Moose was well known to local residents-

The moose was left to rot/be scavenged

Cardwell is on the Jefferson River east of Whitehall.

Story. Moose poached.

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About The Author

Ralph Maughan

Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University with specialties in natural resource politics, public opinion, interest groups, political parties, voting and elections. Aside from academic publications, he is author or co-author of three hiking/backpacking guides, and he is President of the Western Watersheds Project.

194 Responses to Montana: Trophy bull moose poached near Cardwell

  1. avatar jdubya says:

    You know, if the person who was charged by the moose only had a can of pepper spray, the death of the moose would not have been necessary.

  2. avatar gline says:

    How do you know they were charged? doesnt say that in the article.. or is that a joke?:)

    That 6,000 fee needs to be raised in a big way.

  3. avatar April says:

    How sick and what a waste. whomever shot this moose was just killing it for pleasure. I hope someone will be brave enough to turn them in for what they did, I am sure they will brag to someone.

  4. avatar Mike says:

    More sad news from the western hunting season.

  5. avatar Virginia says:

    jdubya: I find your attempt at “humor” about this incident very annoying. Poaching isn’t serious to you, I guess.

  6. avatar Talks with Bears says:

    Mike – the article and facts clearly state that this was a “poaching” incident – in other words a crime. Hunting is a legal activity – poaching has nothing to do with the “hunting season”.

  7. avatar gline says:

    lets hear your defense jdubya, is it a little black humor?

  8. avatar Mike says:

    Poaching has nothing to do with the hunting season? Then why do we always get these poaching reports DURING hunting season? It’s easier for people to be out there with guns and not have to explain themselves to authorities. If I was a poacher hunting season would be like a free buffett.

  9. avatar gline says:

    That is a good point Mike.

    I doubt we know of all the poaching that is going on as well. Why don’t the outfitters talk about poaching when complaining about lack of ungulates???

  10. avatar Save bears says:

    Mike,

    Living and working in the wildlife environment, believe me the poaching reports come in year around, during the off season, the news outlets don’t report them the same way they do during a hunting season, but they happen 24/7 12 months of the year…

  11. avatar Save bears says:

    Poaching is a very small part of the annual loss of game animals, when you start looking at the numbers, it is normally less than 1-2% of total mortality over the period of a year…

  12. avatar Talks with Bears says:

    Mike – I tire of your continued interest in disregarding any factual information which does not support your opinions. For your educational purposes I will provide you with the following: Ask any wildlife enforcement professional and they will share that the poacher of a moose is also a poacher of fish is also a poacher of birds – in other words a criminal. That is what poachers do – commit criminal acts against wildlife year round.

  13. avatar gline says:

    Save Bears: Why would the news outlets bring out poaching stories just around hunting season??

  14. avatar Save bears says:

    A good amount of the press, is slanted to the anti-hunting side and they know for a fact, it will not garner the readership it will during hunting season, people are focused on finding violations during hunting season, where is, they are not, when hunters are not afield, but I can guarantee you based on my experience, there are people in the field 12 months of the year, poaching, they don’t buy tags, they basically thumb their nose at the system, it happens all of the time.

    When I was with FWP, one of biggest poaching report months was actually February, and no hunting seasons were active at that time, but the reports accounted for a high percentage of the years mortality..

    Think about it, on a whole, how many hiking stories do you read in the winter, how many trip report pieces do you read, in the winter, when say Yellowstone is pretty much shut down, the news outlets focus both positive and negative stories when they expect the highest readership.

  15. A word of caution, the unusual and the bad are generally news.

    I don’t have any idea if this hunting season has registered more problems, accidents, crimes, and successful hunts than the average.

  16. I guess Save Bears and I had the same idea at about the same time. Our comments were at the same minute.

  17. avatar gline says:

    Yes the new people are so nice to building a positive atmosphere and showing the good! (sarcasm)

  18. avatar gline says:

    Thanks Save bears I just wanted to see your illustration, as I dont think Mike’s point was getting across. But I am sure he can defend himself….

  19. avatar Mike says:

    ++Save Bears: Why would the news outlets bring out poaching stories just around hunting season??++

    Yeah right….I don’t buy this at all.

  20. avatar Mike says:

    ++Ask any wildlife enforcement professional and they will share that the poacher of a moose is also a poacher of fish is also a poacher of birds – in other words a criminal. That is what poachers do – commit criminal acts against wildlife year round.++

    Elk – please accept the fact that there are hunters who do poach.

  21. avatar Mike says:

    Licensed outfitter in Gardiner will see prison time for poaching:

    http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2006/01/26/news/01poaching.txt

  22. avatar Mike says:

    Outfitter keeps license after eagle poaching:

    http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=4192

    I can go on and on with these, but I think my point is made. There are hunters who poach. That is a fact.

  23. avatar jerryB says:

    I’ll bet Save Bears will disagree with me, but people, including hunters are getting turned off to hunting. Incidents such as this, the bear killings and the bloody wolf pictures in the newspapers and on TV are making some rethink whether hunting has the same priority as it has in the past.
    In an email I just received from MFWP it mentions “Hunter numbers are down approximately 10% from both last year and the 5 year average, and a consistent decrease in hunter pressure has been documented at all three check stations.”
    Like it or not, more folks are looking unfavorably at hunters.

  24. avatar jdubya says:

    It was a black moose wasn’t it? Time for a little black humor?

    Last time I was charged by a moose on a narrow mountain trail (thanks to my stupid dog) the only thing I had time to do was jump off the trail and roll 30 feet down the hillside. The moose was smart and stayed on the trail. Trying to deploy either a gun or spray would have just got me run over.

  25. avatar gline says:

    As a reason hunting numbers are going down, its also expensive to hunt.. as elk275 was saying it costs him more to hunt considering all costs involved, then to buy cheap meat at the local grocery store. I think hunting for food is ok, and should be your right, but when you get bad apples thrown in the mix, as we always do, it changes things…

  26. avatar gline says:

    LOL sorry jdubya but that would be quite a sight!

    I dont want to seem I have no sympathy for the poached moose in this story as I do. Kind of like the sorrow I felt when a huge racked city dwelling Mule deer was shot for no reason last winter. I had seen him before he was shot, one morn about 3am. I had gotten up for no reason, went outside, there he was standing in my yard! Beautiful sight, so quiet, just me and him eyeing each other. I let him be and went away. He was a popular dude. A month later he was shot in town. Sucked.

  27. avatar Elk275 says:

    gline

    If I read the reports right it was this weekend only. If it would snow 2 feet tonight hunters would be like flies to fresh buffalo pies. Hunting is weather related now.

  28. avatar Ryan says:

    “If I was a poacher hunting season would be like a free buffett.”

    Actually, thats whan the most enforcement is out, not a good time to poach. Your hunter argument holds no water, Think of it this way A shopper is a shopper, until they steal. At that time they are a shoplifter.

  29. avatar catbestland says:

    This reminds me of the mammoth bull elk known as “Samson” who was a resident mascot in Estes Park near Rocky Mountain Park for many years. He was poached and left to rot in a feild outside of town 10 or 12 years ago. This was a tragic event that left so many people who admired him asking “why?”.

  30. avatar Mike says:

    Actualy it looks like a good time to poach based on the abundance of poaching stories. Bottom line is that the time when the most people are out in the woods with guns, is the time things get killed, wether illegally, legally or in claim of self defense. It’s simple physics.

  31. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    $6,000 for a moose? What would it be for a wolf?

  32. avatar Sal_N says:

    the man who poached TWO wolves paid $1,135

    it was a couple of weeks ago on this blog

    http://wolves.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/mt-man-poaches-2-wolves-pays-1135/

  33. avatar Elk275 says:

    I think that there is a fine and then resitution. The find is less than the resitution, the fine can also include lose of hunting privilages. The resitution for a moose is $6,000 and a large mountain sheep $30,000, yep you just bought a new truck on that one that you will never drive.

    Those that proach steal from others that don’t proach and it is crime. There is proaching a trophy animal and proaching to eat. I believe that the courts are more lienant if the proaching was for a non trophy animal and was killed for human consumption. This is from bit and pieces that I have read in various papers.

    The is no resitution for wolves acording the hunting regulations. This is state law not federal.

  34. avatar Save bears says:

    Mike,

    I really don’t care if you buy it or not, I have the information from the agency I worked, for, you have the news to rely on..so believe what you want and I will believe the facts as compiled by the agencies..

  35. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    $6,000 for a moose and $30,000 for a bighorn sheep but $1,135 for a wolf. Shows the priorities. Poaching is poaching no matter what the species.

  36. avatar Todd Wilkinson says:

    FYI: This is actually the second year in a row that a moose was poached near Cardwell.

  37. avatar Cobra says:

    I think we’ll actually start to see more poaching. With the economy the way it is and so many out of work people will do whatever is necessary to try and get by.
    It really sucks they poached this bull but it sucks even more they left it to rot. I hope they really give it to the poacher.

  38. avatar catbestland says:

    It’s too bad they are not poaching range cattle.

  39. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    It’s too bad they are not poaching range cattle.

    That could be a good way to get some good grass-fed beef. 😉

  40. catbestland,

    From what I have heard over the years, there is a fair amount of rustling that goes on, plus those who really do decide to put some beef in the freezer for the winter.

    It is not discussed much by the livestock folks who run cattle on public and remote private lands.

  41. avatar josh sutherland says:

    Mike your ignorance of hunting out West gets more obvious each day.

  42. avatar Mike says:

    Josh – just because you and your group adhere to the laws doesn’t mean everyone else does. You are sweeping the problem under the rug because you think it makes your hobby look bad. That’s an apologetic stance rather than a productive one.

  43. avatar Save bears says:

    Mike,

    ++just because you and your group adhere to the laws doesn’t mean everyone else does++

    I think that goes without saying, in just about every single sector of life!

    And your point is Mike?

  44. avatar Mike says:

    ++I think that goes without saying, in just about every single sector of life!++

    I know you are scrambling here to defend your hobby, but do you think you could keep things on topic?

    Every single sector of life does not kill endangered grizzly bears, or shoot bull moose and leave them to rot when they mess up.

    You and Josh seem to just like to sweep this under the rug. Hunters never do anything wrong, they are perfect. That’s why these poaching stories crop up *during* hunting season….

    It’s like yo udon’t dare question what some of these hunters are doing, almost like some weird cult that can never be doubted.

  45. avatar Save bears says:

    Mike,

    I don’t hunt for hobby, I hunt to feed my family, 95% of my meat consuption comes from wild meat every year and has for over 15 years now, because frankly I don’t have the money to buy at the current prices in the store, and now I don’t spend a lot of money hunting, as I hunt right outside the front door, I did when I lived in Montana, I do now in Idaho and I will when I move to Washington, it has been close to 4 months since I have eaten commercial processed meat!

    Now, on to your claim of I don’t believe hunters do anything wrong, that is a bunch of bullshit, I just happen to have a different definition of criminal that you do.

    You have no concept of what a hunter is, and your group them all the same, well there are quite a few of us, that you have no idea of what we stand for or what we do, to stop criminals from poaching!

    People like you are one of the biggest reasons, there is such a void between the two sides.

  46. avatar Mike says:

    Save Bears –

    I spent a lot of time hunting when I was younger. I still fish. I grew up in family that hunts. I experienced “thrill kill” hunts that left a sour taste. This thrill kill style of huting is being popularized today by prairie dog shooting, and coyote tournaments where people get pumped about “head shots”, and where people shoot stuff just because they can.

    Let me makes this very, very clear:

    PETA isn’t ruining your hobby. People who question some of the aspects aren’r ruining the hobby(myself) – HUNTERS are ruining the hobby. They do almost all of the work for PETA.

    The people who apologize for the prairie dog and coyote tournaments are hurting their sport,. The faction of the hunters who don’t come down hard on the arcade mentality aspects of the hobby are hurting their sport. When hunters don’t come out with slamming rebukes to big poaching stories, they hurt their sport. When hunters complain about a “lib conspiracy” they are hurting their sport.

  47. avatar Elk275 says:

    Mike

    YOU ARE MILD MIKE. Go over to Monster Mulies, 24 Hour Campfire and the Alaskan Hunting form. Twenty Four Hour Campfire is as conservative as they come. When it comes to hunters proaching, there saying is “GET A ROPE”. Mike you should get a GRIP.

  48. avatar Save bears says:

    Mike,

    Please point out where I said anything about PETA, please point out where I said anything about shooting coyotes, prairie dogs, or shooting things just because they can? I don’t shoot coyotes, I don’t hunt prairie dogs and I don’t shoot things just because I can, I condemn ever single instance of poaching, IT IS ILLEGAL AND THEY NEED TO BE PUNISHED, I have repeatedly stated that on this blog as well as many others!

    Do you have any concept of how hunters feel about assholes that steal from EVERY single one of us, I have NEVER seen anyone on this blog condone poaching! And I know for a fact that when I was with FWP, we received calls every single day from hunters turning in poaching incidents…

    Now is that CLEAR enough for you???????????

  49. avatar Save bears says:

    And your idea it is a HOBBY is as wrong as it comes to many of us that live in the west!

  50. avatar Mike says:

    Good! This type of anger and defensive reaction to these stories is exactly what hunting groups should be doing to help their sport. Press releases should be made, ads should be taken out to denounce these actions….

    ….except they are not.

    ++ I don’t shoot coyotes, I don’t hunt prairie dogs and I don’t shoot things just because I can, I condemn ever single instance of poaching++

    Save Bears, do you condone the arcade style of hunting such as prairie dog shooting?

  51. avatar Mike says:

    ++And your idea it is a HOBBY is as wrong as it comes to many of us that live in the west!++

    Ok, religion then……

  52. avatar Save bears says:

    Mike,

    Can you read????????????

    If I did, I would be out blasting the little leg breakers away, I don’t shoot anything I can’t eat! I love squirrel meat, but don’t like prairie dog meat, to damn rangy for me!

    As far as sportsman opposed to poaching, there are just as many condemnation press releases as well as sportsman orgainzations offering reward money to catch these assholes as there stories about poachers, you just don’t get to see them because the freaking press won’t report on them!

  53. avatar Save bears says:

    Mike,

    You are really being a jerk tonight!

    What you call my hobby is my food, glad you have 7-11 and safeway that you can afford to go to, there is not a safeway or 7-11 within 60 miles of me..and I would not have the money to pay for that crap if there was!

  54. avatar Save bears says:

    Remember that Bull Moose that was poached that started this entry into the blog, belonged to me as much as it did to you, and I hope they catch the person who did it, as I do the one who killed the 800 pound bear as I do, every single time an animal is found that is poached…Of course the difference is, I would have hunted the Moose, if I had a tag and would have enjoyed the meat as well as the rack, in the mean time, you just condemn “Hunters” You probably hunted because it was expected in your family!

  55. avatar Mike says:

    ++Mike,

    You are really being a jerk tonight!
    ++

    I’m finally responding to your endless parade of personal attacks. Usually I just don’t respond.

    ++What you call my hobby is my food, glad you have 7-11 and safeway that you can afford to go to, there is not a safeway or 7-11 within 60 miles of me..and I would not have the money to pay for that crap if there was!
    ++

    Who ever said I was against you hunting? Why can’t I question some aspects of the hobby without you getting so defensive? I’ve stated many times before I am in favor of sustenance hunting for ungulates and birds. Things I am not in favor of are baiting, trapping, trophy hunting and the arcade style prairie dog and varmint stuff that seems to be all the rage these days.

  56. avatar Mike says:

    ++Remember that Bull Moose that was poached that started this entry into the blog, belonged to me as much as it did to you, and I hope they catch the person who did it, as I do the one who killed the 800 pound bear as I do, every single time an animal is found that is poached…++

    I get what you are saying but I don’t think any animmal “belongs” to us, like a watch or a dvd.

    ++Of course the difference is, I would have hunted the Moose, if I had a tag and would have enjoyed the meat as well as the rack, in the mean time, you just condemn “Hunters” You probably hunted because it was expected in your family!++

    I hunted because the people around me did. The behaviour was not acceptable. Thinking back on it now, there was poaching going on. I know this is not the majority, but in my excperience it seems to be quite a few people who do this, even some people who support wilderness.

  57. avatar Jay says:

    SB–how about this: that moose belongs to itself, it doesn’t belong to you, me, or anybody else–it’s a living creature that live a free life. It does, however, participate in the big game of life, and you have the right to go out and pursue it to feed yourself (as allowed by our human rules and regulations), as much as that moose has the right to attempt to get away and live another day.

    No doubt you’ll disagree, but deplore the concept that wildlife is a commodity that is stockpiled on the land for us to go out and “liquidate”.

  58. avatar Save bears says:

    No, Jay,

    I use the natural resources in a prudent legal manner to provide sustenance for my family and I have no problem with playing the pursuit game, in fact it is part of the enjoyment and guess what, I loose far more often than I win, I didn’t say that wildlife is a commodity! I said, I hunt to provide for my family, and will continue to do so..

    Jeeze where did you guys learn to read between the lines so well that you can tell me what I mean!

    This is getting ridiculous!

  59. avatar Save bears says:

    Well at least we agree on one thing Mike, Sustenance hunting is acceptable…where I disagree is not all hunting is a hobby and there are more and more people hunting for food because of the screwed up economy in the US, especially in the West, we seem to run about 18 months behind the rest of the country when it comes to the economy, because we are so small a part of the population…

    As far as personal attacks, now that it has come to that, you seem to be a master at the game, I am not personally attacking you, but I am condemning your ideals of what a hunter is and how it happens in my neck of the “woods”

    I am sure, we will continue to dig at each other and suspect we actually believe pretty much on the same lines about many things that concern wildlife, wild spaces and how it should be taken care of, the difference it, I don’t spend 40-50 tent nights a year, I spend 365 days a year..

  60. avatar Jay says:

    “Remember that Bull Moose that was poached that started this entry into the blog, belonged to me as much as it did to you, and I hope they catch the person who did it…”–Save Bears

    You are a world class jackass.

  61. avatar Save bears says:

    Wow, Jay,

    Now that was an original “Personal Attack” You know damn well what I meant when I wrote it, you just want to start a fight again as you often do…

    What the hell hit you in the ass tonight, the moose in our current society is managed for the benefit of all people, remember. whether it be hunters, watchers, etc.

  62. avatar Ryan says:

    ++Good! This type of anger and defensive reaction to these stories is exactly what hunting groups should be doing to help their sport. Press releases should be made, ads should be taken out to denounce these actions….

    ….except they are not.++

    Mike,
    Why don’t you try a little research, every major group offers rewards, unfortunately they aren’t direct linked to the DNC website and only evil knuckle dragger frequent those sites.

    BTW, I do shoot sage rats. Its done on agricultural lands as pest removal, better than chemicals IMHO.

  63. avatar Save bears says:

    Just remember, every single wildlife watcher lost as well as legal hunters lost with the poaching of this moose, despite which side your on, we all lost and I hope they catch the person who did it, pull his guns, his ability to hunt as well as fine the heck out of him and let him spend a bit of time in a small cell with a guy named bubba!

    And at least I am world class as something!

    LOL

  64. avatar Mike says:

    ++BTW, I do shoot sage rats. Its done on agricultural lands as pest removal, better than chemicals IMHO.++

    I figured as much, Ryan. I have no idea what you are doing o na wildlife blog.

  65. avatar Mike says:

    ++Well at least we agree on one thing Mike, Sustenance hunting is acceptable…where I disagree is not all hunting is a hobby and there are more and more people hunting for food because of the screwed up economy in the US, especially in the West, we seem to run about 18 months behind the rest of the country when it comes to the economy, because we are so small a part of the population…++

    I would be willing to bet we agree on more things than we would disagree. I’m not willing to lose an allie in roadless conservation because we differ on some aspects of hunting.

    ++As far as personal attacks, now that it has come to that, you seem to be a master at the game, I am not personally attacking you, but I am condemning your ideals of what a hunter is and how it happens in my neck of the “woods”

    ++I am sure, we will continue to dig at each other and suspect we actually believe pretty much on the same lines about many things that concern wildlife, wild spaces and how it should be taken care of, the difference it, I don’t spend 40-50 tent nights a year, I spend 365 days a year..
    ++

    You have 40-50 tent nights a year there purely devoted to the outdoors with no TV, no other tasks? That’s impressive.

  66. avatar Ryan says:

    Mike,

    Only people who agree on everything should post here. I make no apologies for what I have done or am going to do. BTW, this is not a wildlife blog, its about western issues. Unfortunately you seemed to have missed that in viewing this blog. Oh yeah, I shoot coyotes to. I also write letters and show up at hearings to stop land grabs and fight development of our public lands. I’ve worked extensively with watershed restoration projects in Oregon.

  67. avatar Ryan says:

    I had 40 nights plus in a tent this year does that mean my opinion is as valid as yours?

  68. avatar Save bears says:

    Mike,

    I don’t own a TV, I do watch DVD’s on my computer, and I don’t take my computer with me when I am camping or hunting.

  69. avatar Mike says:

    Ryan – blowing away “sage rats” for fun shows a complete lack of respect for wildlife. I think you should be emabarrassed.

  70. avatar Ryan says:

    Its no different than trapping a mouse in your house.

  71. avatar Mike says:

    All mice I trap get relocated, not killed. We had a squirrel problem a couple years back and those were also live trapped.

    Going out and shooting prairie dog after prairie dog to see them explode is a very distrubing and flawed behavior – probably one that would need to be analyzed by a mental health specialist.

  72. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    Going out and shooting prairie dog after prairie dog to see them explode is a very disturbing and flawed behavior – probably one that would need to be analyzed by a mental health specialist.

    I agree with that sentiment. It’s one thing to control populations, but to shoot and have fun watching them blow up is warped.

  73. avatar Mike says:

    Here’s a thought – if you want to control prairie dog populations, stop shooting coyotes, badgers and foxes! Maybe we shouldn’t have posisined the black footered ferret to near extinction too.

    In the end, wildlife problems always end up being caused by ourselves.

  74. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    Amen to that Mike!

  75. avatar Elk275 says:

    I go out to Barnes and Noble to read the new magizines and had three cups tea and this forum is heating up my the minute. I did have a nice chat with an old friend, Bob Crabtree, a independent wildlife biologist, who I have not seem since I moved my office. We very brief talk about some of the current issues being discussed. Everyone has different ideas.

  76. avatar Elk275 says:

    As far as the ownship of that moose from what I have read it was probably shot on private land as there is very little public land in Jefferson River Valley. That moose belongs to the State of Montana.

  77. avatar Save bears says:

    And who does the State of Montana belong to Elk?

  78. avatar Elk275 says:

    The people of Montana, so it belongs to all of the residents of the state.

  79. avatar Save bears says:

    Very Good Elk…as I have not established a permanent residency outside the state of Montana

  80. avatar josh sutherland says:

    Mike poaching is very proactive, in fact on my hunting blog there are stories weekly of hunters turning in criminals during the hunting season. Hunters in fact get rewarded with limited entry tags to turn in poachers, a Henries deer tag in UT would take almost 30 years to draw, you get the next year if you turn in a poacher. To say hunters are not active against poachers is a ridiculous statement. Too say the least.

  81. Josh and everyone,

    Again and again, I see folks overgeneralizing about hunters and non-hunters. They come in all shapes, sizes, motivations, and law-abidingness.

    I doubt any hunter on this blog poaches, but in certain locales poaching is endemic. Teton County, Idaho at one time had a real reputation. You can probably name notorious places yourself. And poachers can hold office. Idaho Fish and Game won’t bring poaching cases before judges in certain Idaho counties, although I doubt they would admit it. Bring a guilty plea on poaching before some judges and it is treated like a parking ticket.

    About ten years ago, one of our graduate students, a divorced women, told how she had been married to a county commissioner in an Idaho county. She claimed he was the biggest poacher in the county. Knowing his lack of lawfulness myself in other areas of outdoor activity, I tended to believe her.

    Yes, whatever your motivation for being out there, please keep turning in poachers.

  82. avatar Cobra says:

    Sometimes I think a few people forget that most of us hunters are the biggest wildlife watchers and advocates of all. I’ll bet if some of the hunters here told some stories about what they’ve seen out while hunting or scouting people would be amazed. The most rewarding seaons or days hunting do not always result in a kill. I can remember taking a little nap one day while archery hunting, something on my leg woke me up and when I looked down there was a weasle sitting on my knee trying to figure out what I was. He would run down to my boot and then back up to my knees, probably went on for at least a minute before he left still not knowing what the hell he had seen. Little things like this makes a season or a day the most rewarding.
    There are a lot of neat things that happen in the woods and hunter and non-hunters can and should enjoy them. We’re all wildlife watchers just some of us use the resources a little differently. Although some of us use the meat for the freezer or just enjoy hunting it doesn’t mean we care less about wildlife.

  83. avatar Ryan says:

    ++Here’s a thought – if you want to control prairie dog populations, stop shooting coyotes, badgers and foxes! Maybe we shouldn’t have posisined the black footered ferret to near extinction++

    Mike,
    Here is the problem with that theory. Badgers dig huge holes in their search for ground squirrels, Coyotes and foxes aren’t particullay adept at catching ground squirrels either. There are no ferrets to my knowledge in Oregon, WA, or Nevada to my knowledge. Coyotes get a free pass on some private ground, until they kill a Dog, cat, or livestock. From that point on they are shot onsite. I hunt Coyotes for the pelts and enjoy working with the fur, even though it is near worthless now. (I got 12.00 a pelt last year at the fur rondevous)

    Cobra,

    Its funny you should mention that, one of my favorite out door memories was sitting in camp in remote nw Alaska watching a grizzly bear slap box with ravens over a gut pile. I watched him for 2 hours through the spotting scope.

  84. avatar Ryan says:

    ++Going out and shooting prairie dog after prairie dog to see them explode is a very distrubing and flawed behavior – probably one that would need to be analyzed by a mental health specialist.++

    The same could be said for wanting to live in Chicago.. Its all about perspective and background.

  85. avatar April clauson says:

    Shooting anything just to watch it die or suffer means that person is a sick demented soul that needs to be shot in the ass for good measure and guns taken away from them! I am glad coyote pelts are cheap, now maybe you will stop killing them. And killing squirrels? Ryan you are one sick puppy! I hope karma comes back at ya with both barrels!

  86. avatar catbestland says:

    This is why I ask the question – Why is it that when children kill animals for pleasure, they are often labled as mentally disturbed and are treated with drugs or intensive therapy in hopes that they will not grow up to be a threat to society, yet when trophy hunters kill animals for pleasure it is called a “way of life” or a “God given right.” the rest of society has to give them a pass no matter how offensive this behavior is.

  87. Cobra wrote:

    “Sometimes I think a few people forget that most of us hunters are the biggest wildlife watchers and advocates of all.”

    When I hunted I enjoyed the outdoors and watching wildlife. The least interest came after the kill. Then it was all work. I didn’t really care about the venison much. I never shot a trophy.

    I quit hunting in my 20s to enjoy other outdoors pursuits like backpacking, rock climbing, fishing, and photography. I have written all or in part 3 backpacking guides.

    Now when I go out I’m always sure to take notes on what the livestock people are doing and other outdoors users. This proven useful in lawsuits — pleasure and a sense I am making the outdoors better.

    So hunting can provide an introduction to the outdoors. Given today’s couch potatos, that is very important, but hunting is hardly needed to maintain an interest in the outdoors and wildlife.

  88. avatar Talks with Bears says:

    ++Shooting anything just to watch it die or suffer means that person is a sick demented soul that needs to be shot in the ass for good measure and guns taken away from them!++

    April, I guess your much beloved wolves – livestock thrill killers – are just as bad as Ryan, no?

  89. avatar gline says:

    Talks with bears:
    wolves are animals and are killing for food… not to kill for thrill. Read David mech’s research on wolf hunting, how they do it and why. Much of the evil the wolf gets is because of the mis-notion that they themselves kill for fun. So some humans retaliate. wolves dont know what retaliation is. they are animals. they will lay down the law in their own pack to keep order – but that is not nearly as bad as what we do to them.

  90. avatar gline says:

    “The woods are overrun and sons of bitches like me are half the problem.”
    -Colin Fletcher

  91. avatar Talks with Bears says:

    gline – talk to the rancher near dillion that lost 120 sheep to the thrill killing wolves earlier this year – he would like to hear your thoughts.

  92. avatar gline says:

    he needs to read david mech’s research on that- as I told you to. There are scientific reasons for that if you care to educate yourself.

  93. avatar catbestland says:

    Talks with bears says,

    “April, I guess your much beloved wolves – livestock thrill killers – are just as bad as Ryan, no?”

    Wolves are animals designed to kill as an integral part of healthy ecosystems. Ryan or any other trophy hunter is, well. . . supposed to be human.

  94. avatar Mike says:

    ++This is why I ask the question – Why is it that when children kill animals for pleasure, they are often labled as mentally disturbed and are treated with drugs or intensive therapy in hopes that they will not grow up to be a threat to society, yet when trophy hunters kill animals for pleasure it is called a “way of life” or a “God given right.” the rest of society has to give them a pass no matter how offensive this behavior is.++

    That’s a very interesting question. I think this more applies to those who do the arcade style of hunting(prairie dog, coyote) than the other forms.

  95. avatar Mike says:

    ++The same could be said for wanting to live in Chicago.. Its all about perspective and background.++

    I’m not sure how you can compare shooting dozens of prairie dogs for fun to living in Chicago.

  96. avatar Elk275 says:

    Mike

    ++That’s a very interesting question. I think this more applies to those who do the arcade style of hunting(prairie dog, coyote) than the other forms.++

    Over 90% of this happens on private land and it is not your’s or my business what a person does with they private property. Both ground squirrels and coyotes are not on the endangered list and that is the way it goes.

  97. avatar Talks with Bears says:

    Catbestland – so you agree – wolves are thrill killers, in a natural healthy sorta way………..

  98. avatar catbestland says:

    “Thrill killers?” I think a more appropriate word for wolves would be “Instinct killers”. We’ll reserve the term “thrill killers” for trophy hunters.

  99. avatar gline says:

    why is it so hard to believe wolves are NOT thrill killers? does it upset your ego?

  100. We don’t know what goes through the mind of an animal, although the closer they are to us genetically, the better our guess (I guess). For example, chimps.

    They have been observed committing chimp genocide, and eating other chimps — certain groups have.

    Now wolves being strict carnivores, I doubt they thrill kill. I think they just feel satisfied when they have enough to eat and the kill wasn’t too hard.

    One exception, I think there is something about domestic sheep that sometimes triggers the urge (or whatever) to kill them all. This is not limited to wolves, but other canids attack them in mass and some other predatory animals.

    Funny, cattlemen in the 19th century had the same urge 😉

  101. avatar Talks with Bears says:

    gline – help me on this one, wolves killed 120 sheep near dillon,mt – they consumed half of one – the rest were left to waste – why is it so hard for you to accept this as fact?

  102. avatar Ryan says:

    ++I’m not sure how you can compare shooting dozens of prairie dogs for fun to living in Chicago.++

    Its easy, the thought of living in Chicago is so distasteful to me, I’d rather be homless or dead than live there.

  103. avatar Ryan says:

    “Shooting anything just to watch it die or suffer means that person is a sick demented soul that needs to be shot in the ass for good measure and guns taken away from them! I am glad coyote pelts are cheap, now maybe you will stop killing them. And killing squirrels? Ryan you are one sick puppy! I hope karma comes back at ya with both barrels!

    April and Cat,

    Where did I ever imply that I enjoy any sort of suffering, the goal is always a quick and humane kill. Thats taught in every hunter safety class instilled by people mentoring young hunters.

    April,

    Your Hysterics and lack of knowledge are comical at best from what I have read so far.

    We’ve been round and round about this before.

  104. avatar Mike says:

    ++Over 90% of this happens on private land and it is not your’s or my business what a person does with they private property. Both ground squirrels and coyotes are not on the endangered list and that is the way it goes++

    Thanks for showing your support for the senseless “thrill kill” style of hunting that wil do more than anything PETA ever could to hurt that sport.

    If someone is decimating local wildlife populations, that’s everyone’s business. There are many things a landowner can do on his property that effects others.

  105. avatar Mike says:

    ++Its easy, the thought of living in Chicago is so distasteful to me, I’d rather be homless or dead than live there++

    More distasteful than killing prairie dogs and getting some wierd, perverse rush when you see blood spray?

  106. avatar Ryan says:

    ++ More distasteful than killing prairie dogs and getting some wierd, perverse rush when you see blood spray?++

    Ahh now your telling me how I think, sure your not a Condsending Self righteous all knowing Lib? 🙂

    I’ve been to Chicago, I think prision is a better option than living there.

  107. avatar April clauson says:

    What ever ya think Ryan, but one day karma will catch up to you, your the one that said (I believe) you enjoy killing prairie dogs and seeing the blood spray. Yep, that is humane hunting ethics alright! and what in the world are you doing shooting squirrels, you must have to kill 10 to make a meal! just go kill homeless cats instead, then you get more meat and are really helping out the birds!!! UGH!!!

  108. avatar Virginia says:

    The sheep rancher in Dillon admitted (Billings Gazette) that there were no measures taken to guard/protect his sheep. Also, Mike – since you are fairly new to this website – Ryan wants to kill everything at his pleasure, coyotes and all of those other unnecessary animals.

  109. avatar gline says:

    I’m not arguing fact Talks with Bears. You seem to be ignoring science… wolves don’t kill for thrill. Movement sets them off, and with domestic livestock, it is whole different story for them then wild animals. It is not human to kill an animal because you think it is thrill seeking by killing… look at the science and that is my last reply on this redundant conversation.

  110. avatar gline says:

    *humane not human

  111. avatar Mike says:

    Virginia – I have no idea what Ryan is doing on a wildlife blog except to troll people who actually are concerned about wildlife.

    Even more strange is his recent admission that he witnessed a kidnapping and assault on a ranger. Hopefully Ryan can give us some more info on that one.

  112. avatar Ryan says:

    Mike,

    The guy was an arrogant dick. Probably a lot like you, from back east, thought that because he had a badge it gave him the right to be a prick and flex his muscle. He messed with the locals to many times and got taught a lesson. I didn’t do it, but I didn’t turn the guys in who did it either. All I know is that I was glad to see him gone off the river. His replacement was a nice guy and he’s still there to my knowledge.

    I’m not trolling, if you’ve read here very much, this blog is about Habitat, the keystone for wildlife conservation as much as it is about anything else. Wolves and such tend to be hot button emotional subject as does poaching, but are almost a non issue comparision to much bigger threats across the west. BTW, If you ever read a hunting forum or blog, you’d know that hunters are ready to get a lynch mob out for almost any poacher. Unfortunately, people like you divide the two user groups which could be a great ally in protecting the resources we all share. So what if I shoot a few coyotes or sage rats.. Does it affect you.. Nope. If we site here and fight amongst ourselves while big land grabs happen that take away access for all of us we both lose.

  113. avatar Mike says:

    ++The guy was an arrogant dick. Probably a lot like you
    , from back east, thought that because he had a badge it gave him the right to be a prick and flex his muscle. He messed with the locals to many times and got taught a lesson. I didn’t do it, but I didn’t turn the guys in who did it either. All I know is that I was glad to see him gone off the river. His replacement was a nice guy and he’s still there to my knowledge. ++

    Nice personal attack there, Ryan. So where did this assault take place?

    ++Nope. If we site here and fight amongst ourselves while big land grabs happen that take away access for all of us we both lose.++

    What land grabs are you referring to?

  114. avatar josh sutherland says:

    Mike,

    How many hours have you donated of your time to securing and protecting valuable habitat? I get to donate about 20 hours a year to habitat protections. From guzzlers to tearing down fences to removing noxious weeds. In fact around 10,000 UT hunters participate each year. I have NEVER seen a non-hunter at one of the work projects, yet they could come if they want. I feel they are to busy blogging and living in IL to do much more than complain online. JMO

  115. avatar Mike says:

    hahha, ok Josh. There’s no such thing as a non-hunter who cares about the environment.

  116. avatar josh sutherland says:

    I know non-hunters care about the environment, but caring and doing something are totally different, thats why I know you have probably put lots of hours in doing work projects with the Forest Service and probably the National Park personnel to help protect and take care of the thing you say you love so much. Just tell us which ones you have been involved in…. I have a slight feeling you have NEVER done any sort of work project protecting what you love so much, I guess your blog will have to do. Thats my point, when it comes to man power on the ground, you can count on hunters to be there pulling more than their fair share of the work.

  117. avatar Mike says:

    Josh – We can get into this game all day long. I’ve worked my tail off on many conservation issues, both physical labor and paper pushing.

    Instead of me doing the talking, I’ll let them do the talking:

    http://www.wilderness-sportsman.com/wsblog/wp-content/gallery/wilderness/valleysnowgrizzly4.jpg

  118. avatar JB says:

    “…around 10,000 UT hunters participate each year. I have NEVER seen a non-hunter at one of the work projects…I feel they [non-hunters] are to busy blogging and living in IL to do much more than complain online…”

    Indeed, for most people (hunters and non-hunters alike), living in Illinois would pose a considerable barrier to participating in habitat restoration projects in Utah. 😉

  119. avatar Ryan says:

    ++Nice personal attack there, Ryan. So where did this assault take place?++

    Mike,

    I seem to have forgot where gumshoe. 🙂

    There have been a bunch of them over the years, the latest one was a land trade in the steens that was a bad bad idea. I have worked on some access issues as well. Mostly private land owners trying to block access to public land. I also do alot of work with fishieries issues, including carcass placement, stream surveys, and I got to help on a genetic testing project this year.

    So what have you done for the grizzlies in the picture?

  120. avatar gline says:

    Wow Josh, you should check out your local Sierra Club. We have many service project outings that include tearing down old fencing so Elk can get through in the winter, and restoration of trees to old mining sites. Wake up and smell the coffee.

  121. avatar Save bears says:

    Boy I can’t count the number of miles of fencing I helped pull on weekends with the Rocky Mtn Elk Foundation, I know it seemed like it would never end…

  122. avatar Ryan says:

    SB,

    Thats different though, an evil organization did it. Just like SFW buying cattle allotments, removing invasive species etc. The only good work can come from Sierra Club, defenders, etc.

  123. avatar Save bears says:

    Oh! Hmmm…

  124. avatar JB says:

    “Thats different though, an evil organization did it. Just like SFW buying cattle allotments, removing invasive species etc. The only good work can come from Sierra Club, defenders, etc.”

    Wait a minute?! Josh attacked non-hunting conservationists for not doing their fair share of habitat restoration work and Gline countered that the Sierra Club works on lots of restoration projects. Instead of address the content of his post you simply switch the attack?!

    You know, you really undermine your credibility when you piss and moan about how hunters are unfairly cast on this blog only to turn around and do the same to non-hunters.

  125. avatar Ryan says:

    JB,

    I never said they didn’t do good work. The nature conservancy does great things here locally. That being said, certain people tend to autamatically villify any group with hunting ties as “evil” no matter the good work that they do.

  126. avatar bigbrowntrout says:

    This topic has been all over the place. Chicago in my book, as far as cities goes is hard to beat. Nice folks, beautiful lake, good fishing, great food and DA Bears. And the cubs of course.
    Some folks certainly think that wolves have little angel wings and never do anything wrong. Others, think they have little horns and are devil beasts. Wolves do occasionally practice surplus killing-meaning they kill more than they eat. In my experience its usually younger wolves getting very excited. It does happen, and for some folks seeing a dozen dead sheep who were not consumed, can leave a very bad taste. People who mow down critters with rifles and eat none of it, also leave a bad taste. Just try to understand that alot of these issues there is alot of middle ground that many folks dont like to see. There is extremists on both sides.

    As for hunters enjoying watching animals suffer and die. Seriously??? I am with Ralph love the whole part of hunting. But once the shot is fired, pulling the trigger is the easy part. After that the real work begins.

  127. avatar josh sutherland says:

    Mike you just posted a picture of bears….?? I guess you did something for the bears I guess. What is it you did exactly?

    Gline, Thats good, they should do MORE. I checked the local branch here and all they offer is guided hikes in the mtns. You should email them and let them know about all the projects that are being done around. Now I just wish those green groups would be more proactive on the ground instead of the courtroom.

  128. avatar Ryan says:

    Josh,

    He writes a blog about stuff and takes pictures. Much more valuable than removing fences, aspen retoration projects etc.

  129. avatar Mike says:

    ++Wait a minute?! Josh attacked non-hunting conservationists for not doing their fair share of habitat restoration work and Gline countered that the Sierra Club works on lots of restoration projects. Instead of address the content of his post you simply switch the attack?!

    You know, you really undermine your credibility when you piss and moan about how hunters are unfairly cast on this blog only to turn around and do the same to non-hunters.++

    JB – Josh and Ryan aren’t really concerned with wildlife. They are simply trolls looking to pick a fight.

  130. avatar Ryan says:

    ++ JB – Josh and Ryan aren’t really concerned with wildlife. They are simply trolls looking to pick a fight. ++

    If you can’t intelligently debate with them, minimize em.

    So I’ll ask you again?

    So what have you done for the grizzlies in the picture besides post an entry in your blog ? What groups have you done on the ground habitat resortation with?

    I’ll fire back that your no better, your looking for a fight every time you post here. Your condscending and self righteous one line comments to anyone who does see things your way are no better.

    I bet dollars to donuts, you’ve never worked on a ranch, never worked on a farm, never had near near death expirience with a large wild predator, never lived in a rural area, yet you run your mouth heels like you know all. Its like a carpenter who has read a book about building but has absolutely no real world expirience to back it up.

  131. avatar Mike says:

    Pretty defensive, eh Ryan? Getting into an argument with you is like sticking a finger in a light socket and thinking there will be a good outcome.

    I’m not going to get into who did what and who sees wildlife, etc. I’ll let the picture do the talking. When it’s 30 degrees and snowing thick, and it takes from sunrise until 10 AM to get that shot, it should tell you that the person behind the camera has, does and is involved with grizzly preservation.

  132. avatar Mike says:

    ++Gline, Thats good, they should do MORE. I checked the local branch here and all they offer is guided hikes in the mtns. You should email them and let them know about all the projects that are being done around. Now I just wish those green groups would be more proactive on the ground instead of the courtroom.++

    Without the green groups there’s no wilderness and no grizzly bears. There’s reduced secure elk habitat as well.

  133. avatar Ryan says:

    ++Without the green groups there’s no wilderness and no grizzly bears. There’s reduced secure elk habitat as well.++

    Mike,

    Do you have any facts to back that up?

  134. avatar Ryan says:

    “When it’s 30 degrees and snowing thick, and it takes from sunrise until 10 AM to get that shot, it should tell you that the person behind the camera has, does and is involved with grizzly preservation.”

    Mike,

    It says you wanted to take a picture, no more, no less.

  135. avatar Mike says:

    ++Do you have any facts to back that up?++

    Are you kidding me?

    As far as grizzly conservation comment – think again, Ryan.

  136. avatar Ryan says:

    Mike,

    Nope not kidding you.

    See like here would be an example..

    http://www.rmef.org/AboutUs/FoundationFacts/

    I have a bunch of grizzly and brown bear pictures that I have taken as well, there just picture. I have some wolf pictures I took as a kid. Doesn’t say anything about my consevation ethic or any thing else.

  137. avatar Mike says:

    Ryan, why do you think that green groups have nothing to do with roadless conservation?

  138. avatar nabeki says:

    Talks with Bears Says:
    gline – talk to the rancher near dillion that lost 120 sheep to the thrill killing wolves earlier this year – he would like to hear your thoughts.
    ================
    I’m sure for always and ever we will be hearing about Dillon, while man is the number one predator on this planet that kills for fun.

    Here’s an interesting article that explains wolf behavior.
    http://www.slate.com/id/2234729/

    Hmmm, killing for fun, I guess humans are only allowed to do that.

    http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com

  139. avatar Save bears says:

    I have to agree with Ralph,

    The hunt is awesome, once the trigger is pulled, then the work begins, but the reward is nice non chemical laden meat, but it is indeed a lot of work!

    That said, I am quite excited, my grandson called me the other day and he has now passed his hunters education class at 100% and will be getting my first gun handed down to him, for a Christmas present, it is a Marlin 336 30-30 so he can indeed find out if hunting is an activity he wants to participate in.

    Hunting is a great activity, pulling the trigger and watching an animal die, takes a bit more, I hope I have taught him well, to enjoy the hunt, and show the required respect when you are successful, the next fall season will indeed be a time of learning..

  140. avatar Mike says:

    Save Bears – what are your thoughts on the use of lead bullets? These often end up fragmenting in game animals, poisong eagles and various other wildlife, and sometimes hunters too.

  141. avatar bigbrowntrout says:

    Save bears,
    Sounds like something to look forward to. I still have the gun my father gave me, and hope to pass it on to my son or daughter. In fact, My father will be out here in MT for Thanksgiving, hope he’ll be up for an afternoon hunt or two, even though he can’t get around as well as he used to.

  142. avatar josh sutherland says:

    Mike you need to do a little research on RMEF, MDF, FNAWS and various other hunting groups that do an AMAZING amount of good not just for their respective species but for all wildlife that benefit from their habitat protections and improvements.

  143. avatar Mike says:

    Josh – I never said those groups weren’t helpful. It’s almost like you are having a conversation with an imaginary Mike.

    The question is, why do you and Ryan dislike green groups that push for wilderness?

  144. avatar Save bears says:

    Mike,

    Currently, I don’t have any thoughts, on lead vs. non lead bullets..

  145. avatar nabeki says:

    There’s definitely a yahoo element in the hunting and multiple use community cause believe me I’ve seen it first hand. Like hunting from pickups, drunk with handguns. Or creating illegal trials with snowmobiles and ATV’s. And not all hunters are good shots or know how to use a bow. Many just wound their prey and the poor animals take hours, days or weeks to die. I saw a deer once walking around with an arrow stuck in it’s side. Hunting can be a very cruel sport no matter how much conservation a person does in the name of it. Sorry but that’s the way I see it.

  146. avatar nabeki says:

    misspelled “trails”….

  147. avatar Elk275 says:

    Mike

    It is a complex subject. I was using Barnes TXS today for the first time and of course the elk were on the wrong side of the fence.

    Lead bullets have been used for 500 years and I doubt if any human has died from lead poisoning. More have died from stavation because hunter’s failed to make a kill. You would have made a dandy on the Lewis and Clark expedition — “Captain Lewis and Captain Clark I will not eat any animal shot with lead bullets for heath reasons”. You would have staved before winter quarters.

    Most hunting bullets have a copper jacket and a lead core, then there is a cup and core bullet, a bonded bullet, a monlitic solid (for elephants, hippo and fur bearers), and pure copper bullets. Copper bullets are having a problem with penciling through the body and not expanding this happens in under 35 caliber rilfes and they should be .005 of an inch from the lans for best accurancy.

    Your high quality bonded bullet is only losing approximately 2% of it original weight, some of that is lead and some copper. I have never found a bullet in the body cavity, most bullets if they do not exit are found between the hide and muscle on the far side of the animal. I think that it is a non issue. Lead shot and waterfowl that is a different story.

    I have to go to the bank for busiess.

  148. avatar Save bears says:

    And you like in the North Fork Nabeki?

  149. avatar Save bears says:

    “that was live”

    yikes!

    I can tell vacation is almost upon me!!!!

  150. avatar nabeki says:

    Save Bears…

    I live in the Flathead, so I get all around the valley.

  151. avatar Cris Waller says:

    Elk275

    “Lead bullets have been used for 500 years and I doubt if any human has died from lead poisoning.”

    Of course, death isn’t the problem from lead poisoning; neurological deficits are. And lead bullets, plus reloading activities, have definitely been shown to affect humans, especially children. A few sources:

    “Wild Meat Raises Lead Exposure”- http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wild-game-deer-venison-condors-meat-lead-ammunition-ban
    “That realization led [Dr.] Cornatzer and a radiologist last year to X-ray 100 packages of venison that had been donated by a sportsmen group to a food bank. About 60 percent of the packages contained lead-shot fragments, even though it’s common practice among hunters to remove meat around the wound.

    The discovery prompted North Dakota to warn pregnant women and children 6 and under not to eat venison killed with ammunition containing lead.”

    “Proceedings from Conference, “Ingestion of Lead from Spent Ammunition: Implications for Wildlife and Humans””- http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=81095219368
    “Lead from spent ammunition gets into people who eat game harvested with lead bullets or shot, with clinical effects among subsistence hunters. Effects among recreational hunters have not been adequately studied.”

    “Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure”
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0005330
    “Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, retention of ammunition residues in the tissues of hunter-killed animals, and systemic, cognitive, and behavioral disorders associated with human lead body burdens once considered safe.”

    This is just a small sampling of the literature that is out there.

  152. avatar Mike says:

    The reason why I asked about the lead versus not lead isuse is because Save Bears stated he was getting chemical free meat. You have a pretty good chance of eating led if you use lead bullets in your sustenance hunting. And that’s not even getting into the impact of lead bullets in general on poisoning wildlife.

    Chris made a good point that it’s not necessarily about death from lead, but rather neurological side effects which can greatly tarnish quality of life.

  153. avatar Elk275 says:

    Maybe, I and millions of American hunters have neurological deficits or maybe it is just pairre dog and coyote hunters. If that is your concern use Barnes Triple Shock bullets as I did today, tomorrow I may swith guns and use Nosler Accubonds. I certainly would not and have never worry about it. I have read where that North Dakota study was flawed and discredited.

    The problems with copper in smaller calipers is that copper has a lower specific gravity than lead which results in a larger mass or a longer bullet. As a reloader increases the grainage of the bullet it has to be seated deeper which results in less powder and less velosity. I would like to make a kill in the next couple of days and see how the all copper bullet works. They are accurate in my Kimber Montana 8400 with 46 grains of TAC and a 150 grain bullet.

    Secondly internal ballistics, Copper is harder than lead and as the bullet enters the lans and rifling they is not as much give and one has to be very careful of excessive pressures.

  154. avatar gline says:

    Josh : they are here, cant speak from where you are from. Perhaps you dont know the history of the sierra club…

  155. avatar gline says:

    Ryan, why do you think that green groups have nothing to do with road less conservation?”

    ya- many many lawsuit for road less areas over the years… god where are you?

  156. avatar Cobra says:

    Elk,
    I read that the Dakota studies were flawed also. From what I remember at the time the programs where hunters donated meat were stopped for a time and after other studies they found the donated meat was not contaminated so now they accept donations from hunters again.

  157. avatar Save bears says:

    Mike,

    After getting wounded in Iraq when I was in the service and having my hip replaced due to the injury, the AK round that hit me, did not maintain its integrity, blowing to pieces when it hit me, I think the little bit of lead exposure, I might get in the meat I harvest is of little concern..

  158. avatar Bogo says:

    “Its no different than trapping a mouse in your house.”

    “All mice I trap get relocated, not killed. We had a squirrel problem a couple years back and those were also live trapped.”

    Gee, do you relocate them to the front stoop with a half dozen felines monitoring the release site? 😆 I love my Ketch-All mouse traps.

  159. avatar josh sutherland says:

    Elk I use the TSX in my RUM, they performed great on the antelope I got last year in ID. Never tried it on anything bigger.

  160. avatar Mike says:

    Looks like illegal hunting is on the rise in Colorado, too:

    http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_13790790

    “Wildlife officers write about 2,150 tickets a year to hunters; 200 are for serious poaching crimes such as thrill-killing, hunting without licenses, poaching or wasteful destruction. “

  161. avatar Ryan says:

    Mike,

    Generally when I think of habitat protection and restoration. I think of hands on work, when it comes to Lawsuits.. The green groups win that category hands down.

    I would be willing to assume than the vast majority of the tickets listed above, are for minor violations that deal with paper work more than anything else.

  162. Ryan,

    The article in the Denver Post doesn’t break down the number of violations each category, but its point is the number of serious violations is up.

  163. avatar Cutthroat says:

    Ryan,

    In many cases, wouldn’t you agree it makes sense to prevent something from being destroyed using the courts, so you don’t have to put hands on to restore. Work smarter not harder?

    Here’s to everyone and anyones efforts at protection and restoration.

  164. avatar Layton says:

    Hey Mike,

    You fish — but you are against baiting —– does that mean you fish with Dupont spinners or what??

  165. avatar gline says:

    Is the illegal hunting (poaching) because of the increased hatred of Fed govt? ie, my rights, etc.

  166. avatar gline says:

    *increase in illegal hunting

  167. avatar Ryan says:

    Ralph,

    They only mention 200 serious violations, that being said, with the increase in immigrants as of late poaching has been on the rise.

  168. avatar Ryan says:

    Cutthroat,

    There are many groups that have been succesful with out going to the courts.

  169. avatar Mike says:

    ++They only mention 200 serious violations, that being said, with the increase in immigrants as of late poaching has been on the rise++

    You have to be kidding me. First you call me an “arrogant dick” in a post here and now you are blaming poaching on immigrants.

    Wow.

  170. avatar Elk275 says:

    Mike

    Becareful what you say. The Russian immigrants out of Fairbanks, Alaska are the worst. They kill year around. Just read some Alaska hunting forums.

  171. Ryan,

    You are probably right in that changing social conditions such as immigration affects the rate of poaching.

    Here are a couple other things that are happening. The awful economy may increase hunting for food in some isolated areas.

    There is a serious methamphetamine problem in many places. That coupled with unemployment and lack of opportunity to improve one’s life, probably spills over into rage. One way of expressing it is vandalism, arson, poaching, and other similar crimes.

  172. avatar gline says:

    We could surmise for hours on the reasons why poaching may be on the increase, or is just being reported more (?) but the way to resolve or lighten the issue is to keep educating and reporting to the public, like this blog. Thanks Ralph

  173. avatar Layton says:

    “Immigration”?? or ILLEGAL immigration??

    Just as an fyi — I was raised in a small town in Central Idaho, in the winter most of the men in town were out of work — no logging, sawmill closed, etc.

    MOST of the families affected by these closures had what was called a “woodshed” deer (called that because that was where it was hung). It was what the families lived on in the winter. ALL of the widows, single moms and “old folks” had one, they didn’t ask for it, it just appeared.

    Some people would call that poaching, others just called it “staying alive”.

  174. avatar gline says:

    That is a deer, not a griz bear.

  175. avatar gline says:

    Where were the food stamps? unemployment checks? There would have been a hunting season to provide meat.. poaching is a different story. I would hate to see species wiped out in the future for another depression…

  176. avatar Ryan says:

    Layton,

    Sorry I’ll work in spell check. Here locally the Eastern europeans, Asians, and mexicans are hell on the local fish and game populations. I have personally caught them with nets in salmon streams, poaching sturgeon, and killing deer out of season. (all reported) Unfortunately, what were seeing now days is alot of Douche Bag deer instead of woodshed deer.

  177. avatar Ryan says:

    Five Men Arrested for Poaching Wildlife
    On November 15, 2009, Washington County Sheriff’s Office deputies responded to a call for assistance from the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources. DWR had received a tip that men were poaching deer in an area north of Leeds. DWR officers had responded and detained several individuals.

    DWR Officers discovered six deer which were in various stages of processing for consumption. They also discovered one Cottontail rabbit, which is considered upland game. Harvesting is restricted except during designated hunting seasons and a small game license is required. Five people were arrested for unlawful taking or poaching wildlife. Deputies assisted the DWR officers with the arrest and transport of the five individuals, but the case was investigated by the officers from the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources.

    Enrique Caldera, Jesus Nunes, Ezequiel Parra-Gomez, Eligio Baldovinos-Ambris and Juan Baraza-Nunez were arrested and booked into the Washington County Purgatory Correctional Facility.

    GET A ROPE!

  178. avatar Cutthroat says:

    “They only mention 200 serious violations, that being said, with the increase in immigrants as of late poaching has been on the rise.”

    “GET A ROPE!”

    …that being said, with the increase of posts from RYAN on this blog, evidence of his intelligence and civility were on the decline.

  179. avatar Ryan says:

    Cutthroat,

    That was in the post that I cut and pasted from another board.

    http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/15058.html

    That being said poachers deserve no quarter as they steal from all of us. If you do a little research, you’ll find as a general rule that a disproportionately large amount of poaching, espicially commercial poaching operations, are done by immigrants from the old Soviet union countries, far east, and mexico.

    Civility is over rated, as for the intelligence comment I figured it out a while ago, if you don’t agree with someone, then they have to be stupid.. 🙂

  180. avatar Cordell says:

    Mike,
    You never did say what taking the picof the bears did to help habitat or the bears for that matter.

  181. avatar Cutthroat says:

    Ryan,

    My apologies. Didn’t realize the “GET A ROPE!” comment wasn’t yours. Exposing yourself a racist on a blog would not have been the most “intelligent” of actions, and thus my comments. Definitely didn’t “agree” with you on that regard. But since this was not the case I take back what I said. As well, didn’t realize that your comments were driven by so much hard data available with so “little research”. Is it available on-line anywhere else or just Monster Muleys?

  182. avatar gline says:

    funny then, how none of the poachers of this year have been mexican that we know of…? the paper didnt mention this particular piece of information for some reason.

  183. avatar gline says:

    Funny how the conversation is turning to “immigrants” poaching, like they are the only source? come on guys…lets not distract ourselves.

  184. I think folks should also focus rural economic problems and the social problems they create . . . in this case some of the poaching

  185. avatar Elk275 says:

    “GET A ROPE!”

    They are always getting a “rope” on Monster Muleys and 24 Campfire. I get bored reading some of that mentality.

  186. avatar gline says:

    I was shocked, I never go to those sites. I guess i should once in awhile for a different perspective on life.

  187. avatar Mike says:

    ++Sorry I’ll work in spell check. Here locally the Eastern europeans, Asians, and mexicans are hell on the local fish and game populations. I have personally caught them with nets in salmon streams, poaching sturgeon, and killing deer out of season. (all reported) Unfortunately, what were seeing now days is alot of Douche Bag deer instead of woodshed deer.++

    So you reported this but not an assault and kidnapping on a game ranger?

    White guys aren’t bad at all on local wildlife populations, are they Ryan? It’s just the immigrants….

    wow

  188. avatar Mike says:

    ++Funny how the conversation is turning to “immigrants” poaching, like they are the only source? come on guys…lets not distract ourselves.++

    I know. Absolutely ridiculous. Paranoia and racism seem to go hand in hand with thrill kill and poaching.

  189. avatar ProWolf in WY says:

    Ryan, you sound a little paranoid. A little xenophobic maybe?

  190. avatar catbestland says:

    Ryan,

    Do you have any idea how racist your comments come across? And if you do, do you understand how dangerous that kind of thinking is?

  191. avatar gline says:

    I definitely agree Mike.

  192. avatar Mike says:

    Here’s what I’ve learned about Ryan on this blog:

    1. Witnessed an assault and kidnapping on game ranger and did nothing
    2. Kills prairie dogs for fun, doesn’t use the meat
    3. Blames non-whites for most poaching
    4. Hates groups that sue to protect roadless areas

    Yikes.

  193. avatar Ryan says:

    “Do you have any idea how racist your comments come across? And if you do, do you understand how dangerous that kind of thinking is?”

    Cat,

    I call it like I see it.

    A quick search will show several major poaching busts on the Sac, Columbia, and Frasier done by eastern europeans for killing brood stock sturgeon for their caviar. There have been several black bear gall bladder poaching busts over the last few years, all for an asian aphrodisiac. I personally have called in numerous complaints on immigrant snaggers (people who intenionally hook fish other places than the mouth, not a racist term) and poachers here locally. A couple of the worst incidents that come to mind was in individual on the kenai who was caught with 900 salmon in thier posession, and a moving van an exguide friend of mine turned in with 9 elk in it. (not one tagged, cows and calfs mostly) Migrant workers in the Willamette valley have decimated the deer herds in numerous areas, when I worked on a large farming operation for a summer I turned in 10+ cases (more for economic reasons).

    “White guys aren’t bad at all on local wildlife populations, are they Ryan? It’s just the immigrants….”

    I do my best to turn in all poachers, have I ever said anywhere that white guys don’t poach?

    “Here’s what I’ve learned about Ryan on this blog:

    1. Witnessed an assault and kidnapping on game ranger and did nothing
    2. Kills prairie dogs for fun, doesn’t use the meat
    3. Blames non-whites for most poaching
    4. Hates groups that sue to protect roadless areas

    Yikes.”

    You can also add I don’t like the way many indian tribes treat our natural resources.
    I know your all hung up on number 1, which I find rather funny to be honest. You, as an outsider to the situation, think its a big deal where as most who where there think of it as beating up a bully in school and throwing him in his locker to teach him a lesson.

    Never said non whites do most of the poaching, I said

    “with the increase in immigrants as of late poaching has been on the rise.

    “disproportionately large amount of poaching, espicially commercial poaching operations, are done by immigrants from the old Soviet union countries, far east, and mexico.”

    The second comment was meant in regards to overall population make up.

    “funny then, how none of the poachers of this year have been mexican that we know of…? the paper didnt mention this particular piece of information for some reason.”

    Gline,

    Do a little more research, when it comes to commercial poaching operations.. The information is pretty clear.

  194. avatar Ryan says:

    Cuttthroat,

    I just posted that artcile as another recent poaching example. This site filters out too many Hyper links.

    If you want to do a little more research on it.
    google “Sacremento river sturgeon, Caviar”
    “Black bear gall bladder poaching”
    “Abalone poachers, california”

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‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."

~ Edward Abbey

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