Note that this replaces the 23rd edition. That edition will now move slowly into the depths of the blog.

Bighorn Ram © Ken Cole

Bighorn Ram © Ken Cole


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About The Author

Ken Cole

Ken Cole is a 5th generation Idahoan, an avid fly fisherman, wildlife enthusiast, and photographer. He is the interim Idaho Director for Western Watersheds Project. We do not accept unsolicited “guest” authors or advertising.

398 Responses to Have you come across any interesting Wildlife News? February 24, 2011

  1. Virginia says:

    For something uplifting – in a new feature series on our national parks on DailyKos, craigkg highlights the Jackson Hole Monument, including the history of the monument designation, pictures (Ansel Adams) of the area and a truly thorough article explaining how this wonderful area almost was not protected and preserved for all of us. Please take a few minutes to access and read it! DailyKos is planning to highlight all of our national parks in this series in the near future.


    someone I know sent me this one from Field and Stream – speaks to the hazards of barbed wire fencing to wildlife – from sage-grouse to record bull elk

    • wolfsong says:

      We live in area where there was an old mountain ranch, lots of barbed wire still hanging all over. Two summers ago we had a bull Moose get caught in some of it, he was able to get loose but the wire was still hanging on him. He went down into one of the ponds and so DOW sedated him in the pond to get the wire off. Every try to float a bull moose? They did manage to keep his head above water and get the wire off and he made it through ok. I told our HOA that either they start making lot owners start cleaning up their wire or I was going to go it for them 😉 Despite warnings from the HOA people haven’t done much so I am going lot cleaning this summer.

  3. wolfsong says:

    Another slap on the wrist for poaching, and this guy was a state trooper!

    • Phil says:

      So, basically this gentleman was denied any more hunting rights for a while, but no serious charges against him. Only $500? Unsubervised probation? Revoked hunting license is the only good that came out of it, but what’s to say that he won’t kill anyays? Maybe I am wrong, but does it not seem like poaching in the Northern Rocky Mountains region has been increasing steadily the past few years? Back in 2007-2008 12 wolves were illegally killed in the UP of Michigan. As a country that is so solidific in pointing out what is right and wrong, why is it that other countries, such as in the continent of Africa and Asia, give out harsher punishment to poachers then we do?

    • Woody says:

      Disappointing but not surprising. What is happening with Rex Rammel and Tony Meyer and their poaching charges?

    • Savebears says:

      He is not gentleman, he simply another criminal, and he is the most dangerous criminal, he was a criminal with a badge…

    • wolfsong says:

      SEE? You guys GET IT, why don’t they? Poaching a moose = $10,000 fine. Kind of funny they had to defend their actions saying he didn’t get special treatment, well YES he did. He memorized the wrong dates for hunting season? ERRR – right. And if you and I had done that?

      • REChizmar says:

        Speaking of which, I saw via the JH Newspaper they fined a photographer something like $10K for baiting bighorns. While I do not know the specifics involvoing the photographing, one would think poaching would warrant a similar fine / punishment.

      • Elk275 says:

        It was no where near $10,000.

  4. Daniel Berg says:

    “Rep. Hastings blocks breaching Snake River dams”

    (double posted on old thread)

  5. Daniel Berg says:

    “Oregon tribes pursue first bison hunt in century”

    I wonder if the participants in the hunt would feel so good about it if they realized how imperiled the Yellowstone Bison could be genetically?

    (double posted on old thread)

  6. Immer Treue says:

    Not a slap on the wrist, and at least a start for a wolf poacher.

    • jon says:

      and not surprisingly, the hunters who commented on that article is calling this slimeball poacher a hero.

      • Rita K.Sharpe says:

        I am not surprised that some hunters call him a hero but poaching is poaching,whether it’s game or a predetor.

      • Savebears says:

        Plain and simple, he is a criminal…

      • Rita K.Sharpe says:

        You have that right,Savebears.

      • Savebears says:


        I am a hunter and I am happy I am a hunter, but people like this are not hunters, they are criminals, there is no flexibility, put them in jail, take away their guns and don’t allow them to ever get a hunting license again..not even once…

      • Taz Alago says:

        Here here!

    • Daniel Berg says:

      I saw an article recently regarding a potential DUI penalty in Washington State. The penalty involved making the convicted individual get a speical license plate identifying them as a drunken driver. It would be a great penalty for poachers as well.

    • Phil says:

      jon/Rita: I agree with both of you. No matter what, it is still poaching. The comments from those hunters on that article continue to give the hunting society a black eye. They are basically praising this man’s illegal actions and saying “We will do what we want whether the law is or is not with us.” I truly hope congress is learning about actions by certain people like this one, and hopefully they do not bend over knees to give people like this what they want.

  7. wolfsong says:

    Not wildlife per se, but if you’re wondering how your House Rep’s voted on the CR.

    There is a link in each paragraph leading to a role call on each vote.

    And if you are really p’d off after reading the above, go here to see where their campaign contributions came from 😉

  8. jburnham says:

    Results of January, 2011 Bi-Partisan Poll of Western
    States’ Voter Attitudes on Conservation, the Environment
    And Renewable Energy in
    Colorado, Montana, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming

    • I think this shows the Republican agenda of drastic budgets to outdoor and conservation programs is not supported by the public. However, they are organized the best, at least for now. Democrat politicians oppose them, but don’t seem to have much courage.

      • jburnham says:

        The public may not support cuts to environmental protection, but it must be a pretty low priority for most. Otherwise why keep electing republicans all across the west? And why not more opposition from the Dems?

    • Phil says:

      Although the polls for all the category of surveys are positive, most are close to that 50/50 boarder line.

  9. Phil says:

    Jeff: You mean the one that says “Win a case of Champagne with Essential Properties:? Kidding. “Real America” is only portrayed in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming and South Dakota? So, what’s the rest of the country the side show to real america? “Friendly people”? Maybe so, but hopefully tourists don’t run into people like Rockholm, Bruce, Ron Gillette, etc. I can see the majestic beauty they are talking about with the image of a wolf representing it. I guess North Dakota is not part of this “Real America”?

    • JEFF E says:

      Actually I was referring to the part, that when the link is opened, all of these states tourism bureaus are willingly linked. guess there is no problem making a buck with the states huh.

  10. JimT says:

    Not directly on point with regards to wildlife, but hell of an important research piece on hydrofracturing and the impact on both ground and surface water supplies, and the antics of the state regulatory agencies and the oil and gas industries to deny culpability. Long piece, but worth every page…

  11. jon says:

    2011 Legislature: GOP promotes biggest job killer bill

    “Sixty-one House Republicans voted to nullify the Endangered Species Act, eliminating thousands of jobs in the public and private sectors and costing Montana nearly $2 billion over the next four years.”

  12. Virginia says:

    Great article on my favorite animal that should be on the Endangered Species List!

  13. jon says:

    You guys are going to get a kick out of this site.

    Welcome to Your source for Anti-Canadian Wolf Apparel and Vinyl stickers.

    • william huard says:

      Gee jon- the hillbilly redneck predator haters are now trying to make money off the wolf issue! Do you think the blonde can talk?

      • Salle says:

        Sure she can talk, it’s just that her “talk” doesn’t have any reasonable or rational content, that’s all.

  14. Woody says:

    Aticle about netting elk cows in the Bitteroots. I wonder why the helecopter crew is from New Zealand.

    youtube: helicopter chasing elk in the Bitterroots

    Rex Rammel has been in Oregon talking about how bad wolves are for game and stock.

  15. JB says:

    Western wildlife commissions on the chopping block


    “Still, most agree that reform is needed. “Like any aspect of governance,” says Chris Smith, former deputy director of Montana’s Fish, Wildlife and Parks Department, “wildlife commissions need to evolve with the times.” In appointing commissioners, he says, governors must recognize that public interests in fish and wildlife management and conservation today are much broader than they were 30 years ago. And commissioners need to understand that they manage wildlife as a public resource and need to serve the interests of all their constituents.”

  16. Jerry Black says:


  17. PointsWest says:

    My latest promotion:

    Teton Lake – Hog Hollow Complex the movie can be viewed on YouTube at the link below. It is best to watch in full-screen in 720p or, at least, in 480p (controls on lower right of viewing screen):


    • Salle says:

      Well that didn’t work so well…

      • PointsWest says:

        The people who this matters to most probably have slow internet service and cannot watch. If anyone is genuinely interested, you can down load an HD720p version of this at the below link. You must RIGHT-CLICK (not left) the link and choose “Save Target As.

        It is about 100 MB and takes 5 to 10 minutes to download at normal speed. Play with Windows Media Player after it downloads.

      • Savebears says:

        Nice project PW, Now who do you send that to, to get a bug on their plate?

      • Salle says:

        Nice work… but I can hear the screaming already. It’s a reasonable concept only the acreage to be taken up by the alternative will be fought tooth and nail by those who get subsidies for the beets, wheat and spuds they grow there now. And, how dare someone suggest that they give up that property for the greater good? It’s probably what the dialog will sound like. It’s a heritage thing, I guess. You should have heard the screaming about how the third generation irrigators know best how to use the water and that the dams are there for them to rape, I mean reap from the land… and that was directly following 90 minutes of the Native Americans of the region telling the BPA panel that they have been here for thousands of years and didn’t have problems with the environment/salmon/water naturally placed there until the irrigators/farmers showed up… Get ready for the whining and screaming to begin (in between trips to the P.O. and the bank to get/cash those subsidy checks).

      • PointsWest says:

        SB…it is already being studied. Idaho needs the storage. This concept and others are being studied along with a rebuild of the Teton Dam. I can tell, however, that that those conducting the study (BOR and IDWR) seem to be favoring a rebuild of the Teton Dam.

      • PointsWest says:

        Salle…my family owns some of the land. I know personally all of the land owners. One land owner is a cousin. As it turns out, no land owner would lose all of there land. They would only lose a fraction and will be left with lakefront property with beautiful views of the Tetons…like my family. This is almost entirely dryfarm land (no water) and is not very valuable…maybe $800 per acre. The main lake is about 4000 acres so that is only $3.2 million on a $390 million project. Much of this land, including ours, is in CRP becuase it pays more to not farm it. It is marginal land.

        The goverment has eminent domain rights and can condem the land and force sale. I think most land owner would be delighted. They would end up with water rites and lakefront property.

        I’m sure one or maybe two might not like it. These are large parcels of land out there. I think that for the large Teton Lake, we are only talking about five or six land owners.

        This is a good lake site. It you notice, three of those lakes form a semicircle. This is because they are in an old caldera that predates the Yellowstone, Island Park, and Henry’s Fork calderas. This older and more eroded Hog Hollow caldera is about 12 miles in diameter. These lakes are in a depression where the caldera collapsed so that they have flat bottoms and steep sides perfect for storing water.

      • Salle says:

        Given those details, I find it to be a worthy proposal, especially when the dam site is a pretty poorly planned situation, IMO, and if they intend to repeat the failed dam construction with earthen materials again, I would be interested in seeing the lake idea go forth instead. The possibility of a devastating flood, like last time, should give all parties pause if the proposed dam is indeed going to be a remake with the old construction plan and materials.

        It’s a better option. I like the graphics in the vid, what software did you use? It looks like an ESRI GIS “flyover” app.

      • PointsWest says:

        I used Google Earth and captured fly over clips with some Public Domain software called FRAPs. FRAPs is generally used to capture video of 3D game play since it captures Direct-X or Open-GL video. Google Earth uses either Direct-X or Open-GL. Open-GL seem to be better.

        I then edited several captured clips wtih Adobe Premier Elements video editing software. You know, I just got this Adobe Premier Elements v.9 and it lets you render the video in FLV format and automatically upload to YouTube. My little video can be played in 1080p on YouTube although few people have an internet connection fast enough to stream 1080p. The highest quaility I can get through my connection with 3 MB down is 720p…but it is there on YouTube in 1080p for those with 6 MB down to watch in full 1080p HD video.

        I think YouTube will really come into its own as people get better internet connections…someone like me can easily produce and publish on YouTube a 1080p HD video.

        My Blu-Ray player is also connected to the internet so I can watch YouTube on my big screen HDTV in the living room.

      • PointsWest says:

        …because I know someone will try and capture Google Earth video clips with FRAPs, let save them a lot of head scratching with this one tip. When you go to recored your video with Fraps, be sure and set Google Earth in a resolutoin that your video editing software can handle. The one you want to use is 720p or 1280X720. In Google Earth, go to the menu and select View/View Size/TV Playback/1280X720p(HDTV) before you begin recording with FRAPs. If you use some odd ball size (like full screen), your video editing software will put big black borders around your video clips. I tried recording with the 1080p setting but FRAPS still recored in 720p. I doubt 1080p would look any better than 720p for Google Earth clips anyway.

      • Salle says:

        Thanks for the technorati, Points West, it’s a nicely done work. Back when I was using mapping imagery, ESRI ArcGIS and ArcInfo were THE tools to use for such things. Good to know the technology has kept improving and is more user friendly. I’ll have to find some time to investigate the new stuff.

  18. Kristin, Northern CA says:

    Loan wolverine continues to roam Sierra

    “That animal is not part of the now-extinct – as far as we know – Sierran population. It’s a long-distance migrant,” said Jim Patton, curator of mammals at the UC Berkeley Museum of Vertebrate Zoology. “I would just leave it alone.”

    This dude is a downer. Like it’s from another planet or something, jeez… If this wolverine really traveled from Idaho to California in this day in age, whose to say such a thing couldn’t have happened when the odds of not becoming roadkill were better?

  19. Salle says:

    What Is Lost When We Call What Lives and Breathes a ‘Resource’?
    Thoughts on the sterilizing effect language has on hunting and the bloody job of killing what we eat.

  20. Salle says:

    Does Placing a Price Tag on Natural Resources Make Them More Valuable?
    What’s the asking price for bee pollination? The market rate for a wetland’s natural filtration process? A look at the debate over assigning monetary value to the things in nature that allow us to eat, drink and breathe.

  21. Salle says:

    Protecting Western Forests from Global Warming a ‘Moral Issue,’ Gore says
    At an Aspen appearance, Al Gore says the West’s forests are at risk and ‘we have to protect them.’

  22. Salle says:

    Clueless Economists, Smart Ecologists
    David Korten: To successfully address climate change and extreme poverty, the ecology paradigm must replace the traditional economics mindset.

  23. Salle says:

    More Powerful Than We Know: Interview with Tim DeChristopher
    Facing jail time for civil disobedience, Tim DeChristopher on why “we have more than enough power” to stop the fossil fuel industry

  24. william huard says:

    The idiot son KOCHsuckers and their mindless followers at work
    They need to be stopped before they totally ruin this country

  25. Salle says:

    The Most Anti-Environmental Piece of Legislation in History
    Statement of Rebecca Wodder, President of American Rivers

    • Phil says:

      If the general public (not pro-wolfers, etc) hear about this, do you think there would be an extensive out cry towards congress to stop this slaughtering? Aren’t there certain Republicans that would not approve of this/these bills?

  26. william huard says:

    You have to give the Republicans credit- they have balls but they are FU%^&$ crazy. Read the latest about the ten aspects of the walker bill that are part of his Reagan induced hallucination that were mandated when he was elected. I hope Independents are watching these events closely!

  27. Cody Coyote says:

    An 80 percent decline in a major South Dakota Elk herd in and around Custer State Park and Wind Cave National Park , from 1200 animals down to< 200. They've started a helicopter apture and tag study

    NOT due to wolves. Repeat, NOT due to wolves.

    Where have I seen this movie before ? Cody , Wyoming and Sunlight Basin , and the ongoing Absaroka Elk Ecology Study , that's where. ( Coming soon to a theater near you , if you live in the Bitterroots near Lolo ).
    This decline in South Dakota elk herd numbers, issues with cow pregnancy and calf recruitment etc is EEERILY similar to the circumstances in a singular herd unit northwest Wyoming being actively studied ( except our elk herds aren't declining in overall population numbers) . Preliminarily , the Wyoming causal is being attributed to vegetation , habitat , and drought as the primary driver of poorer elk calf recruitment, with some help from Grizzly bears , and the Big White Secret of overhunting of bulls by humans, so far understated. Wolves are being shown to play a minor role in Wyoming.

    It sounds like some in South Dakota want to point the finger of blame at Cougars , but I'm not so sure about cougars being a major factor; more like a secondary or merely opportunistic reason for calf numbers plunging. Black Hills cougars have plenty of deer and even mountain sheep for prey.

    It keeps coming back to habitat , not predation. The Anti-Wolf Faux Science crowd is going to have a hard time explaining South Dakota, IMHO

    • Salle says:

      It was those killer jackrabbits!! It was revealed to me in a prophetic dream… science has nothing to do with it…
      just kidding.

    • Phil says:

      Cody: Yes, the anti-wolf society will have a hard time explaining this one, but that does not mean they will not try and believe what benefits their agenda. I wonder how they will do the math? 0 wolves kill how many elk? Hmmmmmm I don’t know, maybe they have a better solution to this.

      Salle: Those damn jackrabbits. I guess they are the new face of competition and fear to those hunters.

    • Phil says:

      Cody: True about the cougars. Cougars do not live in social group settings like wolves, therefore; the risk is at a higher level of taking down an elk then the rewards are. Deer are more geared for their survival, but I have never been to the Dakotas.

  28. jon says:

    The fall and rise of the Western wolf

    ““People say, you brought in this non-native wolf and now it has displaced or killed off our old native wolves that lived here. We killed those in the 1930s and generally speaking there was no viability any longer,” said Carter Niemeyer, a retired wolf recovery coordinator for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
    Niemeyer said there are minor genetic differences between the old and new wolves, but they are the same species. “I do not believe this wolf is any bigger, any meaner or any different,” he said.”

    • Immer Treue says:


      Quite a bit of this rhetoric derives from Cat Ubrigkit and her book. The whole notion stems from numerous observations of larger canids, and the occasional wolf shot or hit by auto.

      Semantics come into play with were there no wolves or were there no viable populations of wolves in the Rockies. No real studies were undertaken to determine if a vestigial population of wolves remained in the US Rockies, or if the wolves were dispersers from Canada.

      I’m about a quarter of the way through her book, and hat seems to be the way it is headed. I’ll provide a full review upon my completion with her book.

      • jon says:

        thank you immer. can’t wait to hear your review.

      • SEAK Mossback says:

        I took a peek at her book in West Yellowstone last fall. It seems like the photo(s) I remember of supposed residual wolves in her book, as well as one photographed in Yellowstone in the late-1960s and two that I saw in the Lamar in February 1969, a couple of miles east of the ranger station (and got some rather poor super-8 footage of, having my leg in a cast and trouble getting out of the truck quickly) — they all had coloration similar to photos I’ve seen of those from Minnesota and that general area. Some darker guard hairs and more brown coloration mixed in. That’s not to say that all of them weren’t at least part dog or something. I just know for sure the two I saw were not coyotes by appearance or behavior. In that depth of snow, coyotes would just “swim out of the way” and the turn back and look at you. These much larger, darker guys took off together and crossed directly across the valley toward the Mirror Plateau.

        If they were wolves that were seen in and around Yellowstone on occasion from the late-60s until re-introduction, I wonder if they came from the Great Lakes population based on the prevailing color pattern. Of course, that probably wouldn’t have made them significantly less “lethal” because even inbred Isle Royale wolves take down moose.

      • Immer Treue says:

        Color doesn’t mean anything as a pack of eight I saw in MN, closeup, and I wasn’t eaten, ran from silver white to black. Its in the genes. I’ve seen singletons black and grey.

      • Immer Treue says:

        In terms of Isle Royale and colors, to the best of my knowledge, Isle Royale wolves have been variations of the standard grey of grey wolves. I could/might be wrong, but of all the pictures I’ve seen of Isle Royale wolves, I don’t recall ever seeing a black wolf.

        With the amount of malice directed toward wolves in the NRM states, I would not conclude that any “viable” population of wolves remained. The occasional disperser, and perhaps the occasional breeding, but no sustainable population of wolves were ever established. That’s why wolves were brought back above the table. In terms of what has been coined a remaining C. irremotus population, I am more than skeptical.

        Hell, a wolf was shot in Missouri last year. Does that mean there are wolves in MO? There was even one shot in Illinois last year.

      • Elk275 says:


        I remember in the Billings Gazette in 1969 or the winter of 1970, a picture of a dark wolf in the Lamar Valley. The picture of the wolf was taken by Gene Wade who built the Watu Lodge in Cooke City which is now the Soda Butte Lodge. I do have a good memory.

      • SEAK Mossback says:

        Immer Treue –
        I’m just going by photos I’ve seen from the upper midwest of wolves with a little more brown in them than seems to be in the mix of the introduced northern Rockies wolves, although I agree there are probably all color possibilities in both areas. Here are a couple of examples of “Minnesota wolves” that have the type of coloration I’m talking about but haven’t noticed much in the Yellowstone wolves.
        Animals certainly did appear in the NRM region that had the appearance of wolves. About that same year, I went to the Slough Creek patrol cabin with the Boy Scouts and people on that trip saw a very large dark canid as well, although I missed it. When we showed the NPS our footage, they gave us a copy of a black and white photo of a running”wolf” that somebody else had recently taken about the same time — might even have been by the same guy Elk mentioned. I wouldn’t be too terribly surprised if occasional animals made it to the GYE from either area — Alberta-BC or Minnesota, even though they were under more pressure pre-ESA in those areas. From what I’ve heard from my father-in-law and other old-timers, wolves were really never knocked down that much in Angle Inlet and some other parts of northern Minnesota although a pilot or two in that area shot them opportunisitically from the air. Yellowstone would have been heaven for any wolves that made it there before it was fully re-occupied.

        Elk — Ralph Huckaba owned the Watuk when I spent time in Cooke.

      • Salle says:

        In my travels in the YNP area and from talking with locals who showed me pictures, I have seen that there are so many varieties in coloration that you could see a wolf of almost any color combination there. I have seen pictures of wolves in Island Park that were dark reddish brown with a little light buff coloration underneath, wolves from Lamar Valley that were a rusty black and all variations of gray to nearly white and actually white – looking.


        Hell, a wolf was shot in Missouri last year. Does that mean there are wolves in MO? There was even one shot in Illinois last year.

        I think it was determined that it ~ the animal in MO ~ wasn’t a wolf and was probably either a big dog or a dog/wolf hybrid. Dispersers can go a longer way than one might expect, doesn’t mean that they comprise the status of a “breeding pair”.

      • Immer Treue says:

        Seak M,

        OK I get what you are saying. MN wolves, by obsevation and photos may have a bit more brown in them than NRM wolves. Regional variation? Habitat a bit different.

        During Winter camping trips the reason for (natural selection)color/variations of wolves becomes obvious. Everything is a shade of white to grey(s) to black. Green doesn’t even really appear on cloudy days.

        May have jumped the gun on my comment because on some of the anti-sites they talk about the black wolves… Black wolves are in MN. Really neat looking when you see them up close with those golden eyes.

      • jon says:

        immer, how big are the wolves in MN? How is the deer population doing in MN? Are hunters blaming the wolves for lower deer #s? We know the biggest wolf ever killed was around 175 pounds. What is the record for the biggest coyote ever?

      • Immer Treue says:


        Adult female gray wolves in northern Minnesota weigh between 50 and 85 pounds, and adult males between 70 and 110 pounds. Though I had no scale to weigh the ones I have observed, I would feel they fit into these parameters. Based on my dog~95 pounds, with shorter legs and not as heavily muscled (ok he’s getting older) I’d say the ones i have seen fit into the 80-100 lb range.

        I did see a small skinny wolf a few years back that had mange, and on the road this year, a quick glimpse of a smallish wolf, possibly a coyote, but I’ve not heard or seen many coyotes in that neck of the woods. Not saying that they aren’t there, it’s just I haven’t observed any.

      • SEAK Mossback says:

        Salle –
        Regarding the “wolf” killed in Missouri in 2010, I think you are right about it being something else. However, there was one killed there in 2001 and turned in that had a radio collar and ear tag from the UP in Michigan.

        I am not trying to make any point about the earlier “wolves” seen in the GYE other than to say the ones I have seen in photos and in person in one instance did not quite match in my mind the more common colorations I see now. Whether it was because they were inbred or half german sheppard, from a different region or just a small representation of where they came from, I have no idea. I’ve looked at that old super-8 footage again and again, and other than seeing the color and form of one of that stopped briefly broadside in the willows along the Lamar, there is just no way to make the images in that old film any clearer. At least it does provide a good reference for 1969 willow growth!

      • In my view, all of the the so-called native wolves in the NRM of the United States were wiped out by 1940.

        Occasionally sightings and actual specimens in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, were almost certainly migrants from Canada because the capability of a wolf migrating a thousand miles is now well documented.

        It is possible there was an illegal release of a few wolves around Yellowstone in the 1970s.

        The idea of a small “native wolf” persisting in Idaho or Wyoming that was almost never seen, didn’t seem to eat elk or cattle and made no noise is a rancher’s wet dream.

      • jon says:

        I’m very well aware of the claims made by wolf haters Ralph regarding the “native” wolf. Ed Bangs said it best, “we weren’t really weighing the wolves when we were killing them”. If the wolves didn’t make any noise or didn’t eat livestock, why were they killed off? The wolves were never seen because they weren’t very many of them.

  29. Jerry Black says:


    • Daniel Berg says:

      Even more disturbing are the WA wolf bills that are currently proposed….

      There is a hearing on Friday, March 4th at 8AM for HB 1109. I think you can speak for 3 minutes.

      • WM says:


        I have not been following what is going on in the WA Legis.
        What problems, do you see with HB 1109?

      • Daniel Berg says:

        HB 1109 would require the legislature to approve or reject the WDFW recommended final EIS and gray wolf conservation and management plan as a whole. The approval would have to be in the form of a joint memorial.



        After reading through HB1108, which was put forth by most of the same legislators, HB1109 looks to me like an additional attempt to radicalize wolf management in Washington State. By requiring legislative approval, it’s another opportunity to allow meddling by legislators that appear to not want wolves in Washington State, period.

        Do you have any opinions on what the legislators who put forth these bills are trying to accomplish? I’m still relatively new to political strategy of this nature.

      • WM says:


        Since the D’s have control of the House in WA state, these bills may not make it through, if that is any consolation. However, the prime sponsors of both bills are: 1) an R from the Yakima/Kittitas Counties area, who seems to be a pretty much middle of the road guy, with a traininig and experience in land use management and development. He is also a cattleman; 2) an R from Spokane, who already has wolves in his district; 3) an R from east of Olympia that includes west side Cascade elk country north of Mt. Rainier. 4) and 3 more R’s from the Eastern part of the state in areas sure to get wolves first, and where there are cattle and elk.

        I know nothing about either bill, but my recollection of the WA Draft wolf plan was that it contemplated lots of monitoring and translocation to control wolf populations that grow too much or get in trouble in this complex mosaic of arguably suitable habitat and human activities, AND ensure genetic diversity. It also contemplated a very handsome livestock damage reimbursement program. Now the money to do all this will have to come from the Legislature through appropriation year after year after year to keep the program going.

        Without more, I will suggest that HB 1109, which requires a legislative buyoff on the final Wolf Management Plan, is a way of keeping the plan visible including its fiscal implications, especially during these lean budget times. It may, as well, be a bit of a warning to the Dept of Fish and Wildlife not to get too creative or go to far with some lefty – we want wolves everywhere when they show up plan- as has been advocated by some commentors in the EIS phase.

        HB 1108 is more troubling, in that it seems not that different from the far right political statements we have been seeing from other Western states, in which the Constitutionality of wolf reintroduction is being questioned, as well focusing on the feds, with the who needs to be responsible and pay for management and damage caused by whatever wolves show up from the NRM or down from Canada. Mostly sabre rattling, but I expect the text of the bill is also a means of educating otherwise clueless urban D legislators to some of the complexity of what has gone wrong in the NRM, with a warning that it could easily happen in WA, too. The message here is don’t let it happen.

        And what better timing than being able to point to this whole NRM fiasco, and watch it unravel in front of their eyes. I am not too sure what Gov. Gregoire would do if either bill passes. She is a very smart governor, with some common sense – I would venture a guess she might sign the legislative oversight bill, and veto the “stick it to the feds” bill.

      • Daniel Berg says:


        I was told that HB1109 did not pass out of the House Committee on Agriculture and Natural Resources prior to the House policy cutoff and that it “appeared” to be dead for the session.

        I’m not sure exactly what the hearing scheduled outside the standard time frame for the legislature that I referenced for the House Bill means if it’s already dead for the session?

      • jon says:

        Daniel, have you heard anything about the using hunting dogs on cougars bill? I hope that that doesn’t pass, but who knows. The people voted to ban using hunting dogs to chase down wildlife.

      • WM says:


        WA HB 1109 is scheduled for hearing before the full Ag Committee on Friday, according to the House schedule.

        HB 1108 also still seems to be alive.

      • Daniel Berg says:

        Senate Bill 5356 Has been placed on second reading by the rules committee.
        House Bill 1124 Has been passed to the rules committe for a second reading.
        So they are both still alive, I’m not sure how much of a chance their is for passage.

        Thanks for the info. The email I received this morning was obviously not updated. It must have been generated after the opposition orginally tried to stall the House Bill.

        HB1108 I oppose completely, but the more I think about it, the more torn I am over HB1109. With a mostly D legislature, I’m not sure thances are very high that they will push for eradication of wolves in WA. It’s a different dynamic than ID,MT, or WY with much larger urban centers. I think that some of the rural legislators will use it as a tool to continually try and radicalize wolf management, I’m just not sure how much success they would have?

        Could there be a benefit? Would it be an opportunity for legislators to maintain fiscal discipline with wolf management? Could it have a moderating influence on wolf management? I’m concerned about this kind of stuff because I do feel at times that wolf advocates in various positions may have pushed things too far, too quickly. I’m just not sure how much of a positive impact this bill could have in mitigating overreach. When I try to analyze the potential benefits vs. the potential drawbacks, things seem to get more and more complicated!

    • Phil says:

      Are the 3 dead wolves, and possibly a 4rth, the result of poaching?

      • Daniel Berg says:

        Three of them were poached and one of them is a probable poach. The probable being the alpha female who disappeared along with her collar.

  30. wolfsong says:

    Is this the same depredation that Carter investigated? Grimm sure is wasting time and taxpayer money.

    • Ken Cole says:

      No, this is a different area. Southeast Idaho instead of southwest Idaho.

      But yes, Grimm is wasting money. Who knows how many other operations are taking place like this.

      • Phil says:

        I would suspect that no matter if it is a waste of money that he wants to continue this “search” just to eliminate one or two more wolves. If they do catch the one or so, I would not think twice to bet that it wouldn’t be the right one(s). They probably wouldn’t find the right one but kill any wolf and back it up behind the livestock predation reason.

  31. Phil says:

    I may be wrong, but it would be a uphill travel for wolves to go from the Great Lakes region, especially from Isle Royale, to the NRM region. It could happen, but probably unlikely. Photos and sights of wolves in NRM in the 60s, 70s or whatever decade after their extinction and before their reintroduction I have been taught came from Canada, but I maybe missing a step in the conversation here.
    Immer: Most of Isle Royale wolves have been in the standard coloration of grey of the grey wolves, but a recent pack that dispersed after their alpha male and female were killed by a rival pack (2010). The male was black. Usually grey wolves in the midwest (timberwolves) have that grey coloration to them, but I am pretty sure there are some with the genetic codes to give off the black coloration. Just like yourself, I have never seen a black wolf on Isle Royale, but I have not been researching the island since the late 60s (wasn’t even close to being born yet) when Dave Mech first began the research project that is still occuring through Rolf Peterson.

    • I’ve spoken to some old-time outfitters before the Frank Church River-Of-No-Return Wilderness was established and certainly before the FWS’ “experimental” reintroduction (nothing to experimental about reintroducing an endangered species, just political), and each one remembers seeing an occasional lone wolf in the backcountry. Nothing to do with Canada, this is Central Idaho, but more likely remnant critters that just never crossed paths with the government exterminators.

      • Phil says:

        Yes, but Larry, would it be more likely that the spotted black wolf in Idaho in the late 60s came from the region of Canada connecting to Idaho or the Great Lakes? I am not saying it wouldn’t occur, because if it did then there would be a better chance of having a pack(s) in North and South Dakota. As far as I know, these two states have viable ecosystems for wolves.

      • jon says:

        Larry, I believe they were gray wolves that came over from Canada.

      • Elk275 says:

        In 1939, my father was 15 and leading a pack string down the Stillwater River which is no more than 25 miles from the Lamar Valley. Standing of the trail in the woods was big dark wolf, he has refers to it as a Timber Wolf.

      • jon says:

        elk, a timberwolf and gray wolf are the same animal.

      • Elk275 says:


        A sage grouse and a sage hen are the same, but I have always called them sage hens. But how would you know as you have never seen a wolf.

      • jon says:

        whether someone has seen a wolf or not does not change the fact that a gray wolf and a timberwolf are the same animal elk.

    • Immer Treue says:


      Just looked over the Isle Royale Reports 2008/09 and 2009/10 and nowhere do they comment about a black wolf.

    • MAD says:

      Immer Treue – Put em together and they can breed and produce viable offspring = same species

      This statement is factually incorrect when discussing taxonomic classifications. For example: Polar bears and Grizzly bears have been observed to have bred in the wild (and captivity) producing viable offspring, yet their genetic ancestors diverged approx. 150,000 years ago. They are indeed classified as separate species of bears. Similarly, Paul Wilson has definitively shown through genetics that the Eastern Timber Wolf, the Red Wolf and the Coyote (all separate species) diverged from the Gray Wolf thousands of years ago, yet they all can interbreed. The fact that animals can interbreed is not dispositive that they are the same species. Coyotes and dogs can interbreed, coyotes and wolves can interbreed, wolves and dogs can interbreed; that doesn’t make them the same species of Canid.

      And Jon, that website ( does not reflect the latest published, peer-reviewed biological research. In fact, it seems like it’s geared for high school students and I really wouldn’t quote that as an authority.

      • jon says:

        Look at mad. Does that website count?

      • Immer Treue says:

        Taxonomy is taking lots of twists and turns. Enter molecular biology and gene sequencing, a lot of this species controversy will disappear. Much regional variation between different animals of the same species.

        True speciation events take quite some time to develop, unless some favorable mutation enters into the picture. Grizzly bears and Polar bears simply have not diverged that much. Recent studies indicate some Polar bears are no longer taking to the ice, or at least spending less time on it, and coming into contact with grizzly/brown bear.

        Habit may = some difference, mating rituals, food procurement, etc.

        Whites are very different in terms of the indiginous folks of the Canadian and Alaskan far north in terms of what we eat, and what we don’t eat, stature, good procuement. They eat very little vegetable matter, east a diet high in fat content… with none of the ill effects this diet has on us white folk. Same species.

        As things continue to warm on this planet, and if some super bug wallops the “dominate” wallops species, it would be interesting to see what happens.

      • MAD says:, which is run by the International Wolf Center in Minnesota is a reputable website and has a lot of good info. Nice pic of Dave Mech doing some radio telemetry.

        I’m not trying to be a wiseass or anything, but there are inaccuracies on that website also. The page they have dedicated to the Eastern Timber Wolf (ETW) has info that’s 10 years old and does not reflect recent genetic research. When my wife worked at the American Museum of Natural History in NYC she and I conferred with Paul Wilson, who during the last 15 years has explored the genetics of the ETW, and the Eastern Coyote extensively.

        Science is constantly revising classifications due to new research. I have about 50 peer-reviewed biology articles that have been published over the last decade that support what I’m saying. My wife is the PhD biologist, not I. But I have been beat over the head many times by her to correctly cite the most recent research because it’s rapidly changing. I’m not picking a fight just for argument’s sake.

      • Immer Treue says:


        Neither am I. Taxonomy is “relatively” new as a discipline among the sciences, and the great thing about the sciences are they are self correcting. Cladistics was all the rage and then walla, we can sequence genes and see how really similar so many of the so called species really are.

        I know I can’t hold a candle to a trained taxonomist if it were to come to a one on one debate, but we are still looking at this in terms of “human time”. Coyotes and wolves dogs can interbreed and produce fertile off spring, which would seem to indicate that the divergence has occurred not too long ago.

        I’d hedge a guess that the time span involved between homo sapiens in Africa, and some of the other places on Earth is similar to the time of divergence between grizzlies and Polar bears. Just for grins, are we a different species from the Pygmies of Africa?

        Again, this is not to argue. You have made valid points. One of those type of topics where it would be interesting to sit and talk over a few libations. Where I do take difference is the debate about the supposed Canadian grey wolves being different from the group that livd in the NRM states.

      • jon says:

        Immer, have you ever heard that the eastern timberwolf aka Canis lupus lycaon is not a gray wolf? From what I can find, it appears it is a gray wolf, but MAD says it isn’t. Thoughts immer?

      • Immer Treue says:


        It’s splitting hairs. It’s a grey wolf, but with regional variation. Perhaps it’s got a bit of coyote in it’s genome, perhaps not. Even so, the tiny bit of genomic variation betweeen these and those in the NRM states, in my opinion, is insignificant. Perhaps just a ***tad*** smaller than wolves in NRM states, but just as formidible. If they can take down moose, which they do, elk would also be on their dinner platter. Just a regional variation of the Grey wolf.

    • skyrim says:

      well, they ain’t doing so well in my household………………

    • Phil says:

      Larry: I agree with you that it does not make a species similar just because you can put them together they can mate and provide viable offspring. On the other hand, look at behaviors with regards to social structures, hunting, defensive mechanisms, etc. They are exact in almost all measures. Great example to prove your point in the Grizzly bear and Polar bear.

  32. PointsWest says:

    I wonder if development in Teton Basin will pickup again this coming summer…

    Huntsman Springs – Top Awarded Golf Course 2011

  33. Phil says:

    I cannot post the website because it was actually emailed to me, but here is late news from the Dutcher’s in regards to what is currently occuring with the wolf delisting bills.
    “Representative Mike Simpson of Idaho managed to insert a very damaging paragraph (Section 1713) into HR1, the bill that was just passed in the House and has been sent to the Senate regarding the federal budget. His paragraph, in classic legislative manner that obscures its intent, calls for removing wolves from the Endangered Species Act without mentioning the word “wolf” even once. It’s a sly way of blindsiding Senators who don’t understand the implications of his amendment. If you would like to read what we are explaining here, we have included Simpson’s Section 1713 of HR 1 at the bottom of this document.” They also sent me a list of the names of representatives to call with their office numbers. Udall and Cardin were one of them.

    • Phil says:

      Some may of commented about this topic prior, but believe the previous forum on the topic was the wolf delisting bills being attached to others that would definately be passed, while this one does not refer directly to wolves.

  34. william huard says:

    Elk 275
    I was struck by your comment to Jon about “How would you know as you have never seen a wolf” nonsense. So only people that have seen wolves in the wild have credibility on the issue? I know you think your views on wildlife are mainstream, but they are not

    • Phil says:

      william: If that is what elk believes, then why are wolf experts like Doug Smith and Ed Bangs not credible to the anti-wolf hunters?

    • Elk275 says:

      I was just giving a Jon bit of BS. If one really cared about what was going on with wolves in the Northern Rockies, maybe, just maybe they would fly out here and rent a truck and spend several months observing, viewing and learning, Mike does and I respect him for that. If someone wants to do something then there is a way to do it. That is my opinion.

      What are main stream wildlife views? Wiliam your views are not main stream in the Northern Rocky Mountains.
      Are we talking a countywide view point, a state side view point, a regional view point or a national view point? In the Northern Rocky Mountain states; the main view point is a yearly surplus of ungulates that will be available to both resident and non resident hunters in the fall, the larger the numbers the better. This is not going to change for many, many years.

      I have always loved wildlife and I love to hunt elk each fall. What I fear is that there is going to be a backlash that will go beyond wolves. Read this: people who years ago would have supported this action now are going to be less supportive and some of that will be because of wolves.

      • william huard says:

        Gee whiz Elk 275- with visonaries like John Brenden and Joe Read in Montana, my views whether you agree with them or not are at least rooted in 21st century thought.

  35. WM says:

    It would appear three Republican House Congressional types in MN are doing some advocating of their own to remove the Great Lakes wolves from the ESA by amending the law. The 8th District represented by a new guy, Chip Cravaack, includes the heart of GL wolf country in the very NE part.

    Where will wack job Michelle Bachman, and the remaining House delegation come out on the issue? And what will the D Senators do?

  36. Phil says:

    WM: Unlike the bills to delist the NRM wolves, I do not mind Minnesota’s bill to delist wolves in the Great Lakes region. The government of the Great Lakes states wants wolves delisted for the purpose of ranchers, ungulate and wolves themselves. The current plan in Minnesota is not to have a immediate public hunt on wolves, but to wait 5 years to even think about a public hunt. The wait for 5 years is to see how the wolf population responds to the delisting in which only wildlife officials and ranchers are able to kill a wolf that is a problem to livestock, not hunters. The governments of Idaho, Wyoming and Montana implementing an immediate public hunt on wolves who are twice as small in overall population in the region then Minnesota has shows that they do not want to delist in the NRM for the benefit of all, but to satisfy the hunters and ranchers who are anti of the wolves. I myself do not want to see the Great Lakes wolves delisted, but it is much more acceptable then the NRM state’s delisting.

    • WM says:


      You do realize, of course, that what is proposed by these MN legislators is a change in the ESA law, rather than just a delisting under the existing law and regulatory process which the states have labored under for the past umpteen years, yes?

      Recall the the GL wolf delisting has been derailed by litigation nearly as much as the NRM, and that is why they are making such a proposal. Also recall that MN thought their wolves would have been delisted as many as 8 years ago, so there is some tension regarding whether they would wait the full 5 years before hunting wolves there, or seek to amend their plan. WI has already made rumblings to do this.

      If the ESA changed to exclude GL wolves they could do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted since they would have state management, which is the goal.

      I do not have a bill number, and have not seen the proposed legislation, but this would likely be possible, if I understand the news release correctly.

      • Immer Treue says:

        Wolves have been removed from MN populations over the years by MN DNR. I’ve got a pelt for my classes through the IWC. Obvious leg hold trap damage, with entrance and exit holes. 57 pound female.

      • Phil says:

        Immer: “IWC”? International Wolf Center, right? Where exactly in Minnesota is the center? “Obvious leg hold trap damage, with entrance and exit holes. 57 pound female.”? What do you mean by this?

        WM: As Immer stated, wolves in Minnesota are not fully protected as they are in Wisconsin and Michigan. Yes, I understand that for a while now the region has been trying to delist wolves but have been unsuccessful, but that does not have any barings on the 5 year period wait after they are delisted to possibly propose a public hunt on them. I believe the tension you are speaking of on whether they will wait the 5 years or not is coming from hunters and hunting organizations using the same “They should have been delisted a while ago” example. I am with you in that the states could do whatever they wanted if the ESA excluded the Great Lakes wolves, but the governments in the GL region do not have the antimosity towards wolves as the NRM government does. My state of Michigan representatives (Levin, Snyder, Peters, Stabenow) want wolves delisted, but they still disregard the ariel killings of wolves in Alaska, and believe to a point that the NRM wolves should not be delisted.

      • timz says:

        It’s in a town called Ely, on the edge of Superior National Forest. Look at a map, find Duluth and go straight north and a hair east.

      • Immer Treue says:


        I put together a predator prey study of the wolves and moose on Isle Royale. Took a while to get all the stuff I needed. Some I found, other things were supplied by the International Wolf Center (IWC) of Ely, MN.

        It’s easy to get pelts, but I did not want to feed the supply and demand for them, so I corresponded with the IWC. At first, they sent me a “wolf learning box”. with assorted wolf and moose parts. I used it as a model, and more.

        Sooooooooooooooooo, I received a wolf skull and pelt from the IWC for my IR unit. The wolf was a 57 pound female (jon, they aren’t all big) I guess the leg hold trap, front leg, destroyed the integrity of the skin for that leg, so no paw on that leg, and the wolf was shot. Shoulder to shoulder entrance wound small exit on other shoulder larger.

        I explain to students that things like this have to happen in order to avoid people, who are adversely affected by wolves don’t take matters into their own hands. The attempt is to make a true impression on students that wolves are controversial, and that not all people like them, but in the same vane, the kids understand that wolves do belong…..

  37. PointsWest says:

    Running Out of Time to Kill Wolves…and it looks so easy in the movies I saw:

    …me thinks wolves will be very difficult to remove from Idaho.

  38. jdubya says:

    Can anyone direct me to a site that list of the number of bison killed after leaving Yellowstone during the winter in the past few years?

  39. Woody says:

    In an email:
    Less than an hour ago the U.S. Senate shut down HR 1! This budget bill, a Continuing Resolution, had seemingly countless riders attached to it, including the one written by Idaho Representative Mike Simpson. Without ever mentioning wolves even once, Representative Simpson’s rider (Section 1713), would have removed wolves from the protections of the Endangered Species Act and would have also prohibited the issue from any future judicial review. Your calls helped bring to the attention of the Senators reviewing this 359 page resolution what the cryptically written Section 1713 was about. Your efforts helped, your opinions were heard.

    Wolves are no longer hidden in this budget bill, but it is eminent, that in the very near future there will be similar legislation introduced either in the form of another rider, like this one, or in the form of a freestanding bill, where once again the protection of wolves will be under attack again. So the battle over wolves on Capitol Hill continues, but today is a good day for wolves.

    If you wish to follow up and thank the Senators you contacted for today’s outcome, we have reattached the list of phone numbers below.

    And again, we thank you, and the wolves of America thank you as well!

  40. Daniel Berg says:

    “Wolves may be in parts of area”
    “Tracks have been found eight miles east of Milton-Freewater”

    • timz says:

      What’s with these lame brains, don’t they do their homework before they introduce bills like this.

      • mikarooni says:

        No, which is why they really are lame brains. Did you think the lame brain thing was just a joke?

    • Nancy says:

      Lets think about this. Wolves are responsible for a fraction of livestock losses in the west. Disease, neglect, respiratory and calving problems make up the majority of losses (and of course that pesky little brother of the wolf – wiley coyote – I mean why else would WS be taking out close to 100,000 of them every year?)

      Maybe instead of gunning wolves down for their pelts, for a pathetic sum to enhance the “livestock loss fund” livestock owners could take all “their” carcasses that are normally buried or tossed in a landfill. And wait for it……. create a viable, profitable business?

      I mean those “potential hides” might just fetch a tidy price for someone thinking about a startup business. (google cow hides or sheep fleece for sale on the internet) it would be another avenue for those that work with leather and wool 🙂 I would think.

      • jon says:

        Nancy, I hear all different claims like ranchers pay for predator control and others that taxpayers foot the bill for predator control done by wildlife services, but who really pays for predator control?

      • Elk275 says:

        Let’s call it “Nancy’s Rendering Plant”. If you have a dead animal on your farm in Southwest Montana, “Just Call Nancy”, 1-800-BLOATED, sheep, goats, cattle, horses and pigs picked up free of charge. She will be right out to your ranch/farm picking up the bloated carcass.

        When my parents had a medium sized cattle and quarter horse ranch once or twice a year they would call the rendering plant and they came out and picked up the carcass free of charge. I can remember helping load up a horse and cow in the summer heat. No Thanks. Today they charge a hundred plus dollars for what was a free service 40 years ago and there are very few outfits that do this type of work and that is a problem.

  41. Nancy says:

    Who said anything about “free of charge” Elk. Already been doing that for years when it comes to WS and predator control. And if its “bloated’ ya just haven’t been paying much attention to your livestock right?

  42. Elk275 says:

    ++And if its “bloated’ ya just haven’t been paying much attention to your livestock right?++

    That was not our case. By the time the truck came hours later on a hot summer day the animal was already bloating. If an animal had to be put down, then it was wise to wait for the truck to arrive.

    Agree, no use doing it free in these economic times. Also a fuel surcharge is warranted.

  43. Phil says:

    Immer: That is very intriguing. Is it legal to trap wolves in Minnesota? I did not think it was, but it seems like that is what happened to the wolf which you now posess it’s pelt. I know you are not the one who trapped her, but she was trapped then shot, right? Was it done by wildlife officials? Was the wolf a problem for livestock? I am trying to understand the entire situation because, although I could be wrong, the IWC is very for wolves and their protection, but to hold a pelt killed by a wolf that was trapped and shot does not serve a purpose as to their role and purpose with wolves.

    That is a great job that you do in educating kids on wolves and their situations in regards with humans. I want to do something similar, but I want to use my research in the education process.

    When I did my first internship at the local zoo, the zoo had a tiger pelt and polar bear pelt. Each was not trapped or hunted, instead they had been long residents of the zoo that the zoo is using their pelts to educate the public on.

    • Immer Treue says:


      The IWC is for wolf education. They developed an entire curriculum about wolves, with all the roll players involved. Wolves get into trouble in MN and they are removed from the population. If you want we can go on about this tomorrow, time for me to hit the hay.

      It’s **one** of the many reasons the situation has not “blown” up as in the NRM states. To the best of my knowledge the pelt I have was an animal removed because it got into repeated trouble. Shot with a DNR tag. She has helped educate kids about wolves for the past~ 12 years, and the IWC and MNDNR made it possible. She was a problem, but she did not die in vain.

      • jon says:

        I get that, but that is really absurd immer that wolves are getting killed for being wolves. The problem is not problem wolves, it’s problem people. How are wolves killing people’s pets? Are the pets owners not watching over their pets? How hard is it to carefully watch over your pet? I don’t view wolves as problems. They are doing what naturally comes to them. it is people and their stupidity that is causing this situations to happen imho.

      • Immer Treue says:


        the argument of wolves just being wolves is what got this wolf removed. There is nothing absurd about it. Long ago, the wolves were here first…. But since enactment of the ESA wolves have made a great come back in MN, to the point where dispersing wolves have populated WI and MI.

        There are no open ranges on federal land that I’m aware of in north east MN. Folks have acreage backed up to 10’s of thousand of acres of county and state lands. Most of the wolves cause no problems, and a good many people in MN are fully aware of wolves and understand them, unlike the hysteria of the NRM states.

        I’ve known of people to lose a dog to wolves, and chalk it up to experience. Wolves just being wolves. Others take it a bit differently. Even though there are folks who complain, MN has it pretty “together” with their wolves. The ***few*** wolves percentage wise that get removed have no impact on the overall wolf population, and folks don’t get their panties in a bunch. The wolves win in the long run, and if you are for wolves, that’s what you want.

        I’ve said it before on other forums, and this one: “Do I want to see wolves killed-no, but I understand that it must happen in the times in which we live. As long as human populations continue to grow and expand, wildlife will suffer. In MN, thus far, a few have been sacrificed for the many, and most Minesotans are very content with this.

      • JB says:


        To follow up on Immer’s response: Wolves that become problems for people will (and in my opinion should) be killed–even when people are to blame. This isn’t to say that people should not be responsible for their actions; rather, it is an acknowledgment that it is bad for everyone to have a wolf (or any large carnivore) on the landscape once it has become a “problem” animal (whether that is through food conditioning, or killing of pets and livestock).

        I encourage you to read David Baron’s “The Beast in the Garden” to understand the potential consequences of allowing such animals to roam.

      • jon says:

        It’s like we are trying to tame wild animals and change their natural behaviors. Although people may see it as bad or wrong, wolves killing other dogs is a normal behavior of wolves and it’s absurd they are killed for displaying their natural behaviors and instincts. A wolf obviously does not know that it’s wrong to kill someone’s pet, yet they are killed for it. All they rely on is their natural instinct and yet sometimes we kill them for it. The same goes with wolves killing livestock. We are killing wolves for displaying their natural behaviors and instincts. I think people are just trying to find any reason they can just to kill wolves. To kill a wolf just because it killed someone’s pet which the wolf just sees as another dog (competition) and a cow which it just sees a food source does not make a helluva lot sense. I also believe these are problems that can be prevented by people, but it seems as if it would cause a major inconvenience to them carefully watching over their pets and livestock.

      • jon says:

        immer, no matter what the wolves do, they will always be looked at as a problem from special interest groups. Even when they kill deer and other game animals, they are looked at as a major problem from groups of people like hunters for instance. No matter what they do, they will always be looked at as a problem by those who particularly dislike wolves for one reason or another. Wolves just can’t win. Wolves are killed just for displaying their natural behavior and instinct.

    • Carl says:

      Phil, Wolves here in Minnesota recieve the same protection as wolves in MI and WI under the ESA. The wolves that are removed are those that are killing livestock or pets.

      • Phil says:

        Carl: Wolves in Michigan and Wisconsin have full protection (Endangered), in Minnesota they are (Threatened).

        Immer: I now see what you are saying. Unlike JB, I do not believe that a wolf should be killed due to human interference of that wolf’s behaviors, because the wolf is acting in a instinctive way. But, what else can be done about the wolf? I think the education process from certain people to rest of society on animals like wolves will not only benefit humans, but also wolves, etc.
        jon: I also understand your side. How can we automatically change a natural behavior “wolves being wolves” for our benefits? Wolves do not understand the human vocabulary. We are so intelligent that the only way we know how to solve a problem with wildlife is to kill them. That kind of seems like a prehistoric way of thinking.

      • jon says:

        We can’t Phil, but we do try and it never works. To try and change wolves and their natural behaviors/instincts is not letting them be truly wild. To say that a wolf needs to die because it’s killed a pet or cow is not letting these wolves be wild. This is a people issue and people need to start doing the right thing like carefully watching over their pets and livestock and these “problems? although will still happen will happen less and less imo. You will never make wolves stop killing cows or dogs. It just isn’t going to happen. It’s part of the wolf’s natural behavior to go after ANY ANIMAL they want whether it be for competition purposes or food purposes.

      • Immer Treue says:


        I think you have a pretty good take on my feelings for wolves. Therefore:

        Your comment,”It’s part of the wolf’s natural behavior to go after ANY ANIMAL they want whether it be for competition purposes or food purposes.” is most important, and for this reason, wolves must “learn” quickly, or the only alternative is some form of lethal control to help them shy away from people.

        I don’t think there is a wolf advocate out there who doesn’t walk on egg shells in terms of a wolf interaction with a young child. Is it likely to happen, no. Is it possible for this to happen? Sure it is. Then prepare for the sh!t storm that no amount of advocacy will be able to save wolves from.

        We have made absolutely wonderful strides in terms of wolves repopulating some of their once native areas. It’s time to be truly rational about the limits we can expect to put on wolves, without the wolf, through no fault of it’s own inate behavior, becoming it’s own worse enemy.

        I don’t mind wolves living outside my door, and it’s why I’m moving into that type of area. I won’t have young kids or livestock. I’ll have dog(s), and if they wander I’m fully aware of what can happen, but my dog(s) will be trained not to wander. I understand wolves.

        Wolves are moving into areas where people don’t understand them in the GL states. People must be proactive rather than reactive in terms of wolves. I’ve endlessly debated another individual on other sites, and he is nothing more than a broken record in his disdain for wolves, and toward me, even when I have expressed my thoughts that I have shared with you, to him. That is the type of person we are dealing with. The time has come for rational actions with wolves, take a decade or two and see what happens, so that folks can put Little Red Riding Hood to bed, rather than wake her up.

  44. Peter Kiermeir says:

    Last stand for the Amur tiger?

  45. Doryfun says:

    Many on this blog realize how much influence Corporate America has on most all over our environmental situations. Part of the associated problem is “personhood” ascribed to the corporation.
    For an interesting picture of our system, see:
    A couple quotes:
    “Congressional representatives on balance rank among the wealthiest of wealthy Americans and boast financial portfolios that are all but unattainable for most of their constituents,”

    “The most popular investment among congressional members reads as a who’s who list of the most powerful corporate political forces in Washington, D.C. — companies that each spend millions, if not tens of millions of dollars each year lobbying federal officials,”

    What can we do about the “personhood” thing. Well, there is a movement underway to change all of this. “The Supreme Court is misguided in principle, and wrong on the law. In a democracy, the people rule. We Move to Amend.”
    Motion to Amend

    Go to this and sign the petition. I did: :
    ”We the Corporation”:

    • Doryfun,

      In my opinion, we are in a most unusual and disturbing position where non-persons are being considered as persons. The first is the corporation where an organization is legally regarded as a person (actually a person plus because they have powers real people do not have).

      The second is the attempt to turn fertilized human eggs into legal persons even though they lack the essential criterion of individuality, much less that of an individual person. All the cells in a fertilized egg are identical (undifferentiated) until there are about 100 of them.

      • Doryfun says:

        I agree with you Ralph, but what do you think of as a good start to work at changing this situation. Grass roots always have to start somwhere…and this seems a descent place to jump on board and contribute to a snowball in the making.

        Do those folks in congress really represent the best interests of the poeple? That they are where they are, in some remote related way, can be tied into the workings of corporate american – and the liberties given them through the “personhood” thing, is a huge ill discretion, and only contributes more as a problem, rather than a solution. (in my opinion).

    • Jerry Black says:

      Anyone else having trouble downloading or is it my browser?

      • Savebears says:


        I didn’t have any problems getting there, it might be your connection, we have had a hell of a time up north with internet connections the last few weeks.

    • Kayla says:

      Thanks for posting on this. I have not heard a word on this anywhere. Interesting.

    • jon says:

      I don’t know why RH stopped posting on here, but he wrote a very good comment there.

      “Interesting how Native Americans got along with and respected grizzly bears for thousands of years but as soon as white people showed up, the war on grizzlies began. That war is still going on.

      What is it that Natives knew and still know that we don’t?”


  46. Phil says:

    jon: Even if you could change a wolf’s behavior how would it alter its natural way of life? Wolves have to be vicious, strong, intelligent, etc for survival, but if you change their behaviors to a less harsh one would that put their lives in a more vulnerable position? I think so.

    • jon says:

      It’s almost as if we are trying to tame these animals into being creatures that are harmless and don’t cause “problems” like killing pets and livestock, but the fact will always remain the same and that is that wolves are wild unpredictable animals that rely on natural instinct. A wolf does not care about what is right or wrong. That is why I believe that wolves that kill pets or livestock should not be killed. So the questions remains if we don’t kill wolves, what happens? People need to start being more responsible. How are these wolves getting to people’s pets in the first place? Are they letting them roam around unleashed or are they being taken in the pet owner’s yard? An issue like this can be solved by just watching over your pet more carefully and using common sense. As for livestock killing, livestock owners can use non-lethal ways to stop wolves from killing their livestock. there has been quite a few cases in WI where wolves are killing people’s pets and hunting dogs. The hunting dog issue can be solved by not letting hunting dogs run loose in the woods where wolves are.

  47. Savebears says:

    I have not seen this posted, I got an email about this today.

    Three Imnaha Wolves Collared

  48. Doryfun says:

    Enough to make me sick: more wornout red diatribe bs:

    State and Local Officials Decry Administration’s Wild Lands Order
    Cite Job Loss, Economic Impacts, Blocked Energy Production

    WASHINGTON, D.C., March 1, 2011 – Today, the House Committee on Natural Resources held an oversight hearing on the impact of the Administration’s “Wild Lands” order. The Committee heard from Western governors and elected local officials who expressed their concern over the proposed Wild Lands order and its negative impact on jobs, economic growth and American energy production.
    What They Are Saying about the Wild Lands Order:
    “I urge Congress to take back its authority and prevent further development and implementation of Secretary Salazar’s Order. This Order exempts stakeholders, threatens the spirit of collaboration and cooperation, weakens the process, discounts state sovereignty, and sends the message to the citizens of Idaho that the federal government will continue to treat the valuable and diverse open spaces of the West not as lands of many uses, but rather as lands of no use and no access for the people who live and work in Idaho and other western states,” said Idaho Governor C.L. “Butch” Otter.

    For more punishment:

  49. Bob says:

    Just curious if anyone saw the article in Saturday, Feb. 25 Missoulian paper on Indians “Return to hunting rights” in Montana. Story of bison hunt outside Yellowstone park. Not computer smart enough myself to make a link that works so you smarter folks will find the article. Would have though it would have been posted by Ralph.

      • jon says:

        I guess, but lets not forget what the white hunter did to the bison all those decades ago.

      • Elk275 says:

        That is not the argument. One does not shoot a bison in this day and age and leave the entire carcass to rot.

      • WM says:


        If Nez Perce tribal members did, indeed, waste a bison after shooting it, it will be interesting to see how the tribal court addresses the matter. Maybe, because it has gotten some visibility, they will mete out a punishment appropriate to the behavior. My experience is that rarely do tribal courts do much in the way of punishment to deter the conduct. They are inconsistent, and often even worse than justice in non-Indian forums when it comes to poaching.



        Different time, place and issue. Sometimes your imbecilic chatter borders on being just plain annoying.

      • Elk275 says:

        Two years ago the Point Hope Eskimos shot hundreds of caribou in the Western Brooks Range and left them to rot. The Alaska State Troopers and the State of Alaska let a council of elders decide their fate. Nothing was done. The killers cited an old tradition that said if the animal/s did not look good do not eat them. I find it hard that hundreds of July caribou were not fit to eat. I dislike the .223 and cheap ammo.

        If you or I did that, well we would still be sitting in jail and and the fine would be with us the rest of are lives.

      • Daniel Berg says:

        I performed a brief search and couldn’t find any material stating whether any buffalo advocacy groups have come out against the tribal hunts.

      • Nancy says:

        +Montana law prohibits hunters from wasting any part of a game animal, bird or fish that is suitable for food+

        So where does that leave wolves Elk, if hunting is continued down the road on their numbers? Or is there a difference between game animals and “big” game animals?

        Inquiring minds want to know…………..

      • Savebears says:


        The tribes have not come out against or for hunts..

      • WM says:

        Apparently multiple tribes have negotiated to exercise treaty rights to hunt bison as they leave the Park.

        I sense this is a good thing for many reasons.

      • Elk275 says:

        ++Montana law prohibits hunters from wasting any part of a game animal, bird or fish that is suitable for food++ That is the law, but the definition is: for game animals (except mountain lion) all for quarters above the hock, including loin and backstrap are considered suitable for food.

        ++ Or is there a difference between game animals and “big” game animals?”++ One needs to find the defination of game animals.

        ++So where does that leave wolves Elk, if hunting is continued down the road on their numbers++ I think that wolves were similar to mountain lions, they are not considered suitable for food.

    • Bob says:

      Thanks Elk,
      The missoulian article was different though, associated press by Shannon Dininny.

  50. jon says:

    ““They’ve been successful at wiping out a bunch of livestock and hurting a bunch of ranchers,” Klumker said. “As a result, they’ve made a big difference on the livestock industry in Catron County. I don’t think we need them. The early settlers worked very hard to get rid of both the wolf and the grizzly for a very good reason.”

    ““It was a fatal flaw on our part,” Klumker said. Environmentalists “were really crowing and happy that we dropped the case, but we’re going to slam them again. We’re going to file it right back at the dirty bastards.”

    This fellow Tom Klunker is a real piece of work.

    • jon says:

      Klumker said every elk killed by a wolf is one less elk for a hunter. Every year that number will increase with more wolves. “Thank God, the numbers of wolves haven’t increased,” he said. “We’d like to see the wolf gone. It’s hitting our pocketbooks hard. I don’t think there’s a place for wolves in our limited elk population. We call (the wolf recovery program) government-sponsored terrorism.”

    • william huard says:

      He’s just part of that defective gene pool which is Catron County. I talked with a person at the Catron County Board Of commissioners. They all are ranchers talkin about FED interference and them foreign wolves that aren’t even Mexican Wolves. They never heard of the Mcbride lineage

    • Phil says:

      “Piece of work”? This man believes in similar manners towards predators like wolves and grizzly bears as do most ranchers and hunters. I love that statement “The early settlers worked very hard to get rid of both the wolf and grizzly for a very good reason.” Ya, the reason is to satisfy the hunter’s and rancher’s perspective and not for the “good reason”. Didn’t the early settlers also nearly eliminate American Indians? I wonder how he feels about that? Does he believe it was for a good reason?

      • Salle says:

        Didn’t the early settlers also nearly eliminate American Indians? I wonder how he feels about that? Does he believe it was for a good reason?”

        They most certainly did, and they probably feel the same way over a century later. According to these land robbers, it’s their right to object to and thwart any effort to right any of those wrong because they feel that anyone or any living creature that doesn’t meet their approval ~ usually meaning the person or creature in question isn’t of their direct lineage ~ doesn’t qualify as useful or worthy of retention… they consider them to be classified as “varmints” whether human or not. Many still don’t see the Native Americans as human, much like the pope of the 1700s proclaimed, that they are instead sub-human because they aren’t christians and/or not controllable by the ranchers so they can be abused and killed based on that theological point.

        When you’re dealing with those lacking critical thinking skills and the ability to recognize others as equally worthy of air to breathe, it is hard to negotiate anything… they claim that it’s their way or get back on the hiway.

        In this day and age, it begs the question; just what good are these narrow-minded putzes?

      • Doryfun says:

        Leaving a big number of buffalo dead out on the fields, be it yesteryear market hunters of white, or todays Yellowstone carnage by hunters of red, is a disgusting demonstration of “human” behavior. Often white folks, demonize, marginalize, or noblize, native Americans or Indians, ( I forget which one is politically correct these days, maybe indigenous would be better; intent is the important thing) when in fact, no matter our skin color, we are all just humans. We should be able to condemn bad acts when humans commit them, and do what we can to penalize such behavior. To do otherwise is to reward bad behavior.

        Another example comes to mind, when I see human behavior evolve into personal attacks, rather than attacks on the behavior. Part of the reason I ever entered my first comments on this blog, is because it seemed a lot more free of that sort of dead-end tangent. It is much more important to remain on subject to help arrive at the truth of a particular issue to make educated decisions for future actions.

        Recently a post here was taken off line, due to an escalation into questionable tangents, so it seems. (at least from Phil’s guess, and mine too; as I never did get a definitive answer to my question of such). Anyway, without mentioning any names, as it doesn’t matter much, but I think what started it all was a reference to ”eastern white liberals,” in the context of a rather biased negative view. It reflected a form of bigotry, like those that the Klumpker’s of the world represent. And when this kind of bad behavior arise, I do think their behavior (without personal assinations) should be called out on the carpet. To put it into the closet and ignore it, is to either reward it, or allow it to fester, when it will again surface sometime in the future.

        Harmony is inclusive, not exclusive.

      • jon says:

        It really boils my blood when ignorant scum like Mr. Klumker says that wolves and grizzlies were wiped out for a good reason. People like him have no respect for wildlife. It wasn’t for a good reason. It was for a selfish and greedy reason. People like him are a big threat to wildlife that we all cherish and want to keep around.

  51. jon says:

    Don’t think anyone will be surprised by this move.

  52. SEAK Mossback says:

    Good news from the Arctic Refuge area — the just-completed Porcupine Caribou herd count was 169,000. It had been declining up to the last count of 123,000 in 2001. This is the herd that has been a main focus of opposition to opening the refuge to oil drilling as it calves in areas right where the drilling would take place and is very important to four villages. There are of course other good reasons not to drill there. If you ever get a chance to see it there is a great film called “Being Caribou” about a couple who attempt to and largely succeed in migrating with the herd both north, starting in deep snow from Old Crow, to the coastal plain and back in the fall. They pack along a figurine of George Bush that stars prominently at points along the way.

    • Phil says:

      SEAK: I have never been to the Arctic Refuge area, but I have seen the migration of the caribous in that area, and it looks amazing on television. I cannot imagine how much better it would look in person.

  53. Doryfun says:


    Thanks for the caribou information. It brought back many fond memories of a float trip I did on the Noatak River back around 1981. We were hoping to see a bunch of the arcitc herd, and lucked out. One day we found ourselves in the middle of the river, completed surrounded by about 20000 swimming caribou. I have seen a good many cool things in nature, but so far, this is tops in my personal experiences on our wonderous planet. The two thoughts that immediately came to my mind when this happened: Wow, what it must have looked like to see the Buffalo when they were migrating across the plains in the millions. And, wow, if you do your homework and go out looking, you can still see these kinds of things in todays world. Pretty amazing. I think it is why there are so many folks who are interested in particpating on blogs pertaining to wildlife. That mystery of nature is so very captivating, and thus important to do as we can to keep those caribou’s of the mind and ground/water reality a movin. A worthy touchstone.

    • SEAK Mossback says:

      Sounds like a great trip. I have not been on the Noatak but started with it on the top of our list when planning our first Brooks Range trip a few years ago — would still like to do it, maybe the whole 300 miles or so. Part of why we chose another river (Kongakut) was because our schedule in August (before kids needed to start school) looked like it was on the early side for the caribou migration — also wanted to hike a lot as well as raft. If you were amongst that many caribou, I assume it was early September? I think the Western Arctic Herd was on the increase then from only about 75,000 in the mid-1970s. It peaked at close to 500,000 in 2003 and has since dropped to about 400,000.

      • Doryfun says:


        I wouldn’t do the Noatak again, as I hate to admit it, but too many miles of boring (yikes, did I say that) flat tundra, with not a mountain range in sight ( for 6 straight days anyway; out of 18) No rapids, one canyon (if you can call it that) terrible mosquitos, and only the caribou crossing made that trip (we tried to time if for post calving, so I think it was in late June or early July ??). At the time, I believe the WAH was around 35000 strong.
        Note: we put in below the Brooks Range, but guess you could hike the upper reaches and be in spectauclar country. That I would do next time.
        I always wanted to do the Kongakut, but never got around to it. Did lots of other rivers, and I do miss AK. Spent 5 years exploring such. Was one of the first driftboats on the Kenai River, in fact. Maybe some day, as I still have a bucket list of AK drianages. AK is AOK.

      • Immer Treue says:


        I’ve heard those tundra mosquitoes, when there is no wind, puts most other mosquitos to shame. I know we all have mosquito stories, but one I heard about those little vampires in tundra land is they will drive one insane.

      • SEAK Mossback says:

        Doryfun –
        I would definitely recommend the Kongakut as a mixed hike and float. It is mostly through mountains with the total float length being only 35-40 miles, so wouldn’t be much of a stream for somebody who just likes to float day after day. The country is beautiful with an incredible mix of geology. The two years we did that system, my son and I made a 9 day hike way back in the mountains and then met my wife who flew in later back at the river and we took a week to move slowly downstream and explore some of the awesome side drainages. We used our regular 12 foot Avon raft, not really a whitewater raft and with no rowing frame, etc. because it was just light enough to parcel post back and forth to Kaktovik with nearly all our other gear, saving lots of $$. On the first trip at very low water and the raft did fine and the challenge was mainly not getting hung up on rocks and shallows, but our second trip was at flood stage with water running right up through the willows and it was one epic ride through the canyon that pretty much ate our lunch. Both of our trips were in August when the river is usually lower. If you want to see caribou, I think late June-early July is the time when pretty much the entire Porcupine herd funnels through the Kongakut, post calving, but are typically long-gone south of the mountains by mid-August. Evidence of their passing was pretty remarkable, mats of hair on the bushes where thousands of bodies had passed by and windrows of caribou hair deposited by the current along the river edge. On the first trip we only saw three young, very worried looking animals, each by itself, trotting purposefully through the area. On the second trip, the mountains were full of big bulls, which I suspect was related to an almost complete lack of bugs on that trip. Got a lot of awesome photos.

        You have to be ready for virtually any weather from intense heat to howling north winds off the ice pack that will stop your raft cold in fairly strong current, to blowing and drifting snow — we saw it all and it can change fast. The most disconcerting experience was on the first trip when I lost my 14 year old son only hours after being dropped off on the river in new country at nearly 70 degrees N during violently changing weather.

        The raft was hanging up on rocks in the small upper reaches and he asked if he should get out and walk and I said, sure, it being a hot, sunny day — he was wearing shorts and water shoes. Suddenly, a short time later the weather changed with howling wind, thunderstorms with rain and lightning. I didn’t see him on shore and figured he must have taken a back wash through the willows and I would meet him down around the bend, which didn’t make me happy because there was ample sign of grizzlies traveling those washes (where they feed on soap berries and hope to ambush a caribou) and it would be easy to bump right into one. I was disheartened not to run into him within the next quarter mile with the weather seriously deteriorating, and even began to wonder if he ‘d been ambushed in the willows. So, I started searching all likely routes and circled all the way back to where I had last seen him, scouring the whole area. Nothing. Not even tracks. Finally, I went to the mountainside and climbed up where I could glass the entire valley for miles. Nothing! I fired three shots. Nothing!

        At some point, you begin to wonder when it will be justified (even required later in explaining yourself to your spouse) to call the Alaska Air National Guard and ask them to come 650 miles by helicopter from Fairbanks with a C-130 tanker plane in escort for refueling. But the most logical explanation I could come up with was aliens and figured the National Guard wouldn’t be much help. Finally, for lack of any other idea, I just floated downriver — hoping the trip would somehow get better! Three miles down, I spotted him ahead walking up-river. It turned out his idea when he asked me if he should get out and walk, was not to walk along on the bank right beside the raft, but to book straight for the mountainside and then down the valley straight to the distant creek 4 miles away where I’d told him we would camp before beginning our hike the next day (he’d heard the shots, but thought maybe I’d shot a caribou so didn’t reply). The rest of the trip was great!

      • Doryfun says:

        Immer & SEAK,

        Yes, Immer, those pesky skeeters were a trip, in themselves. In 5 years of touring all over the state of AK, that was the worst bug experience I ever had. First time I ever had to wear head nets for 3 days, until I discovered bug juice would work, if you didn’t mind them buzzing within 2 inches of your face all the time. Bathroom breaks were a hurried affair. Our only relief form their annoyance was when we sealed ourselves in our tents, killed everything that came in with us, then we could relax. sometimes we cooked inside tents, sometimes outside in a smokey fire, that worked, but made our eyes real red.

        Discovered skeeters like blue better than lighter colors. I had a blue raft and most of my clothing was blue (bad choice). So those with lighter colors only had 3000 bugs to worry about, instead of the 6000 or so that landed on me.

        I soon came to appreciate that if one found themselves in a landscape during the height of mosquito season without proper protection, you would either get all your blood sucked out and die, or go crazy. (most likely, go crazy, then die).

        SEAK, that was quite a story. Many years ago, I had a tip over experience in a river in Idaho and got seperated from another person, wondering what happened to them for a couple hours, anyway, so I know the feeling. Not very pretty. Everything turned out fine, but until that happens, stress is felt in its full colors.
        Your description of the other storms and problems you can have on AK wilderness trips, brought back more memories, too. That is what i like about AK. Down here, we have wilderness, but it doesn’t feel the same, as what AK has to offer. When you are hundreds of miles from nowhere in grizzly bear country, with out sat phones (the good ole days), it is a hugely different feeling. When things go wrong, the cavilary won’t be riding over the next hump to save your ass. You figure it out. But, that is what builds confidence, once you learn how to over come what at the time seems so insurmountable. I wouldn’t trade any of those experiences back to time. But, I will keep fighting to maintain the wild in wilds (actually, a misnomer, we have it backwards – the wilds is more like home; familiar, and more friendly. The huge mega cities are more like the true wilderness, dangerour, the apex predator lives there, and they eat their own kind.

        Anyway, thanks again for your story. I miss AK. But, where I live in ID is pretty good too. I like sunshine, better than rain, and bug free trips are hard to beat.

  54. timz says:

    Once again our esteemed Governor embarrasses himself and Idaho on a national stage.

    • I want to put this up as a post. Plenty of light needs to be cast on this aggressive, opinionated, badly informed governor.

      • Doryfun says:

        Go for it Ralph. I’ve seen this already, as well a some other related articles, that reflect what I have come to call (and make my own list for) “Otterisms.”

    • Phil says:

      timz and all who live in Idaho: Why does this man keep getting voted back into office?

    • Phil says:

      It doesn’t matter if it is wildlife related or not, it is about dogs, and what a great story. I remember reading an article on National Geographic a couple years talking about a cat who was lost for 5 years after a tornado hit a city in Nebraska just to find his way back home. The cat walked through up the drive way meowing loud enough that the owners heard it and spotted him walking up to the door. Another story was a cat that was found in Orlando and the chip inside showed that she was from San Diego California. There could have been many reasons as to how the cat got to Florida, but the obvious one from investigators/officials was that the cat traveled the enitre distance feeding on scraps and rodents.

    • Immer Treue says:

      Sad story with the “dog industry” in this country. I’ve heard over 4 million dogs a year are euthanized in the U.S.A. each year.

      • Phil says:

        Immer: Those numbers may be a few years old, because it currently stands at around 5 million and about 4 million for cats. I could be wrong though, but these numbers are from the ASPCA and Humane Society back them up. It really is sad. My sister wanted me to find a home for their dog a few months after having her first baby because her and her husband couldn’t take care of the dog with the baby, I just couldn’t do that because you can’t trust anyone anymore with domestic animals. I did not want to give him to a shelter or such because most will euthanize if they don’t find their cats and dogs a home within 2-3 weeks.

    • Nancy says:

      Local vet Amanda Kloski, from the Arbuckle, Oklahoma Veterinary Clinic has now taken him in and after a Pennsylvania woman heard his story and put it on Facebook, the veterinary clinic has been inundated with calls from all over the U.S. and Canada of people wanting to adopt Wall-e.

      “He needs a really special home because he’s really special,” Kloski said.

      They are ALL SPECIAL Jon. But just like the human species, few want to recognize the destruction being caused by neglecting the facts when it comes to over population.

  55. PointsWest says:

    Colorado Wants More ID For Yellowstone Area Cattle

    This might lead to lots of trouble if Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana cattle lose value in the market place. Expect some aggressive action by lawmakers.

    • Phil says:

      What a sad story. As all you know, each individual is valuable to the small population, and this death could have passed on its fitness to future generations, and so on.

  56. jon says:

    African lions under threat from the American hunter

    • william huard says:

      But Safari Clump International promotes “Wildlife Conservation Worldwide”!!!!!!!!! They are already crying themselves to sleep because they can’t kill polar bears- now you are going to deprive them of lion trophies- those damn animal rights people!

    • Phil says:

      jon: This is truly sad. I read a article related to this a couple years ago and basically what is happening is these American hunters are to bored with local game that they are traveling to Africa and Asia to bag other species. This sure shows that these hunters are struggling economically like the rest of us, doesn’t it! From what I understand is that the hunting organization towards lions in Africa is organized by an American who was harshly criticized for his organization. Part of his organization makes a profit through tourism, while the other part through hunting lions. The government and conservation groups stepped in and the government and this gentleman proposed a deal to only hunt lions older then 5 years. You can determine the age whether it being 5 and under or older then 5 years by the coloration of the nose. The problem is that sexual maturity is right around that 4-5 year age level, so if they are killing lions above 5 then that really does not give males enough time to find territory and lionesses to mate with, and lionesses enough time to breed.

    • Phil says:

      I believe the biggest destruction of America, atleast one of them, is the garbage pulled off by these hunters. Not all hunters, just the idiotic ones that post articles like these ones. How much have bears, cougars, wolves, etc destroyed Canada?

  57. jon says:

    Gotta love when people post misinformation.

    “There is more and more evidence that unmanaged wolf populations are causing extreme problems all over the West, and something will have to be done. In Idaho the statewide elk harvest has dropped by more than half. And every wilderness herd has been reduced by from 50 to 85 percent!

    Moose in Idaho have apparently been completely eradicated. And outfitters have reported that their clients have dropped from 4,500 to 1,100 in just two years.”

    • Phil says:

      “In Idaho statewide elk harvest has dropped by more than half.” So, because these hunters are to lazy to go after their catch it is the wofl’s fault, right? “And every wilderness herd has been reduced by from 50 to 85 percent!” If this was the case then wouldn’t that mean the overall population of elk in each state of the NRM would be decreasing and not increasing as it is? This article is not even professionally written. Tell me if this is from a professional writer or not, “…wilderness herd has been reduced BY FROM…!”?

    • Elk275 says:


      How do you know that this is misinformation? Have you ever been to Idaho? How do you not know that the number of outfitted clients have not dropped from 4500 to 1100 in two years. I would not book an outfitted hunting trip in Idaho. Colorado would be a better bang for the buck.

      • Phil says:

        Elk: It is misinformation because if every herd was decreasing in population by 50-85 percent then the overall population of the elk in the region would also be decreasing, and from the Elk foundation, that is not occuring. Fish and Wildlife and even Fish and Game say the overall population of elk are not decreasing. 50-85 percent would mean that there are less then 60,000 elk in the state, is that true? From experts, not even close.

        Elk: If you read the article/statement, it does not talk about the decline in the number of outfitters (although I do agree they have decreased), the statement jon posted relates to less and less outfitters getting their catch/harvest. That is not the wolf’s fault, it is lazy, bad, etc hunters who want to put the blame on wolves.

      • Phil says:

        Elk: I agree with you in that Idaho has lost a lot of non-residential hunters, but doesn’t that confirm that the whining and crying from these hunters is not due to facts but due to not wanting to compete with wolves? Isn’t that why they are not going to Idaho to hunt any more?

      • Elk275 says:

        ++Elk: If you read the article/statement, it does not talk about the decline in the number of outfitters (although I do agree they have decreased), the statement jon posted relates to less and less outfitters getting their catch/harvest. That is not the wolf’s fault, it is lazy, bad, etc hunters who want to put the blame on wolves.++

        I did not say the that the number of outfitters in decreasing. The number of clients booking hunts or the number of hunters employing an outfitter is decreasing. One of my best friends is one of the top booking agents in the world and they are shifing hunters away from Idaho to New Mexico or Colorado.

        Are elk numbers increasing? Yes. I know that elk numbers are increasing in Montana, but where are they increasing? The increase is in Eastern Montana on private land. I do not even want to get into the politics of that situation. The land owners would like them declared private property.

    • Elk275 says:

      Once again have you ever been in the wilderness of Idaho, Wyoming or Montana? Both you and Jon just read what ever is printed and believe it.

      I think that WM wrote about his hunting experience in Idaho for the last 2 years and he is seeing less elk than in the past. I am starting to see less elk every year in Western Montana. I have good quality German “Big Eyes” 15 x 56 binoculars mounted on a tripod. At first light I am able to glass many square miles of open elk habitat and each year there are less and less elk. I have several friends who are biologist is the game department and they are glassing the herds every other day and now are starting to notice a decrease in numbers.

      • Phil says:

        Yes Elk I have been to Montana and Idaho, so don’t give me that “You don’t live here so you don’t know…”. That is a typical hunter’s response. Seeing less elk does not mean it is due to overpredation, it could mean many different reasons, like scarcity, individuals leaving herds with wolf presence in the area to another herd with less wolves, etc. It doesn’t matter how great your eyes are, that means nothing to the realistic story. Look at the pronoun elk organizations and they say that the overall elk population is steady to increasing. Yes, there are certain herds that have dipped, but wolves are not the primary reasons to this. Hunters in Minnesota have been saying that they have been seeing less and less deer since the 60s according to Mech, but the state’s overall deer population is larger now then it was 50 years ago. Same with Michigan and Wisconsin. Your biologist friends are not valid. You cannot count numbers on a daily basis and get an accurate measure on what the population is or is not. First, it is nearly impossible to count daily. Second, even counts on a yearly or every other year would not give a definate conclusion to what is occuring to populations. I do not rely on what biologists from the game department say because much of their salaries comes from outfitters. When was the last article you read that came from the game department that portrayed wolves in a positive way? Now, compare their articles to Fish and Wildlife, WWF, NWF, etc.

      • Phil says:

        I maybe wrong, but isn’t the current elk count around 103,000 compared to 2-3 years ago when it was at 101,000? Compare that to 25 years ago when it was around 90,000. All Elk Foundation numbers backed up by Fish and Wildlife.

      • Phil says:

        Elk: “I did not say the that the number of outfitters in decreasing. The number of clients booking hunts or the number of hunters employing an outfitter is decreasing. One of my best friends is one of the top booking agents in the world and they are shifing hunters away from Idaho to New Mexico or Colorado.

        Are elk numbers increasing? Yes. I know that elk numbers are increasing in Montana, but where are they increasing? The increase is in Eastern Montana on private land. I do not even want to get into the politics of that situation. The land owners would like them declared private property.” It’s the same thing as what I said. There are less and less hunters and anything portrayed to outfitters in Idaho mainly due to wolf presence. If these hunters don’t like it, then to bad for them. There are still those hunters who hunt the traditional way and are successful in what they do. I do not agree with it, but it is their way of life and what they want to do. Isn’t it better to mainly have state residential hunters to hunt then bring in “non-native” hunters who may cause destruction in numbers, behavior in how they hunt, etc to the elk?

      • Elk275 says:


        When you have counted the Madison Valley elk herd every other day in the winter for 20 years. I would think that you would have an understanding of what is out there.

        Yes you have been to Montana but have you been here every month of the year? No.

        Lets face it you hate hunting and would like it outlawed, that is not going to happen.

      • Phil says:

        By the way Elk, read the statement posted by jon carefully. It says ALL elk herds have declined by 50-85 percent. You are naming off the couple that may be accurate, but not completely due to wolves, but the article is stating ALL herds.

      • Elk275 says:


        You are talking about Idaho.

        ++I do not rely on what biologists from the game department say because much of their salaries comes from outfitters. When was the last article you read that came from the game department that portrayed wolves in a positive way? Now, compare their articles to Fish and Wildlife, WWF, NWF, etc.++

        If you do not believe any information from a game department then way do you believe this statement. ++I maybe wrong, but isn’t the current elk count around 103,000 compared to 2-3 years ago when it was at 101,000? Compare that to 25 years ago when it was around 90,000. All Elk Foundation numbers backed up by Fish and Wildlife.++

        I spent most of the day in district court testifying about a property settlement for a dissolution of marriage. It is time to go to the brew pub and have a cold one.

  58. Salle says:

    Sixth Mass Extinction May Have Already Started: Study

  59. jon says:

    audio interview with Will Graves, talks about wolf disease

    To hear him 50 minutes into the show.

  60. william huard says:

    Facts are unimportant to some people. You give people the real Elk numbers but it’s easier for hunters to blame wolves and just whine some more.

    • Phil says:

      william: True, and it seems like elk is one of those individuals. There are good hunters and bad ones, and ones who misinform and twist facts around to fit their personal agenda are the bad ones.

      • Elk275 says:


        I am not anti wolf, I was for the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone. It is like statistics. Statistics do not lie, liars us statistics. Facts do not lie but who who’s fact do we use? Phil, you think that game departments fact are bias because outfitters fund the game departments which is wrong, hunters fund the game departments.

        Most game departments have a data base on game populations that are almost a hundred years old. Or would you perfer to use fact from a NGO who has been in business for 20 years and they personel numbers are minor to a western game department.

  61. Phil says:

    Elk: Again, you are relying on numbers that are being posted every day or every other day or even every year. Those are no realistic because population numbers fluctuate on a yearly basis. You can’t have 103,17 elk in 2009 and expect the exact same numbers the following. Numbers may decrease by a thousand or so for even a 3 year consective period, but that does not mean anything in a conclusion to what is occuring with numbers count. A realistic count should occur every 5-10 years. I don’t need to live in Montana and count elk daily, that is nearly impossible because it takes more then a day to have an accurate count when counted by “realistic organizations”.

    Elk: Now you are putting words in mouth and it is just not true. I am not a hunter, but never stated that I wanted hunting outlawed. You speak like a typical anti-wolf hunter, and if you want proof, then read statements from Rockholm, Bruce and others who share your opinions.

    • william huard says:

      I’ve never seen anything quite like the wolf debate where you have two groups of people that are obsessed with this animal. One group the rancher is always bitching about their cows when more often than not the animal is dead by the time the wolf gets to it. When the wolf eats the “right” animal the outfitters are whining and the hunters are crying.

      • Phil says:

        william: There is no winning with these type of people unless they get 100% of what they want. Even if there was an agreeance to only have 20 wolves in each state they would complain about the 20.

      • jon says:

        I don’t get why hunters are whining that the elk #s are lower. As Phil said, do they expect the elk population to be the same every single elk hunting season?

  62. Salle says:

    Poll: Rockies Voters Want Stronger Economy, Environmental Protections
    A survey of 2,200 voters in five Rocky Mountain states suggests that people in the region don’t think they should have to choose between a strong economy and clean air and water. And they want more of their energy to come from renewable sources.

  63. Phil says:

    Elk: Your game department is from the Fish and Game and not Elk foundation. Your statement from the biologists from the game department do not coincide with the numbers from the Elk Foundation and Fish and Wildlife.

  64. william huard says:

    This has nothing to do with elk numbers. There is a culture of HATE for the wolf in the west. If there where no depredation at all and double the number of game animals they would still be bitching about how wolves “kill for fun” or how cruel they are when they kill- I laugh when I hear that one!!!

    • Phil says:

      william: The funniest one is “wolves kill for fun”. Well: this would go against energy consumption that wolves, along with other predators, need for times when survival is vidal. “How cruel they are when they kill”, ya, goes back to a past comment I posted, should they use a knife and fork to cut their meat in a clean manner? The middle school students in the school I work at make as much of a mess as wolves do, should they not continue to eat any more?

      • william huard says:

        If wolves ordered takeout the rednecks would still be bitching that the wolves make too much of a mess.

      • jon says:

        William, it’s not problem wolves, it’s problem people.

  65. Phil says:

    Elk: Yes, there are facts from different sides of the spectrum, but facts from sides who have something to gain from are not reliable. What does the Fish and Game have to benefit from by ALWAYS posting articles negatively about wolves? From a Fish and Game rep, he stated that they have lost atleast 25% of non-residential hunters since the reintroduction of wolves. You don’t think what they say and do regarding wolves relates to this decrease of profits? NGO does not get their numbers from their organization, they rely on the same resources that I mentioned, Elk Foundation, Fish and Wildlife, etc. NGO also has their own biologists who work in different regions of each continent, but they do not get their salaries paid by from hunters. You may not be anti-wolf, elk, but you sound no different then individuals who clearly are like Bruce.

    • Salle says:

      Well, it really does become a self-fulfilling prophecy when they ~ and I mean IDF&G, outfitters and the anti-wolf gang of ignorant thugs ~ had been screaming, “don’t come to Idaho to hunt because the wolves ate all the elk” far and wide.

      • Phil says:

        Good point Salle. I never saw it that way before. Yes, makes total sense in that these hunters screamed about wolves to keep the rest of the non-residintial hunters from taking what belongs to them.

  66. Phil says:

    Elk: Your have your opinions and I have mine, but I would rather rely on statistics that come from individuals and organizations who have nothing to benefit from in their findings then ones who do.

  67. william huard says:

    I just framed an antique print from the 1950’s which shows four timber wolves fighting with a grizzly bear. Really cool print

      • william huard says:

        How much do you want to make a bet that the toothless wonder on the Buckshot sight is an illiterate huntin fool. He looks like the missing link

      • william huard says:

        sorry jon I spelled sight should have been site.

      • jon says:

        Ask Phil about that guy. He knows all about Bruce Hemming. Bruce Hemming is a certified nutjob.

      • jon says:

        lol @ William’s comment. He looks like he’s missing some teeth.

        Here’s his website.

      • jon says:

        William, I believe Phil has said he dealt with this bruce guy before, but check out some of the comments he makes and tell me if you think he’s right in the head. go to and type in bruce hemming wolves and read some of this lunatic’s comments. He truly believe that anyone who likes wolves is a nazi.

      • jon says:

        Read this William. You will get a kick out of this Bruce guy. He truly believes that the nazis used wolves to torment jews during ww2.

      • william huard says:

        I have no patience for people like him. I spent at least an hour on the phone today giving a law enforcment officer from Oregon information about another idiot in Central Oregon that has been talking about “shoot on sight” for months. These people are so ignorant I’ve lost any hope that these people will change their attitudes. All I can hope is that they will get caught poaching a wolf. The way they talk shit they aren’t really that bright to begin with.

      • jon says:

        Would he happen to be Kevin Watson? Someone I know has reported him to the proper authorities in Oregon.

      • jon says:

        William, if you ask me 95% of the hunters who claim they are going to shoot wolves online are full of it. They just do it because they are angry and because they wanna try and piss wolf advocates off. This nut Kevin constantly goes on and on of how the gray wolf is non native and needs to be removed from OR. I posted his facebook page before.

        A common tactic from these nuts is to use pictures of half eaten elk or dead elk ripped open to make wolves look like vicious hounds from hell.

      • william huard says:

        You got it Jon. I have been following his rants for several months. I envision him in a jail cell where he won’t act quite as much of a badass. He’s nothing more than a slimy poacher

      • jon says:

        William, they will never change no matter how much education and truth you throw at them. It’s a waste of time to even try. These people are filled with hate and that is all there is to it.

      • jon says:

        I read his rants in different places just like you. He’s truly delusional. He truly believes he and others like him are going to get rid of all of the wolves in his state of Oregon.

      • william huard says:

        Gee, he’s got Tom Remington for a facebook friend! How fortunate- they can tell stories to each other! More like active hallucinations

      • jon says:

        And the funny thing is there are only 30 wolves and 5000 cougars in Oregon. I’m not trying to blame cougars or make them out to be the bad guy, but I would bet money that they eat a lot more deer than the wolves and this guy says nothing about the cougars, just the 30 wolves. This guy clearly has some sorta sick vendetta against the wolves.

      • Salle says:

        Once again may I add, You can lead a mind to knowledge but you can’t make it think.

      • Phil says:

        jon: Bruce banned me a few months after chatting with him on youtube immediately after I told him what my career goals were. I did not mention this to him the 3-4 months we went back and forth on the wolf issue, but a couple days after I told him what I was in college for and gave him names to resources (zoologists, biologists and scientists) with their email addresses (with their permission offcourse) and he banned me from commenting on his videos and channel. This tells me that his goal was to get to as many people who are neutral on the issue and not speak to ones who have somewhat of or full understanding on the issue. This NUT traveled as far to New Mexico and Arizona spreading his propaganda to convince people to speak out against the Mexican wolves. The funny thing is a newspaper article wrote about Bruce in New Mexico warning people about him. He lives in I believe North Dakota.

  68. Elk275 says:


    Before, I go to the brew pub it is impossible for any NGO to ever develop the data that a state department will have.

    They do not have enough personel, trucks or money.

    They do not have a historical data base

    The do not have the same access as the game departments on private land

    Finally they do not have access to aircraft or helicopters except rarely. I think Montana FW&P’s has approximately 10 aircraft plus a budget for helicopters. Most biologist who have been counting game for a number of years feel that helicopters are the way to go. After awhile most biologist will have had several brushes in Super Cubs and develop a fear of fixed wing aircraft.

  69. Ron Kearns says:

    Permit valid in capture of rare jaguar, Macho B, judge says

    However, federal prosecutors are still going to prosecute whistleblower Janay Brun and they have refiled conspiracy charges against her.

    • Phil says:

      I agree that species should be captured and collared for the benefit of the entire population, but not in this case. To be the last jaguar in the country, you cannot capture and collar Macho B. Darting, capturing, collaring, etc have many risks to them, that is why only professionals are able in doing so. But, to continously capture and radio collar would eventually take its toll on him and extensively wear the body down. It is sad what happened to Macho B, but in the realistic hopes his death is very well known across the globe now, and this will eventually create a plan to protect jaguars, and possibly have a reintroduction plan of the species in the near future.

    • Salle says:

      She sounds like she might be joining the ranks of Bradley Manning and Tim DeChtristopher…

  70. Virginia says:

    A few months ago, a book was discussed which was about animals and how they live and “think.” I have tried to remember the title, I think it had the word “Green” in it and was the first book by the author. Can anyone remember reading about this book and help me figure out the title? Thanks and sorry for wasting your time on this.

  71. jon says:

    No surprise here. Safari club international don’t want african lions on the endangered species list because then they won’t be able to kill them for sport anymore.

    • william huard says:

      “hunters are truly the greatest stewards of our wildlife” That’s a good one. SCI may know the price of every animal they kill but they know the value of none.

      • jon says:

        William, even if there were 100 african lions left in Africa, they still wouldn’t want them protected. Didn’t they try to take the polar bear off the esl just so they can kill them for sport? I think they mean the greatest killers of our wildlife.

      • william huard says:

        Spend 15.00 on the book “DOMINION” by Matthew scully. Go on google and put in Ken Behring kills rare Tara Gau Argali sheep. That’s SCI. It didn’t take Rudolph long to reply did it

    • Phil says:

      Safari club are a waste of an organization. If an animal is protected, then how will they manage to make and issue license, tags, etc to sell to hunters for the species?

      The problem in protecting a species, like lions, is that it will not happen until the population gets extensively low. Being protected is a good thing, but what about the individual lions killed off prior to being protected? You cannot save a species without first saving individuals within that species.

      • Phil says:

        One big reason why governments and conservation groups began to step in and try to abolish hunting of lions from this “american tourist guide/trainee of hunters” is because of the large attraction tourists have of lions. The governments saw that these hunters killing off lions did not sit well for tourists who wanted to see a lot of lions “Kings of the Jungle”.

  72. Harley says:

    I’ve been following this for the past few months. Sounds like the wolves on Isleroyale are in trouble. Extremely interesting, this study has been going on for over 50 years.

    • Immer Treue says:


      If you you are referring to the Isle Royale wolf bone deformities, yes, that is a growing concern. It’s not going to get any better. The anti-wolf group is quoting something Mech said a bit out of context to satisfy their we don’t need that may wolves in the NRM states to preserve sound genetics. Under a testimony, Mech made a comment about the inbreeding of Isle Royale wolves, and their ability to persevere through this genetic bottle necking, and still survive.

      The anti-wolfers have twisted this statement about persevering into no ill effects. The effects are so ill, that there is debate going on about whether to bring in new wolves or not. The initial breeders of Isle Royale where very small in number. What must also be remembered is when the wolf population was reduced to 12 due to parvo in the 80’s, there were only three females on the Isle. This constricted genetics further.

      I wote a paper about this in the late 80’s, early 90’s and brought up the genetics of Isle Royale wolves. At either the 95 or 2000 wolf symposia, I spoke for a while with Vucetich, and his feelings were that the Isle Royale wolves were doomed.

      To not take this statement out of context, this can happen to any small isolated population of animals, yet Isle Royale presented a small, genetically isolated population, that was still somewhat reeling from the effects of parvo, and a smaller yet number of females, who may or may not have been able to breed.

      • jon says:

        Immer, I posted a link to a blogtalk audio show from last night. Will Graves was on it talking about his experience with wolves in Russia and the dangerous diseases and parasites they have that ar a threat to humans according to him. Listen to it. 45 minutes into the show, Will Graves comes on it.

      • Immer Treue says:


        I saw your link late last, but it was about bed time. You guys were busy last night. I don’t know if I have the stamina to listen to 50 minutes of Graves. I think we all know what choir he is preaching to. Perhaps if time available…

    • Phil says:

      Harley: Inbreeding has been going on since basically when wolves began to migrate to Isle Royale. About 20 years ago or so Rolf Peterson began to notice that inbreeding was the major genetic deformation of the population and has been pretty concerned about the situation due to the lack of a large population with an abundant amount of diverse genetic codes, as has Vucetich. Inbreeding will always be a problem for any species, but to know this has been occuring for 20 years, and possibly much longer then that, and to still have a somewhat viable population in tact, it is not the front burner in concerns facing wolves on the island today. Yes, there is the chance it could take a major toll on the wolves, but it has not so far, and hopefully it will never. The population went from 4 wolves in the 1940s to as much as about 55 at one point. It has decreased to about 19 currently, and I did read the alpha male of the Middle Pack being killed, which would decrease it even further, but I have not read all the article links of the site yet to see how many pups were born from last year and are still alive. I recieved the information from Ms. Vucetich (who is like her husband’s and Rolf’s secretary).

  73. Immer Treue says:

    New low for humans, one possible suggestion a coyote hunter.

    Coyote hunter or not, I give a rats a$$. Punishment if caught should equal the crime. Eat the meat ball.

    • jon says:

      I hope this hunter gets nailed. Piece of trash that he is. This guy knew very well putting out poison laced meatballs will kill any animal that eats them including people’s beloved pets.

      • jon says:

        “Whoever’s doing this may be trying to control the coyotes from eating the deer so there is more deer for the hunters,” Joan said.

        In the meantime, other dog owners, like Rita Richardson who was just about to take her dog on the deadly pathway, quickly changed her mind.

        “I am so grateful because if I lost her I don’t know what I would have done,” Richardson said.

        Toby Bridges, where are you? This is something that Toby Bridges advocates when dealing with wolves.

      • Immer Treue says:


        assumption was possibly a coyote hunter…

        But yes, anyone who favors doing something like this has no idea who or what might come along. Indiscriminate actions such as these put me at a loss of words other than vulgarity and a wish to have the individual by their neck

      • jon says:

        immer, do you own any dogs? if so what kind?

      • Elk275 says:

        Why would one assume that this was the work of a coyote hunter? Someone was poisoning dogs. I read about this several times a year in various news sources.

      • Immer Treue says:


        yes, a German Shepherd

        Elk 275,

        I emphasized from the site, that there is an assumption of someone culling coyotes in the area.

    • Phil says:

      What a sad story. What would be the purpose of a coyote hunter to poison coyotes? Is this a typical lazy hunter who can’t move more then a few steps for his/her entertainment? First of all; coyotes should not be hunted. Hunters who hunt coyotes do so not for significance, but for sport. Second; what do they gain by putting out poisoned meat to kill the coyotes? If you want to hunt, then do so, but hunt for a purpose and use the carcass for significance. Predators are not categorized in any of these. Hunters who kill predators do so for selfish purposes of competition. It does not matter if the poisoned meat was set up for the dogs, it still got to the dogs. How many elephants, tigers, etc are killed by traps not set for them? The crying of the child alone should get the investigation to go full out on catching this person, hunter or not.

      • jon says:

        Phil, they think that killing some coyotes will provide more deer for them. The same thing goes on in the west where you have hunters putting put poisoned meat meant to kill wolves.

        Salmon man pleads guilty to baiting wolves with poison meatballs

        Everyone on here knows about Tim Sundles.

      • jon says:

        Here is another similar story.

        This scum put out poison meatballs to kill coyotes.

        “Locally, Gerald Parry, a resident of Ramona and later, Escondido, was recently found guilty of leaving meatballs filled with rat poison in a field. He was sentenced to community service and forced to pay medical expenses for a neighbor’s cat that became sick after eating part of a poisoned meatball. Parry claimed he left he meatballs out to poison coyotes, but a complaint had previously been made to the Sheriff claiming that Parry had threatened to harm dogs, the Ramona Sentinel reported.”

      • jon says:

        Tim Sundles used to have a website telling people how to poison wolves with poison meatballs. He said he would shoot any federal officer who tried to stop him from killing wolves. These are the type of people you are dealing with in the west Phil.

      • Phil says:

        Community service and paying for the cat’s vet bills is not enough for breaking a federal law. Sundles should get a harsh punishment for threatening a federal agent. It would be no different then threatening the president. I mean, wolves and other predators are killed because they “pose” a threat to livestock, but this moron actually verbally threatened the feds.

      • Salle says:

        Ah yes, Tim Sundles…The day he “confessed” publicly was quite the day in Salmon, ID. I remember sitting in the meeting room, there were numerous federal and state personnel there, nobody was checking firearms at the door and only two, I think it was, of those wearing side arms had badges, all the while tere was a US Senator and a high-level counsel to the Sec. of Interior in the room as well… The Senator was already aware of Sundles’ coming “confession” and facilitated his circus stunt from the brginning of the public part of the meeting. The others included our fav, Ron Gillette, who immediately stood up after the opening line, “I shot a wolf…” and offered Sundles legal funds… a couple months later at a hearing of the ID committee in Boise, he was wearing a fine silk suit and I think he even had a facial that morning… I think Gillette saw him as the “golden child” who would reinforce his rhetoric… but that just didn’t materialize. I think Sundles took Gillette for a wild ride too. Quite a piece of work there.

    • WM says:

      After interviews with the 6 IDGF Director candidates, I will give better than even odds they pick Unsworth.

      He has the credentials, the experience, knows the current mission statement, is reasonably articulate, and they won’t have to incur the budget expense of moving him. I don’t know how he interacts with the Commission, but he seems like a personable guy, much more so than sour puss Groen.

      It will also give somebody else in the department a chance to move up. Just my WAG, and I have been wrong before.

  74. more news on Oregon wolf pack

  75. Salle says:

    Confusion swirls around changes to ExxonMobil big rig project

  76. Savebears says:

    U.S. Senate budget bill provision lifts wolf protections in Montana, Idaho

    • william huard says:

      I don’t think people realize the implications of legislatively undermining the ESA through a backdoor rider in a Senate funding bill! I thought wolves belong to all Americans not just outfitters and ranchers that hate them. Tester is a fool- to think that this will help him with voters that won’t vote for him anyway because of his health care vote among others. If reid sells out wolves in this toxic environment there will be hell to pay- guaranteed

  77. Salle says:

    Kochs’ BFF is GOP’s styrofoam dealer

  78. Salle says:

    Republicans attack Obama’s environmental protection from all sides

    Environmental protection in US under attack from extremist Tea Partiers backed by big business

    It isn’t funny but sad that the better news sources are outside the US.

    • WM says:

      ++It isn’t funny but sad that the better news sources are outside the US.++

      They cut through the BS much better, without beholding to corporate umbrellas or big business sponsors on which they rely for advertising revenues. We should never forget NBC is owned by General Electric, ABC by Disney, and until 2005 CBS was owned by Viacom.

      And, now the wackos in Congress want to eliminate ALL funding for PBS public television, which has some of the only independent programming which is needed to balance off the crap that comes from corporate talking heads with the nice hair and great teeth. Did anyone know Brian Williams loves NASCAR (republican owned which recieves 45M in tax money subsidies), and is a member of a very conservative think tank in NY, the name of which escapes me at the moment.

    • Doryfun says:

      Along these lines check out:

      I often take people from other countries down the river, and time and again, I am now no longer surprised that most of them know more about what is going in in our country, than the people in our own country know about.

  79. jon says:

    Just think how worse this country might get if this loser becomes our next president.

    • timz says:

      How much worse could it get? The good ole USA is a big turd circling the bowl already. Better be brushing up on your Chinese.

  80. jon says:

    Interview with Cal Groen on his retirement. Wolves are brought up.

    Don’t let the door hit you on your way out Cal!

    • Salle says:

      I wish I could say “good riddance”, take a deep breath and be glad that he’s on his way out. The problem is, there’s plenty like him or worse to follow.

      You know, my ex and I used to travel through all the 48 states together and there was one state that had signs posted all along the highways that read:
      “(state’s nickname) hospitality is NO accident.” ~ Of course meant to be a pep-talk sort of driver safety campaign but was the butt of many jokes instead ~ And my ex would reply whenever we saw one of those signs, “That’s right, they breed ’em like that!”

      This stuff reminds me of that, and especially in the case of Idaho, often.

    • Elk275 says:

      I think they are going back to bed after emerging there is a very heavy snow fall at present. I might even take a nap.

    • Salle says:

      I’ve seen sign of them as early as the third week of Feb. the last few years, this is no surprise other than the deep snow that hasn’t yet turned to that hard granulated stuff they can walk on, instead they would have to swim in the stuff that continues to accumulate in large quantities even today.

      • Phil says:

        We had about 4-5 inches of snow this morning that all melted by about 2 in the afternoon. Now we have another 2 inches that fell within the last couple hours. From snow to rain and back to snow. Species who rely on seasonal changes must really be confused now.

    • It’s not an early emergence of the bears. They don’t all come out at the same time either. Some will still be hibernating 3 weeks from now if their “cave” is in an area with really deep snow.

  81. timz says:

    I know for some of you it’s a sin to go tho this website but you should see this.

    • WM says:

      On the other hand, maybe Gov. Schweitzer has a point, regardless of the tainted media covering it. What I take away from the piece is that while FWS and the court try to figure out what the law is and how FWS must comply with it , over time, the wolf population will continue to increase.

      What that means, is that when it comes time to thin them out to levels agreed to in the respective wolf management plans- and make no mistake that day will come – it will be an even bigger bloodbath than some of you do not want to see now.

      I do not know what kind of a wolf pup crop will be produced this Spring in various parts of the NRM, but a net increase in population of 15-25, or maybe even 30 percent is possible in some locations, going well beyond what the states agreed to. You think the $hit has hit the fan with this Continuing Resolution proposal, just wait a year.

  82. jon says:

    Human Population Control Vs Animal Population Control
    Who’s the Biggest Threat to the World?

    “Time for some people to wake up and see the world for what it really is. A great big gigantic mess, courtesy of the human race. How about some human population control? We are over-running the earth at a rapidly

    increasing rate. We are using up resources like there’s no tomorrow. We know about birth control, but we don’t use it on a regular basis. We drive around chugging fumes into the air, even though we know better. Yet, we have the audacity to spout off about controlling animal population? Does this make sense to anyone? Am I the only one who sees what we are doing to ourselves here? Leave the animals alone. We’re the ones destroying the earth and it’s creatures. Animals don’t need us over-seeing their population control. We’ve caused enough trouble as it is.”

    • Salle says:

      I’ve been thinking and saying this for decades… but nobody listens to me so I guess that I’ll just go on walking my talk while others blatantly go forth denying and destroying… after all it is what people do best.

      • Nancy says:

        Salle – couldn’t agree more with you and Jon but now the “go forth & multiply” bunch have a new agenda – over populating the world before the Muslims do. No joke, had someone say that to me recently.

      • Salle says:

        Ha! That’s what all the christian zealots of my childhood always told me though they just claimed that ANY other religion was bad… not “the chosen ones” like the zealotry thumpers you understand…

        This is why I steadfastly continue to make the claim, as Nicolo Machiavelli pointed out, that organized religion is merely a population control device based on fear and guilt. (And for those who don’t understand where Machiavelli was coming from; he was, in his writings, making observations of how rulership was practised in his time and before rather than suggesting that those methods were the best ways or the recommendations of such. He was soundly demonized for exposing the methods to the world by those who thought they had control of information and the people they dominated using some of the least humane methods of control.)

        Yes, I have a sense of what is and what I might do to be positive in all things but I don’t expect or demand that others live by my values ~ which is exactly what the zealotry has and will always be about. If I’m not mistaken, that is precisely why there is that all important separation of church and state clause in our governing model that was prescribed from the beginning of this nation’s existence.

  83. Marcel Verwoerd says:


    • Nancy says:

      Fasinating study Marcel.
      A year ago one of my dogs (a puppy then) knocked over a pole lamp next to my chair. Its amusing now when she jumps in my lap, because she will often engage eye contact with me and then look at the lamp shade and then back at me til I track her gaze. If I touch the shade, she’s out of my lap like a shot!

  84. Doryfun says:

    Agree Jon,
    Yep, we humans have created quite a nest to lie in. And, yep, man should only be so smart, as of yesterday, to work at curbing his own numbers. Most folks who take the time to analyse our earthly plights usually arrive at the same root problem of over population, granted. Not all of course. People vary on their idea about the difference between quality and quantity. Some don’t mind living elbow to elbow, others prefer wilderness. At the heart of human existence has always been the question of why evil exists.

    Great minds, like St. Augustine, Hobbes, Kant, Freud, Arendt, Marx, Hegel, , Plato, and Nietzsche, have wrestled with it over the arc of history. But humans seem to “serially” always forget the lessons of the past, so is quite the barrior to changing our ways to deal with the present and future.

    But, I don’t think controling animal populations is a bad thing. Humans control plant numbers, every time they plant a garden. How many tomatoes, potatoes, or radishes will we cultivate and lord over? (do you ever pull weeds?) Then once they are grown, we kill them and eat them, then plant some more. Is animal life better than plant life? What about the grass you step on walking along? For me, I like elk with my potatoes. The earth is one big garden. I prefer a little more order, over total chaos in the world. What ever man does, is part of Natures way. Try as we might to seperate ourselves…won’t ever happen.

    Einsteins theory of relativity was a fascinating one.

    • Salle says:

      I guess, then, that the best thing that could happen for the rest of the flora and fauna in the biosphere would be a massive depopulating ~ of humans ~ series of events. Try as we might to control nature, usually to our own detriment, nature will eventually balance the scales. Humans may not survive but that’s nature’s way… We will destroy ourselves since we can’t allow other species to exist without our approval of how, where, when they can be. I have no sympathy for humans.

      • Doryfun says:


        I know how easy it is to get long in the tooth on the evils of mankind. Here is a book, (I’m guessing you haven’t read it yet?) that might help. It is high on my list. After digesting a lot of blogging material here lately, I think I might need it soon, too. It is “Blessed Unrest” by Paul Hawken. A couple reviews:

        Blessed Unrest is exciting, compelling, and very important. It describes the growing unrest that I encounter around the world, the frustration and courage of those who dare to challenge the power of the political corporate world. Paul Hawken states eloquently all that I believe so passionately to be true – that there is inherent goodness at the heart of our humanity, that collectively we can – and are – changing the world. Jane Goodall

        If you have lost a sense of direction in your life, if despair dogs your every step, pick up a pencil and pick up this book. Paul Hawken, without a trace of self-importance, impales a very dark room on the beam of a very bright light here. In his hands, the civil society movement reveals itself as the action that has replaced the talk.
        -Barry Lopez, author of Resistance and Arctic Dreams

      • Salle says:

        Thanks, it sounds interesting. I’ll have to check it out. I just finished reading The Loop by Nicholas Evans. It was a good read… I had to look into that after reading his intro to Carter’s book.

        I’m not in despair but I do have many concerns about what is going on these days, and lots of the past. I’ve already come to a comfortable resolve about most things so that I don’t ruminate about issues with which I have little choice or options. I’ve found that with politics the more you know the scarier it is.

  85. Cody Coyote says:

    There’s a good profile piece in the March 3 Portland ‘Oregonian’ newspaper of Carter Niemeyer in the context of his ” Wolfer” book , story by Julie Sullivan, that is also being republished elsewhere ( I saw it first in the Sunday Casper WY Star Tribune)

    Here’s a salient excerpt:
    “the people he wrote the book for — ranchers, sportsmen and outdoorsmen who love the wild places he does — likely won’t read it, he says.

    The wolf issue has become the infuriating symbol of federal intervention in the rural West, leaving many people distrusting or discounting those who have the most scientific knowledge of the subject.

    “You have a tremendous amount of backlash so that now you have self-appointed wolf experts misinforming the public and instilling fear that wolves are going to kill your kids, wipe out elk herds and spread diseases.”

    None of that is true, he says. ” ( endquote)


    • Salle says:

      And he’s absolutely correct.

    • jon says:

      Can anyone say,

      Jim beers
      val geist
      Will Graves
      toby bridges
      don peay

      and the list goes on and on and on…..

      • jon says:

        And no one has ever denied that wolves won’t ever attack a person, but the chance is pretty slim even when you have a decent sized wolf population. I always say if the wolves wanted to attack and kill people in places like Idaho, they would. I’m sure they have had chances to do so, but the fact that they haven’t attacked and killed one person since being reintroduced 16 years ago in the rockies says something. There are by far much greater threats out there and some are worrying about wolves.

  86. Doryfun says:

    Earlier I posted the website,which is a place to sign a petition in support of a movement to eliminate “personhoods” from Corporations.

    I would like to add to this an interesting story about eliminating riders: “We need a constitutional amendment that will eliminate “riders.” Each bill, whether spending or wording legislation, needs to stand on its own. If I want a bill to benefit–say big oil–I am from Oklahoma–then I should be able to get my bill through on its own merits, rather than rolling it in with another bill that provides infrastructure for high speed rail needed on the coasts and just a few metropolitan areas around the country.”

    It seems politician are already divorced from reality when they get to DC.. Most are already millionaires and multi-millionaires that are already corporate employees before they run for office. Then the corporate lobbyists descend upon them. And we think we the people, can get proper representation from this? It might be sky-high-dreaming, but maybe if enough people get fed up with the ways of the corporate crowd and elitist and take aim at dismantling some of ways the game is played, we might at least get a chance to see what things actually are and evaluate them on their own true merit, rather than trying to figure out how all the magic tricks are performed. No wonder people get so fed up with the way our political system works. (just who, does it really work for, anyway; as if no one knows the answer to that question).

    • Nancy says:

      ++If you have lost a sense of direction in your life, if despair dogs your every step, pick up a pencil and pick up this book. Paul Hawken, without a trace of self-importance, impales a very dark room on the beam of a very bright light here++

      Doryfun – I’m gonna stick my neck out here and say (regarding Hawken’s book) that there are few, from what I can gather, on this site that have “lost their way or are in despair” we just can’t seem to relate to facts like cell phones now out number the entire population of this country and Charlie Sheen is at the moment, the most popular person in the world………….

      • Nancy says:

        ment to say “haven’t” lost their way………….

      • Doryfun says:

        Maybe I picked the wrong passage to include in the books description?? Mostly becuase Lopez is such a good wrtier (in my opinion) and good testimonial. I don’t doubt that many on this blog are not in despair or lost their way. They likely wouldn’t be on this blog, if that were so. However, like Salle said about politics, the more you learn, the scarier it gets. Likewise, for environmental problems, and the ridiculous habits of our culture and soceity. (And it seemed that in her loss of sympathy for humans, she might be uplifted by this book.)

        So, I would guess I’m not the only one here who gets quite frustrated at all the negatives that go along with fighting for fish, wildlife, and conservation. You know, the old thing Leopold once said: “One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise.”
        I know I sure find myself throwing my arms in the air and shaking my head sometimes, at all the bullshit that goes on. So it is always nice to find some sort of audacity for hope type book for those in the trenchs of activism.
        Perhaps this quote would have been better to use:Paul Hawken’s writings are always at the cutting edge of environmental thought, original, surprising and shot through with optimism. Blessed Unrest is an uplifting perspective, engendering wonder and hope. For all of us that are squirreling away in our individual small ways, it is inspiring to realize that millions of us can add up to an irresistible force. Read this book and shout “Hallelujah!” — David Suzuki,

  87. Nancy says:

    +There are by far much greater threats out there and some are worrying about wolves+

    Jon – my biggest fear is running into a black cow, standing in the middle of a black stretch of road, at night. Its called Open Range. Another one of those “might of made some sense 50 years ago, although I’m not sure why?” laws that are still in place out here in the west………..Goes hand in hand with actually having to take some sort of responsibility for your livestock.

    • Elk275 says:

      What if that black cow is a black moose, the results will be the same — are you still afraid.

  88. Nancy says:

    Elk – can’t count the amount of times I’ve come close to engaging that “black cow on the road” Once, and only once, have I come close to a moose crossing the road. BIG, BIG difference. Moose cross roads, they usually have a destination in mind, but cattle have a way of lounging on them. Hot pavement, nice place to end up and chew cud when the temps drop at night……………..

    • Immer Treue says:

      The only time I have been in norther Wyoming (early 80’s), I was to meet somebody in Cody, and coming west bound into the Bighorns, the road turned to dirt. At 9pm I was not prepared at all for the cattle that just lolled on the road.

  89. jon says:

    Research bears should be protected from hunters. What is wrong with this world.

  90. REChizmar says:

    Another article I read last week in JH newspaper (during my down time from the slopes), which might interest some here, involved a Montana budgetary study about how MT saves multiple millions of dollars by maintaining the bison buffer b/t Yellowstone and its nothern border – more saving b/c of less testing of livestock for brucellosis. The money numbers thrown out there seemed really high, and I was wondering what some of you more knowledgeable about the topic had to say. Maybe someone could post the link for comment.

  91. Cutthroat says:

    Family and freinds need help finding missing man. Grant Moedl was driving from Rexburg to Boise via Hwy 20 Wednesday afternoon but didn’t show up. He is believed to have last been seen buying a sandwich at a convenience store in Carey, Idaho. His last cell phone transmissions are somewhere near Fairfield/Hill City, Idaho. He is 5’7″, 130#, grey hair, receding hair line, blue eyes, driving a Silver Subaru Outback, license plate 1T 194. If you have any information please ciontact Elmore County Sheriff at 208-587-3370 or Madison County Sheriff 208-356-5426.

    Here is a link with his photograph:

    • jon says:

      Humanity will be the death of itself Salle. That much I’m certain of.

      • Doryfun says:

        An interesting read: “ Human Impact on Ancient Environments.” By Charles Redman. Is there a natural or best environment? Pg 199-200

        From the back cover:

        “Threats to biodiversity, food shortages, urban sprawl… lessons for environmental problems that confront us today may well be found in the past. The archeological record contains hundreds of situations in which societies developed sustainable relationships with their environments – and thousands in which those relationships were destructive.

        Charles Redman shows us that much can be learned from peoples who, through seemingly rational decisions, degraded their environments and threatened their own survival. By discussing cases from around the world – from the deforestation of the Mayan lowlands to the almost total depletion of resources on Easter Island – he reveals the coevolution of culture and environment and shows the impact that prehistoric peoples had on their world. “

        “There is a widespread myth that ancient peoples lived in a virtuous Golden Age of environmental wisdom, and that we evil moderns damage our environments. As long as we continue to believe that myth, history can have nothing to teachus about the environmental crisis facingus today. Redman shows us, instead, how people have been heavily impacting their surroundings for thousands of years – and what we need to learn from history, before it becomes too late.” Jared M. Diamond, autheor of Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies.

        In additional thought:

        In Books that have made History – Books that Can Change Your Life, Professor J. Rufus Fears claims, after reading from “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire , by Gibbon, that only two great super powers ever existed: Rome and the US. Like Rome, all great civilizations before it, eventually fell too. In all cases, none of the people at the time could believe that their own civilization could or would ever crumble. But all did.

        What is the likelihood that we in this country will be the only exception to history? Especially when we keep repeating the same actions as those before us? In this sense, Jon & Salle are probably not far from the truth of where we are headed. Oh, you can add my name to that belief, too.

        While many of us here realize the importance of over populations resulting from us humanoids, a very good book that thoroughly dives into this is dynamic: “Living Within Limits, Ecology, Economics, and Population Taboos,” by Garrett Hardin.

    • jon says:

      One of the commenters wrote about human denial. That is what you see today. Some people do not want to accept and admit that their own species is the cause of all of the big and important problems and issues you see today. We cause far more damage and destruction to the planet, to ourselves, to non-human animals than any other being on this planet. Human population control is something that we need to stop ignoring and start addressing. I would not care as much about this problem if it wasn’t hurting other non-human beings on the earth, but it is and if we don’t get our population under control, there is no doubt that some species of animals will go extinct.

  92. Daniel Berg says:

    “Fracking Disposal Suspended, Likely linked to Arkansas Earthquakes”

  93. Immer Treue says:

    Mech on the wolf species/subspecies “soup”.

    • jon says:

      Thank you immer for that. As I thought all along, a wolf is a wolf. You can bet this will not change the minds of those who truly believe that different subspecies of gray wolves are entirely different wolves from each other. You can’t change the mind of the ignorant.

  94. Daniel Berg says:

    More news on the most recently poached Lookout Pack wolf (Methow Valley, WA):

    “Third wolf poaching was near Rainy Pass”

    Rainy Pass is near Washington Pass on State Route 20.

  95. jon says:

    “Conservation officials said that in North America, wildlife is not considered to be owned by anyone and can be enjoyed by all.”

    • jon says:

      They are doing the samething they did when wolves were reintroduced. The same ol attitudes.

      “There is going to be damage, and people are going to get hurt and there is going to be loss of life sooner or later with this project,” Simpson said.

      Farmers and ranchers don’t want elk reintroduced because they feel that the elk are going to cause problems for their livestock and they believe that the elk are going to kill someone. Gotta love these greedy and selfish ranchers and farmers.

      • Elk275 says:


        You have eaten breakfast and lunch so far today and will eat dinner this evening. I and each of us will do the same. Do not reticule a framer or rancher with a full stomach. I have travel through equatorial African and I have been hungry not for the lack of money but for the lack of available food; I have seem places with anything to eat and went to bed hungry. Framers and Ranchers are not anymore greedy than a lawyer, stockbroker, doctor, union member, illegal immigrant labors or a new business owner.

        There land use practices might not be what you or I perceive as the most environmentally best use , but they produce enough food for all of us to eat.

      • Elk275 says:

        “nothing to eat”


February 2011


‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."

~ Edward Abbey