a 100 bucks.

  42. Mark Gamblin (IDFG) Avatar
    Mark Gamblin (IDFG)

    izabelam –
    “You said: On behalf of the state, the officer was obligated, by law, to seize the carcass from Lynn.
    How many days did it take to get the carcass after the wolf was shot?”

    I have no idea, nor does it matter. The issue the officer had to deal with was the legality of Lynn possessing a wolf carcass she did not legally acquire. Si’vet is correct that legal, individual possession of wildlife is allowed only under specific circumstances – permits, hunting licenses and tags, etc. Even salvaging road kills is not allowed by law.

  43. Si'vet Avatar

    Thanks Mark, just in case, I believe those auction sites are posted, do you know where and when it might be. Would that be in region, 4 or 6.

  44. izabelam Avatar

    Si’vet.I am sorry if I irriated you. not intended. An elk is a big a wolf considered a big game?
    PS. Poaching is wrong regardless of type of game.

    Back to the subject: It has been a while since it was killed. How many days did it take for IDFG to decide to retrive the dead wolf? Is there any period of time after which the dead animal is not even worth picking up..are they any limit to expire for picking up the dead animals? And why did they left the animal? Why they did not pick it up after the kill?

  45. izabelam Avatar
    izabelam more questions. Thanks Mark.

  46. Si'vet Avatar

    No need to apologize, yes a wolf is considered big game in Idaho and if someone were to poach and get caught, they would pay the price, and I am pretty sure it would fall into that “trophy” category and the penalty would be increased. As for the delay, F&G and WS are totally separate agency’s in Idaho. My best guess, is when Lynne purchased her wolf tag there was probably a lot of dialog, then through word of mouth, F&G found out she was tagging a wolf she didn’t legally harvest. So in a VERY difficult situation the F&G officer had o go to her home and enforce the law. Can you imagine being in that situation. Is it a tough situation for all involved “hell yes ” is it good that even in this case the law was enforced so down the road some poacher can’t sight this case and possibly elude the law, in my opinion heck yes.

  47. Mark Gamblin (IDFG) Avatar
    Mark Gamblin (IDFG)

    izabelam –
    You are welcome.

  48. Ralph Maughan Avatar

    Mark Gamblin,

    Where was the wolf shot in the Southern Idaho wolf hunting unit?

  49. Si'vet Avatar

    Ralph, with due respect, just in case Mark doesn’t have the info yet, as of noon today it was just reported, not processed, Unit 63A, Market Lake area.

  50. Mark Gamblin (IDFG) Avatar
    Mark Gamblin (IDFG)

    Ralph –
    Right now, I only know that the hunter reported taking the wolf south of hiway 33 in unit 63-A on December 28. As Si’vet said, that would put it in the Market Lake area. We are following up on specific details. As soon as I can share more, I’ll post it.

  51. Si'vet Avatar

    Iz, I don’t believe in Idaho there are any limitations on time for picking up a big game carcass. And again this is my best guess. WHY, If I HEARD RUMOR that someone had elk meat or a wolf hide in their freezer and it was not legally harvested, I would call CAP, citizens against poaching and report. Without the law the perp could say, this elk, or wolf was a road kill, or I found it while I was out and about or just about any story, and without spending a fortune or involving CSI Idaho, how do you prove otherwise. With the blanket law, no possesion without legal harvest, your are busted.. hope this helps

  52. Jay Avatar

    I HIGHLY doubt that the carcass is salvageable, so why she would want it is beyond me. Even if it were extremely cold, with the fur coats of wolves, they’re so well insulated that after a day or so they would be turning green and the hair would slip, so it’d be useless for tanning. Not to mention, I bet it’s bird pecked and in not that good of condition.

  53. gline Avatar

    Save Bears – you are very defensive about your experience, past etc. All I said was “glad you are onboard”. Why so defensive?? It cause half the problems….

    Anyway Si’vet- not really into betting. If you have read any of Mark’s posts, they are very vague and broad public speak. I see above he says when he gets more information, he will let Ralph know. (re: specifically where the wolf was shot).

    I don’t think what shape the pelt really matters, more of an educational experience for some. Don’t know you would have to ask the source!:)

  54. Jay Avatar

    gline, it would matter from the standpoint there’s not much educational value of a rotten, stinking carcass. What would you do with it, keep it in a freezer forever? Sounds like something Michael Jackson would do…

  55. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears


    When you participate in a charged blog such as this one, it is very easy to become defensive when you continually have people making comments like you have and continue to do. I admire Gamblin, even though I may not agree with him, because almost all of you attack, ridicule and put him down continuously. he sticks with this job, and what he believes in.

    There is a very old saying, that I am sure we all have heard many times, it get more with honey than vinegar, remember because you disagree, does not mean the other individual you are disagreeing with, does not believe in many of the same values, just with a different method.

    I know for a fact, that I and many of my associates got into wildlife management, because we love animals and the outdoors, but often times we are challenged by the choices and wishes of those above us..

    Now let me ask you a question, why are you so defensive and disrespectful, when someone disagrees with your opinion or position?

  56. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    that was believes in many of the same values, just different methods

  57. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    boy, I must be tired, anyway, I am sure you get my meaning.

  58. gline Avatar

    SB, I don’t go on and on about my military background, Westpoint, etc. Issues that don’t pertain to wildlife.

  59. gline Avatar

    If you really admire wildlife such as the historically demonized wolf, you would choose a side to advocate and protect that animal. You obviously care enough because you are on this blog, but many times you seem to be the minimizer for protection. The placater of the wolf advocates.

  60. gline Avatar

    No Jay, the “pelt” is past that point now, it is principle. She had wanted it for a different reason than just a “pelt”.

  61. Ralph Maughan Avatar


    I just want to comment on Mark’s presence on this forum.

    Mark has been tireless on this blog answering questions. I think his civil responses after being personally attacked are something everyone would copy. Thank you for this, Mark. It takes forbearance.

    As a note. I am aware he is Fish and Game’s man on the blog. He won’t deviate. When I get time, I am going to make a list of my answers I don’t think he or Fish and Game have answered very well.

  62. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    I never have once said, I don’t wolves not protected, I have never said I hate wolves, I have never agreed with those who preach SSS, I don’t side with poachers and turn them in when I have knowledge of their activities..

    I don’t minimize for their protection, but I do think they are recovered based on the criteria that was set in the recovery plan, and feel that sound wildlife management is warranted.

    I admire all wildlife, not just the wolf and advocate for sound management of all wildlife.

    Why is that so hard to understand?

    Ralph, you told me to let you know, well I am letting you know, cause I could see this going a bad direction, and it always seems to involve the same individuals.

  63. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    Just to add, I feel the real threat to wolves is Wildlife Services and I think wholeheartedly that is where the focus needs to be, I would love to see this agency disbanded or at least restructured..

  64. Ralph Maughan Avatar


    See my comment about Mark G.

  65. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    Even if the wolf is place back on the endangered species list, it will not curtail the activities of WS services one Iota! they will continue to wipe packs out, and use lethal control, they will not be affected by a re-listing

  66. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    Thanks Ralph,

    I was typing when your message was posted..

  67. gline Avatar

    Ralph, with all due respect, if you gave ID F&G a list of questions they did not answer very well, what would be the outcome? I don’t think much. but PLEASE correct me if I am wrong.

  68. Ralph Maughan Avatar


    I expect then we would have a discussion of them. Fish and Game would make arguments. I would make arguments, so would others. Then everyone would decide.

    People would take what they learned to do various things (or not). I notice that more and more blogs link to this page. The MSM also are getting ideas for stories here.

  69. gline Avatar

    Yes, maybe you would be given a discussion. But in the back rooms would anything really change? (minus- lawsuit outcomes) I appreciate what you are doing. I guess I lack the amount of trust you have.

  70. Ralph Maughan Avatar


    I don’t have much trust. I learned not to. Things change slowly, and I’m not optimistic that the natural world has much a future with the direction of things, especially after living though this decade.

    However, I keep on trying. Spending my retirement working for conservation and the things I love sure beats watching reality TV or whatever.

  71. Ralph Maughan Avatar


    Oh, I should add that a lot of personal contact have been made through this forum, and they have led to positive developments.

  72. gline Avatar

    Trying to think of something positive to say after that, to end this night now!!!:)

    – I am hoping for Molloy to find that wolves need to be put back on the endangered species list in the New Year, based on merits of the case. Then Id, WY and MT can figure out better plans to keep a fragile, needed species on the earth. Happy New Year all – here’s to hoping it will be better than last year.

  73. gline Avatar

    Well that is good. I hope they are long term positives… I’m off now. thanks for chatting.

  74. JEFF E Avatar
    JEFF E

    I notice that the “challenge” between posters here as to how would one like to see wolves managed or some variant of that question is becoming more frequent.
    Do you think that a sampling of some posters with varying views posting an essay of what should be included in a management plan would be feasible?
    Perhaps having people actually put on paper what they think on the subject will revel some interesting perspective and give some common ground to move the issue forward.

  75. nabeki Avatar

    Larry Thorngren says:
    A collared wolf is a dead wolf and so are any members of the pack it to which it belongs.
    Nowhere To Hide….Intrusive Collaring of Wolves

  76. nabeki Avatar

    Why State Fish and Game Agencies Can’t Manage Predators
    By George Wuerthner
    Who’s Minding the Wolves?
    State Wildlife Management: The Pervasive Influence of Hunters, Hunting, Culture, and Money
    Killing Wolves Violates Public Trust
    By George Wuerthner

  77. JimT Avatar

    Jeff E,

    The problem is with “management” is that its very essence is based on the notion that humans must kill wolves, at least from has been done so far by the states of Wyoming, Idaho and Montana. Let’s think outside the box…let’s think of a way to actually encourage wolves to live healthy lives and co-exist with them. Imagine…

    Let’s not hide behind nice sounding words anymore…Harvest, manage..mean kill. How about a restoration and maintenance plan that focuses on habitat, prey, and public land ranching and the changes that need to be made there before going to the idea of “needing” to hunt wolves. I mean, really, ,do you think a wolf’s life is that easy they will take over the western US, and huff and puff and blow the ranches down?

  78. JimT Avatar

    I think Ralph has hit the nail on the head from the environmentalist side of things. Trust.

    Those of us who, in one way or another, from one place or another, have been fighting for the wild places and things in the West have had too many agencies lie, too many corporations ignore laws and regs, too many folks simply say federal land is my land and just use it for their own benefit with no regard for the health of the resource. Deals are struck at the table, and then abrogated. We have compromised the wild places and wild creatures into this corner; we bear responsibility for it, just like Brower’s lifelong regret over Glen Canyon Dam.

    So, as we enter a new year after the Decade of the Zero, let’s get back to the roots of the green movement…no compromising of principles or science; full disclosure by agencies of all reasoning (if there is such a thing), documents, and deals that go into policies that affect our wild things and wild creatures. Channel your inner Hayduke.

    Will I be glad to see the end of this year and decade….

  79. JEFF E Avatar
    JEFF E

    The decade has one more year to go…..just sayin

  80. ginny clerget Avatar

    Dear Ralph, could you send me the address of this judge in Montana (Judge Molloy probably in Helena, but I can not find an address for him ). He needs to see the photoes of the massaacre of the Basin Butte pack. I want to make sure he is aware of what the Wildlife Service is doing. In case he does not know, Wildlife Service is blatantly disobeying everything about the wolf hunting season he okayed. Poached wolves are not considered any of the quota, the fact they are dead should qualify the wolves, and now, heaven forbid, the wolves these killers are slaughtering, and getting away with, are not being counted, giving these killers free reign to kill and killl and kill all they want with no one to report too. This was not what the judge ordered and he needs to stop Wildlife Service right now or throw them all in jail for disobeying a federal order. The wolf hunting season was bad enough and now we learn they will continue to kill through all the denning season, that was REALLY hard to take, but now this plus dreams of slaughtering 25 more packs, it is time to stand up and say OH NO YOU DON’T!!!! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!! WE WILL TAKE NO MORE!! WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR ILLEGAL BLOODSHED.Contact Molloy!!!

  81. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    As repugnant as it is to many, Wildlife services are not breaking Federal Law, They are a separate agency that work for or at the request of other agencies. Malloy is aware of what they are doing and I am sure it will be brought up strongly in the various cases now pending. Understand even if they are relisted by the Judge, it will not effect Wildlife Services. Now if Malloy rules in favor of the plaintiff in the 10(j) action that will effect them.

    Malloy is located at the Federal Courthouse in Missoula.

  82. Jay Avatar

    Ginny, doesn’t sound like you’ve learned anything. Try doing a little research before going off.

  83. Richie Avatar

    I agree a collared wolf has no place to hide, let the living thing live free and at peace with man. Nature will take it’s course with the wolf and all living creatures. The European sprit is to control the wilderness and all it’s creatures. In many instances the control ends up killing the element in nature that we try to sustained. Keeping hands off is not one of our greatest quailities.

  84. JimT Avatar


    Federal judges have to maintain the appearance of being a neutral decision maker, even though they are humans with prejudices, preferences and principles just like any of us. I am not sure that a vehement diatribe will do much to influence him in our direction, and indeed, if he gets too many, he wouldn’t admit it, but it would be in the back of his mind. Better to vent at your legislators, organize at election time and threaten votes. I completely understand your anger and frustration, but I doubt that any letters reach Malloy; his clerks screen them first.

    Malloy has been a good judge on this, all things considered, certainly better than if Brimmer had this case. If the decision to re-list is not made, then it is time to put lots of pressure on Salazar and Obama and the rest of the Senators and Reps who serve on the appropriate committees. We have the power; we just need to coordinate it.

  85. Ralph Maughan Avatar

    ginny clerget,

    Wildlife Services is a horrible problem. Unfortunately, they have been around by one name or another for almost a hundred years, and they survive every attempt to change them due to the complicity of various, usually Western members of Congress. The book, Predatory Bureaucracy by Michael J. Robinson, is a must read about them.

    In theory, they could be made into a worthwhile agency fighting invasive species, but they have a hard core body of personnel that have a “killum” view of every perceived problem with native wildlife. Nevertheless, there is the potential to try to reform this agency again, especially during a time of economic constraint (recession).

    About the judge . . . citizens can’t directly try to influence judges by sending them materials or contacting them about specific cases. It is not proper. However, judges live in the real world and most read the newspapers (part of the declining portion of the American population, that reads).

  86. Ralph Maughan Avatar


    The biggest trust-breaker, the reason Mark Gamblin isn’t given the benefit of the doubt here, is Butch Otter and most of the other politicians in the state. They oppose or feel that they have to oppose the wolf.

    It would be good for someone to run for office with making support the wolf part of their campaign. The worst that could happen is that they would lose.

    Here in Pocatello the long-time mayor, a pretty competent guy, was defeated by an absolute newcomer. One of the major reasons was a “sleeper” issue, anger over a dog ordinance.

  87. JimT Avatar


    Picking up from another thread, I understand the need for changing out politicians. But, I am thinking more systemically in terms of yanking the power out from underneath the ranchers. It wasn’t always this way; the laws created these powers for ranchers, ie, Grazing Advisory Boards. I am thinking that if we can find ways organizationally to cut the easy and mandated access to decision making the ranchers have, you might have half a chance of having a politician feel safer in opposing the ranchers, WS, etc. It seems to be strategically that even if a good politician is elected, if we don’t change the methodologies of power that allow ranchers to have so much influence, eventually they all succumb.

    Dog ordinance…VBG…Boy, am I familiar with dog issues…leash laws, breed banning, poop fines…you name it, it is here in Boulder. The single most influential recreational group in the state here are the bicyclists….they got a law passed here that essentially gives them free rein to ride down roads in the mountains, and block traffic if the bikers themselves deem that traffic is not impeded by their actions. Amazing. Sometimes, I gotta wonder about the human species…

  88. Richie Avatar

    Just a thought did the ws check the area for snowmobiles or for people hiking or is it hiking at your own risk from wildlife and wildlife management too. If a kid got hurt or killed what then.

  89. gline Avatar

    Actually Molloy – (sp Molloy) does read his letters. It is good to write him letters. I believe he reads the Missoulian’s letters to the editor. He wants to see what the community thinks as well.

    Ginny I admire your passion. You are not complacent are you???:)

  90. gline Avatar

    *I know this because I have written letters in the past 2 years, that he has responded to at times for various reasons. Plus the clerks have assured me that he reads them.

  91. gline Avatar

    Jeff E says: “Perhaps having people actually put on paper what they think on the subject will revel some interesting perspective and give some common ground to move the issue forward.”

    Why put on paper when it is already online? I don’t understand your intent JeffE.

  92. Save bears Avatar
    Save bears

    I stand corrected, I did spell his name wrong, it is Molloy, not Malloy, sorry, had not had my coffee yet…

    Molloy’s job is to interpret the law as it pertains to this case and render judgment based on the merits of the case presented within the scope of the law. This is not to say, they can’t rule in such a manner that sets precedent, but I doubt he will do this in this action as it would be appealed for a long time to come, which could cause more harm than help.

    As Ralph stated, the big problem is Wildlife services, in the relisting case, even if he rules in favor, it will not change their practices…they will continue to kill packs. I just real another article that says they will be targeting the Miner Lakes Pack in the Big Hole area of Montana…

  93. gline Avatar

    JimT says”… no compromising of principles or science; full disclosure by agencies of all reasoning (if there is such a thing), documents, and deals that go into policies that affect our wild things and wild creatures…”

    Sounds very nice, but how does this come about? Many believe in consensus building, others don’t- like Ginny above. So we get nowhere or not far fast I should say.

    Obviously, I am not really for the consensus building too much as it doesn’t seem to be working fast enough -eventually turns into stalling on one side. If we were to do the wolf reintroduction ethically right, strong education for pro wolf conservation should have happened from the beginning and continue- but it did not. And, I don’t think the compromise of lethal control should have been handed over so readily. So in many ways, the reintroduction was doomed from the start, and wolves pay the price for just being what they are.

    Yes, wolves may be here to stay -but what kind of life is that? Picked off one by one any time, any where year ’round? They are not managed like other big game animals. At this point one would have to take the quality of life for a wolf into perspective, and this just doesn’t happen. Call it the health of the species then? What about stress on the pack when alphas are killed, other members killed sporadically through the year? What is the rest of the pack supposed to do? I’m sure they lose weight, akin to cattle being pursued by wolf packs. It is a matter of value balance between the millions of cows and thousands of wolves.

    We don’t even know the effects all this killing will have on the gray wolf species, taking into account natural death and disease as well.

    I see people stating we need to coordinate, not just arm chair advocate. That is true. find your local wolf advocate and join in. Write to your local tv news and newspapers even if it feels like it will go nowhere. On KECI last night was the story of the MT wolf hunt a success. I emailed the executive producer and requested more positive stories regarding the wolf, and wolf advocates. I got an emailed response this morning from them stating they will take me up on my request. Just hope this doesn’t backfire on me.

  94. JimT Avatar

    Somewhere in the archives is a long thread on consensus as a decision making approach, and how enviros have largely been rolled by this approach. It favors the status quo as a general matter, and that usually doesn’t work out real well for the enviros. Some people simply don’t like confrontation and the vested interests take advantage of that. I like the new stances by Center for Biological Diversity and Wildlife Guardians about ESA suits, damn which party is sitting in power. Powers that be tend to move only if they are pushed. Time to do some pushing.

    You get there by whatever means you can use legally and ethically, and you get there by standing up and telling politicians if they don’t vote green, they will be looking for a job. You get there by looking at how the vested interests have special access, legally or not, and you expose it and cut it off. You get there by getting the couch sitters to get off their LazyBoys and get involved, or lose the species or the parks they like to visit. We get there by following the Republican example of closing ranks and voting in unison, not fighting among ourselves for turf.

    Nothing new, in other words. old tactics that worked, and we forgot somehow and now we are paying for it.

  95. JimT Avatar

    As a lawyer, I am not sure how I feel about Molloy reading and responding to letters as a Federal judge, no matter which side of the issue I am on. There has been way way way too much politics involved in judge selection since Regan, and mostly by Republicans along party lines, and we are seeing the results. I want qualified jurists who make decisions based on the law and applicable facts, not because of a letter writing campaign.

  96. Linda Hunter Avatar

    I don’t claim to be a wolf expert but I have read everything I can find about wolves, tracked them a few times and seen them in the wild. From what I have learned it seems that wolves, and coyotes, cougars and other animals work to fill a void where they are not, but habitat to exist is. . they do this quickly and to an elk hunter it would look like the wolves are multiplying like rabbits and need to be killed. From a biologists point of view it should look like a natural and TEMPORARY natural development. When wolves have found their level, like water in a pond, they will stop multiplying like rabbits. . (not my analogy) and even go down in numbers . . but in the western states no one seems to be using the management tools (killing) with this knowledge in hand or be willing to let nature take it’s natural course. On Lynne’s situation I believe that a close scrutiny of the laws may be in order as she had a tag and followed all the procedures . . party hunters don’t do that. The fact that she didn’t kill the wolf may result in a further definition of the laws as her situation is not like any other in all the details. It may take a judge to sort it out. I hope there can be a fair decision not based on hot head thinking.

  97. Si'vet Avatar

    Linda, the reason Lynne is unable to keep the wolf, it is classified as a big game animal, you cannot take into possesion any big game animal in Idaho you yourself did not legally harvest, just buying a tag, and reporting it correctly is not enough. This law has been on the books as long as I can remember. I believe the law was created yes in part for party hunting but also to protect game animals from poachers, even though everything Lynne did was probably legit, not everyone F&G deals with are that way. To make an exception in Lynne’s case could endanger all big game species in Idaho and make it much tougher to investigate and prosecute the real criminals. Here’s an interesting tid bit, a few years ago an informational person for the F&G talked about having helped finish off a deer his hunting partner had wounded, then the partner tagged it, and in the fine print it was the F&G persons bullet that actually killed the deer, so he was in violation of the law, basically, “party hunting” he was issused a ticket and I am not sure if he lost his job or resigned, but the law was enforced. Can you imagine the stress around the office for awhile. My point, we need to keep game laws tough, increase the penalties, and keep the loop holes closed. I feel bad for the situation but to give in may create a loop hole for the scumbags.. hope this helps

  98. Ralph Maughan Avatar


    Thanks for, about another pack going down in Montana. The official Montana wolf pack report I posted this week said that the wolf hunt did not make wolf/livestock problems worse/better.

    I don’t know how they can say that so soon. This pack was both hunted and “controlled” on behalf of the barons. With 2 factors at work, you can’t easily say what effects either had, but because the pack is now just a remnant, attacking livestock seems predictable to me.

    In addition, there has been a lot of wolf control in Montana since the hunt ended. That hardly supports their conclusion about the non-effect of the hunt. It is a premature conclusion.

  99. Ralph Maughan Avatar

    Here is what they (MT FWP) wrote in their latest “Wolf Weekly” about the Miner Lakes Pack they are going to wipe out.

    “On 12/21, WS confirmed that a calf was killed by wolves on private property near Jackson in the Big Hole Valley. The calf is not expected to live. This is the fourth confirmed incident with the Miner Lakes pack despite previous incremental control efforts and some hunter harvest. WS has been authorized to lethally remove the Miner Lakes pack.”

    They wounded a calf . . . just terrible, or not.

  100. nabeki Avatar

    I read those reports every week..and it’s just ridiculous what’s going on. Right now they are gunning for the Pintler, Battlefield, Mitchell Mountain and Miner’s Lake Pack. It just goes on and on. WS is out of control and they should have their budget cut or eliminated, period!!

  101. nabeki Avatar

    And Montana FWP gives WS their marching orders.

    Also no more collaring of wolves. It’s just getting them killed. Reading the FWP and IDFG’s reports on collaring…as I know you do…they are continually darting, replacing collars, intrusively handling wolves, Bangs himself admitted that 2% of all wolves die from the trauma of collaring. This has to stop….

  102. nabeki Avatar

    Si’vet – Read the Living with Wolves text. The reason the wolf was taken from Lynne by IDFG was that it was killed by Wildlife Services and “the property of the state”, even though WS didn’t want the carcass.

  103. JEFF E Avatar
    JEFF E

    As long the rancher has the phone # scribbled on the wall next to the phone, the gunships are just a call away.

  104. Si'vet Avatar

    Nabeki, I’ve read it and tha’t exactly what I am try to convey.. A big game animal killed for any reason outside of Legal harvest is the property of the state. It needs to stay that way to protect all big game animals. Please take the emotion out of this one wolf and think about all the big game species. They need protection and this law gives it indescrimnately to all. I know you don’t agree with what’s going on right now but the law is tough, I am pretty confident that sometime down the road, some scumbag is going to go in to the F&G office, get a tag and try to claim a wolf not legally harvested, and with any luck they will bust them. This law will work in your favor, please give it time.

  105. nabeki Avatar

    Everyone should be reading these reports….and the yearly ones as well. Here is just a sampling from December 5 – 11, 2009 and November 28 – December 4, 2009. They killed a wolf from the Bender Pack for HARASSING A CALF.

    Interestingly they haven’t posted anything since 12/11.
    Wolf – Livestock Activities

    On 12/9, WS confirmed that a calf had been killed by wolves on private land near Grant south of Dillon. Tracks of at least three wolves were seen in the area. WS was authorized to kill one wolf from the Horse Prairie pack. The landowner was given a kill permit for 1 wolf. When one wolf is killed either by the landowner or WS, control efforts cease. They can be renewed should there be additional confirmed losses and the time period for implementation (45 days) starts over with subsequent
    confirmed losses.

    On 12/10, WS completed lethal control efforts when 3 wolves from the Miner Lakes pack in the Big Hole Valley were killed. A total of 5 had been authorized, and 2 were killed on 11/13.
    On 11/25, WS removed the remaining member of the Centennial pack in southwest Montana.

    On 11/30, FWP authorized WS to kill the remaining members of the Mitchell Mountain pack which lives primarily on private land north of Helena. On 11/2, a guard dog was confirmed killed and FWP had authorized removal of 3 wolves. One wolf was killed on 11/19 and another on 11/29. On 11/30,
    WS confirmed that another guard dog had been killed. Losses had occurred with the pack previously in 2009 during the month of March (incremental control occurred at that time and two wolves were killed).

    On 12/2, WS removed a wolf from the Black Mountain pack in the Madison Valley near Cameron. Control efforts ended and the livestock owner was notified that the kill permit is cancelled. Two calves had been killed on private land in late October.

    On 12/3, WS confirmed that wolves killed a calf on private land in the Big Hole Valley northeast of Wisdom. Tracks of at least 7 wolves were seen. WS has been authorized to kill 3 wolves from the Pintler Lakes pack and attempt to place a radio collar. WS also investigated a report of a cow being killed by wolves and determined it was unconfirmed as a wolf kill.

    On 12/4, WS killed a wolf on private land in the Big Hole Valley north of Wisdom from the Bender pack. The wolf was seen harassing cattle with two other wolves. This is in the same area that a heifer was confirmed injured by wolves on 11/19. The owner reported that the injured heifer from 11/19 has
    died. No further management actions will occur at this time.

  106. nabeki Avatar

    What’s happening to wolves right now is so tragic it’s hard to even discuss it.

    I was pointing out that WS didn’t really care about Alpha FE, she was laying where she fell. It was only when Lynne tried to claim her that they suddenly decided it was the property of the state. They all knew those wolves were lying out there. Why weren’t they retrieved by the state if they wanted them so much?

    Wolves are being slaughtered plain and simple. Montana has 200 fewer wolves and counting from the 450-500 we started witht his year and WS is not done yet since they are gunning for 22 wolves from five to six packs. Read the wolf reports. 40% of Montana’s wolves are dead.

    Yet what is being lost in this is wolves do not kill very many livestock compared to the other predators AND cattle die from other things not related to wolves over ninety percent of the time. The WS operations are used to flame people’s passions…making it look like wolves are hanging around all the ranches waiting to kill livestock. That is totally untrue. The only reason they know what wolves are doing 24/7 is because many are collared. If you collared all the predators in the state coyotes would be the ones doing the killing but even they do very little. Don’t you see this is all political?

    I for one am sick of ranching using federal dollars for their own private wolf extermination service!! Either police your own herd or go sell cars. This is a public subsidy to agribusiness.

    Here’s an idea, get the cattle and sheep off our public land.

  107. Si'vet Avatar

    Yes, Nabeki, I understand all the other issues, I also understand the emotion and your passion. I have alot of that for some other species. My only point, I don’t believe it was just because Lynne picked up the wolf she wasn’t allowed to keep, if the govenor had picked it up I think the F&G would have confiscated it (at least that’s my hope). I don’t think the WS had anything to do with the F&G picking up the wolf, sure they killed it, I don’t have the facts on why they left it, I don’t even know what the WS policy is for retrieving the animals they kill. I just know the law that allows the F&G to confiscate non legally harvested big game animals, should apply to everyone no matter how difficult the situation.

  108. nabeki Avatar

    I have to disagree and say it had everything to do with Lynne picking her up. Those wolves lay out there without anyone claiming them and I’m sure Alpha Fe would have never been retrieved if it hadn’t been for Lynne’s love of these wolves and her dedication.

    As for me I’m headed to the North Fork to spend my New Years there. Hoping to see Dutch or Kintla pack wolves. I saw fresh wolf tracks in Glacier the other day, that gave me hope.

    My wish for this New Year is that 2010 is when the American people will wake up and say no more slaughter of our wildlife. That’s my hope for wolves and I will work toward this goal with all my heart.

  109. nabeki Avatar

    can’t even spell my own blog:

  110. Craig Avatar

    “Here’s an idea, get the cattle and sheep off our public land.” Couldn’t agree more….but did you notice all the kills you posted were on PRIVATE land?

  111. Si'vet Avatar

    Nabeki, let’s agree to disagree, have a safe trip.

  112. Craig Avatar

    Why would WS want a wolf carcass? Just like animals in Yellowstone don’t get picked up, they are left to feed other animals and be recycled back into the inviroment.

  113. Elk275 Avatar


    ++As for me I’m headed to the North Fork to spend my New Years there. Hoping to see Dutch or Kintla pack wolves. I saw fresh wolf tracks in Glacier the other day, that gave me hope.++

    We may disagree on the subject of wolves, but I have always wanted to spend New Year’s in Polebridge. Have dinner and drinks at the bar and in the morning, oh, the fresh rolls in the genernal store. Good Luck and drive careful. I love Polebridge, Montana, its been a long time since I was there.

  114. gline Avatar

    Was going to post about the big hole pack but timz did it, thanks timz.

    Everyone call Sime please, at least speak up.

  115. gline Avatar

    “Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks Wolf Program Coordinator Carolyn Sime says the pack has simply not improved its behavior, despite previous attempts to alter behavior and thin its numbers.”

    Simply not improved its behavior? How does a wolf know not to eat livestock? Really? FWP is imposing human standards on a predatory animal. That is now science.

  116. gline Avatar

    No, Craig, I haven’t noticed ALL the kills are on private land.

  117. timz Avatar

    I think the explaination to all this killing is very simple. They feel they will lose in court in Jan/Feb.,the wolves will be re-listed and they are going to kill as many as possible before that happens.

  118. Craig Avatar

    gline, funny when you leave out 1 word it changes things. I said “all the kills YOU POSTED”.

  119. Cindy Avatar

    Hi Friends – I found this poem on the website: and just had to share. Hope siting the author is sufficient for sharing it. As I always mention, when I’m not writing a nut and bolt comment, I will always balance my arguments for my support of wolves with some mystical and magical words.
    Crying to the Man in the Moon, Ray L. Edwards / Written in 1997 / Published in 1999, 2000 and 2001

    “I once saw and heard a wolf, was he howling at the stars; No, I thought that night, he’s crying to the man in the moon.

    He was sad about the death of his mate, caught in a snare; Lost forever to the Spirit world, never more to be seen or heard.

    The Alpha Male once so proud, now diminished by his loss; Resorts to almost humanlike behavior, by offering up a prayer.

    The pups she once cared for and fed, whimpered their soft refrain; Were now the responsibility of another, whom he might learn to love.

    All the others in the pack joined in his song, understanding and sharing; In his mournful and eerie cry, once again pledging their loyalty to him.

    Natures once proud and abounding breeds, slowly but surely diminished; by a misunderstood and uncaring law, that they were dangerous to one and all.

    From the crest of that proud vantage point, a wolf prayer was shared; Reminding me and others when all seems lost, we can Cry To The Man In The Moon.”

    May we not let up one bit in helping these beautiful wolves survive in the wild wild west.

  120. jerryB Avatar

    Ralph’s quote..
    “The official Montana wolf pack report I posted this week said that the wolf hunt did not make wolf/livestock problems worse/better.”
    5 more packs either partially or completely taken out and Caroline Sime and associates has a media blitz going on in Montana about how successful the hunt was and their studies show that depredations have not increased. The hunt was alittle over one month ago and they’re lauding their “studies”.
    AND, they’re killing wolves in record #’s
    This stinks!

  121. mikarooni Avatar

    I shouldn’t ever count chickens before they hatch; but, I think it’s clear that “timz” hit it right on. They know we’ll prevail in court and that the wolves will be re-listed; so, they’re out to kill as many as possible before that happens. I know that I’ll get flak for this comment; but, given that this site and especially this thread is just flat crawling with more collaborators, dissemblers, and apologists for the IDFG and WS than I have ever encountered in a single place before, I’m happy to take that kind of flak from that kind of people.

  122. Wilderness Muse Avatar
    Wilderness Muse


    Several of us have predicted some time ago that Judge Molloy will likely rule against delisting, and, of course, he hinted heavily in that direction in his ruling on the denial of the emergeny injunction a few weeks back. So, your entry to the ranks who believe this is no surprise. The Judge has had the opportunity to watch one cycle of state harvests, and despite the anxiety and consternation of certain wolf advocates it has played out pretty much as the states expected.

    Because of the lengthy time involved in the legal process, prospects of relisting and subsequent appellate court proceedings regardless of who wins before Judge Molloy, and in the face of growing wolf populations, the states have apparently made an effort to stay nearer their desired population goals as set forth in their approved plans. That certainly translates to killing more wolves.

    There is a tendency to believe that only ID, MT (and rogue state WY) are having wolves killed by WS. This is untrue. I have recently been looking at what is going on in Wisconsin. They have roughly the same number of wolves as MT. Of course, the habitat is different, politics are more muted, and, of course, they do not have elk. They do, however, have livestock mortality and an inordinate number of dogs killed by wolves. They also utilize lethal measures to deal with “problem” wolves, whether done by WS or thru issuing of shooting permits to ranchers. Furthermore, they have a very aggressive collaring program, rivaling that of the the NRM states. They had something like 75 collared wolves (of a populaton of 530 wolves) on the air last year. Nearly 100 wolves were found dead in the state in 2008; WS does alot more live trapping and subsequent euthanization than in the NRM, but they do kill wolves there (problem wolves are also killed in MN, something over 100-160 per year as against their roughly 2,000 population).

    Wisconsin wants to have state wolf big game hunt soon, but their wolves are back on the ESA as of last year, in part for the same reason that the NRM wolves will likely go back. It has to do with technical legal definitions of the Distinct Population Segment (DPS) concept ,and how it has been applied for the purpose of delisting.

    WI progress report:

    I would urge you take a look at Tables 7 and 8 beginning at page 22 (Acrobat file page 30)of the 2008 Wolf Progress Report.

  123. Si'vet Avatar

    Ralph, here is where the problems lies, you have people who raise buffalo on private land in the midwest make a “profit” you have folks who live in the rockies for the last 20yrs. who think they are “experts” and you have flat landers who think they know what’s best out west of the Mississippi. I’ved lived her for more than a 1/2 century and it is still a guess.

  124. jerryB Avatar

    WM…check your stats
    MN has roughly 3000 wolves
    WI about 650

  125. JB Avatar


    Yes, WS kills wolves in MN, but it typically amounts to less than 5% of the population in any given year. If that is all they took in the NRs, they would get a lot less grief from folks here! Regardless, I think we can agree that there are cultural differences between the West and Midwest that make comparisons hard to make. I would also argue that wildlife management agencies in the Midwest generally have the trust of their citizens (as opposed to agencies in the West). And last, but not least, public lands ranching is a non-issue in the Midwest.

  126. Si'vet Avatar

    Jerry B not sure where you hang your hat, but there are differences……. What works in LA or NY isn;t the same in 1.2 million Idahoi

  127. Ralph Maughan Avatar


    JerryB is a Montanan.

  128. Si'vet Avatar

    Jerry B. my roots are on the Fairfield bench. My grandparents farmed and served hot lunch in Sun River .. (Crow) it’s in your blood ..

  129. Wilderness Muse Avatar
    Wilderness Muse


    Thanks for catching the MN error. The official number is 2,895, if I recall correctly. They do crude technique estimates only every fie years. This last one showed a decrease. They do not account for dispersers out of state. I wrote at length on another thread about how they do it, with a link to their technical report.

    2008 number for WI is correct.


    I was trying to point out that wolves do die in other states in fairly large numbers at the hands of WS, the states and under special permits issued to ranchers. Also, that collaring is a technique used elsewhere to gather more data. Do note, however, that WS seems to be more humane in their lethal technique; they trap and euthanize.

    As for citizen trust/mistrust of wildlife management agencies, Midwest v. West (deserved or not), I would not be inclined to make the inductive leap to your conclusion without some empirical study. I also think perceived vesting in economic and recreation interests in the West color the politics a bit more.

  130. Ralph Maughan Avatar


    Of the people I know on this forum, most live in the West, or have lived here. I’d give an rundown, but I promise confidentially. It’s up to them to say where they’re from.

    In the case of JerryB, who has given the forum this information about himself, he is pretty famous for his clever marketing of a product from Montana moose. 😉

  131. Si'vet Avatar

    Ralph>>> good site, we don’t see eye to eye but the passion with regards to the wild, it doesn’t get any better,. I only have 3 words— gyro’s Thurs. 8..

  132. izabelam Avatar

    Si’vet ….How about that $100.00? 🙂
    I am from Utah and Idaho (part time..hope full time or 90% times soon).

  133. mikarooni Avatar

    Thanks, I’ll take some time to look at this information more closely. It’s best to hold cards to the vest; but, there is also a need to share things with those who might want to help. At first glance, this information seems to reinforce many concerns about differences between the scale and objectives of wolf control in the northern rockies and similar activities in the upper midwest, especially given the differences in the levels of human development and population densities between the two areas. Given these differences, one would logically assume that there would be a proportionately greater need for wolf control in the upper midwest than in the northern rockies; however, wolf removal numbers in the northern rockies are higher and I believe in a statistically significant way.

    Given that many people hold dogs in special esteem and get sensitive about their treatment, it’s tricky to be both tactful and honest about the loss of these animals; but, the truth is that there are a lot of mixed-breed feral dogs running loose around rural areas. I run cattle in a remote area. I know how “rustic folks” live, in both the upper midwest and the northern rockies. I know the kinds of dogs they like to keep and how meticulous they can be in keeping them on their own property and off other people’s property. I know the damage that feral dogs do to livestock and I know how “rustic folks” often blame wolves, coyotes, lions, and even foxes for that damage. These “rustic folks” may claim these wandering packs are valuable hunting or tracking dogs; but, they run feral and cause quite a bit of damage to neighboring properties. They often get picked up by county personnel and put down anonymously or simply disappear as a result of a neighbor’s irritation and good aim; believe me. The number of rural dogs that are put down in these ways far exceeds the number taken by any and all wild predators combined.

    Again, I run cattle in a remote area. I know how “rustic folks” work their cattle. They run out and buy purebred northern cattle, herefords and angus and such, and then lose interest in watching them. As even USDA stats show, these breeds have been so inbred for fat and fat calves that heifers often have problems with their first calf. The percentages for calves needing to be pulled range as high as 27% for herefords and 23% for angus. If the calving schedules on these kinds of “synthetic” heifers are not watched carefully and the animal attended skillfully, either or both the heifer and the calf will be lost in these cases. In fact, these breeds are no longer particularly capable of surviving without careful human tending due to this problem, which makes bangs look insignificant because bangs won’t kill the heifer. In cases where “rustic folks” have not tended these heifers properly and have lost either the heifer or the calf or both, they will often, again, blame wolves, coyotes, lions, and even foxes for the loss. Further, once the animal is lost, they will often leave the carcass out and thus encourage scavenging. This practice can be used to create evidence of depredation to justify compensation; but, it also teaches wild predators that what smells like beef on the hoof is also food on the ground. Again, the livestock lost in these ways far exceeds the number taken by any and all wild predators combined. This is particularly true in Catron where the country is rugged and remote and wise and meticulous “cowmanship” is not the rule and never has been.

  134. Richie,NJ Avatar

    Happy new year to all !!! May next year be better for our wolves and all wildlife !

  135. jerryB Avatar

    mikarooni……..Wondering if you run your cows at high altitudes?
    I was recently reading an article about the number of cattle that die of “high altitude sickness” (75,000 per year average at a loss on 60 million$). New Mexico State Univ was doing the research I believe.
    Are you in Montana and do you have this problem with your cows?

  136. jerryB Avatar

    Ralph…Thanks for promoting my product!!!! Happy New Year!
    “In the case of JerryB, who has given the forum this information about himself, he is pretty famous for his clever marketing of a product from Montana moose.”

  137. Si'vet Avatar

    Iz, gline didn’t take me up on the 100$$ bet. He said he’s not a betting person, I am, is there something you want to wager on with regards to wildlife or Idaho F&G… Let’s do it, and the 100 $$ goes to the wildlife fund of choice… You bring it,,, FYI you lose my wife is all about ASPCA

  138. Si'vet Avatar

    mikarooni, you are a cattle rancher who grazes on public land ?? May I ask what breed of cattle do you raise, and the number ?? Do you ranch west of Denver if so approx. how far west.

  139. jon Avatar

    Can someone please make me understand why there is even a hunt to begin with when you have agencies like wildlife services killing wolves? Also, is there any restrictions on what wolves hunters are allowed to kill? Can they shoot and kill small wolf pups too? This is disgusting. Something has to be done. It is disgusting that these people are taking the lives of wolves who are just trying to survive. Wildlife services needs to be abolished. These hunters are disgusting acting like the elk belongs to them. Unlike them, the wolves actually need elk as a food source to survive when hunters don’t. We non hunters should have a say about this wolf hunt.

  140. Si'vet Avatar

    Mikarooni, the reason for my questions, having been raised on a hereford, angus farm, I am aware of ranchers who raise small pockets of longhorn or other novelty type breeds and try to down play the breeds that actually provide and supply the demand.

  141. Ralph Maughan Avatar

    Everybody have a happy New Year!

    Best Wishes 2010

    Ralph Maughan


Ken Cole is a 5th generation Idahoan, an avid fly fisherman, wildlife enthusiast, and photographer. He is the interim Idaho Director for Western Watersheds Project.

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Ken Cole