M44 kills Utah Man's Dog. He sues Wildlife Services for $100,000

Too many dogs are lost to the M44 Cyanide devices the federal agency Wildlife Services puts out to kill coyotes, and too often they are non-target species. A Utah man is bound to teach them a lesson, and they really need to learn because the dog’s owner suffered some symptoms of cyanide poisoning too.

Story from Wild Again (Sinapu’s blog).

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  1. Alan Gregory Avatar

    Only $100K? Hell, I would think the emotional side of his loss would prompt a larger dollar amount. In any case, here is another woeful story that ought to lead to the yanking of at least some of the agency’s budget.

  2. mikarooni Avatar

    If a private citizen or corporation spread cyanide, even a minute amount of cyanide, into the air and across the landscape, they’d be up for a hazardous waste pollution charge in no time. The toxin in these devices doesn’t just disappear; it goes into the air; even the material that goes into the animal ends up in the environment in time and contributes to the overall, cumulative, environmental toxin load. It’s no wonder that the agency does everything in its corrupt power to avoid a full NEPA review and disclosure. Unfortunately, a significant fraction of the agency’s power comes from the fact that it has a habit of hiring and contracting with and passing tax money through the ne’er-do-well relations of powerful and politically connected people in these backward rural areas.

  3. TPageCO Avatar

    Questions for anyone: Are M-44 coyote getters legal in every state? Can private individuals purchase them without some sort of license? Are there restrictions on using them in places where certain animals (carrion feeders, for example) live? Does WS coordinate with land agencies and/or leaseholders to put these things out? What about putting up some sort of sign to at least let others know that they’re out there?

    A link to this kind of info would be helpful. I couldn’t get the article to work, so if the answers are in the piece, well…

  4. elkhunter Avatar

    Where we used to hunt coyotes they put these signs up warning you that they put some sort of poison out there. I am sure they are supposed to put signs up, I dont agree with them, you should not be able to poison coyotes, thats too bad his dog was killed though.

  5. Buffaloed Avatar

    Try this link:

    I’ve seen these signs in the past and have always been disturbed when I realize that they were in areas where they could kill just about anything and are in areas where there weren’t even cattle.

    I should point out that the vast majority of the 1.7 million animals killed, 1.2 million, were European starlings which severely impact native bird species. Starlings were introduced by a person that wanted every bird species mentioned in Shakespeare’s works brought to North America. He only brought 23 of them and every one of the starlings we have now are decendents of those 23, unless someone else was crazy enough to bring a few more. I consider them equivalent to the spotted knapweed of the skies, sorry.

  6. Alan Gregory Avatar

    The history of alien species introductions would take thousands of pages to fully document: gypsy moth, starling, house sparrow, various lizards and snakes, rock pigeon, hemlock wolly adelgid, cabbage white butterfly, European skipper (another butterfly), Russian olive, autumn olive, multiflora rose, various grasses like “Kentucky” bluegrass, dandelion, tamarisk or “salt cedar,” cheatgrass, garlic mustard, Norway maple, Norway spruce, Japanese honeysuckle, Japanese barberry, various fish, etc. And then there are deliberate introductions of native North American species into places Nature did not put them: Bullfrog, rainbow trout (in the East), brook trout (in the West), etc.

  7. Jay Avatar

    Why not poison coyotes elkhunter? You kill them for fun (sorry, for “contests”), cut their ears off for your reward–they’re only coyotes, right?

  8. elkhunter Avatar

    Ya, but if you poison them, then its kinda hard to hunt them. Plus it’s probably a slow way to die. Alot less painful with a gun.

  9. elkhunter Avatar

    And Jay if you poison them, they run off, and you cant cut thier ears off. Plus non-target animals are sometimes killed also.

  10. Jay Avatar

    I’m sure if coyotes could talk they’d prefer either option be taken off the table. Killing for the sake of killing, shot or poisoned, doesn’t really float my boat. I’m not going to skid off the road to avoid hitting a squirrel or coyote, but I’m not going to go out of my way to kill it because I find that “fun”. Killing shouldn’t be fun to anybody, which is where I’m really stuck trying to figure out that mentality.

  11. Jon Way Avatar

    I agree with you Jay. It is sad that people see coyotes as a nuisance to be killed in order to get a bounty (or why ever would you would cut their ear off). Yes, I live near coyotes and love them and get angry when people like elkhunter think they have a right “to hunt them hard” with his buddies. Like Jay, I am not anti-hunting like elkhunter probably would lump me, but to just kill them b.c they are coyotes is a pathetic reason, at least in my opinion.
    Unfortunately, We will know probably get the post about how much they destroy wildlife and that needs to be done. Maybe science will one day catch up with opinion.

  12. JEFF E Avatar
    JEFF E

    I believe a person needs a mentality to have a mentality.

  13. elkhunter Avatar

    Jon Way, already way ahead of you, killing coyotes does help with prey populations, if you want i can email you the studies. K thanks

  14. Jon Way Avatar

    Let’s see them Elkhunter. I got my PhD studying coyotes and there is not much peer-reviewed data showing that coyotes have detrimental effects on prey populations. Just about all the prey-predator studies show way overabundant prey without predators or coyotes balancing prey but certainly not greatly depressing their #s. So please enlighten me with the studies – I hope they are scientific ones so I can learn something new.

  15. JEFF E Avatar
    JEFF E

    This should be interesting. Please include the rest of us Mr. Way.

  16. skyrim Avatar

    I just spent the better part of the day watching a coyote dart in and out on a carcass that the Druids had brought down last evening(?) All with the Druids bedded down nearby and a Grizzly sitting at the dinner table. I tell you that coyote was determined and was not deterred by the big bruin or the wolves that tried several times to run him off. It took him awhile but he got fed. Perhaps feeding young ones nearby?
    To assume that these canids have no useful purpose in an a complete ecosystem, is a gross error in reasoning.

  17. elkhunter Avatar

    This study provided insight into the mechanisms controlling the white-tailed deer population of the Wichita Mountains. The 90% fawn mortality was due primarily to predation by coyotes, which resulted in low recruitment of fawns into the adult population. There was no evidence that disease substantially influenced the predator-prey relationship
    The link to this study is http://digital.library.okstate.edu/oas/oas_htm_files/v61/p23_27nf.html#results
    if you google coyote fawn predation you will get about a zillion responses, read through some and let me know. Thanks. A Phd in coyotes?? No shit, did not know they had one of those? Whats it called, Coyoteologist? That was just one source that I found if you want I can get more. Thanks

  18. elkhunter Avatar

    And almost every state had a study they did, especially AZ. You can read them all if you want.

  19. elkhunter Avatar

    This is a study you wolf lovers will like, it was posted once on this blog. States wolves kill coyotes, which in turn lowers coyote numbers, which evidently, from this study, to increase survival of proghorn fawns. Thanks

  20. elkhunter Avatar

    Coyotes were introduced in Florida for pursuit by hunting dogs as early as the 1920s. Regardless of these introductions and escapes, the coyote’s natural range expansion into Florida was inevitable. As coyote numbers increase, their influence on Florida’s indigenous prey species, competing predators, livestock and vegetables will become a concern. Coyote impact on native wildlife has already been seen in northern Florida where predation on endangered sea turtle eggs is a considerable problem. Much is still unknown, including whether the coyote will have negative effects on recovery of the Florida panther– or if it will fill the panther’s niche in areas where habitat is not suitable for this endangered species.
    http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/UW127 Here is another one. Thanks

  21. elkhunter Avatar

    Jon Way, I dont know what school you went to, but even if you google coyote impacts, you will get thousands of articles, ranging from science institutions, game angencies, even the sierra club had one claiming that coyote predation was the main factor in some rare wren bird. So I dont know what to tell you if you were taught that coyotes dont have negative effects on some prey animals.

  22. Joe S. Avatar

    John Way/Coyote Dr………
    Spend some time in the Owyhees with your peers……..study the antelope decline and post your findings……not uncommon to see packs of up to 10 coyotes taking down full grown antelope does….does with fawns are few and far between….If coyotes aren’t negatively affecting the population…please enlighten me as to what is…..killer sage hen>>>>?

    the law gives elkhunter and his buddies the right to “hunt them hard”….just because you dont understand it or agree with it….doesn’t make it any less ethical……

  23. Jay Avatar

    I’m sure you see that all that time…it’s well known that coyotes can outrun the fastest land animal in N. America. Take some video next time, as that’s probably never been witnessed by anybody but yourself. Also, how about providing some data on the supposed antelope decline…do you do helicopter or fixes wing surveys, and are they annual, or do you do multi-year intervals? What’s your proprotion of marked individuals that you’ve gone in and done a thorough necropsy after locating the animal’s collar on mortality mode and documented coyote predation? What are your aerial survey estimates of fawns:100 does? How about pregnancy rates?

    The law used to allow slavery, so was it ethical for folks at the time to keep some slaves around to wash their tighty-whiteys and pick their cotton?

  24. Layton Avatar

    Gee whiz —- Kinda unlike me to get involved in a good fight about eliminating some predators —- but — since the subject of this thread was the killing of a dog by one of the M44 “getters” placed by the feds — AND — some of the most ardent “wolves forever” folks on here think it was a terrible thing —-

    Will someone please tell me what the difference is between killing a dog – and the agonizing death that it suffers – with a deliberately placed lethal device (placed by the feds) —- and the agonizing death suffered by MANY hounds and other domestic dogs that have been killed by deliberately placed, lethal devices called wolves (ALSO placed by the feds)???

    The biggest difference to me seems to be that M44s don’t breed!!


  25. Jay Avatar

    How ’bout wolves were out there long before hunting hounds and cat/bear hunters. That’s an interesting definition of the word “device”…very creative!

  26. elkhunter Avatar

    Really Jay, I thiught domestic dogs have been around for thousands of years?

  27. Layton Avatar

    Soooooo, I guess it’s OK for them to kill the hunters too??

    That is if your definition holds true.

    Gosh Jay, when DID men start hunting cats and bears?? That is — how long after the wolves got here??

    Was T-rex before or after the wolf?? I guess we need some of them too.

    Give me a break!! This “they were here first” is an OOOOLLLDDDD argument that never was any good — in case you haven’t thought of it yet, there’s a new head predator in town – or would you just rather be wolf bait??

    By the way, a couple of definitions of “device”

    a plan or scheme for effecting a purpose.
    a crafty scheme; trick.

    I think either one of those would fit the current situation with Canis Lupis whatever.


  28. Jay Avatar

    Don’t be an idiot…dinosaurs and wolves are a bit different, don’t you think? Gosh Layton, did the livestock industry kill off T-rex with strychnine and 1080? Gosh Layton, were the indians leading plotts and walkers with tracking collars on leashes through the woods with rifles? And how many bear/lion hunters have been attacked by wolves? Are you seriously going to tell me that I should worry about a wolf attacking me while out in the woods? If you’re afraid of that, you’re a sissy that needs to stay home. And one more thing…it’s not that they were here first, it’s that wolves, and to a lesser extent lions, were exterminated by an industry for the benefit of that industry. Is that a good enough break for you?

  29. Layton Avatar


    If you had any idea who/what I am you’d know what a moron you sound like.

    It seems that you have a difficult time keeping your arguments straight — first it’s “How ’bout wolves were out there long before hunting hounds and cat/bear hunters” This (I guess) was used as justification for the wolves to kill dogs.

    Then it becomes ” it’s not that they were here first” — which is it Jay?? Are you confused??

    No, I’m not afraid of the wolves in the woods, what REALLY frightens me is the monumental stupidity exhibited by folks like you. They advance arguments of the “they were here first” kind — but then want to stop where THEIR FAVORITE CRITTER comes in on the chain. I’m afraid that someone will actually listen to them!!


  30. dcookie Avatar

    Can’t you feel the love?

  31. Steve C. Avatar
    Steve C.

    Elkhunter, I live on the east coast in a state with a healthy uncontrolled coyote population. Guess what, deer are everywhere! They are even encroaching into very urban areas. How does this square with your coyotes limiting deer populations statement?

    Layton, when you send your dog out into the wilderness to chase down and tree a cat or bear you need to accept that something bad could happen to it. It could be killed by a number of things including wolves. You do not assume the same risk when walking down a trail and having poison shot into your dog’s mouth. I have seen the effects of poison first hand and if i had to choose personally, I would rather be killed quickly by wild animals than die a painful death from poisoning.

  32. Jon Way Avatar

    thanks for the sources. One thing that seems to be consistent on many of these posts is that folks without advanced degrees want to belittle folks with one. My PhD involved combining science and education using coyotes as a model. I currently have 14 scientific articles related to my study. In my opinion, it is only in a current political atmosphere where folks like you and Layton can use pseudo-science and get away with it, b.c our biggest culprit of using that is the Bush Administration.
    Your white-tailed deer study in OKla. was just about the only study to show that coyotes had a strong effect on deer recruitment, but the study shows nothing about the effects that coyotes had on the presumed large deer herd. My case in point is with the conclusion of the article, “Predation is consistent with the policy of “natural” regulation of deer on the Wichita Mountains National Wildlife Refuge where deer hunting is not permitted.” The NWR wants a heavy handed effect of coyotes on a non-human hunted herd. We never know how many deer were there (ie, adults) but it seems like coyotes were not affecting overall herd numbers at all.
    The Florida study says nothing about the effects that coyotes are having on panthers – it just talks about the potential that coyotes might have on panthers, which would be natural competition for them since red wolves used to compete with them in the SE.
    You are correct with pronghorns: in areas where there are multi-prey and predator species, coyotes do seem to have an effect on pronghorn #s. However, that does not mean that killing coyotes will solve the problem. It is well known that they are territorial and keep other coyotes out of territories. By killing them, you just promote more coyote dispersal into the area. There is evidence that with moderate to low mortality rates in areas, coyotes can actually (due to reproduction and dispersal) replace their #s to the point where they get more numerous – sometimes in a short period of time (1 year).
    Basically, Jay (I think) and I are arguing that the laws need to change to continue to give you and others the right to hunt, but to not allow folks to slaughter large #s of animals like coyotes, when it does not do much ecologically and affects animal welfare.
    For your interest, here are other studies which show the very important effect of having coyotes around and increasing biodiversity:
    Berger, K. M. 2006. Carnivore-Livestock conflicts: effects of subsidized predator control and economic correlates on the sheep industry. Conservation Biology 20(3): 751-761.
    (this imporant paper shows that there are many other factors affect sheep #s than coyote predation – mainly market prices)
    Mezguida, E. T., S. J. Slater, and C. W. Benkman. 2006. Sage-grouse and indirect interactions: potential implications of coyote control on sage-grouse populations. The Condor 108:747-759.
    Sovada, M. A., A. B. Sargeant, and J. W. Grier. 1995. Differential effects of coyotes and red foxes on duck nest success. Journal of Wildlife Management 59:1-9.
    Henke, S.E., and F. C. Bryant. 1999. Effects of coyote removal on the faunal community in western Texas. Journal of Wildlife Managemnt 63:1066-1081.
    Crooks, K. R., and M. E. Soule. 1999. Mesopredator release and avifaunal extinctions in a fragmented system. Nature. 400:563-566.

    These studies show the undeniable positive effects of coyotes and basically show the imporance of complex food webs. While coyotes obviously do kill things like deer fawns, domestic cats, and other small-medium prey (mostly), there presence keeps smaller (meso) predators in lower abundance which positively affects songbird, cat, duck, and grouse numbers, among other things. So next time while duck hunting, you might want to “thank” (of course I am joking) the coyotes that you see, and not “pop” them.
    I think coyotes should have bag limits just like other large game and these studies back me on that.
    And by the way, next time you post, please do not go after my (or others’) credentials – it makes folks look ignorant. You didn’t see me go after your creds, whatever they may be.

  33. matt bullard Avatar
    matt bullard

    “the law gives elkhunter and his buddies the right to “hunt them hard”….just because you dont understand it or agree with it….doesn’t make it any less ethical……”

    No! Just because it is law does not make it ethical. And just because it is “the law” does not make it a right. It is still a priviledge, at least in Idaho.

  34. Robert Hoskins Avatar
    Robert Hoskins

    For Jon Way

    Your brief account of the complex and fascinating research into predator prey dynamics is absolutely on target.

    However, one thing I have learned from trying to educate the public, especially hunters (and I have been a hunter for forty years) about predators over the last fifteen years is that the public is not educatable. Scientific illiteracy is for far too many a badge of honor. Hunters for example have no understanding of the basics of game management, much less of basic biology or ecology. They fervently believe that game management is the equivalent of livestock management.

    When you combine this public ignorance with the wilfull mendacity of various government wildlife management agencies, such as the Wyoming Game & Fish Department’s demonstrably false propaganda about wolves and elk in northwest Wyoming, you end up with the equivalent of mob rule–predator control.

    That’s why I seldom comment on these blogs any more; it’s a waste of time to try and teach these people anything.

    I don’t know what the answer is to public ignorance, whether the topic is predators, climate change, or the devastations of energy development. It does seem that we’re entering another “dark ages” where science is little more than the devil’s work. The irony is, of course, that the devil loves ignorance.

    Good luck in your scientific endeavors.

    Best wishes,
    Robert Hoskins

  35. JEFF E Avatar
    JEFF E

    It is very frustrating to cite scientific evidence or methodology and then be told that you are making it up, or inventing it, or to just have such information simply not accepted. But analogously “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”

  36. Jon Way Avatar

    thanks for your post. I do agree that it is quite frustrating to say the least esp. here in Mass. where hunters deliberately (supposedly at least) target my collared coyotes. The lack of public knowledge and respect for people that have done actual research (and more importantly published) is pretty amazing.

  37. Layton Avatar

    Steve C.,

    I would agree with your first statement concerning hunting dogs — there is some risk, I DO NOT agree with the fact that people are not allowed to defend those dogs from the wolves tho’ —- however, what about the “domestic” dogs that are killed by wolves??

    There are many stories available with a little searching that tell of folk just “walking down a trail” with their dogs and having those dogs attacked, killed, harassed, whatever by wolves. Did they somehow “accept that something bad could happen to it”? What’s the difference between the wolf and the M44 under those circumstances?

    I know that we’re not going to agree on this, but I really do see a lot of similarities.


  38. JEFF E Avatar
    JEFF E

    See Jay, Layton just explained it all and I believe elkhunter and Joe S feel the same way in that if we just knew who/what they are that we would all experience a profound moment of epiphanic revelation and would then be able to gather around and receive proper instruction on all things to do with wildlife.

  39. Jay Avatar


    I’d sure like you to highlight my points that make me sound like a moron? My point was that wolves were here a short 60-70 years ago, killed off with poison and bullets, and you counter that with your analogy of dinosaurs from how many million years ago? And that doesn’t sound moronic? Wow. Seems to me you’re confused, as you don’t get the concept that people eliminated wolves. I don’t recall too many ranchers shooting dinosaurs off of cattle kills, do you?

    And what’s with the “if you knew who I was” threat, anyway? Am I supposed to be intimidated? I don’t care who you are–you throw out some nonsense argument about dinosaurs and I’ll call you on it. You made the “they were here first” reference, not me–all I said is there were wolves out there before the hound hunters were out there pursuing lions/bears. Maybe before talking about monumental stupidity, you should go back and re-read your own words dinosaur man.

  40. Jay Avatar

    And sure, that’s a good idea, by the way…let’s bring back some dinosaurs. I think there’s some Canadian T-rex’s left we can bring down to replace the ones killed off by market hunters.

  41. Jay Avatar


    Do you have web site with .pdf’s of your articles linked? I’d be interested in reading what you’ve put out.

  42. Jon Way Avatar

    Hi Jay,
    you could do a scholar google search for them and likely find them somewhere. I do not know how to do attachments on blogs but if you email the webmaster and he emails me your email, I will send you a few of those that I do have on PDF. But give scholar.google.com a shot.
    best, jon

  43. Joe S. Avatar

    Jay….just letting you know what i have witnessed regarding yotemutts in my little part of the world…….antelope does are easy prey for coyotes when they are fawning…they drag out the half born fawn, hamstring the doe…then eat them both…usually takes about 30 minutes…and yes i may have some video footage for ya…as for aerial surveys…who has time for that…

    P.S. I documented 78 coyotes last year…all dead/none wearing collars….most had traces of .222 hollow point fragments in their lungs……

  44. stevec Avatar

    Layton, if you are just walking down trail (not hunting with dogs or using dogs to protect livestock) you can keep your dog 100% safe by keeping it on a leash. Doesnt really take a rocket scientist to figure that out. I dont think a wolf, couger, griz or coyote has ever killed a dog that was leashed and attached to a human. I dont know how many people around my way blame coyotes for killing dogs/cats when they could have been run over by cars etc. because they were either let outside or allowed to run off leash. Little things like this could make it easy to live with wildlife but people are too lazy/stubborn to use common sense and would rather kill predators rather than doing simple things to prevent negative interractions.

  45. Layton Avatar


    Thanks, I think you proved my point much better than I could have.

    “My point was that wolves were here a short 60-70 years ago, killed off with poison and bullets, and you counter that with your analogy of dinosaurs from how many million years ago?”

    All you said was that the wolves were here first, if you follow that analogy it would seem to me that 60-70 years ago is CERTAINLY trumped by a few million. If we’re gonna bring back what was here first — let’s “get er’ done”.

    “And what’s with the “if you knew who I was” threat, anyway? Am I supposed to be intimidated?”

    Threat? Sorry there partner, again you show that you don’t know anything about me — if I’m going to make a threat, you’ll have no questions about it.

    “You made the “they were here first” reference, not me–all I said is there were wolves out there before the hound hunters were out there pursuing lions/bears.”

    Go back to the first quote — try to read it for comprehension — see where it says “How ’bout wolves were out there long before hunting hounds and cat/bear hunters.” — now look r e a l l y close — see where it says
    “Jay Says:
    April 24th, 2007 at 5:37 pm “??

    In case you forgot, that’s the name you post under — with a time stamp — now, do you want to review this sophomoric –” you said it first ” crap??

    Just one more small point — then you can have the p!ssing match all to yourself — 1080 wasn’t even invented when most of the wolves were killed — look it up.


  46. Jay Avatar

    Do you have a point T-rex? You’re right, I said
    “wolves were out there long before hunting hounds and cat/bear hunters.” Can you dispute that? Were there cavemen running kennel-bred plots and walkers? I assume you have documented proof, since you imply that you’re a person of great knowledge? Is that such a difficult point for you to understand?

    Work on your reading comprehension, T-rex.

    I’ll give you the 1080 point…sorry, I didn’t do a comprehensive search on the history of poisons. I’ll retract that from my statement…you just shot down my entire point. As far as not knowing anything about you, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Should I be able to telepathically download your resume or something?

  47. Joe S. Avatar

    Jay your rhetoric is becoming more infantile by the minute…..quit while your behind….

  48. Jay Avatar

    Thanks for your input Joe, I really value your tremendous insight. Do you even know what rhetoric is?

  49. Austin Avatar

    Nice job Jay, I learned a while ago that arguing with the anti-wolf folks is waste of time. If they want to compare wolves with dinosaurs and poisons let them. I think anyone with any sense would know how ridiculous that is.

    Personally find it unfortunate that a dog was killed by the poison; I also find it unfortunate when a wolf kills someone’s pet. If you have either around you will have other animals being killed. However, at least in my opinion I would rather have wolves in the woods than poison. Then again I am a bit biased.

  50. JEFF E Avatar
    JEFF E

    If you want to try to read Laytons mind I would suggest you bring a flashlight. You don’t want to step in a pile. But my guess is you have tasks that would be much more informative, such as reading the Sunday comics.

  51. elkhunter Avatar

    Steve C, first you are trying to compare whitetails that adapt very well with suburban areas, its obvious since there are literally millions of them, whereas mule deer are very different. Not milllions of them in every state. So your statement might also be true, plus you dont have cougars which kill alot of deer, so your trying to compare apples and oranges. Thanks.
    Jon Way,
    You are on the east coast also, coyotes out there and coyotes here are a little different I would imagine. My whole point was I like to hunt coyotes. Everone freaked out calling me all sorts of things. I hunt coyotes for lots of reasons. If there valid or not I dont really care. I will hunt them regardless. Yes there are studies that show that coyotes effect fawn recruitment, and yes there are studies that show they dont. Thats why this topic has been controversial for decades. We have our opinons, you have yours. I respect that, and at the same time we feel the same way you do, you think we are uneducated and need to be taught, we feel the same way about you. But regardless like you said, if me shooting coyotes does not solve anything, then what does it really matter if we kill a couple hundred coyotes a year in southern utah. they just come back like you said. Either way, I like hunting them, and I have a right to do so, so unless something in the law changes I will continue doing it.

  52. JEFF E Avatar
    JEFF E

    I think you may want to inquire of Joe S just what he means by the last sentence of his comment at 12:42 pm.

    i believe he was referencing Jay’s comment on April 24 at 4:04 pm… — however, *you are right*, i’d prefer not to be put in the situation of organizing dialogue so as to avoid misunderstandings associated with ideas of that nature –


  53. elkhunter Avatar

    BE, why are you erasing my comments?

    my apologies – for some reason the comments got captured in moderation, i’ll do what i can to check frequently


  54. elkhunter Avatar

    NM Be, It is showing now! 🙂

  55. red Avatar

    Heavily hunting a predator species radically changes the age composition of the population. Frankly, having 100 young, inexperienced coyotes is different from having a population of 100 with a normal age structure, including the proper portion of mature adults.

    Thus, its not just about numbers, but also quality of those numbers.

  56. Joe S. Avatar

    JEFF E Says:
    April 25th, 2007 at 7:47 pm e
    I think you may want to inquire of Joe S just what he means by the last sentence of his comment at 12:42 pm.

    Jeff try reading for comprehension instead of “tattling to the teacher”
    im sure she has better things to do than conduct investigations because you cant follow a 40 post thread…

    he – and consideration is hardly a characteristic worthy of mockery – you’re probably lucky i don’t have a ruler.


  57. JEFF E Avatar
    JEFF E

    Joe S
    In Jays post, his example was that ethics and what is the law and/or common practice are not necessarily the same thing.
    Your statement was a comparison/contrast statement of the value of human to animal. Most of us learned the difference in English 101. In addition, as Jay pointed out, you apparently do not even know the definition of a simple word; rhetoric, so I find it highly unlikely that you have an even rudimentary grasp of the meaning of comprehension, much less recommending that some one else engage in that which you are organically incapable of.
    Be assured that any such comparison that you make similar to your recent one of slaves/coyotes will be challenged by myself each and every time for the disgusting display that it is and if I decide to bring it to any other individuals attention I shall. Understand.

    the comment in question could have been (mis?)construed in a way inconsistent with the level of dialogue I hope to maintain while Ralph is gone. It’s not my site, that being the case I’d rather be safe. thanks to Jeff for the consideration.


  58. Jay Avatar

    Jeff, if you had any idea who Joe was you’d realize what a moron you sound like…or at least that’s how it was explained to me 🙂

  59. Joe S. Avatar

    The comment WAS miscontsrued by some…..for that reason you did the right thing by pulling it Be…thank you……

    the point i was making was how ridiculous it is to compare slavery ethics to hunting ethics……

    Feel free to pull this comment too…..if Jeff gets scared again……= ^)

  60. Jay Avatar

    Ethics are ethics Joe, it doesn’t matter what arena they take place in. The point was there was a time people felt slavery was perfectly acceptable. Most definitely it is not. The point was brought up that killing for fun (coyotes) is legal, therefore it’s perfectly acceptable. I’m sure back in the day slaveowners felt the exact same way. Conversely, I’m sure you’re vehemently opposed to folks going out and shooting elk and deer just so they can cut off the head and take it for a trophy. Wouldn’t you feel the same way if somehow the law was changed to allow that? In most folks eyes, while legal, that would be ethically and morally wrong. What if I decided that killing deer and elk is fun, just for the thrill? Would you think that’s acceptable? I doubt it. That’s how I feel about shooting something just because it’s fun to go out and kill it. The very root basis of hunting is to go out and get something that you need to survive, not to entertain yourself by watching something flop around on the ground in death throes.

  61. elkhunter Avatar

    Did you ever go rabbit hunting as a kid? Out here in the West I dont think there are very many young kids who have not. You may not feel that hunting coyotes is ethical, I feel it is. It sure is not easy, I dont know if you think we just drive out, drink some beer, shoot some road signs, and then pull over and shoot 5 innocent coyotes standing on the side of the road. Its called hunting for a reason. We hunted for 2 days straight in a contest and only killed 2 dogs. We drove over 1500 miles. The hunting population feels it does benefit prey population. You feel that killing them does not help. There are studies that support both sides. This debate has been going on for decades, and people have been hunting coyotes for decades, they are not going anywhere, they are IMPOSSIBLE to exterminate likes wolves. People have already tried. I agree that nature needs coyotes. I dont want them to be extinct, and they never will be. I know you feel very strongly about this issue, and so do I, but I honestly dont think there is anything wrong with hunting coyotes.

  62. Jay Avatar


    I’ve said specifically that I don’t have a problem taking coyotes if you’d at least use them for something…peel the pelt off and make some use of it. If there’s an area that’s struggling (prey-wise), than sure, get a concentrated effort and reduce them to levels that will actually help. There needs to be a reason, other than they’re fun to shoot. That’s all I’m saying.

    1500 miles for two coyotes? $3.00/gallon makes those pretty expensive coyotes…

  63. elkhunter Avatar

    I know thats what we thought!!! We were in NV out in the middle of nowhere, alot of that time was spent lost of course! But you do have a point, I should find someone that would want the pelts and put them to some use.

  64. JEFF E Avatar
    JEFF E

    joe s (be)
    Okay, I ((miss) construed) and am now scared. Lets try a litmus test. Print out the two posts in question, the one that Jay used as an ethics example, and the one that you, joe, posted before be edited it. Go anywhere in the United States, or world, but an area where a significant % of the population has an ancestry, or has/is been, directly impacted by slavery, (yes it still happens), I would say at least 30-50% in order to get an accurate feedback, and pass out, randomly, both print outs, making clear that, you joe, authored the reply to Jay. I challenge you to do that joe, Mano y Mano based on everything it is to be a MAN.

  65. Joe S. Avatar

    I have a slightly better idea…lighten up….try not to take life so seriously…….realize SOMETIMES sarcasm is added to my posts to break up the monotony…..often they are followed by LOL or a smiley face for you serious types……

    This little test you proposed sounds about as NON mano y mano as anything ive ever heard in my life……

    How bout we just set up an octagon…put on some 8 oz gloves and sell some tickets….= ^)

  66. Jay Avatar

    I’ll buy that on pay-per-view…just so long as it lasts longer than half a round. Throw in Diego Sanchez getting pounded on by Matt Hughes and my Saturday eve. is set.

  67. Kim Avatar

    anyone who is into killing coyotes should read this book, http://www.hoperyden.com/work5.htm

    I have a coydog, which is the best dog anyone could wish for, except she’s terrified of humans. And who could blame her. Coyotes are scavengers. They don’t affect hunting. Hunters kill them and use this as an excuse to kill them.

    I know a coyote would kill and eat my dog if they had a chance, but I still would not kill one where they live. If I don’t want my pets killed by coyotes, I should keep track of them and be responsible for them. I should not allow them to run amuck in the wilderness and allow them to chase and kill wildlife. This is a responsible pet owners duty.


Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University. He was a Western Watersheds Project Board Member off and on for many years, and was also its President for several years. For a long time he produced Ralph Maughan’s Wolf Report. He was a founder of the Greater Yellowstone Coalition. He and Jackie Johnson Maughan wrote three editions of “Hiking Idaho.” He also wrote “Beyond the Tetons” and “Backpacking Wyoming’s Teton and Washakie Wilderness.” He created and is the administrator of The Wildlife News.

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Ralph Maughan