Here is our new open comments thread (starting on Sept. 17, 2012) on wildlife news topics you think are interesting. You can access the previous “Interesting Wildlife News” here.

Please post new stories and make comments about wildlife topics in the comments section below.

Elk on Yellowstone Park’s northern range. Copyright Ralph Maughan

About The Author

Ralph Maughan

Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University with specialties in natural resource politics, public opinion, interest groups, political parties, voting and elections. Aside from academic publications, he is author or co-author of three hiking/backpacking guides, and he is past President of the Western Watersheds Project.

709 Responses to Have you come across any interesting wildlife news? September 17, 2012

  1. avatar HAL 9000 says:

    Don’t know if anybody has posted this one yet — but the decline in moose populations might turn out to be a complex convergence of factors.

    Of course, the usual over-simplfication is that they’ve been “decimated” by wolves.

    Anyway, here’s the article:

    • avatar CodyCoyote says:

      This article reporting the moose research and matrices of causes for declining populations all across the girdle of the North American continent needs to go to the top of the Grey Wolf forum as well.

      Here in northwest Wyoming, the local hunting cabal—and especially commercial outfitters— have been very vocal and political about blaming wolves and wolves only for the decline in moose, when truth be told the moose were dropping off years before the first wolf was uncaged in Yellowstone. All the outfitters and guides could see looking thru the wrong end of their binoculars was the loss of moose licenses and clients to exploit.

      Funny how the alleged ” professionals” who spend the most man-hours in the field in any given year and claim to know and understand ungulates and their behavior are the last to see the cause and effect. Maybe they can’t see the moose for the antlers, or the habitat for the (missing) trees…

      They somehow missed the after effects of the Yellowstone Fires of ’88 , too, and the cascade of wildfires elsewhere in the northern Rockies, not least of which in the Bitterroot country.

      • avatar Immer Treue says:

        Brainworm in MN moose.

        Interesting article. States that the cause relationship cycle between deer and moose is still not clearly understood, but some studies do show that deer density of 13 per square mile is often associated with moose decline. Is it brainworm? Does clear cutting affect moose habitat(actually increases deer habitat)? Do moose have trouble competing with deer? Climate change? Or does increase in deer population bring in more wolves, thus more moose taken by wolves.

        Argument against the latter might be the picture presented in article, and recent moose killed in Ely area staggering around with brain worm. Quoting one of my AVID hunting friends,”if the wolves are all over the place as some say, how come they can’t find these moose Infected with brainworm?”

      • avatar Salle says:

        To date: 810,975 acres of habitat loss as of 8:30am active and still burning in the state of Idaho alone!

        • avatar Carl says:

          Salle, fires are a natural process that do more benefit to habitat than harm. You are spouting the old Smokey Bear myth.

          • avatar CodyCoyote says:

            The ideal situation for fire as an ecological restorative is somewhere between ” Suppress All Fires ” ( Bad idea as the 20th century showed us ) and huge swaths of devastation like Idaho is experiencing this year.
            My own Shoshone National Forest needs to burn . But it should be more like 5 Percent every 10 Years ( 50 percent in 50 years) , not monster firestorms consuming entire watersheds. Once we give the region a good thorough burn to baseline pre-1900 , the fire cycle could be better managed, maybe 0.3 percent per year / 3 percent a decade depending on the zone.
            It takes about 125 years to regrow the forest here in NW Wyoming where annual precipitation is low . Of course the escalation of climate change may make all this moot.
            Too many of this summer’s fires were man-caused for the wrong reasons.

          • avatar Salle says:


            I understand that point. The point I am making here is a carryover from a point I was making from yesterday in response to something Mr IDF$G made to the questions many of us asked about whether any adjustments to hunting parameters would be made given that the immediate habitat loss due to the current fires would be made. I just brought the point of how much has already been affected this summer, to date. I am not playing chicken little here, just a reminder since the thread was updated to alleviate the burden of slow loading due to volume of entries. I put it in bold so the person to whom the questions were asked could find it easily since he’s such a busy dude.

            And we’re waiting for a response, might take a couple days since he has to get his answers/responses approved being a public servant and all that.

            I also realize that there is an opportunity for a “greenup” next year, given there is appropriate precipitation and soil for those natural processes to take place… if conditions allow. But the forests will take longer to regenerate thus making habitat range much broader for some time as Cody pointed out.

            • avatar Mark Gamblin (IDFG) says:

              Salle, Louise, jon….

              Why not pre-emptive action(s) to adjust hunting seasons, quotas, other adjustments, due to habitat loss from the on-going Idaho fires?

              I’m assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that you mean: “why not reduce quotas, reduce hunting opportunities for wolves and/or wolf prey species (elk, deer, moose) – due to less available habitat to support pre-fire numbers of wolves and prey?”

              IF I understand your question correctly, recognize that reducing hunting opportunity and therefor hunting harvest/kill/take of wolves or prey species to conserve or protect those animals surviving the fire would leave them to rely on ….. WHAT HABITAT….. in the intervening years before the burned habitat regains productive potential to again support the wolf and prey populations occupying the burned habitat? Are you suggesting that quotas and/or hunting seasons be increased to REDUCE numbers of wolves and prey species to accomodate a temporary net reduction in available habitat?

            • avatar jon says:

              Mark, there are 3000 cougars in Idaho and 20,000 black bears and around 500-1000 wolves in Idaho. Why are hunters allowed to buy 5 wolf hunting tags each year and trappers can buy 5 wolf trapping tags each year on a wolf population that is far lower than the cougar and black bear population? Hunters can’t buy 5 tags this year and next year for bear or cougar, but they can for wolves even though there are far fewer wolves in Idaho than bears and cougars. You are giving a lot of wolves a death sentence just because they eat elk.

  2. avatar grdnrmt says:

    Black Bear attack in “The Bob” determined to be predatory…

    • avatar Salle says:

      Not only was there little for them to eat most of the summer,it’s getting on denning time. I expect there will be lots of that kind of activity this fall.

      • avatar Rancher Bob says:

        Montana is a big state, where I live bears had lots of berries and no bear problems, local bear biologist thinks they are high eating moths. So have you been in “The Bob” this year?

        • avatar Salle says:

          Would have loved to travel some this summer but due to monetary circumstances beyond my control, I can’t afford to leave the neighborhood.

    • avatar HAL 9000 says:

      It’s my understanding that black bear attacks, although more rare than grizzly attacks, are actually more dangerous.

      When black bears attack, it’s usually for just one reason. To try eating you.

      • avatar grdnrmt says:

        Over the years I have read several accounts of predatory black bear attacks, mostly in eastern Canada…not so much for grizzlies. As a side note, I enjoyed the movie “The Edge,” even knowing that it was an inaccurate portrayal of grizzly bears…( I am a fan of “Bart The Bear” and Alberta scenery.)

        • avatar steve says:

          Yes, ten or so years ago a woman was killed and partially eaten in a predatory attack by a black bear in Tennessee. A few years later a six year old girl was killed in a non-provoked attack also in Tennessee.

          Whether as a result of those attacks or not, I do know that Forest Service warnings on black bears that I have seen in campgrounds and on trails at least in the East, have been changed from basically “do not feed bears or approach them or their cubs” to add “if possible do not hike alone or at night”.

          That’s far different from when I was a kid many decades ago when bears were considered big raccoons–I remember chasing one that had grabbed a backpack.

  3. avatar JEFF E says:

    sorry, not exactly wildlife related and a commercial but……

    • avatar Barb Rupers says:

      I was not impressed by the tree plantations in south-central Chile which have displaced many square miles of native coniferous habitat. Pinus radiata from California and eucalyptis from Australia are used to replace the native, slower growing forests. Harvest cycles were about 25 years for the pine, less for the eucalyptis, which is used for pulp. I was on a birding and treeing tour; I saw only one small brush bird during the two weeks I was there and never got to the areas that contained native trees.

  4. avatar Salle says:

    This is interesting…

    Rocky Mountain National Park wolf reintroduction case to be heard at CU-Boulder

  5. avatar Salle says:

    OpEd calling for taxpayer funding of WYO F&G… Interesting framing

    Will Wyoming be priced out of a way of life?

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      I would be more than happy to pay a fee as a wildlife watcher to help out and keep WYO’s magnificent way of life going.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      Its an interesting piece but the primary worry seems to be to protect hunting and fishing, even while admitting that the state makes a lot of money from wildlife watching. I think people would not mind paying a tax to preserve wildlife and for the priviledge of access to wild lands. I’d hate to have my money going to kill that wildlife. By the time the tourists start seeing the wolf slaughter this fall it will be hard to convince people to pay a wildlife viewing tax.

      • avatar Louise Kane says:

        And Ida
        I’d agree with you, I’d be more than happy to pay a fee but would want wildlife management to reflect that.

      • avatar Ida Lupine says:

        Yes, I agree Louise –

        I could support some hunting and certainly fishing, but not a blatant disregard for wolves and other wildlife. Visitors should help to preserve the wildlife and wild lands they love to visit. It would be a terrible shame if these things were to disappear.

    • avatar Mark LaRoux says:

      While y’all are at it can you just go ahead and tax the sunsets also? Honestly, I think this is the most elitist, uppity idea that I’ve heard in a while. Tax people to look at nature? Really?

      • avatar Nancy says:

        Could be off on my numbers Mark, but a mere 10% of people in this country, hunt and pay fees/taxes to KILL nature.

        Not a stretch to think the other 90% or so, might not have a problem paying to see wildlife, in what’s left of their natural habitats.

        • avatar Mark L says:

          The other 90 percent have already paid for it too…they just don’t complain loudly enough and don’t demand a higher level of responsibility from those that ‘care for the land for us’. Gosh, who was that guy that regretted not ‘misbehaving’ more? Hmm….

          • avatar Rancher Bob says:

            I find it interesting that if 10 percent of the population are hunters how the other 90 percent much be wildlife watchers. I would say the largest percent of the population just have other interest. If watchers were the largest percentage then where are the groups representing the watchers. There is no wildlife watchers unlimited, no wildlife watchers foundation. I think the claim that 90 percent of the population is wildlife watchers is hopeful thinking, because if there was that many people watching wildlife someone would start a group.

            • avatar Louise Kane says:

              Rancher Bob, Your statement “There is no wildlife watchers unlimited, no wildlife watchers foundation. I think the claim that 90 percent of the population is wildlife watchers is hopeful thinking, because if there was that many people watching wildlife someone would start a group.” is ludicrous. First off there is a group called wildlife watchers that is easily found on a simple search of the internet. There are numerous advocacy groups that represent people who wish to see true conservation ideals advanced and advocated for. I would argue that a majority of the people that belong to these organizations do not want to see predators and other animals killed for sport, do not support the use of lead bullets that poison wildlife and their habitats, do not want traps and snares littering, killing and creating mine fields and value wildlife over cows, sheep and domesticated animals. What constituency do you think earthjustice, wildearth guardians, audubon, sierra club, natural resource defense council, center for biological diversity, conservation international and other represent? even at a quick glance there are many many groups and formal organizations dedicated to the protection of wildlife and their habitats. I listed the predator master site as they note the many groups that challenge their killing culture.



            • avatar Louise Kane says:

              I’m betting that the majority of people belonging to these organizations, count themselves as wildlife watchers.

            • avatar Nancy says:

              FYI Bob.


              Now grant you some on the list are memorials, museums, monuments, Ex-Presidential homes, battlefields etc. but many are national parks, seashores and parkways w/ very impressive numbers, of what I’d guess to be, wildlife watchers.

            • avatar JB says:

              Groups for “Wildlife Watchers”

              Defenders of Wildlife
              World Wildlife Fund
              The Audubon Society
              Wildearth Guardians
              The Sierra Club
              The Wildlife Conservation Society
              National Wildlife Federation

              Of course, to my knowledge none of these groups turn away hunters (good for them!). There are also numerous hunting organizations that do great habitat conservation work (e.g., Ducks Unlimited, RMEF–yeah, I know).

              Wildlife conservation (and preservation!) is furthered by the longstanding alliance between hunters and wildlife watchers. Breaking that alliance means both groups will waste money fighting each other (in courts) rather than protecting habitat and endangered populations. In the end, wildlife will lose.

            • avatar Rancher Bob says:

              Nice list everyone just to follow up on my point we all know what a mission statement is and why groups have a mission statement. Now tell me which of the groups you listed say anything about wildlife viewing or watching. You may argue wildlife watcher benefit from these groups but so do hunters at times.
              So called wildlife viewers question why they have no political clout the answer is ludicrous, it’s because you believe you are a majority.
              Every hunter I know is a wildlife watcher but I don’t believe 90% of the population watches wildlife.

            • avatar Immer Treue says:

              Rancher Bob,

              Good point. If I’m allowed to pick and choose, does everyone who belongs to RMEF hunt, or NRA?

              Take the total number of hunters, and I’ll hazard a guess, and they are dwarfed by number of wildlife watchers(non consumptive). That said I would hazard another guess that there are a good number of hunters who view the wildlife experience with the joy of the true nonconsumptive users.

              The majority of wild life watchers, and perhaps a good chunk of hunters are no more than weekend warriors, my last guess

            • avatar Rancher Bob says:

              I would agree.
              What do you think of the statement that if 10% of the population hunts everyone else is a “watcher”.
              I’ll have to read RMEF and the NRA mission statements but I would guess hunters and gun owners.

            • avatar JB says:


              You needn’t guess at the numbers. According to the Census Bureau and USFWS, in 2011 13.7 million people hunted while 71.8 million watched wildlife. So if my calculations are correct, about 5% of the population hunts in a given year, while 24% watch wildlife.

              Now making some assumptions…

              We know not all hunters hunt every year. From our previous studies, I would suggest the number of people who consider themselves hunters is 2-3 times the number that hunt every year. Let’s use 3. That would mean about 40 million people (15%) nationwide are hunters. Of course, it’s also fair to “weight” the stats on wildlife watching (not everyone can make a trip every year–as I learned myself this year). Use a factor of 2 and you get 144 million or so (nearly half, but no where near 90%–and remember close to 1/3 of these folks are hunters).

              With a decreasing proportion of the population hunting, those hunters who would ostracize non-consumptive users of wildlife are fools (and vice versa)–both groups need each other for wildlife conservation to survive.

              Stop fighting and start working together.

            • avatar Rancher Bob says:

              Thanks for the extra work and the 4:44 a.m. part is impressive.
              Mostly it’s not fighting it’s widening the scope of one’s knowledge.

            • avatar Immer Treue says:


              I wrote there are inner city folks who have not seen a cow in a field, I did not write all inner city folks …

              And as we further evolve into a society of electronic gadgetry and spend more time indoors, kids in particular, the gap between the number/% of hunters who watch wildlife and the nonconsumptive wildlife watcher will shrink. Just an educated guess.

          • avatar Immer Treue says:

            Rancher Bob,

            I’d think in the general population you “might” find 10% that are avid wildlife watchers, but I’m guessing again. Get in the inner cities and there are folks that haven’t seen a cow in a field, let alone be able to differentiate between a starling and a robin, and no clue between a grizzly and black bear.

            • avatar Rancher Bob says:

              I would agree.

            • avatar Louise Kane says:

              don’t be so sure about all the inner city folks you discount as ignorant
              and RB all these hunters that you suggest are wildlife watchers, do they watch the wildlife before or after they shoot it?

            • avatar elk275 says:


              Do not be so sure about all hunters. I carry a small pair of binoculars with me and I always stop and look at wildlife. The other evening I was coming back from Big Sky and there were 2 small groups of Big Horn Sheep on the road. If the traffic wasn’t as dangerous I would have stopped. I hope that none of the sheep were killed by a truck.

              I aways stop to look at wildlife if possible.

            • avatar Louise Kane says:

              JB thanks for analysis

            • avatar Rancher Bob says:

              First to be a good hunter you must study your prey.
              Personally I spent a large part of every day outside with all sorts of wildlife it’s part of my life style, and I enjoy watching wildlife. In the last 2 years I’ve been within 30 yards of black bears, grizzly sow with twins,bobcat,lion,wolves, and coyotes just to name the large predators. This may shock you but they all lived through that meeting. There are others who did not live after meeting me, not shocking I’m sure.
              As for the hunters and trappers I know they could tell you and show you more about wildlife and watching wildlife than any biologist because many have degrees.

            • avatar Louise Kane says:

              Rancher Bob
              what eludes me is, being an avid wildlife watcher myself, where that urge to kill comes in? At what precise moment does one decide to end the life of the fascinating, wonderful, amazing animal that is being watched so that it becomes a dead lifeless carcass. Why does it become necessary or satisfying to kill an animal as a trophy? I’ve never heard a defensible argument for that emotion. Its creepy, to me. I get the kill for food argument, not the kill for thrill. I almost hate to see wildlife anymore, I am afraid that the animal I see might not be so careful of the next human it sees, the wildlife watching/loving human with the trap, bow and arrow, snare, or gun. We have created a minefield for wildlife. I am disgusted by that.

            • avatar Rancher Bob says:

              I guess I don’t know the kill for the thrill feeling. Every animal I’ve killed that I recall was killed for a reason, maybe not a reason you would care for. Ralph once said people like me become less sensitive, that may be so, but I kill the coyote because I’m tired of seeing young fawns on the ranch in a panic because they lost their mother the night before. I shoot gophers because badgers dig them up and I’ve had to put a young colt down for a broken leg.
              Nature is a cycle and I’m part of that cycle. You may not see the deaths your life causes but all life continues at the cost of other life.
              You asked I tried to answer.

        • avatar ma'iingan says:

          “Could be off on my numbers Mark, but a mere 10% of people in this country, hunt and pay fees/taxes to KILL nature.

          Not a stretch to think the other 90% or so, might not have a problem paying to see wildlife, in what’s left of their natural habitats.”

          It’s so black and white for you, isn’t it? In reality, however, there’s a lot of overlap between your good group and your evil group.

          Many hunters are “wildlife watchers”, or have family members who don’t hunt but support hunting. Where do they fall on your axis of evil?

          And what is a “wildlife watcher”, anyway? If 90% of citizens qualify automatically the criteria must be very open-ended.

          • avatar Nancy says:

            “It’s so black and white for you, isn’t it? In reality, however, there’s a lot of overlap between your good group and your evil group”

            I didn’t realize I’d reduced the group (and the discussion) to “good & evil” Ma’.

            I said “Not a stretch to think the other 90% or so…..might not have a problem paying to see wildlife, in what’s left of their natural habitats”

            But it certainly wouldn’t be a stretch to say that a HUGE majority, who visit parks and wilderness areas, do so with a camera and not a gun, right?

          • avatar WM says:


            Ma’ makes a really good point: ++Many hunters are “wildlife watchers”, or have family members who don’t hunt but support hunting.++

            My wife (non-hunter but supports my interest in it) and I just got back from a six day backpack trip, and wildlife watching was a big part of it. In a couple of weeks (actually only two weeks a year) I will hunt elk. The rest of the year, all 50 weeks (whether watching squirrels, blue jays, crows and hummingbirds in my back yard), I am a wildlife watcher.

            In which catagory am I counted in such a survey, wildlife watcher or hunter (and how about my non-hunting, but supporting wife)?

      • avatar Ida Lupine says:

        Well, in our modern society – we pay for what we value. Unfortunately. I have always said a visit to the national parks are the most economical trip going, and they need to raid the fees for upkeep, for enough rangers to have a decent salary, and this benefits the parks. I’d gladly do my share.

        I love to watch wildlife wherever I go – my own backyard, a trip in my area, or an amazing trip out West or to a foreign country. I always have my binoculars with me.

        I do agree that as we move ahead in technological gagetry, we lose a sense of the natural world. A lot of people don’t have an inclination or interest in it, and so it gets fogotten – which is why wolves and bighorn sheep etc can get slaughtered because it is assumed, and correctly, that people don’t know what is going on out there and don’t care because it doesn’t affect their every day lives. The wolf delisting is a prime example and a terrible shock, or should be, to our country.

        • avatar Ida Lupine says:

          Oops, make that “raise” not “raid”. 🙂

        • avatar ma'iingan says:

          “The wolf delisting is a prime example and a terrible shock, or should be, to our country.”

          A puzzling comment – the criteria for Federal delisting of WGL wolves were clearly spelled out in the 1978 USFWS Eastern Timber Wolf recovery plan.

          Each state established their own delisting criteria in the years following and developed a management plan, all of them speaking to public harvest as a potential management tool.

          Three attempts were made by USFWS to delist wolves in the WGL states, beginning in 2003, all blocked by lawsuits – so the final delisting in December 2010 was a shock???

          • avatar Ida Lupine says:

            I have followed this issue for years, so I am well aware of how many times attempts were made to get delisting.

            The shock is the way it was done – tacking it on as a budget rider by Congress and precluding any judicial review. State management sounds great in theory, but in actuality it doesn’t seem to be based on scientific objectivity. It will manage them out of existence.

  6. avatar jon says:

    Good news for Minnesota wolf advocates. I’d like to see what immer thinks about this.

    • avatar Immer Treue says:


      Mixed feelings. In my opinion, the rush to hunt after delisting has opened the door for this type of litigation in MN and WI.

      Couple three things I’m concerned about in MN. One, is trapping. I’m just opposed to trapping/snaring period. Number two, the season was originally written with all wolf seasons ending ~ January 3rd or so, and there was some sort of legislatural push to extend the season to ~ January 25 or so. Third and perhaps most important, most of the noise for a wolf season was made by a Dale Lueck and a few other farmers/ranchers. Now, you must understand that ranching up here is different that in the NRM States. The noise was made for “help” with livestock depredations.

      So, my question is why is wolf hunting/trapping not mainly conducted in areas where depredations are higher? Going deep into Superior National forest is for trophy and trophy alone.

      Those are my concerns. On a positive note, a season on wolves “may” serve as a pressure relief valve for those who don’t care for wolves, and there are a lot of them up here. 400 wolves for the season is ~ 13% +/- of the population. That’s pretty conservative. Throw in the 200 or so removed for depredations during. Non-hunting season and the inevitable SSS, and it’s still not too big of a hit on the total population.

      For the most part it’s ranchers and hunters who favor this. It’s surprising how many from MN oppose the hunt. On a personal note, whether I hunt or not this year( NOT WOLVES) the extension ( I believe the extension is for trapping only, I could be wrong) of the wolf season makes my life and that of my dog a bit more complicated. In the past I enjoyed strapping on skis and follow wolf sign through the BWCAW, and look for sign of wolves. If trappers are doing the same thing, where are their traps, both for keeping my dogs safe and of being perceived as obstructing the trappers activities.

      I guess that’s enough.

      • avatar jon says:

        Immer, how would you feel if you came across a trapped or snared wolf in Minnesota? I’m sure it won’t be a pretty sight. They are allowing snares to be used in Minnesota’s upcoming wolf hunt correct?

        • avatar Immer Treue says:


          I’d feel pretty bad, for the wolf, and because I’m anti-trapping. It would be illegal to interfere and if in leg hold, good way to get bit, which is curtains for the wolf anyway.

      • avatar jon says:

        One article I read said that this MN wolf hunt is not being done because of population control, it’s being done so that hunters can have another shoot target to bag as their trophy. Immer, regardless if you have a hunt or not, it will most likely not change how some hunters and ranchers feel about wolves. To a lot of hunters and ranchers, the only good wolf to them is a dead one.

  7. avatar Ida Lupine says:

    It’s so sad – I remember reading about how proud it appeared that Minnesotans were of the success of their wolf reintroduction program, and the International Wolf Center. It was like a selling point for visiting. I guess I read it wrong. 🙁

    • avatar Immer Treue says:


      Not really. I think most folks from MN are proud that the state was the last bastion for wolves, and the fact we have had a fairly constant population for The past 10 years says a lot for the people of the state. Wolves do get into trouble here, but the method of taking. Are of that “problem” has been rather universally well received in the state.

      In the time of electronic communication, there are enough people making enough noise, and the old guard does Not have the power (for lack of a better word “bullying” people who believe wolves belong) they once did. Little Red Riding Hood was wrong.

    • avatar ma'iingan says:

      “It’s so sad – I remember reading about how proud it appeared that Minnesotans were of the success of their wolf reintroduction program, and the International Wolf Center. It was like a selling point for visiting. I guess I read it wrong.”

      You did read it wrong – there was no wolf reintroduction program in Minnesota; wolves were never extirpated – in fact it provided the source population for wolf recolonization of Wisconsin and upper Michigan.

      And while the IWC is indeed something to be proud of, and certainly a tourist destination, it’s a captive wolf facility that has little to do with the controversial issues that surround wild wolves.

  8. avatar jon says:

    Typical comments you would expect from these kind of people. One commenter writes the only good wolf is a dead one and that they belong in zoos, not the woods.

  9. avatar Ida Lupine says:

    Pearce was bowhunting for elk in the upper Squaw Creek when a pack of wolves responded to his cow calls and bugling. Pearce had a wolf tag, so he kept calling to see what they would do.

    I’m so tired of the lies and the spin. The wolf did not stalk him, he called the wolf to him. Other accounts from hunters I have read do the same – the wolf came “after” them (but they used a call to lure them). Noone should have ever given the “management” of these animals back to the states. Even the Washington Post article wasn’t that great – “resurgent” wolves off “federal assistance”. Now if we can only get some of the people off of it. 😉

    • avatar Immer Treue says:

      Ma’iingan has seen this in Wisconsin. Smell like a deer look like a tree, wolves curious by nature investigate and hunter thinks he’s being attacked. Add the bugling in NRM states and wallah!

  10. avatar DLB says:

    “Raids target alleged wildlife poachers and traffickers”

    It’s nice to see the WDFW drill a few miscreants from time to time.

    • avatar Immer Treue says:


      Love that word miscreants!

      “They say it is a growing black market that threatens the survival of wild game herds and the safety of humans who are served uninspected game in stores and restaurants.

      They also say poaching and trafficking has spawned a new and profitable angle for organized crime.”

      Probably over sized egos from the MacKenzie Valley of Canada, eh?

  11. avatar Nancy says:

    “They also say poaching and trafficking has spawned a new and profitable angle for organized crime”

    Gee, what do you think the chances are, the Fish & Game boys who cover Townsend, have a few “feet” on the ground (re this recent post by Salle)

    Are these sorry examples of hunters, gonna be “hanging em proudly w/bragging rights” on some wall in their homes or…. is organized crime (meaning exactly whom?) more prevalent these days due to the economy?

  12. avatar jon says:

    “This attitude — the only good predator is a dead predator, based largely not on livestock protection but on competition for game — is lessening with each generation but will probably always hang on, handed down by ancestors and camp lore. I heard it in camps hither and yon during my own growing-up years and carried some of the bias into early adulthood, when the illogic and immorality of it slowly dawned.”

    • avatar Immer Treue says:

      “This attitude — the only good predator is a dead predator, based largely not on livestock protection but on competition for game — is lessening with each generation but will probably always hang on, handed down by ancestors and camp lore”

      That’s the drift I get from those who don’t care for wolves up here Jon.

    • avatar Mark L says:

      Anyone want to venture a guess where this attitude originated?

      • avatar Mark L says:

        Ok….no takers on the origin. Before there was ever mention of ‘predator’, the phrase used ‘indian’. Now why would they say that, and what’s it got to do with wolves? Anybody?

  13. avatar jon says:

    This is how some people treat our wildlife. Having tournaments where hunters who kill the most coyotes win prizes and money.

  14. avatar Louise Kane says:

    a link on the site for the petition for rulemaking. These are one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit against hunting wolves in MN

    Interesting to see the WS and MN lawsuitrs brought by some smaller orgs working in tandem with larger groups like Center for Biological Diversity. I hope its a new trend of cooperative advocacy

  15. avatar Jeff N. says:

    Another article on the Wedge Pack and their taste for cattle.

    If this guy is having a chronic depredation problem with this pack, as he claims, than the pack needs to be controlled, no doubt. But I’m tired of the same old bullshit coming from the mouths of these people.

    For instance:

    ++++”The game department told me they’re nearly 100 percent beef in the manure piles,” Laurier, Wash., rancher Len McIrvin said. “They’ve taken all the game in this area and are just living on these cattle.”++++

    They’ve taken all the game and are no going after cattle. Probably not. If in fact they are taking as many cattle as he claims, they’ve discovered that bringing down a cow is easier than finding and killing elk.

    100% beef manure piles? Too funny

    ++++McIrvin said he still gets phone calls, with the callers seem to be evenly distributed between industrial support and avid wolf supporters.
    “As long as it’s not their cattle, pets or kids getting eaten, everything is great,” he said wryly. “One woman in Seattle said, ‘I love wolves, I’d just like to take one home to cuddle with.’ I wish she would.”++++

    The usual dead kid nonsense and the outright lie that some wolf supporter from “Seattle” called him and said she wanted to cuddle with a wolf. Making up nonsense like this makes him look stupid-er.

    ++++”It’s not the wolves’ problem — wolves do what wolves do: They kill for fun, support and hunger,”++++

    And of course, the “killing for fun” had to be thrown in there. And what is killing for “support”? Maybe it was a misquote and he actually said “sport”….please.

    I’d take this guy more seriously if he’d quit barfing up the usual garbage you hear from people who don’t support the comeback of the wolf.

    • avatar jon says:

      Can’t blame the wolves for being wolves. Wolves aren’t dumb animals. This is a rancher caused problem, not a wolf. Not surprised one bit that the ranchers want the whole wolf pack wiped out. I think there is 11-12 wolves in that whole pack and I hope WDFW doesn’t cave into the demands from the ranchers and kill off the whole pack.

    • avatar jon says:

      I don’t believe they killed off all the game in the area. They are going after the easiest prey and that is cattle. They say they are going to go out of business if the wegde pack isn’t killed. You can expect that wolf advocates will voice their opposition if WDFW caves into these rancher’s demands and decide to kill off this whole pack which includes the alpha male and alpha female which they said in the past they would not kill.

    • avatar bret says:

      Jeff N.
      ++100% beef manure piles? Too funny++

      . WDFW states that “Western U.S. wolf experts agree this pack is now targeting livestock over natural wild prey.”

      sounds like the rancher may not be that far off.

      • avatar Rancher Bob says:

        I would guess the humor would end quickly if those wolf piles were costing Jeff what they cost beef producers. It’s September, the time to gather your cattle close if wolves live near.

        • avatar Nancy says:

          “It’s September, the time to gather your cattle close if wolves live near”

          Oh PLEASE RB…. September is a time/dealine to get cattle out of many areas of public lands.

          Its also a time to sort and seperate the big from the little (cows & calves)

          I’m right now listening to a 100 head or so of cows down on the meadow in front of me, mourning that seperation, which took place just a day ago.

          Bags still full of milk and their babies are gone, shipped off…that simple when it comes to raising livestock. $$$

          • avatar Rancher Bob says:

            Last year you were whining about cattle on public lands in October now your whining about cattle off public land in September. Having buyers remorse or wishing you had more $$$.

            • avatar Nancy says:

              Geez, I’m amazed that you would keep such close tabs on my comments RB 🙂 but if you will recall, it was October last year only because it was a late spring/snow and moving cattle to and off public lands was delayed a few weeks.

              Bags still full of milk and these gals are wearing a path around the fencelines right now looking for their babies.

              Perhaps more thought out to be given to weight when they come off the range vs weaning right about the same time?

            • avatar Rancher Bob says:

              I’m not going to make management decisions for your neighbors from my chair. 🙂

            • avatar Nancy says:

              I’m not going to make management decisions for your neighbors from my chair”

              And you shouldn’t have to RB, its not like any of you have anything in common.

      • avatar Jeff N. says:

        Brett and RB. I clearly stated that the pack needs to be controlled if the depredations are chronic, which it appears they are.

        I’m not disputing the depredations. Just pointing out that “100% pure beef manure piles” made me chuckle. Sounds like it should be used in an advertisement or something. Settle down boys.

    • avatar Mark L says:

      On a related issue, I’d be curious to know how many of those cat killing coyotes have been taken during night hunts. Do they keep stats on this stuff? If not, how would we know if it’s effective?

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      anyone know if the wolf killed had anything to do with the the stepped up coyote killing plans? The article does not say much

  16. avatar steve says:

    I was down in the Ozarks last weekend and around sunset saw what I at first thought was a run-of-the-mill deer warning sign alongside highway 65 near the Buffalo River National River. My wife and I laughed at the unusually large antlers on the sign.

    A couple miles later, we looked off to the left and in a meadow about 150 yards off the highway was a herd of about 20 elk, with 3 large bulls.

    Yes, I knew that elk had been restocked in Arkansas, yet still it was a treat to see them.

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      Such stress for the poor cub. I don’t know why they kill the mother like that. I will always say that losing cattle is the cost of doing business when you have a ranch in areas with wildlife, and if you don’t take steps to watch the animals or to keep predators at bay. There was a story here that I found absolutely shocking – a man freaked out and destroyed hundreds of birds and their eggs because they were pests on his farm. Hundreds. Something has to change in the way we do things, especially since in modern times we should have better, non-poisonous and non-lethal means, and also because there are so many of us and so few of them. Also, I never can understand why an animal is called “it” – they are male or female, he or she. To keep the great divide between humans and other living things going, I guess.

  17. avatar JEFF E says:

    “but…but….but…accelerated climate change is just a environmentalist party trick”, says the Maine jelly fish.

  18. avatar Louise Kane says:

    more on the MN lawsuit
    The case appears to have merit based on the DNR ignoring an administrative rule making process. Specifically notable are the comments at the end of the article. The tone, level of thoughtfulness, and concern about the DNR overstepping its authority are impressive and differ radically from those you mights see in response to something written about Idaho or Montana wolves. A refreshing step in the right direction if these wolves are left unmolested from the hunting and killing spree. I’d especially love to see this population remain free from hunting so there is at least one group of wolves to use as a baseline study to determine natural dispersal, effects on prey, livestock,stability of population densities, overall health, and to as the author notes to allow even more more time for public acceptance of wolves to thrive. Keep the lawsuits coming

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      Domesticated dogs have always had the potential for carrying tapeworm and other such things. This is a new one? All the more reason for people to clean up after their dogs in parks for santiation purposes (one of my pet peeves!) 🙂

    • avatar Salle says:

      When asked about the utility of predator-prey relationships, Allen explained, “Natural balance is a Walt Disney movie. It isn’t real.” Under his leadership, the Elk Foundation recently offered the state of Montana $50,000 to contract with the federal Wildlife Services agency to “aggressively” kill more wolves. “And the next step is the grizzly bear,” he said. “We’ve got bear issues with elk calves in the spring—both grizzly and black bear. We can’t have all these predators with little aggressive management and expect to have ample game herds, and sell hunting tags and generate revenue.”

      This approach has not gone over well with some conservationists. Ralph Maughan, a director of the Western Watersheds Project and the Wolf Recovery Foundation, said that Allen “has not only taken a strongly anti-wolf position, but he has done it taking an in-your-face way to traditional conservation organizations such as those supported by Olaus Murie. … Allen has also expressed contempt for many of the concepts of ecology, as he seems to be moving the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation toward a single-species, single-value-of-elk (hunting) approach.”

    • avatar jon says:

      “”Mr. Allen and his anti-wolf rhetoric have alienated him and his organization from many of the very organizations that have helped the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation—in subtle and profound ways—garner the successes it has had over the years,” said Bob Ferris, a 30-year wildlife researcher.

      It’s sad that a foundation that once understood the complex relationship between elk and wolves has succumbed to the pressures of hunters who don’t like wolves.”

      So very true imho.

  19. avatar Salle says:

    Chimney Rock to be named a national monument

    Chimney Rock to be named a national monument – The Denver Post
    Read The Denver Post’s Terms of Use of its content:

    The land will be managed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Forest Service, and White House officials said they will work with the tribes in the area. Ranchers will maintain grazing rights.

    This appears to be a bi-partisan effort. It is in the midst of Southern Ute Indian Reservation which indicates that the grazing permittees are quite likely tribal ranchers.

  20. avatar Salle says:

    Arctic Sea Ice Levels Hit Record Low, Scientists Say We’re ‘Running Out Of Time’


    ‘Planetary Emergency’: New Data Elevates Climate Change Alarm
    Arctic exploitation ‘perfect indictment of our failure to get to grips with the greatest problem we’ve ever faced’

  21. avatar Nancy says:

    Hmmm……..”The most recent national survey shows hunter numbers are up nation-wide”

  22. avatar Ralph Maughan says:

    Because there is no room for another “reply” in the thread where it is posted, I will make this comment at the top level.

    Mark Gamblin (IDFG) wrote on September 20, 2012 at 4:35 am

    “The most recent national survey shows hunter numbers are up nation-wide. Idaho hunter numbers have been stable or slightly increasing for a number of years. Surveys that cross-reference recreation activities by wildlife enthusiasts consistently document that a significant percentage of “wildlife watchers” are also “hunters”. This again illustrates why wildlife conservationists – hunters, wildlife watchers, those who simply want to know that abundant wildlife resources are being conserved – have more in common than in conflict. Unity among all wildlife advocates is absolutely necessary for wildlife conservation to succeed in the face of the increasing challenges we know are coming.”
    [boldface is mine — RM]

    I couldn’t agree more with Mark though we our differences over specifics. This is a major reason why I began this on-line newspaper though it is not the only reason. Having said this, I am dismayed at the reflexive anti-hunting attitude some people who comment take in post after post. I wish people who constantly “hum” this one note would take their tune somewhere else.

    • avatar JB says:

      Hear, hear!

      • avatar Louise Kane says:

        do you think that the anti-hunting relfex might have something to do with the evolution of a destructive hunting ethos that seems to be prevalent in so many places and that we see evidence of all over the internet and elsewhere. There appear to be a great many sites and organizations devoted to killing predators and to celebrating killing as much and as fast as is possible. This does not embody a conservation ethic to me. Is the kill as much as you can model one that will sustain abundant wildlife resources? A bigger question to me is can wildlife populations sustain the hunting losses they have in the past in the face of human encroachment and habitat loss? Is it that unreasonable to rethink hunting, at least trophy hunting, of large mammals. Is it unreasonable to think that the proverbial olive branch might not work in management regimes anymore because hunting ethics are not what they used to be, we have less wilderness and fewer robust populations of animals.

        • avatar Savebears says:

          Fewer Robust populations? Come on, most large mammals are at all time highs in populations Louise..

          In the early part of the 1900’s Whitetails were all but gone in the US, now they are the Most prolific game animal in the US, in many areas Elk are running at all time highs, many species have recovered and are thriving!

        • avatar Savebears says:

          Why would a pro hunter want to rethink management based on an anti hunters ideas?

          • avatar Louise Kane says:

            maybe because a rethinking is in order because the current managemnet practices do not appear to equally incorporate the desires of both sides – hunting and non hunting. Most of you here argue that the majority of hunters have ethics and that you are trained to kill and employ the least suffering possible when doing so and that you utilize your kill. So there would be little argument from most of you then that eliminating killing for fun, trapping, snaring and the use of arrows would help you to legitimize that position?

        • avatar Immer Treue says:

          But Louise,

          “do you think that the anti-hunting relfex might have something to do with the evolution of a destructive hunting ethos that seems to be prevalent in so many places and that we see evidence of all over the internet and elsewhere. There appear to be a great many sites and organizations devoted to killing predators and to celebrating killing as much and as fast as is possible.”

          1. In the posting guide lines it states this is not an anti-hunting blog.
          2. It would appear from the postings of those who hunt on this site, there exist only those who hunt for food, and that includes the few bears that some admit to have taken.
          3. Other than the few bears, no predator hunters here. Nobody posing with pictures of what they have killed.
          4. These are the very people, those who hunt with ethics, who post here. Why in the world would someone try to alienate them?
          5. Unethical hunters and poachers are continually exposed on this blog.
          6. Logical debate is stimulating, it makes one think and defend the points one makes. There’s a lot of good “stuff” that goes on in the world of wildlife. Wolves are the lightning rod critter. Twenty years ago in the lower 48 they were found only in MN, and a few in WI and MI. In the NRM SSS took care of the dispersers from
          Canada before they could propagate. We’ve come a long way.

          • avatar Louise Kane says:

            I agree logical debate is stimulating, and its one of the reasons I read this blog. There is a great deal to learn here from some pretty impressive people.

            However, I am not so sure I agree that there is so much “good stuff” going on. I think your assessemnt that wolves are a lightning rod critter and not necessarily representative of other wildlife policy or attidtudes has merit. But anti predator policy is a die hard tradition that is going to take a lot of work to reverse. You said, “Twenty years ago in the lower 48 they were found only in MN, and a few in WI and MI.” The main reason they persisted in the last 17 years is because they were protected. taking away those protections only reveals the need to reinstate them until tolerance has been fostered, learned and implemented through laws and regulations. You are probably right there is some good stuff but there is still an avalanche of disturbing bad policy that does little to foster coopertaive startegies and relys heavily on killing. For people who don’t believe that killing wildlife is necesary, good or valuable as management, the current paradigm tha creates a defensive environment that does not make it easy to work coorepratively. Its hard to feel hopeful in 2012 when its still legal to maim, torture and harrass wildlife. Penning, hunting with dogs, snares, traps, arrows – all methods of suffering that are incomprehensible to me. and for trophies or fun!

            • avatar Immer Treue says:


              In terms of recreational trapping, I’m with you 100%. I don’t know if coyote killing feeds this predator frenzy, but it seems the more they kill, the more coyotes there are.

              The moribund need to kill, just to kill is, well, moribund.

              All that said, the hunters on this site all appear sound and ethical with what they do, and for them to continually have to defend themselves and their legal activity, against a few very vocal individual is wrong.

              Perhaps what we need to do is capitalize on instances such as the anti- wolf/predator folks do. The smirking idiot in front of his trapped wolf posting for the entire world to see for example. Pictures are worth a thousand words, and there will be many such opportunities.

              Harranging the individuals who are on our side is counterproductive.

              I said to Nabeki on this site that we are all on the same side, our perspectives might be different, but we are on the same side, why eat our own?

            • avatar Mike says:

              ++All that said, the hunters on this site all appear sound and ethical with what they do, and for them to continually have to defend themselves and their legal activity, against a few very vocal individual is wrong.++

              If this truly is a forum for multiple viewpoints, then anti-hunting posts must be accepted as well as pro-hunting.

              To many non-hunters, hunting is an unethical act, period. Many legal acts are unethical (see the trapping season on Montana wolverines, which I’m sure you agree is idiotic).

              They way you frame your paragraph above Immer, is that somehow anti-hunters are at fault. That falls in line with why’s and how’s of this site’s transition.

              To many ethical U.S. citizens, hunting is unethical. This does not make these people “wrong” or “bad”, even on this forum. This is a valid a viewpoint as any others.

              And please, note the title of this site. “Wildlife News”, not “wildlife shoot-em up”.

            • avatar Immer Treue says:


              You have made your point, perhaps thousands of times, and at times I have stood up for you. But you over generalize about those who contribute to this site. There is very little contribution on this site that deals with the actual act of hunting, it’s about wildlife.

              You continually paint yourself into a corner with outlandish statements about hunting cabals and advocates for killing wolves and bears. I’m your perception, killing one is too many. You’ve made that point. Other than continually rant, what do you propose to do about it. You’re not going to end hunting. You won’t end trapping (although here you might have a better chance than hunting)what are you going to do about it. Lead, be realistic, stop bitching. You just might get some to join you.

            • avatar Mike says:

              Immer –

              And others have made their points (IE, that we should kill predators) over and over again.

              The difference of course is you agree with them.

            • avatar Immer Treue says:


              Another “over” generalization.

        • avatar ma'iingan says:

          …”fewer robust populations of animals.”

          Simply not true – all or our large carnivores are expanding their ranges due to robust core populations; wolves, both species of bear, and puma.

          With the notable exception of moose, ungulate herds are exceeding management goals in most states, and the moose losses seem to be more related to climate change than hunting or habitat.

          I think the “fewer robust populations” exist only in your imagination.

          • avatar Louise Kane says:

            Ma…I think there is a substantial body of evidence that exists to show terrific historical declines in animal populations as well as habitat loss throughout the US. I guess it depends on what the baseline was. Are we better off this year then we were five years ago, ten years ago, 50 or a hundred? Are there more large mammals and carnivores then there were 50 years ago, do they inhabit substantial portions of their former ranges, and in what densities? Do we define success becasue in the wake of extirpations like wolves in the RM, there are now some, number debatable.
            There are also those that question the North American model of conservation, those who argue that the current methods for assessing healthy and robust populations need revision.
            Its been debated endelssly here but really your statement that “its all in my mind” ignores some very real questions and concerns.

            If the recovery goal for wolves is listed at 150 for the huge states of Montana, Wyoming and Idaho what does that say about the notion of robustness as it currently relates to traditional management practices?

            The link below outlines the means of estimating populations and some of the issues related to accurate assessments. While I am not as educated as you are about the methods used or the data, it appears to dovetail similar problems that plague fishery management and that have resulted in crashes worldwide.

            As in fisheries, wildlife managers use data and statistics that can not and do not always rely on head counts and extrapolate data from take or harvest and then use that as the basis for the baseline population data. The resource extractor exerts pressure on the managemnet system to allow high “harvest” rates and management is focused around the desires or needs of the recosurce user. There may be an incentive to use euphamistic numbers perhaps even when those numbers are challenged. (Idaho and Montana)
            This is one of many links I found outlining several methods of assessing populations that raised questions in my mind about he reliability of the data. I’m sure you, JB or Wm will have others that may be better sources and if so I’d like to read them.

            I also placed this link that relates to reassessing the way that large mammals and carnivores are managed and what constitues scientifically defensible popupulations
   I hope you’ll take the time to read it.

            if this is truly a place for open debate and learning then why should’nt we question the values and accepted norms that bring us to a place where 150 wolves in huge states with huge tracs of federal land is deemed to be a defensible postion by wildlife managers. And where many scientists and environmenatlists argue that the loss of apex predators is having a tremendous negative impact.

            • avatar JB says:


              There is no question that we are better off than we were 50 or 100 years ago, and much of the success is attributable to the efforts of hunters to procure and preserve habitat, and reintroduce game species. 110 years ago there were no deer in Ohio; now we have too many. 100 years ago there were no black bear; now we have ~150 that are slowly recovering. Protection and restoration of other important habitat types (e.g., wetlands, grasslands) have also helped a number of other species–especially migratory birds. There are certainly problem species that will require tremendous efforts (bats and amphibians come to mind). But by and large the picture is not as bleak as the one you would paint.

            • avatar Mike says:

              ++There is no question that we are better off than we were 50 or 100 years ago, and much of the success is attributable to the efforts of hunters to procure and preserve habitat, and reintroduce game species. ++

              Actually, it was hunters/trappers, and a similar mentality we are seeing now in the Rockies towards wolves, that wiped out all the wildlife all those years ago.

              Awards are not given to a guy who intentionally starts his house on fire, then who marches a hose over to put it out.

            • avatar Mike says:

              JB –

              Actually, core habitat is down considerably from 50-100 years ago.

              Roadless areas, by definition the purest habitat, are down 75% across the lower 48. So is biodiversity.

              If it wasn’t for conservation groups fighting for protection of these roadless lands and public land, we’d be even worse off.

            • avatar Mike says:

              ++if this is truly a place for open debate and learning then why should’nt we question the values and accepted norms that bring us to a place where 150 wolves in huge states with huge tracs of federal land is deemed to be a defensible postion by wildlife managers. And where many scientists and environmenatlists argue that the loss of apex predators is having a tremendous negative impact.++


              You make a fantastic point.

              I’d like to see Ralph answer this. And perhaps, I think I’d like to see a clarification as to whether non-hunting views are welcome here.

            • avatar jon says:

              The government, hunters, trapers, etc were all responsible for extirpating the wolves all those years ago and today, it’s a little different. The feds want to make sure wolves are around and hunters, trappers, and ranchers share the same attitude they did all those years ago, they want wolves exterminated. There was a recent survey done in Montana fwp and guess what, the ranchers and hunters surveyed had a low tolerance for wolves, but they supporting killing wolves. These people are living in the 1800s. I understand the disdain that people have for ranchers and hunters in their regards towards wolves.

            • avatar jon says:

              Idaho fish and game have not said how many wolves they want in Idaho. I think this is their way of secretly saying they want only 150 wolves in Idaho. Idaho can sustain much more than 150 wolves. The thing I find most troubling is bringing wolves down to these low numbers when there are over 20,000 black bears in Idaho and over 3,000 cougars.

            • avatar JB says:

              “Actually, it was hunters/trappers, and a similar mentality we are seeing now in the Rockies towards wolves, that wiped out all the wildlife all those years ago.”


              It is hard to generalize about these things, but I think it is fair to say that most species declines in the US were due to unfettered destruction of habitat. Where you and I live (the Midwest), that meant converting the dominant second-growth forest and wetlands to use for agriculture. This happened before modern hunters existed; indeed, much of it happened before hunting was even regulated. Furthermore, it happened at a time when calling oneself a “hunter” would have no meaning–it would not have differentiated you from any other settler.

              The elimination of numerous bird species was due primarily to MARKET hunting, which has essentially been outlawed. Wolves were a special case. They were not eliminated by hunters but rather via the use of bounties and poisons sponsored by state and federal governments.

              “Actually, core habitat is down considerably from 50-100 years ago.”

              Habitat as a concept is only valuable relative to a particular species. What is “core” habitat for grassland birds, doesn’t work for forest-dwelling species. So I don’t know what you mean when you say “core habitat is down considerably”. Core habitat for what?

              Now listen closely Mike and you may learn something. Every year the amount of public land in the US increases–every year. One of the major mechanisms is via the purchase of private land to conserve habitat via federal excise taxes from hunters and gun purchasers. These lands are called “Wildlife Areas” and anyone can access them. And guess what? Many of these lands get permanently protected from uses that do long term ecological damage (oil and gas extraction).

              Other major mechanisms are the designation of parks, monuments, seashores, forests and other protected areas, along with the acquisition of land by other conservation groups (e.g., the Nature Conservancy).

            • avatar Mike says:

              B –

              Perk your ears up on this one, and you might learn something.

              Adding public land does not mean such land is the best habitat. “Best habitat” is defined as habitat untrammeled by man, which can host a variety of species at any given time.

              The best habitat for apex predators in the lower 48 (as are often discussed on this site) are roadless areas. Roadless habitat is down 75% compared to 100 years ago. Your comments that we are “better off” than 100 years ago is completely off the mark ,and perhaps a sign that you don’t value biodiversity, but rather common, huntable species that easily adapt to disturbed environments (such as grouse and white-tailed deer).

            • avatar JB says:

              “The best habitat for apex predators in the lower 48 (as are often discussed on this site) are roadless areas. Roadless habitat is down 75% compared to 100 years ago.”

              Mike: Let’s analyze this a bit more shall we? You say that large carnivores are worse off because the “best habitat” for them is declining. And yet there are more cougars, more black bear, more grizzly, and more wolves in the US–all increasing both in numbers and in range. Where I live bobcat are also making a comeback, and coyotes are doing well everywhere, including downtown Chicago and LA. Clearly these trends conflict with your hypothesis. If large carnivores required “roadless area” (as you indicate) to prosper, and said roadless areas are decining, then carnivores should also be declining–they aren’t. The logical conclusion is that your hypothesis is at fault.

              Indeed, the term you use “roadless” areas is the problem. Large carnivores don’t requires roadless areas (as the thousands of black bears in New Jersey would tell you, could they talk). Heck, they don’t even require freeway-less areas.

              Got any more hypotheses you’d like to float, Mikey.

            • avatar Mike says:

              I don’t even know where to begin, JB.

              a 75% reduction in core roadless habitat is not “better off than we were 50-100 years ago”.

              Roadless habitat is, by definition, the highest level of habitat you can attain. It has been reduced by 75%, or more.

            • avatar JB says:

              I don’t even know where to begin, JB.”

              That’s right, Mike–you don’t, glad you’re finally willing to admit it. 😉 Here let me help you… One reason your pulled-from-a-hat statistic isn’t predictive of carnivore success is because it isn’t meaningful for carnivore populations. Good quality habitat for carnivores does not require an absence of “roads” (again, see bears in New Jersey, coyotes in Chicago, cougars all over the West).

              Also recognize that many of the so-called “roads” on federal public land are not roads in a conventional sense–at least not in the way a guy from Chicago would understand them; rather, they are temporary roads (two tracks) built for timber harvest and then pretty much abandoned. These don’t hinder large carnivores in the least. Indeed, the may facilitate their movement.

              Again, your utter inability to recognize nuance prevents you from understanding.

            • avatar SAP says:

              JB – I agree with a lot of your central point here – if we’re not killing them, carnivores can thrive in many places, including suburban Connecticut and Lincoln Park in Chicago. But, with regard to roads, the devil is in the details.

              With the huge popularity of ATVs — in particular, the little side-by-sides with very narrow widths — a “troad” (a trail that has become a road due to repeated use, or a former logging road mostly deteriorated into a trail) can end up having quite an effect on wildlife.

              The biggest issue is just that a road /troad brings people into closer proximity to large carnivores. If it’s a place with no motorized access, few people are going to go there, and in particular they won’t go set up big camps there. If they can go there with all their crap and set up small villages, then formerly remote habitat suddenly has a lot of human activity in it.

              I don’t see a lot of guys actually trying to hunt from the seat of their atv’s, but they do use them to get themselves to a remote jumping-off point very quickly (10 miles from the truck in less than an hour). If they had to walk or ride a horse to the same place, they probably wouldn’t get there at all.

              The key here is that if it’s supposed to be roadless/non-motorized, then there have to be rules, enforcement, and actual physical impediments to ATVs getting there.

            • avatar JB says:


              Actually, I think what you’ve written reinforces the point I was trying to make. In fact, you went straight to the heart of the issue when you wrote: “…with regard to roads, the devil is in the details.”

              Exactly! It isn’t the qualities of road per se that cause problems for carnivores, but rather what people do with/on them. But of course you’ve just added another layer of nuance. For Mike, roadless=good, road=bad. Period.

              A colleague of mine has amazing video of coyotes using roadways in downtown Chicago. One animal actually stops at a red light, waits for it to change, and then crosses the street with traffic. Has the coyote learned to use our system to avoid getting squashed…? I don’t know? But I do know that they do quite well despite high road density AND heavy use.

            • avatar Mark L says:

              I wouldn’t conssider a coyote a ‘large predator’ in the class of wolf or puma…maybe meso and the fact that they are very tolerant of roaded areas makes them a poor example. FLorida panthers would be a good example of a subsp. that has been impaced by roads more that many others…heck, 2 roads specifically have killed most in last 10 years. Wolves prefer to be away from humans also….leaning to roadless areas. If I recall, even the USFW uses roadless areas as a determinant for candidate places for panther and red wolf reintro.

            • avatar Mike says:

              ++That’s right, Mike–you don’t, glad you’re finally willing to admit it. 😉 Here let me help you… One reason your pulled-from-a-hat statistic isn’t predictive of carnivore success is because it isn’t meaningful for carnivore populations. Good quality habitat for carnivores does not require an absence of “roads” (again, see bears in New Jersey, coyotes in Chicago, cougars all over the West).++

              JB –

              The water seems to be at your chin, and you’re doggy-paddling again.

              We are talking about apex predators, and rare species within the context of the lower 48. These include wolverine, grizzly bear, wolf, cougar, and so forth. All of these animals correlate with roadless habitat, or within the first two or three “habitat rings” that emanate from roadless cores. Without these cores, these species do not exist. A good example is the 1 million acre roadless area in Minnesota (known to some as the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness). This roadless core provided a refuge for wolves and allowed for the natural recolonization of Michigan and Wisconsin.

              Without this massive core, wolves are not back and healthy in the upper Great Lakes.

              The same holds true for grizzly bears. They only exist in substantial populations within the largest roadless ecosystems in the lower 48 (The Crown of the Continent Ecosystem and the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem). Roads of all kinds are a major deterrent for their spread to former range, such as the island ranges in central Montana and the Bitterroot Mountains.

              ++Also recognize that many of the so-called “roads” on federal public land are not roads in a conventional sense–at least not in the way a guy from Chicago would understand them; rather, they are temporary roads (two tracks) built for timber harvest and then pretty much abandoned. These don’t hinder large carnivores in the least. Indeed, the may facilitate their movement.++

              JB, you are in over your head. I worked on behalf of the Roadless Initiative for several conservation groups,and much of my study involves roadless areas. I spend far, far more time than you do camping in them and traversing the roaded country alongside them.

              These roads can be devastating to apex predators like grizzly bears and wolverine. There’s really no such thing as a “temporary” road. Their imprint will last as long as you live. These roads allow for increased use of motor vehicles such as ATV’s and snowmobiles, which in turn bring invasive species, poaching, and habitat displacement by audio (see wolverine denning studies and motors).

              You are realy showing your inexperience with roadless areas her. I strongly suggest you read this primer to get acquainted with the nature of these places:


              The effects of roads on grizzly bears:


              The effects of roads on wolverine:


              Your assertion that these national forest roads are “not roads in the traditional sense” is absurd, and reveals absolute shallowness of your argument.

              And of course this goes directly back to my point about the loss of Roadless Areas in the last 100 years, and you’re comment that we are “better off”.

            • avatar Mike says:

              ++Exactly! It isn’t the qualities of road per se that cause problems for carnivores, but rather what people do with/on them. But of course you’ve just added another layer of nuance. For Mike, roadless=good, road=bad. Period.++


              You’ve swung and missed again.

              The quality of the road plays a significant part in the impacts on the ecosystem. For example, see this study on logging roads, the maintenance backlog, and fisheries:


              If there is a road, people will try and use it, whether by car, truck, ATV, snowmobile, or cross country skiing. Roads have an immediate effect on rare predators such as grizzly bears, wolverine, and lynx.

              By and large, these predators avoid roads, and these roads can fragment their habitat. This fragmentation has occurred over the past 100 years, with a massive reduction in core roadless habitat, and thus a reduction in these species.

              Roads, no matter the kind, are the single biggest block for species dispersal in the Northern Rockies and elsewhere.

              Good page on the effects of roads on certain wildlife:


            • avatar ma'iingan says:

              “Wolves prefer to be away from humans also….leaning to roadless areas.”

              That’s a fallacy – all wolves need is a food source and human tolerance. They would happily live in suburbia if we would tolerate them killing and eating our family pets. Here in Wisconsin we have cases every spring and summer of wolves denning and rendezvousing on cranberry marshes and other ag facilities, where they have human contact on a daily basis.

              We have 5000+ wolves in the WGL states that are thriving amidst high road densities – very few of them are in areas of less than .6km/km2 of road density, which was once thought to be the threshold of desirable recolonization (Thiel, 1985).

              In fact, there is ample evidence that wolves do very well in higher road densities, not only to aid efficient travel around their territories, but to provice an easy means to maintain territorial signposts.

              Our well-vetted winter census technique in Wisconsin is to search out wolf tracks on forest roads after a fresh snowfall – a protocol that has provided us a solid population estimate since the late 70’s when it was first implemented.


            • avatar JB says:


              I agree; the Florida panther is a great example of an animal that is very much impacted by roads. But the types of roads that surround them are a far cry from the two-tracks and “troads” SAP describes in our national forests. They are the counter-example to the coyote example I provided (both being on either end of a continuum, I would argue).


              I lived for 2 years exactly 5 minutes from a National Forest in Utah, I spent 20 years about 20 minutes from a National Forest in Michigan–both of which a frequented on foot–usually running trails and the FS roadways. To your larger point–I don’t disagree with what SAP wrote; rather, I disagree with Mike’s contention that “roadless” is required for large/apex carnivores.
              It’s not. If it were, populations of these animals wouldn’t be increasing and occupying new territory–much of it full of roads of one sort or another.


              Large carnivore populations are generally increasing, many in places where there are no “roadless areas”. Spin as you may, you can’t escape this fact. Habitat for carnivores is also increasing with more added every year, and populations are responding. These are the pertinent facts.

            • avatar Salle says:


              I am gad that you had some brief time in the RM area but there are few, if any grizzly bears in Utah, and until recently no wolves, per se. Sure, there are some felids in those areas but I don’t think your analogy addresses my point, and in some ways Mike’s. (I’ll let Mike make his own arguments here.) But in this case I tend to agree with his point on the necessity of “roadless” areas for apex predators, thus my citations in the prior comment.

              Sure, these predators can be found in metro areas and suburban areas and where there are roads but the broader picture here is that this expansion into reclaimed-by humans-habitat is the interface where they also end up dead due to their interaction with humans in this roaded interface territory. Humans won’t tolerate other species than those which they perceive to be acceptable as pets, within their developed areas.

              This is my primary argument about how wildlife is perceived and treated (usually by trapping/shooting/poisoning and disposing of-usually in the form of dead) when they wander into human developed areas and that humans are way too self appointedly entitled to life sanitized of anything considered wild. Thus,it also precedes the arguments you make with regard to the animals who find their way into human dominated/developed areas being in need of management for the safety of those very special humans and, consequently, most of those nonhumans usually end up dead. On that, I vehemently disagree that there is any true justification… only a severe lack of consideration, self reflection and compassion.

              And to finish, this interface concern also expands to the realm of wildlife habitat that is actually wild. Apparently, they aren’t allowed to be wild or exist even in their last remnants of untrammeled habitat… as many claim, “…you can’t have wild animals just running wild in the wilderness…” (as I have heard this from F&G and elected officials for heaven’s sake!!).

              Humans need to back off. Enough is enough! Russian Proverb: What we have we don’t treasure; having lost it we cry.

            • avatar JB says:


              I guess I’m not sure what we’re disagreeing about?

              My argument is simply this: Roads per se are not a problem for the vast majority of NA carnivores. In fact, roads are merely a proxy for human access and activities. When and where human access and subsequent activities cause conflicts with carnivores, we have problems (and carnivores are killed in response).

              As you well know, our great America storehouse of large carnivores (Yellowstone National Park) has a very well-traveled interstate highway (89) that runs right through the middle of wolf and grizzly habitat, in an area that up until recently had some of the highest wolf densities ever recorded. If roadlessness were required, this would not have been possible. The question is why? The answer is that human activities are heavily managed in the park so as to avoid conflicts with carnivores.

              People (not roads) are what is required for conflicts. Thus, FS access roads are not a good metric for habitat quality for carnivores–especially if motorized access is not allowed. Roadlessness may be next to godliness where wilderness is concerned, but it ain’t required for carnivores to prosper.

          • avatar Mike says:

            ++I think the “fewer robust populations” exist only in your imagination.++

            Ma’ have you had your coffee yet today? Because she’s dead-on. For example, see this map of current grizzly populations, and previous populations:


            Or see this current and historic habitat map for wolves:



            It seems you are quick to lash out, Ma’, but often very short on actual facts.

            • avatar ma'iingan says:

              “It seems you are quick to lash out, Ma’, but often very short on actual facts.”

              You wouldn’t know a fact if it walked up and slapped you upside the head, Mike.

              Did you intend your historical range maps to dispute the fact that large carnivores are expanding their ranges?

              NRM wolves have recolonized Washington and Oregon. Grizzlies are expanding their range to the east and south. WGL wolves are dispersing into Iowa, Illinois, and Missouri. Black bear are thriving everywhere, and puma are increasingly being sighted in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan.

              Those are facts, Mikey.

          • avatar Salle says:


            I have to ask you, just how much time do you actually spend in in the NF areas out here? If you can’t see it in person you can’t really see what’s at hand… the Internet views aren’t likely to help you gain perspective on the issue here.

            Your description of “roads in this area are not in line with what I see on the ground on a regular basis. Aside from that point, you seem to ignore the evidence that MOST grizzly bear mortality takes place near roads, whether interstate and US highways or dirt tracks or “troads” as SAP calls them.


            but most telling is this study:


            Before you totally condemn others (including those who either live here or engage in extended annual visits) for their views on bear mortality causes etc., perhaps you might look into some of the evidence that is out in the public domain for possible reasons for the claims they make, sans personal bias on your part. Roads appear to be the death knell for bears whether they are paved or “abandoned” timber harvest trails. Just because they don’t appear on a map doesn’t mean they haven’t been made permanent or expanded by off-roaders, as SAP indicated. The evidence is all over the place in the Gallatin and near-by areas, and in Idaho as well, like pretty much everywhere. According to some studies I cited, years ago in some class papers, in the Targhee as I recall in one study, it was found that the majority of bear mortality took place within roaded areas and less than four Kilometers of a dirt road, abandoned, illegally made or what-have-you. The information at the links above indicate that most bear mortality, for grizzlies either in YNP or outside, are human caused and most notably near (within 2-4 Kilometers) a road of some type. Roads are elements of fragmentation of habitat.

            In addition, even though many of the NFs have been attempting to reclaim or negate, if you will, abandoned forest roads, ATVs still travel on them and remake them into “troads” In the past couple years the FS has engaged in a campaign of “rototilling” some of these illegal passageways and attempting to close them off from use to some level of success yet to be seen. Bears still have a hard time of it regardless of these efforts. Habitat lost is habitat that takes a long time to regain if it’s possible at all. Human presence isn’t such a good thing for wildlife.

            • avatar Mike says:


              I have to ask you, just how much time do you actually spend in in the NF areas out here? If you can’t see it in person you can’t really see what’s at hand… the Internet views aren’t likely to help you gain perspective on the issue here.

              Your description of “roads in this area are not in line with what I see on the ground on a regular basis. Aside from that point, you seem to ignore the evidence that MOST grizzly bear mortality takes place near roads, whether interstate and US highways or dirt tracks or “troads” as SAP calls them.++

              JB just revealed that he spends no time at all near roadless areas, along with a complete misunderstanding of how rare predators function.

              Very, very naive comments.

            • avatar elk275 says:

              Mike exactly how much time do you spend in the national forest? I am going to have dinner at my brothers cabin in the Gallatin National Forest in an hour or so.

            • avatar JB says:


              Please enlighten me…how do “rare predators” function?

        • avatar Mike says:

          Great points, Louise.

          • avatar Mark L says:

            I see your point, but please remember that ‘sightings’ are not evidence of a thriving population…or even a single female. IN fact in the case of cougars, sightings of males may actually be a sign that dispersal is NOT occurring…the males are looking more and more for even more rare females, and in places they would not normally go . Just math.

            • avatar ma'iingan says:

              Mark L. –

              Female puma do not disperse in the same in the same manner as males – “females are far more philopatric, dispersing at lower rates, and distances than males (Lopez-Gonzalez 1999, Sweanor et al. 2000, Maehr et al. 2002, Anderson et al. 2004, Thomas and Jenks 2010).” Larue et al., Cougars Are Recolonizing the Midwest: Analysis of Cougar Confirmations During 1990-2008. JWM Vol. 76,(2012).

              Puma dispersal into the WGL states is well-documented – that females are lagging is a species trait, and the establishment of breeding pairs in these areas is only a matter of time.

            • avatar Mark L says:

              i think you missed my point, and yes….I’m aware of the female distribution pattern. You used human ‘sightings’ as a basis to back your point…my point is that sightings don’t indicate a rise in population (if I see the same roaming puma weekly its not a rise in population). You are using the same hunter’s logic that others have complained about on this site…..your (or other’s) anecdotal sightings don’t establish a population increase. But you knew that…didn’t you?

            • avatar ma'iingan says:

              …”anecdotal sightings don’t establish a population increase. But you knew that…didn’t you?”

              Sure did – that’s why I used peer-reviewed research to reinforce my point. Why don’t you do some reading of your own? – you’ll see that the empirical evidence includes collected carcasses along with DNA samples from live animals, with instances increasing annually over the last decade.

              Clear scientific, not anecdotal, evidence that Black Hills puma are not only recolonizing the WGL states, they’re expanding into Nebraska and Oklahoma as well.

    • avatar JEFF E says:


    • avatar Mike says:

      Ralph –

      Thank you for at last confirming that this is a pro-hunting only site.

      Perhaps a post at the top of the forum clarifying this position is in order? I think it is owed to many of the long-standing, pro-wildlife, non-hunting folks who have championed this site and frequented its pages for years and years.

      BTW, almost all of my friends watch and photograph wildlife.

      None of them hunt. Some “graduated” from hunting to a camera.

      It is naive to think that a group who champions wiping out wolves and grizzlies across the Northern Rockies (hunters and ranchers) can somehow coexist with a group that wants to see them flourish.

      It’s like saying that anti-abortion and pro-choice groups need to just “hug it out”.

    • avatar Mike says:

      ++Having said this, I am dismayed at the reflexive anti-hunting attitude some people who comment take in post after post. I wish people who constantly “hum” this one note would take their tune somewhere else.++

      Ralph –

      How do you feel about the reflexive attitude that every species that “recovers” needs to be shot?

    • avatar Mike says:

      A very important point here, that so far has not been mentioned, is that not a single hunter’s group came forth and admonished Wyoming’s extreme plan (or Idaho’s).

      No hunter’s group said, “let’s have sensible quotas”. No hunting group said “150 wolves is cutting it awfully close in a state so big.” No hunter’s group, NOT ONE, tempered any of these radical hunting approaches by Idaho and Wyoming.

      Had that happened, had some group that represents hunters inched towards the middle, you wouldn’t be seeing this backlash. Instead, hunters and their leadership fell in line behind medieval management plans in Idaho and Wyoming.

      No pro-wolf group is going to sign onto anything regarding hunting wolves sunless someone is willing to meet them in the middle.

      Hasn’t happened yet. Instead, we’ve seen a “mad dash” to just plain taking as many wolves as possible, with no regard for science, or the views of non-hunters (IE non-consumptive users)

      The “reflexive” attitudes on display so far have been the head of Fish and Game units, and hunters and ranchers at large.

      The problem is, and always will be, that these groups practice consumptive, potentially damaging uses, while non-consumptive users do not.

      And finally, take a look around, folks.

      Where the hell have the pro-wildlife folks gone?

      This site is now a hunter’s cabal. Very, very few wildlife watchers or anti-hunters are left. We used to get these awesome wildlife sighting reports, have great discussions about them, etc.

      Instead we see posts by spokespeople for a state that wants wolves gone, with little regard for science. Instead we see hunter after hunter posting, advocating shooting wolves, or even grizzly bears.

      This site has changed big time. One could perhaps blame this on an Obama-like wish to “lets be friends”. But in this case, Obama gave the Republicans the White House, and Boenher has his feet on a chair in the Oval Office….

      The people this very sight fought against for years during wolf recovery…are now the people who make up its core.

      Amazing how life works sometimes.

      • avatar Jerry Black says:

        “A very important point here, that so far has not been mentioned, is that not a single hunter’s group came forth and admonished Wyoming’s extreme plan (or Idaho’s).

        No hunter’s group said, “let’s have sensible quotas”. No hunting group said “150 wolves is cutting it awfully close in a state so big.” No hunter’s group, NOT ONE, tempered any of these radical hunting approaches by Idaho and Wyoming.”

        Yep, and they continue to call themselves “conservationists”

        • avatar Immer Treue says:


          In my opinion, this is a comment that has great merit.

        • avatar jon says:

          Exactly, and to a lot of these people the only wolf is a dead one. Hunters and ranchers are no friends to wolves and coyotes. I am sure there are some good ranchers and hunters, but in today’s age, they are minority and the anti-wolf crowd has become the large majority.

        • avatar Louise Kane says:

          Yes Jerry thats true but what is interesting is that when you read the comments, and I have at least from Montana and Idaho many individual hunters did not want to see extended seasons, trapping, snaring and or hunting of wolves at all despite wanting to know that they wolves were being managed. So the states don’t even appear to be listening to some of the hunters just the radical extremists. And if you read the comments those are the comments that start like “you introduced all those non invasive woofs and they don’t belong here…” or of that ilk.

      • avatar Immer Treue says:


        “This site is now a hunter’s cabal. Very, very few wildlife watchers or anti-hunters are left. We used to get these awesome wildlife sighting reports, have great discussions about them, etc.

        Instead we see posts by spokespeople for a state that wants wolves gone, with little regard for science. Instead we see hunter after hunter posting, advocating shooting wolves, or even grizzly bears.”

        Self immolation.

        • avatar jon says:

          Immer, I assume you have been following the wolf issue for quite a while. I haven’t been following it as long as you, but I’ve come to the conclusion that non-hunters and hunters will never get along. I’ve also come to realize that the most hostile people and the ones that support the eradication and the illegal killing of wolves are mostly hunters/ranchers. With these types of attitudes that these people have, it is understandable to me that these non-hunting conservationists are no fan of the hunters and the ranchers who are anti-wolf. You are never going to change the attitudes that hunters and ranchers have and you will never change the attitudes of the non-hunting conservationists. The hunters in Idaho has gone on record saying they don’t want non-consumptive users a seat at the table. The hunters want to be the only ones “managing” wildlife in Idaho. As sad as this is to say, this is a cultural war.

          • avatar Immer Treue says:

            “, but I’ve come to the conclusion that non-hunters and hunters will never get along. ”

            Jon, this is false!

            In terms of who wants wolf seasons, you are beating a dead horse. Sure ranchers want wolves hunted. And hunters want them hunted for one or both of two reasons, they don’t like the competition for game or want the trophy.

            • avatar Immer Treue says:

              Perhaps throw another group o hunters in there who sincerely believe they are being given the opportunity to manage all wildlife, including wolves.

          • avatar TC says:

            While you’ve been “following the wolf issue” for quite a while, hundreds of members of the evil axis (hunters, ranchers, farmers, energy industry biologists and executives, etc.) have been accomplishing habitat and wildlife conservation projects and contributing to what you claim to love – wildlife and wild places. How? By not being spoiled ignorant children, but by realizing that there are common goods and there are ways to collaborate with people that do not always share your cultural or core beliefs. By being adults. By being educated about specific projects, ideas, and agendas, and realizing they are in their best interests. At the behest of jaded, tired, overworked, overcommitted, underpaid, and frequently pissed off professionals that work for federal and state agencies, NGOs, associations and societies, and in academia.

            Get over yourselves, you and Mike. Stop being so GD ignorant and making statements like “all ranchers and hunters” or “all” ANYONE. Put up or shut up – where’s your list of wildlife or habitat achievements? What have you done for wildlife lately? I just finished a deal with a rancher (egads) to support and train two graduate students in wildlife disease studies – to work on applied projects that will benefit wildlife and produce two new professionals in this field. I suppose I should have told him to feck off because he’s a rancher? And told him to take his conservation easements and shove ’em? And told him to stop his riparian corridor reclamation project, because he’s a member of the axis of evil and it doesn’t matter? He’s done more for wildlife in a week than you’ve accomplished in your lifetime. Deal with it.

            • avatar JB says:

              Well said, T.C. Things get done when people put aside the ideological crap and start working from what they have in common. And despite what some will claim, it does not require compromising one’s principles; rather, it simply requires people to find common ground–things we can agree upon that will result in better conditions for us all (and/or for wildlife). This is how conservation started–with an alliance between a new generation of “sport” hunters and the first generation of preservationists.

              The “all-or-nothing” approach that some consistently advocate actually gets in the way of pragmatic conservation. Mike, for example, is so hell-bent on hating hunters and getting in their way, he can’t see that they’re the best ally he has in conserving wildlife.

            • avatar Mike says:

              TC –

              I’m not really interested in getting into a dick-waving contest.

              However, I will say this: I belong to about 15 conservation and animal rights groups and donate regularly. One of the business I own donates 30% of all proceeds to conservation organizations, and promotes responsible use of public land.

              And some of my projects are at your local book store, and all of them have to do with animals and the outdoors.

              My job, 24/7, is wildlife and public lands. It is what I do, and it is what I will always do.

      • avatar Rancher Bob says:

        Bolt cutter Mike
        Your against hunting period.. So where would the middle be that hunters should inch towards. Why give in to the likes of you, you have no middle ground.

        • avatar Mike says:

          Bob –

          Yes I don’t like most hunting. But I would have been more sympathetic to hunters and wildlife “managers” in these states had any of them made reasonable approaches to the majority (IE non-consumptive users).

          When wolves first became delisted and hunted (although I don’t care for hunting) I expected rifle seasons with strict tag limits based on science and the continuation of the species. Instead, we got a “shoot on site” kill zone and no bag limits, and sloppy trapping where the wolves suffer.

        • avatar jon says:

          All hunting Bob or certain forms of hunting? Most hunting is what Mike is against and although I don’t want to speak for him, I assume he is talking about snaring, baiting, trapping, hunting predators for “sport”, etc. If Americans were polled, I bet a lot of them would be against these “forms” of hunting. The word conservationist does come to mind when you see hunters smiling while standing over dead wolves and coyotes they just killed either by hunting or trapping/snaring.

      • avatar Barb Rupers says:

        You have made some good points here – thanks for your perspective and speaking out in the face of a lot of criticism.

        It seems to me that you have a valid point in regards to core wilderness areas including the Boundary Canoe Waters in Minnesota, Bob Marshal-Great Bear-Glacier NP in Montana, Greater Yellowstone ecosystem and the central Idaho wilderness including the Frank Church and Bitterroot-Selway. Without these core areas I doubt that the residual population in Minnesota could have expanded into Michigan’s upper penninsula and then into Wisconsin after the ESA was passed or that reintroduction in the Northern Rocky Mountains would have been attempted.

        Your last comment concerning the silence of hunting organizations and their acceptance of the barbaric plans for taking wolves in the NRM is particularly revealing of their attitudes.

  23. avatar Nancy says:

    My, how things have changed since 1995:

    “More on Idaho’s refusal to allows ID F&G to participate in wolf management


    Idaho State Senator Laird Noh (produnced Nay), a large sheepman himself, pleaded with the legislature to enter into an agreement, but the majority view was that they hated what the wolf lovers and government had done so much Idaho wouldn’t participate.
    There was also expressed the belief that the endangered species act would be repealed soon and then they could take care of the wolves.

    The newspapers I read also hinted that some thought they could take care of the Nez Perce Indians too”

    From the 1995 archives:

    Okay everybody….. if you can remember the tune, lets all sing or “hum” along:

    “You know the more things change the more they stay the same
    The same sunrise, it’s just another day
    If you hang in long enough they say you’re comin’ back
    Just take a look, we’re living proof and baby that’s a fact
    You know the more things change the more they stay the same
    Never and forever just keep comin’ back again
    Don’t hold out for tomorrow or hold onto yesterday
    The more things change the more they stay the same”

  24. avatar Immer Treue says:

    A bit more from mn

    The telling part of the article: The agency (DNR) developed the wolf hunting and trapping season using data and research…

    In addition to receiving public input(80% probably not all from MN against the hunt)on the season the DNR received strong direction from the MN legislature ( at least a portion of the reason the season was extended to the end of January)…

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      same old story used data and research and need to kill wolves blah blah blah

      • avatar Kathleen says:

        Yes, I wonder too if the “data and research” revealed that animals caught in traps don’t suffer or experience terror…maybe that animals don’t feel pain, or, if they do, they don’t experience it the way *humans* do blah blah blah

        Or, more likely, animal pain and suffering just doesn’t matter.

        • avatar Immer Treue says:

          Last year I had a white tail fawn get itself caught (trapped) within a small fenced in garden enclosure. Late July, so the fawn had some size to it. It just could not find the opening, and in pure terror, as I tried to shepherd it(from outside the enclosure) toward the opening it would EXPLOSIVELY launch itself toward the opposite side, crashing into the fence, only to get up and repeat the process again and again. It finally found its way out, but TERROR, you betcha!

  25. avatar Immer Treue says:

    Colorado wolf debate heads to court.

    Which side of the pros and cons holds the most H2O?

    • avatar WM says:


      The news article does not disclose the legal issues on appeal, but I gather from the cryptic reference there this is largely about alleged procedural deficiencies of RMNP officials documenting how it reached its decision not to reintroduce wolves into the Park. The 10th Circuit Court of Appeals, which will hear the case, is a highly respected federal appellate court.

      And, of course, there is WildEarth Guardians keeping wolves in the headlines, once again. Query whether putting wolves in the Park (much smaller than Yellowstone) to replace selective removal of a few elk that make their way into the town Estes Park solves that problem, or creates (?) yet another that Colorado Div. of Wildlife and the livestock industry does not want to create by getting its very own wolves. The query is punctuated by sixteen years of watching wolf reintroduction tensions play out for the NRM states to the north.

      Even without knowing the issues, the best WG could hope for is sending NPS/RMNP back to the drawing board to rewrite a report more fully detailing why the didn’t want to reintroduce wolves, with consultation of FWS and the state of CO.

      • avatar Immer Treue says:


        Nothing cryptic intended. It’s more than obvious to most, you and JB in particular who I feel understand what I attempt to say, that I am pro-wolf. Yeah, there exists plenty of habitat for wolves in Colorado, but how long before wolves get in trouble for just being, wolves.
        That’s what I mean by which holds more H2O.
        No disparaging feelings in your direction, but as a pro wolf individual who understands the “baggage” that accompanies wolves, I feel as though I am caught between a rock and a hard place, which we have plenty of in N MN.

      • avatar Louise Kane says:

        WM you wrote… Query whether putting wolves in the Park (much smaller than Yellowstone) to replace selective removal of a few elk that make their way into the town Estes Park solves that problem, or creates (?) yet another that Colorado Div. of Wildlife and the livestock industry does not want to create by getting its very own wolves.

        do you suggest that the livestock industry and the Colorado Div of wildlife are the policy makers here?

        • avatar WM says:


          The elk herd in RMNP is small (600-800 head), as is the suitable elk habitat in this small national park. Most of RMNP is simply not good elk habitat because much of the park is above timberline or denuded avalanche paths, with only aspen colonies in the alluvial fans at the bases of the slopes. Wolves, I am told, would likely drive even more elk into the safety of the town of Estes Park, a small tourist town at the east edge of the park entrance. A similar phenomenon exists in Banff Provincial park in Canada.

          So, the thinking was, there was no support by locals or agencies (FS and BLM land at lower elevations outside the park, along with private lands on which folks have mostly cattle and horses).

          There couldn’t be an isolated population just “a few” RMNP wolves – that would mean the same sort of genetic issues with a minimum viable population that has been a hot issue for the NRM – this isn’t about just a few wolves to trim the population of elk within RMNP. It’s a significant undertaking just like the NRM,unless some of those wolves in the dead zone from WY would make it through the gauntlet to CO.

          WildEarth Guardians is chipping away at the edges of the bigger issue.

          And, yeah, the livestock industry and CO Div. of Wildlife have alot of policy say, and of course its federal Congressional delegation, who I have suggested has been keeping a low profile on wolves – even Sen. Mark Udall.

          And, you can bet these guys are all watching what is playing out in NE WA, OR and the NRM right now.

          And, this reference to the Chicago Tribune article you cite below, shows precisely that a editorial board does not understand the larger issue.

          • avatar Louise Kane says:

            WM I’m digesting your response and will be looking at the issues you raised further. Thanks for your thoughts. Still not seeing though why the livestock industry should have any greater say then the rest of the public. It would also be helpful to see what local people, non ranching community, feel about it. A cousin who lives in that area says most everyone he knows is in support of native predators and of using them to manage game ….

            • avatar Louise Kane says:

              of course his information is highly anecdotal

            • avatar Salle says:

              You gotta wonder about this mindset of those who fear indigenous predators and keep domestic livestock in the places where there are large predators.

              Why the hell did they go there in the first place? If there is a concern about keeping livestock on the interface of “wild” lands, then be vigilant about protecting your livestock within the boundaries of your property… and don’t expect that the same protection would apply on public lands where wildlife exists. I really drives me nuts when people expect that god and the government are expected to protect your property and violate/alter the landscape for your pleasure. It’s very much like the desert dwellers expecting god and the government to make the desert a fully hydrated paradise just because they moved there.

            • avatar Salle says:

              It really drives me nuts…

  26. avatar Rancher Bob says:

    Sounds like a line in a joke. How many wolves do you put in a 415 square mile park and how long will they stay there?
    first answer: as many as you want, that depends on how fast they’re running.
    At this point I feel give every state 70 or so wolves.

  27. avatar Salle says:

    Looks like SLAPP suits are on the rise again…

    Shell Sues to Ban Public Protest Against Arctic Drilling
    Hefty fine aimed at Greenpeace for Arctic actions

    Oh, and this was in some news feeds yesterday…

    Brits Decry ‘Reckless Rush’ to Drill in Arctic Waters
    House of Commons Calls for Moratorium Until Stronger Safeguards Are in Place

  28. avatar Salle says:

    “…a season on wolves “may” serve as a pressure relief valve for those who don’t care for wolves…”

    This thinking is equivalent to acquiescence to a bunch of screaming children engaged in a protracted program of throwing loud temper tantrums to get what they want, screaming loud enough to drown any voice of reason on whatever issue is at had… because it has always worked for them. Such positive reinforcement of this kind of bad behavior only ensures that it will continue to happen until adults come along and, as my mother did, take them by the earlobe and – theoretically – put them in a room and tell them to shut up, calm down, and that they will remain there until they can act in a civil manner with other people to resolve the problem… (I certainly learned early on that temper tantrums are a waste of time and energy and serve no purpose other than to exhibit a form of bad behavior that only result in negative endings.) Nobody will get entirely what they want, but that’s how democracy works. The no compromise mindset will only perpetuate the temper tantrums and other bad behavior.

    I see this temper tantrum set of tactics not only happening with regard to the localized, or regional, wolf issues but also with regard to the Congress behaving in much the same manner with regard to social issues that are designed to bring about the betterment of the majority of the population of the country and in some cases the entire planet. Look at what they have been doing just this past week since returning from their summer vacation. They-the House in particular-have essentially thrown gas on an open flame and now plan to go home until after the election when, like the raging wildfires in the west, most of the forest will have already burned down along with much of our social fabric that they have been slicing apart at the seams. Sorry about the mixed metaphors but they do illustrate my point, for those who read carefully.

    We can’t go forth as a democracy unless we can act in a more mature fashion in working out differences among us.

    For those who find my comments infuriating, I suggest you go sit quietly and meditate on what I said for a spell before responding.

    • avatar Rancher Bob says:

      Great comment, both sides of the wolf issue have their unhappy children.

      • avatar Salle says:

        Thanks, I meditated on it for a couple days.

        • avatar SAP says:

          Good stuff, Salle!

          Reason versus aggression. Your mom put you in time-out instead of walloping you because, seriously, what kind of lesson is that? If you’re big enough and/or aggressive enough, you, too will get your way?

          Aggression certainly “works,” at least for a little while (going to go back and re-read Konrad Lorenz’s “On Aggression”). But, as you so eloquently describe it, it short-circuits reason.

          I see a lot of people (especially in this election season) so ready to resort to aggression, and to justify it by claiming to feel threatened or scared. So much of this is a cynical affectation, especially by the manipulators in the media. Many of the manipulated ARE genuinely fearful now, and — as the new brain science tells us — are processing stimuli through their amygdala instead of the prefrontal cortex. The amygdala is good at keeping you from getting eaten by a tiger: mostly binary, fight or flight, shoot-first-ask-questions-later. Prefrontal cortex is all about ask-questions-first, big-picture, long-term consequences kind of stuff.

          Keep people in amygdala mode and they won’t be capable of thinking about what kind of society they prefer, just how to get away from that tiger. Eventually, all that cortisol will corrode their brain and ruin their health. And the manipulators will convince them to blame somebody else for those problems.

    • avatar Immer Treue says:


      Doesn’t take a whole lot of thought to see wisdom in your statement. Yet, hopefully if the MN plan goes through, which I hope in it’s current form it does not, some of the steam will also be taken out of the sails of the anti-wolf folks up here, and politicians as well.

      As a little aside, and analogy, with Obamas comment about not being able to fix Washington from the inside, the Republicans put a spin on it, yet isn’t that what the Tea Party is all about.

      Different times we are in than when wolves were largely exterminated. In my minds eye, we won’t see that happen again. Too much communication, too many advocacy groups. In a sense, wolves have a legion of tea party-like groups working for them. But it will take a long time to rid the mindset that prompted your thoughtful response.

      • avatar Salle says:


        What it does require is a mediator who can give all the screamers a time out and when they can calm down and communicate sans the finger-pointing, name-calling and cheap shots make a list of “wants” and work it out from there. It has come to analogies of childish behavior, seemingly borne of frustration and angst. Adult or mature interaction is what it takes to steer a democracy, it seems we have lost the ability to remember that part at present. Instead, a paradigm of scorched earth tactics seems to be the only tool anyone can locate in the toolbox anymore, and that will never do for anyone, human, flora or fauna.

        On all levels, I guess the mantra could be, chill out before acting out, especially with regard to legislative actions that effect us all.

        • avatar Immer Treue says:


          Therefore WI, and to a lesser degree Mn in their rush to hunt post delisting, have opened the door for litigation. Might it have happened even with a waiting period post delist, perhaps. But it is more then obvious haste was involved to appease.

  29. avatar Salle says:

    Idaho Wildfires Head Toward Radioactive Sites
    The wildfires that have ravaged Idaho for over a month are now bringing new fears as the fires have burned through three radioactive mining sites and are heading towards a fourth

  30. avatar MAD says:

    typical, but not unexpected

    “Alaska game officials reject wolf protection zone around Denali”,0,1112962.story

    • avatar Nancy says:

      “In their definition of ‘emergency,’ every last wolf in Denali National Park could be wiped out, and still would not constitute an emergency to the state wolf population,” Steiner said in an email to the Los Angeles Times.

      ******* The state’s Neanderthal policy on wildlife management is moving closer and closer toward anyone can kill anything, anywhere, anytime, and with any method they so please.******

      Just me? Or does that have a familiar “ring” to it? Like in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming?

  31. avatar Mike says:

    just got this from the Center for Biological Diversity. It looks like goons in the Senate are trying to pass a bill that will ban the EPA from regulating toxic lead ammunition, and prevent 20 million unnecessary wildlife deaths a year.

    Dear XX,

    We just learned that the Senate has scheduled a last-minute vote on a bill that would prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from protecting wildlife and people from toxic lead ammunition and fishing tackle.

    Bald eagles, endangered California condors and dozens of other species fall prey to toxic lead poisoning by the millions, and we need to act now to prevent their needless deaths from becoming enshrined in law.

    The bill ignores the mountain of scientific evidence that lead ammunition and fishing tackle poison at least 130 animal species. It’s being pushed by powerful gun-lobby groups like the National Rifle Association, and it writes off the health of low-income venison donation beneficiaries and 10 million hunters and their families who will remain at risk of lead exposure.

    More than 150 organizations in 38 states have called on the EPA to regulate toxic lead in ammunition and fishing gear under the Toxic Substances Control Act.

    Take action before Monday and help us stop this last-minute gambit by contacting your senators — ask them to oppose this deadly legislation.

    Make sure you call on this one! The suffering of great birds like the bald eagle is horrifying:

    rock n’ roll on this one, folks. Very important.

    Hunters put 3,000 tons of toxic lead into the earth each year, and cause the unnecessary death of 20 million birds annually.

    • avatar timz says:

      I’m sure Obummer had his pen ready to sign it into law as someone promised him an extra vote.

      • avatar timz says:

        Unless those enviromentally conscious democrats in the Senate put a stop to it like they did the wolf rider. Oops, I forgot they helped pass it.

    • avatar Ralph Maughan says:

      The Senate did not take up the bill. Instead it adjourned, much to displeasure of Republicans and Blue Dog jackasses like Democrat Joe Manchin of West Virginia.

    • avatar Dude, the bagman says:


      Lead ammunition is already exempted from regulation under TSCA § 3(2)(B)(4). That section exempts articles subject to taxation under IR Code § 4181. IR Code § 4181 imposes a tax on guns and ammo.

      As used in this Act:
      (2)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), the term ‘‘chemical
      substance’’ means any organic or inorganic substance of a particular
      molecular identity, including. . .
      (B) Such term does not include . . .
      (v) any article the sale of which is subject to the tax imposed
      by section 4181 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 . . .”

      Ҥ4181. Imposition of tax

      There is hereby imposed upon the sale by the manufacturer, producer, or importer of the following articles a tax equivalent to the specified percent of the price for which so sold:
      Articles taxable at 10 percent—
      Articles taxable at 11 percent—
      Firearms (other than pistols and revolvers).
      Shells, and cartridges.”

      So…I’m not really sure why this bill was introduced. Maybe it’s just more symbolic harumphing to appease an already lead-poisoned constituency. Although there is a self-contradictory passage of legislative history that suggests that EPA may have authority to regulate lead in ammo, this is not the actual legal language. Further, that passage itself states that the exemption is clear on its face. Read it for yourself –

      “Although the language of the bill is clear on its face as to the exemption for pistols, revolvers, firearms, shells, and cartridges, the Committee wishes to emphasize that it does not intend that the legislation be used as a vehicle for gun control. Consequently the Administrator has no authority to regulate ammunition as an unreasonable risk because it injures people when fired from a gun. However, the Committee does not exclude from regulation under the bill chemical components of ammunition which could be hazardous because of their chemical properties.”
      H. Rep. No. 94-1341, at 10 (1976)

      It seems pretty obvious that the ammunition exemption was created specifically to allow lead ammo. It makes no sense to exempt ammo as a regulated chemical substance, then say (outside the law) that ammo can be regulated for its chemical properties if it’s a hazardous chemical substance. If ammunition wasn’t known to be made of a hazardous chemical substance to begin with, the exemption would be totally unnecessary.

      • avatar Salle says:

        I wonder if this could be a prelude to the allowance of DU in domestic ammo…? It’s used in military munitions, maybe they are getting ready to allow its use here…? If lead’s okay then… Just wondering. It’s hard to determine what these guys mean sometimes, by use of such language, especially if you weren’t privy to committee minutes and transcripts, since we can’t actually be there.

        • avatar Dude, the bagman says:

          Ha. Yeah, you need DU ammo to defeat today’s modern armored elk.

          To me, the last passage seems to mean that the law means what it says. Ammmo is not to be regulated because we’re worried about gun control, and we don’t want the toxic substances that go into ammo to be regulated because that would be gun control. Except that you can regulate it as a substance, not as ammunition. Except that the law clearly states that you can’t. Wait…what are we talking about?

  32. avatar Louise Kane says:

    The content of a petiton sponsored by Lobowatch and others. Crazy, dangerous hateful people they are…

    The Petition


    Newborn horse colt killed by Luna pack Mexican wolves. One of many depredations ignored by FWS.

    The Mexican wolf is a non-native, hybrid captive bred animal. The
    population has shown increased habituation behavior and does not have
    the natural wariness of man that wildlife naturally posses.

    Due to
    its listing as a species of gray wolf under the 10 J section of the
    Endangered Species act, we do not believe this wolf is still considered
    endangered under the the Endangered Species Act we believe it is
    technically subject to control measures authorized under the 10J rule.
    Control measures that the US Fish and Wildlife service have chosen to
    cease implementing.

    These animals have been released and remain
    un-managed in clear violation of the 10J and the 1998 final rule for the
    sole purpose of implementing societal change which is illegal under the
    Endangered Species Act.

    Our task and purpose as rural Americans is to expose the Mexican wolf recovery agenda
    what it is and in addition, ensure that problem wolves are subject to
    the proper wildlife management to ensure the health safety and well
    being of the citizens of the rural Southwest.

    We the undersigned, insist that ranchers and others impacted by wolf damage be compensated for property loss attributed to wolves.

    the undersigned, demand that the United States Fish and Wildlife
    Service (USFWS) cease further releases of the Mexican gray wolf into New
    Mexico and Arizona and consider no plans to release these animals into
    Texas, Utah, and Colorado.

    We the undersigned demand that wolves
    that are in the presence of rural children, or are defined under the
    1998 10J Rule as problem wolves be removed or lethally controlled.
    the undersigned insist that the 98 Mexican wolf final Rule criteria are
    upheld to the fullest extent possible in order to protect ranchers and
    other involved parties from the damage these wolves have and continue to
    cause. This effort includes our support for permanent or lethal removal
    of livestock depredating wolves in accordance with the 1998 final Rule.

    Should the wolf population fail to flourish under these legal
    requirements, We demand the program be terminated as required by the
    1998 10-J rule. The Endangered Species Act requires only implementing
    programs that are practicable not those that continually damage small
    rural communities and fail year after year to sustain themselves.

    Sign petition

  33. avatar Louise Kane says:

    a series of images for trap free NM public lands
    and of trapped wildlife and the real face of this disgusting “pastime/sport”.

  34. avatar Louise Kane says:
    HR3432 retire grazing lands / revitalization act

  35. avatar Salle says:

    Schmidt said an archery elk hunting season is open in the area, with many archery hunters taking part. He said the elk that the five hunters were retrieving had likely been killed by an archery hunter.

    He said it appeared the hunters fired at the bear with a shotgun and several handguns, but no rifle. He said he didn’t have details on the size of the bear.

    “I think the situation is they had an elk that was down, and they probably gathered a few guys to go in and help bring it out,” he said.

    Okay, a few things that I see need some attention.

    A) It’s the time of year when bears are looking for all nutrient dense food they can find and we have people out killing things they consider nutrient dense food. In a year where, in most places, food has been pretty scarce for most wildlife is it too hard to consider that this might be a common occurrence and that there might be some adjustments made on behalf of the wildlife for once?

    B) So these guys just start blasting away at a bear that is attempting to claim the dead elk instead of backing off or using pepper spray (but they should have left the scene instead of initiating a melee on the bear.)

    C) Why is it that they expect the bear to give them right of way to something that has been lying there dead and unattended for however long? In the “bears’ book of rules, it’s finders keepers when it comes to a big dead elk lying there waiting to be eaten.


    I wonder when wildlife “managers” will come to realize that just because people want to go hunting for a specific species that all the other species will not automatically comply with what they want and expect, like those who expect that predators, in particular, should automatically fear humans or suffer death for not living up to the expectations of the humans.

    I suggest that in such circumstances as this, where bears or other predator(s), come along in the absence of the hunter and claim the killed animal, the hunters should give deference to the predator and the human can go find another elk or whatever. If you need to get another tag, go get one… the F&G should consider such events and allow for such adjustments. Even if the hunter doesn’t get another elk or whatever, they would have a good hunting story to tell. My rationale tells me that this would be a reasonable component of the concept of “fair game”. Common sense, folks. When you go fishing and some bigger fish comes up and eats the fish on your line do you just whip out the guns and start blasting away? Or if flyfishing and an Osprey or Eagle comes up and grabs the fish on your line, even for C&R, do you just whip it out and start blasting? Honestly.

  36. avatar Savebears says:

    Sorry if this has been posted, I did find it interesting in light of some of the conversations as of late.

  37. avatar JEFF E says:

    some things to ponder when you fire up the ol’ computer|utmccn=(direct)|utmcmd=(none)&__utmv=14933801.|8=Earned%20By=msnbc%7Ccover=1^12=Landing%20Content=Mixed=1^^30=Visit%20Type%20to%20Content=Earned%20to%20Mixed=1&__utmk=87611800

  38. avatar Salle says:

    Editorial: Where the cows and the sage grouse roam
    Agreements between the government and landowners will benefit those who own the land while also protecting endangered species.
    Read The Denver Post’s Terms of Use of its content:

  39. avatar Salle says:

    Sportsmen’s bill passes Senate test

    The House had passed a similar bill in April that was co-sponsored by Rep. Denny Rehberg, Tester’s Republican opponent in the Montana Senate race. In the end, Tester would get only a test vote as the Senate, yet again, punted another issue until after the election.

    Tester’s bill combines 19 measures favorable to outdoorsmen. In addition to dealing with the polar bear hides, it would allow more hunting and fishing on federal lands, let bow hunters cross federal land where hunting isn’t allowed, encourage federal land agencies to cooperate with state and local authorities to maintain shooting ranges, exclude ammunition and tackle from federal environmental laws that regulate lead, boost fish populations and protect animal habitat.


    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      You would think that these types of things are the only issues on the table – wolves, polar bear hides, sportsmens hunting and fishing, making sure we pollute the land and water by not restricting lead. We’ve got the economy, jobs, health care, Wall Street reform, etc etc. Damn right this should be kicked down in favor of more important issues for another time, like to the bottom of the list or out all together.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      Oh god is this yet another version of the sportsman heritage act

    • avatar JEFF E says:

      I would encourage to actually read the bill instead of a newspaper article “about” the bill.

      Regardless of one’s stance we would all be better off if the discussions were based on actual content rather than hyperbole.

      For example when ever this topic comes up, “polar bear hides” are always mentioned, but the rest of the story is that the “hides” referred to are all pre 2008, when the ban on importation was enacted, and the 40 or so hides that are actually in question are caught in limbo because of the timing of the law.

      Point is, we should all do our utmost to come to the table with the full range of facts on a given subject even if all the facts do not support our belief system and (((then))) debate our point.

      After all, not every one is from the windy city and should not let the discourse sink to that level.

        • avatar JEFF E says:

          I could not get your link to come up.

          Here is another.

          the polar bear section is Tital III.

          • avatar Salle says:

            Thanks, Jeff E. That’s a better format too. More reader friendly.

            • avatar JEFF E says:

              Thank you Salle.
              I always enjoy my conversations with you

            • avatar Salle says:

              Ditto, Jeff E.

              I am glad you had that site at hand. I usually go for the legalese sites first because they have the text and other legal references that I am used to… but they can be a real turn-off for a lot of people whose eyes glaze at the sight of that kind of format, which can be daunting.

              As I said elsewhere, info-sharing is important. No single person can know it all and I’m glad when there’s someone else there to offer up stuff I haven’t stumbled onto yet.

              But I still don’t like several things about this Bill… 😉 I’ll elaborate when I’ve had a chance to read the whole thing and digest it all.

            • avatar JEFF E says:

              there are things I do not like about this bill also.
              for example “who are the owners of these ~40 polar bear hides” that they have such influence over a member(s) of congress that a specific passage of a bill is written to benefit them, valid or not.

      • avatar Ida Lupine says:

        I don’t know about you, but I read the bill the first time around.

        I agree, we shouldn’t let the level of discourse sink to thinly-veiled insults or assumptions. Thanks in advance! 😉

  40. avatar Virginia says:

    I guess I have been unaware for the past several years of reading and participating in this blog that this is a hunting blog, not a wildlife news blog. My mistake, and as an anti-hunting person, I will take my leave.

    • avatar Savebears says:

      Good bye Virginia, sorry to see you go, your contributions have been good over the years, but you are going to have to understand, when talk of wildlife comes up, it is going to include both sides.

    • avatar Nancy says:

      Virginia – I wouldn’t call it quits just yet. I’ve certainly noticed in the past few months, many new posters weighing in with their comments/concerns regarding the treatment of wildlife and their habitat.

    • avatar mikepost says:

      The beauty of this blog is that it does attract the entire spectrum of view points. Once you get passed the few blowhards and the ego-centrics, more often than not there is a good presentation of opposing view points. Thats what quality debating is all about. Thats how you hopefully can impact someone’s thoughts who is on the “other side” of an issue.

      Virginia, if your view of worthwhile social discourse is to only hang out with people who agree with you, then you wont be happy here. Unfortunately, you wont be as well educated in the ways of the world and how to affect change either.

      • avatar Nancy says:

        “Thats what quality debating is all about. Thats how you hopefully can impact someone’s thoughts who is on the “other side” of an issue”


  41. avatar Ida Lupine says:

    It is disturbing – but I can see that hunters feel threatened that their hunting rights could be taken away by wildlife advocates and so would rather side with the poachers than the wildlife advocates for this very reason. It is so not true. Personally, I would just like to see our wild places remain that way, with all of our unique critters, I’m not against hunting unless it is done in a perverse way. I know that predators prey – but I see no difference in how we raise cattle and other animals to be slaughtered, calves and lambs also. We do the same thing. even have taken it to a next level. It’s nature. We don’t get wolves anymore where I live – every now and then (too rarely) you’ll hear of an animal being shot that a hunter thought “was a coyote” who may have dispersed from Canada. It’s the same thing here – shoot them.

    You may wonder why I visit this blog – as an Easterner, I had always wanted to vist, and when I did I fell in love with the place. My husband lived in Idaho for a time too. When I first visited, I remember vividly the air being so clean, upon returning to an East Coast airport I thought I might nearly gag from all the smog. You don’t want to lose that! 🙂

  42. avatar Salle says:

    Prop. 120 would give AZ ‘control’ of US lands
    If passed, measure would be symbolic, with little real effect

  43. avatar Salle says:

    Bears are busy in town

    A GIS map that shows the locations of Teton County’s high-priority bear zones is available at

    • avatar Nancy says:

      Interesting and informative read Salle, thanks for posting it.

      • avatar Salle says:


        It’s quite a problem everywhere, it seems. Listening to PSAs on the Rexberg, ID radio station (what I can get from here unless I want to listen to West Yellowstone’s not-much-for-info local station) they were announcing that cave tours in the eastern ID area required some pretty definitive restrictions to cave visitors. They asked that you to not bring in anything that you had from one cave to another and I think they even wanted you to change shoes between caves.

        It makes sense, nobody has pinpointed the cause of this epidemic. This approach is novel and I hope it does something positive but I suspect that it’s only going to prove to be a small, temporary solution if anything. Maybe these bats are getting the spores from old, rotting wood in places they frequent… or maybe from something the insects are carrying after being in the presence of GMO crops…? Hard to say, and until unfettered research is allowed to investigate modern ag practices without recourse from ag product manufacturers, nobody’s probably going to have a chance to find out before it’s too late… that would be when all the bats are gone.

        • avatar aves says:

          The most common theory is that the fungus was initially brought over from Europe on someone’s clothes or shoes and then spread amongst caves by spelunkers and the poor bats themselves. It’s devastating effect and continual expansion is similar to the chytrid fungus wiping out frogs after being brought from Asia or Africa into new environments. Yet another ecological catastrophe with our fingerprints all over it.

          Interestingly, the endangered Virginia big-eared bat has not been found to get WNS despite roosting in the same caves where other species have been found to be infected. It’s thought that the Virginia big-eared bats roost in a deeper part of the caves which is too cold for the fungus to survive and/or that they are a more ancient species that may have been exposed to WNS sometime before and developed a resistance. Unfortunately, other endangered bats and once common bats are being decimated.

          • avatar Nancy says:

            aves – sent Salle’s article to a friend in NY.

            His response:

            Thanks, I have been following this for years. Most upstate NY bats have been effected and are dead. I sent it out. Hopefully they will recover they are nesting in smaller groups

  44. avatar Louise Kane says:

    Jon Way wondering if you have seen this article and if you noted monogamous relationships in the coyotes you studied. Also wondering if severe and sustained hunting pressure has led to changes in their fecundity, the size of litters, age of sexual maturation etc. One of the effects of overfishing is believed to be that the age and size of fish at maturation has been altered. There is evidence that some ground fish now reproduce earlier and are smaller at reproduction.

  45. avatar Salle says:

    Lest we forget…

    Rachel Carson and the birth of modern environmentalism

    “The ‘control of nature’ is a phrase conceived in arrogance,
    born of the Neanderthal age of biology.”

    ― Rachel Carson,0

  46. avatar Louise Kane says:

    not exactly wildlife news but interesting in the context that agribusiness impacts wildlife, and human and environmental health. a big double standard in the whitehouse and for our presidential candidates and presidents. I hated seeing Michele Obama talk about growing an organic garden whilst hubby was doing nothing to actively promoting a new generation of GMO foods. Not just Obama either, apparently Clinton, Bush administrations also.

  47. avatar Louise Kane says:

    oops doing nothing but

  48. avatar Louise Kane says:

    Breaking news. Natural Resource Board DENIED DNR’s request to move forward on emergency rules for the use of dogs to hunt wolves.

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      Thank you!

    • avatar ma'iingan says:

      Don’t interpret this as a victory for the opponents of hound hunting. This vote by the NRB means that they don’t feel additional rules restricting the use of dogs are necessary at this time.

      WDNR will now approach the presiding judge and claim that the NRB considered the establishment of rules and restrictions and felt that hounds would not be endangered under the current rules.

      Only one NRB member had the backbone to dissent, so it’s quite possible that the judge will lift the injunction and allow the use of hounds to proceed.

  49. avatar Louise Kane says:

    From Howling for Wolves – Rally info

    We wanted to send you an important update about a time change for our rally this Saturday morning, September 29 in Minneapolis.

    The new rally time is 1-3 pm, same location.

    Location: Minneapolis at 1st Avenue N and 5th Street N. Click here for a map.
    Time: 1-3 pm
    Date: Saturday, September 29th

    To get our message in front of the largest possible group the rally time needed to be moved to better coincide with a schedule change for the Twins game that afternoon.

    See you Saturday!

    Keep howling,

    Howling for Wolves
    Follow Us on Twitter
    Like Us on Facebook

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      Thanks for sharing Aves
      Its amazing that coyotes are allowed to be killed in areas where red wolves live and then to think of expanding that area. Its beyond comprehension, really

      • avatar ma'iingan says:

        “Its amazing that coyotes are allowed to be killed in areas where red wolves live…”

        Cross-breeding with coyotes has been one of the major obstacles to red wolf recovery. What action would you recommend to reduce the occurrence?

        • avatar Louise Kane says:

          Ma from the article I posted.
          “Between 1987 and 2003, a total of twenty–eight red wolves were killed. From 2004 to the end of 2011, fif­ty–two were shot. The situation has become so serious that Rabon has ended the “Track the Pack” section of the project’s quarterly report that listed the wolves’ loca­tions. That space now says that “the U.S. Fish and Wild­life Service is investigating the suspected illegal take of several red wolves found dead in the [five-county] Red Wolf Recovery Area. . . . The red wolf is protected under the U.S. Endangered Species Act. The maximum criminal penalties for the unlawful taking of a red wolf are one year imprisonment and $100,000 fine.”

          Most shootings happen during hunting season, when the sportsmen who are out and about may mistake a wolf for a coyote. In fact, however, in North Carolina it’s le­gal to kill a coyote during daylight hours at any time of year, so the hazard of mistaken identity is not confined to autumn. And now there’s a proposal to expand coy­ote hunting to nighttime hours, when distinguishing the two canids is even more difficult. Although other states allow coyote hunting after dark, they don’t have an endangered red wolf population in the same area, observes Hutt.”

          clearly hybridiization is not the only threat to red wolves, overzealous coyote killers seem to pose a serious problem. Would there be any objection to killing predators that you would defend? Killing coyotes is a stupid and ignorant thing to do in and of itself, doing so in a red wolf recovery area seems even more ignorant, stupid and short sighted. There are approximately one hundred of these animals that look very much like coyotes, so what do you reccomend?

          • avatar ma'iingan says:

            “Killing coyotes is a stupid and ignorant thing to do in and of itself, doing so in a red wolf recovery area seems even more ignorant, stupid and short sighted. There are approximately one hundred of these animals that look very much like coyotes, so what do you reccomend?”

            I think I asked you for your recommendation first, and this is all you’ve got?

            Obviously public harvest of coyotes is problematic, but in order for this recovery project to succeed, and given their fecundity and adaptability, coyotes will have to be removed lethally.

            Coyote sterilization is a short-term solution, but it seems unlikely that it can be continued indefinitely or on a larger scale – and I agree with Aves, there needs to be a second recovery area established.

            • avatar Louise Kane says:

              Allowing the hunting and killing of coyotes is a stupid and ignorant thing to do… and I stand by that, especially so where they look very similar to an endangered species. Aves provided some of the information in his last post, where he wrote…” The USFWS has proven very effective at managing the hybridization through constant scouting and trapping, proper identification of canid species, sterilization of coyotes, and, yes, lethal removal of hybrids and coyotes. None of this is accomplished by hunters killing coyotes, red wolves, or hybrids.”

        • avatar aves says:

          During the debate over the state of North Carolina allowing the night hunting of coyotes the absurd notion that it would help red wolves by reducing hybridization kept popping up. The very demographic responsible for the majority of red wolf mortality was now claiming they would help red wolves by shooting at canids in the dark.

          The USFWS has proven very effective at managing the hybridization through constant scouting and trapping, proper identification of canid species, sterilization of coyotes, and, yes, lethal removal of hybrids and coyotes. None of this is accomplished by hunters killing coyotes, red wolves, or hybrids. If red wolves have a choice they will breed with another red wolf so the sooner people stop shooting them, whether deliberately or accidentally, the better off they will be.

          The western edge of the red wolf’s recovery area will always be an entry point for coyotes but the biggest impediments to long term recovery are human caused mortality (bullets and cars) and the need for another recovery area.

          • avatar Mark L says:

            Why not find a use for the hybrids? Is there not some argument that these are a valid mix also? Is half a red wolf a bastard or nothing? I know its not an easy question but it needs to be asked. There’s a huge amount of genetic heritage being lost to ‘purism’ here. (just playing devil’s advocate)
            I made the same argument for bison with cattle genes being moved south for non-tolerance and tiger salamanders in California.

            • avatar Louise Kane says:

              good question Mark
              maybe Aves or Jon Way can take a stab at it

            • avatar aves says:

              Historically, before we diminished the ecological integrity of the Southeast, there was always hybridization at the edge of the red wolf’s core range. Those hybrids may have functioned in the ecosystem similarly to red wolves but we have no way of knowing since nobody payed attention until red wolves were eliminated from all but the thickest swamps along the Louisiana-Texas border. If hybridization was occurring naturally and the red wolf was not critically endangered there would be no need to kill or sterilize coyotes and hybrids. If red wolves ever recover then that dynamic will resume unfettered, with a core range where red wolves mate with red wolves and a periphery where red wolves, coyotes, and hybrids can interact however they please. But since we have less than 100 red wolves it is crucial to maintain their genetic integrity. Our understanding of the ecological roles and genetics of wild canids is still evolving. Anything that makes a red wolf less of a red wolf genetically could have a profound effect on the species that has been shaped over generations to live in a specific area and do specific things.

              Thanks to the USFWS, hybrids are rare in the red wolf recovery area and would be even rarer if not for humans killing the wolves. I don’t think we are losing any genetic heritage with the removal of hybrids, the genetics of breeding red wolves are better served by allowing them to breed with each other. The only role for hybrids in the equation is sterilization and release where they could hold down a territory and possibly even pair with a red wolf and later be removed if a red wolf enters the area or can be translocated to that area. If they allow reproductive hybrids to remain in the red wolf recovery area they might as well end the recovery program. The species is too endangered to allow crossbreeding with another species. I would equate it to standing by while our actions cause endangered whooping cranes to breed with common sandhill cranes (which has only occurred in captivity) or endangered ocelots with common bobcats. These hybrid scenarios are only present to a significant extent if we mess things up, they would not occur if we left things as they were or still can be.

              I realize some people are uncomfortable with that but we should remember that hybrids are not protected by the USFWS and the ESA, that ending the current approaches to hybridization will fuel the fire of the many opponents of the red wolf program who are always harping on the debate about the red wolf’s true genetics to try and shut the program down, and that of all the justifications people kill wild canids this is the only one supported by science.

          • avatar Salle says:

            The KKKarl Rove school of thought grads no doubt.

            In the early days of the Red Wolf recovery, there was a large number of hybrids (both with dogs and coyotes) and there were very few Red Wolves. Part of the program, initially, was to capture and neuter the hybrids but keep them on the landscape in the recovery zone(s) for a time as place holders. This helped to keep other non-target species from inhabiting “open space” that would have been available if the hybrids had been removed while ensuring that lone Red Wolves would not be able to reproduce with them. This practice was to be phased out over time as the Red Wolf population increased and as the recovery zone(s) became repopulated.

            Mind you, during the recovery process, as political powers shifted, the property where recovery zones were established had been blasted by hurricane(s) and eyed by the procurement desires of the DoD. Unfortunately the human population of bubbas with flashlights and guns, seem to have won out with brute force and ignorance once again. But then, if you look at how the political landscape is shaping up since about 1999, this is no big surprise.

            One sad part, aside from the decline in Red Wolf population, is that the program was put into place after a major effort to educate the public and a process that included the public in approving the program. It was well planned, appropriately executed and the early success of the program is due to these factors. The good elements of democracy in action, very inclusive and well implemented once approved by the well informed general public in the area. A sad day for these wolves and all those who worked so hard on this program.

    • avatar Salle says:

      I wonder how many times they had to reuse all their fingers to count that high.

      • avatar JEFF E says:

        Most of them can only count to 11.
        he had to have had help

        • avatar Salle says:

          Yeah, and it was probably a three-year-old who just figured out how to use the term five thousan! As in: “Uncle Bubba, I bet it was five thousan woofses!!”

          Sorry, I just heard a three-year-old say something similar yesterday and that reminded me of the event. %]

  50. avatar Louise Kane says:

    et all advocates
    one for us

  51. avatar jon says:

    Some great news for California. Hound hunting of bear and bobcat has been banned in California starting January 1, 2013.

  52. avatar Salle says:

    Five Food-Conditioned Black Bears Euthanized In Northwest Montana
    Neighbors complained a Heron-area resident was feeding them

    Either these bear-feeding s^*theads are totally ignorant or hate wildlife so much that they will do crap like this to get them removed by any means possible. Whichever it is, these clowns are truly the most selfish kind… or maybe they think that nobody is going to notice or do anything about it.

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      Argggh! For every step forward, it seems there are two steps back. Stay away from and don’t feed bears for your own safety and others, and for their continued well-being as well. Five seems a lot – what a terrible waste. I hope that man that was fishing and got hurt by a griz will be ok too. 🙁

    • avatar JB says:

      It’s terrible to lose wildlife to stupidity. Fortunately, Montana has plenty of black bears.

  53. avatar Salle says:

    I’m transferring this comment to the current “News” thread:

    jdubya says:
    September 28, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    More on wolves in Utah…

  54. avatar Salle says:

    Battle of the lakers
    On Yellowstone Lake, biologists fight to save cutthroat, ecosytem, from exotic lake trout.

  55. avatar Salle says:

    Every time there’s a “hunt” to “gain acceptance” and to teach bad, depredating wolves in livestock areas a lesson, the quotas are always filled right outside the National Parks, where wolves are protected, first…

    Quota filled, wolf hunting season closes outside Glacier Park

    • avatar Rita K. Sharpe says:

      By the comments,they are just out just to kill them and protect the the elk,which someone posted, are defenseless against the wolves.Never hear of them protecting the cattle.

  56. avatar Salle says:

    Why the Beaver Should Thank the Wolf…
    Wolves and other predators have a powerful effect on the well-being of the ecosystems around them.

  57. avatar Salle says:

    The “return” of Moby Dick?

    Albino Humpback Whale: Migaloo, White Whale, Spotted Off Australian Coast (VIDEO)

  58. avatar Salle says:

    50 Years After Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring
    an essay by

    Rep. Ed Markey

    U.S. Representative, Seventh Congressional District of Massachusetts; Ranking Member, House Natural Resources Committee

    • avatar Salle says:

      Perhaps I should have placed these in the LORAX thread… Nonetheless, Everyone should consider the impact of what Ms. Carson’s writing had and how we seem to have chosen to generally ignore her wisdom half a century later. I would argue that, as a society, we have chosen to focus on distraction from reality with the temporary rewards of what seems to be convenience that will eventually prove to be our greatest mistake for our species and all the others with whom we share the biosphere.

      ‘Silent Spring’ Turns 50: Rachel Carson Warned Of ‘Pesticide Treadmill’ Powered By Big Ag

      An iron triangle of incredible proportion; big ag, the chemical industrial complex and the fossil fuels industrial complex.

  59. avatar jon says:

    This is a very disturbing article. Why should people who use to dogs to hunt other wildlife be reimbursed if their dogs are killed by wolves? Don’t these hound hunters understand there are risks letting your dogs chase after wildlife? These hound hunters make me sick to my stomach. Hound hunting in Wisconsin should be banned.

    • avatar Salle says:

      It seems that these groups are offering a proclamation of brute force and ignorance winning all arguments based on threats.

      Ignorance and hatred revolve around each other like binary stars engaged in a death spiral… eventually they burnout but the damage to all things nearby equates with absolute destruction of all those things.

    • avatar Salle says:

      So he’s one of the ranching interests that plague the Dinosaur NM… I was wondering about that ever since I visited, and camped in, that awesome place a few years ago. (And he’s probably one of the fossil fuels producers who have ravaged the lands around it with all those nasty rigs everywhere.)

      It would be nice to relieve that issue but it seems he’s creating another in Paonia and using the DNM as a bartering chip. How unfortunate for all of us.

    • avatar Ralph Maughan says:

      I guess this man is the “good” Koch Brother relatively speaking.

      There is a cautionary lesson here regarding the Romney Campaign. Mitt clearly has no regard for the public lands and would auction them off. People like this would end up owning millions or acres where there used to be national forests replete with big no trespassing signs.

      The dispossessed and uneducated people of the West that Romney says can’t take responsibility for their own lives could earn their meager wage by patrolling the borders of the billionaires’ principalities, strip mines, hunting preserves, faux Western towns, or whatever.

  60. avatar Salle says:

    All the Missing Horses: What Happened to the Wild Horses Tom Davis Bought From the Gov’t?

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      Ugh. Couldn’t you just vomit after reading that. 🙁

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      just having time to read that article about the wild horses now, more connections to Salazar. I don’t know much about this issue but wonder why the program ignores the warnings of advocate and auditors as stated here” For decades, government auditors and wild horse welfare advocates have warned that the policy of capturing and storing horses is unsustainable and have pushed for the BLM to use fertility controls, introduce predators or expand wild horse territories, but the agency has made little progress toward these goals. In the first half of this year, for example, it treated fewer than half as many wild horses with a birth control drug than was planned.”.

      I also do not know what natural predators would help keep wild horse populations in check? Anyone knowing more about this I’d love to hear from you.

      And Ida yes it does make me sick too. The thought of rounding up wild horses or other wildlife for that matter and taking them to slaughter houses is unconscionable. Humans devise some of the most insanely heinous torture for animals. Its hard not to be angry and disillusioned.

    • avatar CodyCoyote says:

      Funny thing. Every western state has strick livestock laws and Brand Inspectors. All horses ( indeed, all livestock ) have been Bar Coded ( branded) for time immemorial under that system. Penalties for rustling, use of ‘ running irons’ or selling slick stock are harsh , and the Feds respect those laws and abide them , yet we can’t determine where this Horse Slaughter advocate disposes of his BLM wild horses ? Horses he bought at the BLM Fire Sale for ten dollars a head ?? What’s wrong with this picture?

      G.A.A ( Go Ask Alpo)

      • avatar WM says:

        ++What’s wrong with this picture?++

        Since you asked, it is a set of really stupid federal laws that do not adequately or comprehensively deal with the wild horse problem – once again the result of some city slickers or in this case, wild horse advocates, not thinking thru the likely scenarios when disposing of a federally protected asset.

        Wild horses will procreate, have no natural predators, compete with wild ungulates and livestock for feed and winter range, inhabit federal Indian reservations or other federal reserves, and nobody really wants them, there is no way to dispose of them (especially after wild horse advocates lobbied to shut down meat processing facilities for horse flesh) and, it appears, loopholes or administrative nightmares with the likes of BLM trying in a half-assed way to get contractors to take them. They don’t care what happens to them after the fact, and this incident illustrates the problem in spades.

        I’d like to see the wild horse advocates come up with a viable, comprehensive solution that works for tribes, federal and state lands, and creates a market for either the sale to the public of live horses (burros where applicable) and processed meat if the American public can get past the “ick” factor that Europeans and other cultures got over centuries ago.

        What you see today is another empassioned advocacy story that got screwed up by their own doing. What exists today sure as hell isn’t working.

        • avatar JB says:

          WM: I agree with most of what you’ve written (though I don’t think Wild Horse Annie could be considered a “city slicker” by any stretch). However, this is a great example of what happens when agencies exhibit zero care and compassion for animal resources under their control. In this case, the good intentions of well-meaning animal rights activists have resulted in deteriorated habitat for wildlife, poor conditions for wild horses, and a huge bill that’s being picked up by the American people. The phrase “giant cluster #$%!” comes to mind.

        • avatar CodyCoyote says:

          WM- I am not against slaughtering horses of any class —wild , feral, or domestic—for meat and hooves. Not at all. It’s pretty much the only solution , and I disagree with so-called wild horse advocates who demand the horses remain alive but offer no viable alternatives as you clearly state.

          Where I live in Cody WY we have a very strong Horse subculture and do all that ” western ” stuff. Everybody wants a few horses to call their own , even if they seldom get used for anything other than the 4th of July parades.

          Cody also has three large BLM wild horse alllotments withing an hour’s drive of town…Mc Cullough peaks, Fifteen Mile, and the only actual Spanish Mustang wild horse colony in this part of the world, the Pryor Mountains grullas. All those other horse units are descendants of turned out ranch horses and better termed as feral, not wild. Yet there is no end to the obsessive sympatico towards the horse.

          I have two points: One, the adoption program isn’t working. supply exceeds demand, and the BLM loses money on every animal. People have every opportunity to adopt around here and everybody wants a nhorse, yet the BLM cannot adopt out even the meager local supply of culled horses. I’ve ridden more than a few ” wild” horses and they have all been exceptional sturdy animals. For mountain saddle horses, you really can’t beat them—but they really REALLY do not go solo well. Range culled horses are used to being around other horses 24/7 — the herd heirarchy— and that’s a tough trait to overcome. If Wyoming folks are not enthusiastic adopters of BLM range horses, then it’s difficult to expect the rest of the planet to step up. We’re adopted out.

          Second, to the point of this article , the Faustian bargain that the BLM made with this Davis guy to take huge numbers of unwanted horses for $ 10 a head is egregious in both directions. The BLM is being wanton , and Davis is being a callous privateer. The point being: no accountibility of what happens to those horses after Davis takes possession . He probably sells a few as saddle horses or working stock , which helps his image and gives him cover, but I suspect the bulk of them end up slaughtered in clandestine facilities. You have to ask. And the public should know the horse’s fate , regardless.

          Adoption is one tool, but does not alleviate the problem with overpopulation of range horses. Cull and slaughter would accomodate the excess , and the meat can be put to a variety of good uses , but is politically unpalatable. Perhaps what Davis is doing could be turned around to show the sympaticos that slaughtering has a place , obviously , since it never really went away . But the whole situation has a huge stink to it.

          It can be changed, though . But has to be done in bright sunshine.

          It’s never easy to dispose of an unwanted or deceased horse. Never.

          • avatar WM says:


            I agree with almost all you said. In addition, the tough part of the unaviodable processing of horse flesh (in the US rather than under the table transport of horses to Mexico or Canada is the need for facilities with the blessing of USDA.

            Several tribes, the Yakama nation for example, have something like 10,000 wild horses they want to reduce down to a manageable number, and this will require a sustained existence of logistically available processing facilities (and jobs for tribal members).

            No place and no federal support for an approved processing facility – and to sell meat off reservation it has to be USDA approved. The wild horse advocates, through Congressional action, as I recall, stopped US horse processing everywhere. This means BLM, as the article notes, is coloring between the lines out of necessity by selling low, and letting buyers send (wink, wink) animals to a less humane end at facilities out of the US. Ain’t that a dumb secondary impact from apparently well meaing, but, let’s be candid here, shortsighted, wild horse advocates.

  61. avatar Harley says:

    Caught the tail end of this on the radio yesterday. Looked it up. Wow…

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      I’ve been sick thinking about the wolves and how they have not had to dodge bullets, traps, snares and are probably somewhat used to a human presence. I hope there is a gigantic outpouring of outrage, sadness and a call for heads to roll when the wolves that people love to watch start to be killed.

    • avatar Salle says:

      Sam Parks,

      Cool! Thanks for posting that. Glad that’s settled… for a couple weeks.

    • avatar JB says:

      I heard about while listening to NPR yesterday. It’s great news, and shows that the constant pessimistic tone of many discussions on this site is uncalled for.

      • avatar Louise Kane says:

        Oh come on JB….the constant pessimistic tone is uncalled for. First off, the message of the post was celebrating Rare Good News. Then contrast the good news with the bad. First off there are swings in shifts of opinion, policy etc based on any number of factors. Yet the assaults on environmental, wilderness or wildlife policy never seem to let up.

        To characterize condemnation, criticism or analysis of a realistic impression of the current state of management of wildlife and natural ecosystems is not pessimism. Pessimism implies “a state of mind in which one anticipates undesirable outcomes or believes that the evil or hardships in life outweighs the good or luxuries”. I’d characterize the sentiments of many here who oppose the way that politics, ignorance, and apathy prevail over science as realistic. which implies looking at things as they really are. There is a big distinction between pessimism and realism.

        If you can paint a rosy picture of the way wildlife and natural systems are managed then maybe that might be characterized as denial.

        • avatar Louise Kane says:

          JB – and for you to use one example to illustrate your point is well…unlike you. Where are the studies she says, in good humor mind you

          • avatar JB says:

            Louise: Since we spend much of our time talking about carnivores, here are a few you might consider:

            Enserink & Vogel. 2006. The Carnivore Comeback. Science, 314:746-9.

            Eberhardt & Breiwick. 2010. Trend in Yellowstone Grizzly Bear Population. Int. Journal of Ecology, doi:10.1155/2010/924197

            Larue et al. 2012. Cougars are Recolonizing the Midwest: Analysis of Cougar Confirmations During 1990-2008. The Journal of Wildlife Management, 76(7)1364-9.

        • avatar JB says:


          I can paint a VERY rosy picture of wildlife conservation in the US–especially looking over the long term. In fact, I would argue that nearly all of the relevant trends point in a positive direction for the majority of species (as I mentioned in a previous post there are always exceptions.)

          The most relevant trends relate to habitat conservation. Every year states use sportsmen’s dollars to conserve more habitat for wildlife by increasing public lands (in the form of state Wildlife Areas). Likewise, every year NGOs and land trusts protect more private lands through purchases and easements. Legislation enacted in the 1970s has resulted in cleaner air and water, improving conditions for birds and fish (e.g., Lake Erie, once a cess pool, is now the most productive of the Great Lakes). It also resulted in the removal of DDT and the return of top level avian carnivores (e.g., bald eagles). Legislation protecting T&E species at the state and federal level is arresting extinctions for protected species and has even resulted in the outright recovery of some species. And new science comes out every day that increases our collective knowledge base and allows for “wiser” management.

          So yes, I think the pessimistic tone that so many adopt here–especially as it relates to carnivores–is overblown. When you focus on individuals as opposed to populations, you lose the forest through the trees.

          Note: My comments and examples speak largely to terrestrial species and inland aquatic species. I am more pessimistic about marine environments, mostly because of climate change.

          • avatar Louise Kane says:

            JB “The most relevant trends relate to habitat conservation.”
            I’m sure we could find endless science, reports, and articles to defend our positions. I tend to rely on what I consider to be very real threats and how they are evidenced daily as gag worthy and destructive policy that is regularly shoved down our collective throats. AS for the legislation that you indicated most of that was enacted because we had reached a tipping point that was unacceptable to human health and were in a crisis mode also coming at a time of social activism/awareness that has pretty much been unparalled since. The ESA was a rare piece of legislation in reaction to extinction threats. Is it time to relax, time to celebrate success. I think not especially in such a conservative, post citizens united world where policy, elections and candidates seats are more easily bought with the possibility of several SC seats up for grabs. The focus of political debate rarely shines a light on anything other than climate change and then conservatives are so out of step with mainstream America or science its truly appalling. Take for example the Warren/Brown debate last night. When asked about examples of differences in their policy and agendas, Scott Brown indicated his support of the keystone pipeline… He looked like the cheshire cat who just got the tweety bird. But he is so out of step with the majority of Americans and their opinion on this issue as well as their concerns he seemed genuinely surprised to receive the loud disapproval. Didn’t that proposal receive a mind boggling 800,000 signatures against it in a day or two. and the president vetoed the proposal. Still its being rammed down our throats, just like drilling in the Arctic wildlife refuge. A never ending cascade of bad policy and management actions being thrust on us with little or no regard for long term consequences. Thats my gripe, my dissillusionment. Without constant vigilance the picture would not be as rosy as you insist nor would the advances be made.
            Some refrences about habitat fragmentation and loss

            Some key questions is habitat protected keeping up with habitat loss, what uses are allowed in the “protected habitat” that impact species and ecosystem health and what are the continued threats and how they are addressed.

            as for predators
            JB I don’t believe that a concern about carnivores and their protection is grounded in a focus on individual animals, as you suggest. Most studies that are directed at a loss of apex or mesopredators express a concern of general ecosystem health and a concern over trends in the loss of large numbers of them worldwide.
            JB you wrote “And new science comes out every day that increases our collective knowledge base and allows for “wiser” management.” the key here is that it allows for wiser management but when and how often is it used? and where is the science in much of this decision making, woefully inadequate

            • avatar JB says:


              I too bemoan the constant onslaught by (largely) conservative politicians. However, I never said conservationists should claim victory and call it a day; rather, I said that there is a LOT to be happy about.

              And there is a risk in preaching gloom and doom all of the time. First and foremost, you risk becoming the ‘boy-who-cried-wolf’ (pun intended), teaching people that you are not a reliable source of information. Second, you risk turning people off to the topic altogether. A common response to overly-gloomy information is to tune-out because it gives people the perception that nothing can be done to fix the problem (so they ignore it and go on with their daily lives).

              So yeah, the ESA and most of the rest of our effective environmental is 30-40 years old. But that’s not a reason to lament. In fact, we should be celebrating what these laws have accomplished and figuring out ways to make them do more.

              Honestly, the stuff about the loss of carnivores “disrupting” systems is way overblown in my opinion.

            • avatar Louise Kane says:

              JB your thoughts noted

      • avatar Salle says:

        How long has it been since that initiative was signed into law? It has been a screaming match ever since and for many of us, the sway of the federal government has been directly involved in whether or not the courts would even hear the case ~ again. In current times and circumstances, any idea that something like this would be settled is a rarity indeed.

        And as I said above, I’m glad that’s settled… for a couple-few weeks. There will be some well-funded lobbying effort to re-argue this one soon enough.

  62. avatar Salle says:

    This is different

    Get bird’s eye view of the world in new documentary
    A new documentary called “Winged Planet” features breathtaking views from the perspective of our feathered friends. Series producer and director John Downer talks about capturing the stunning images.

    • avatar ma'iingan says:

      The information on Wisconsin is wrong – the 782 animals counted in 2011 is the “minimum observed population”. We don’t do an estimate, we conduct an actual count.

  63. avatar Barb Rupers says:

    WWP information regarding a grazing allotment in central Idaho impacting salmon, bull trout, and steelhead; just came in an email:

  64. avatar jon says:

    Something is not adding up in this article. Other articles I read said that there were atleast 328 wolves in Wyoming. I read that there were 20-40 wolves in the areas where they could be shot on sight as predators. There should be many more wolves than 200 in the trophy game area.

    • avatar jon says:

      Wyoming gov. Mead even said Wyoming has 328 wolves.

      “The current wolf population in the Wyoming Trophy Game Area is estimated at just over 200 wolves.”

      If there are 328 wolves in Wyoming and 200 wolves live in the trophy game zone, that would mean that the other 128 wolves live in the “predator” zone? If this is true, then Wyoming lied. They said in numerous article that I read that only 20-40 wolves live in the “predator” zone.

      • avatar jon says:

        Maybe Cody can answer this for me?

        • avatar jon says:

          If all of that is true, seemed like Wyoming is pulling a fast one on people.

        • avatar Leslie says:

          YNP has the remainder. The only wolves in the Predator zone I’ve heard of are a few to the south and there have been wolves that make it to the Big Horns, kill sheep, then they are exterminated.

          • avatar Salle says:

            Wyoming isn’t allowed to count any wolves on the Wind River IR. Don’t know how many are there and I don’t think they’re interested in telling either since they have a different way of perceiving wolves that doesn’t seem to include killing them for “sport”.

            I’m guessing that either the Game and Fish guys are spinning and etch-a-sketching their data and/or sometimes including the Wind River and Park (both YNP and GTNP) numbers in their tallies ~ even though it’s impossible to know exactly how many there are in any given place at any given time.

    • avatar Salle says:

      As I read that article and the small number of wolves (total) in Wyoming, it does seem like pretty small population. The state os not allowed to include the number of wolves living in YNP, GTNP and WRIR which is roughly 5-6 million acres of the NW corner of the state. That doesn’t mean that people aren’t going to go sit on the borders of these places and “get” their wolf.

      It seems to have become a trend where the hunting units where the quotas are reached first appear to be those bordering areas where wolves are still protected… go figure.

      I was also interested in the way that this new wolf hunting thing was being presented over at the Wyoming Game and Fish web site.

      Interestingly, there is no mention on of a “wolf hunt” in the hunting regs page, but if you scroll waaay down, you’ll see it stands out from all the other regs that include the word “hunting” you’ll find it listed as “Wolf Management”

      And another thought arose while reading the article, if there are only < 400 wolves in the state for much of the state, why are they selling nearly 1000 (or more?) tags for 50+ wolves? A new way to imagine "collateral damage"?

      • avatar Mark L says:

        Salle said,
        “It seems to have become a trend where the hunting units where the quotas are reached first appear to be those bordering areas where wolves are still protected… go figure.”
        Hence my wondering what becomes of the red wolf hybrids at the ‘edge’ of red wolf territory earlier. Odd–the US jaguar support argument involves a claim that jags that are on the northern edge of a population are more likely to adapt to differing climes/biomes, but the same isn’t applied to red wolf hybrids that are ‘cannon fodder’ in the name of the ESA. Which way we going here?

        • avatar aves says:

          Your analogy makes no sense. Jaguars are all of the same species, there aren’t even any subspecies of jaguar. Red wolves and coyotes are not the same species and the hybrids have no advantage over red wolves.

      • avatar Louise Kane says:

        Salle I think Idaho sold 40,000 or so and MOntana a similarly high number. Its hard to fathom the ignorance and disregard for this species and the responsibility to manage a public trust responsibly. Its all out war

  65. avatar CodyCoyote says:

    Oregon farmer eaten by his own hogs.
    … and folks are so-o-o-o-o-o worried about getting eaten by wolves.

    • avatar Immer Treue says:

      Shades of Deadwood. Not to make lite of the man’s unusual departure, what is now done with the swine. Sent immediately to the butcher? Wait to see which if not all did the eating?…

    • avatar Salle says:


      • avatar Louise Kane says:

        yes Salle
        I like to think the same kind of response that helped to keep viewer activity so low for the SPalin show that Animal Planet dropped although they did not drop the show even despite the hard core public response in opposition to it.
        I think AP also recently aired a singularly offensive and disgusting show on killing wolves where one of the killers said it was the most fun they had experienced. The programs that glorify killing are reprehensible and the networks need to be called out. I was so glad to see this one cancelled. Kudos to the petition drafter

  66. avatar CodyCoyote says:

    A NASA satellite graphic showing the extent of the drought across the Lower 48 states.

    Using infrared imaging to infer the amount of chlorophyll and comparing it to a database of images going back many years, this shows where the drought is worst . The southern Rocky Mountain Front seems to be the boundary of this summer’s rain shadow in a very demarcated way…everything east of the Rockies out into the Plains is damn dry.

    Saskatchewan and eastern Alberta had above normal rainfall, however. Guess the Canadians will be selling us a lot of hay and feed this winter.

    • avatar Immer Treue says:

      Very nice reinforcement of the rainshadow effect of the Rocky Mountains as one moves east. Almost textbook.

      • avatar Salle says:

        Those areas were also hit with a lot of tornado activity this year. To have a long, arid and hot season to follow. Not much “give” for recovery of a traumatized soil/vegetation system… must have significantly contributed to the severity of the drought.

  67. avatar Louise Kane says:

    From the creeps at Big Game Forever they have some television special spewing their garbage
    It would be good for Outdoor channel to hear some thoughts about this



    Tonight we invite you to watch Big Game Forever’s predator management show on Outdoor Channel with MacMillan River Adventures’ (9:30pm Mountain Time, 10:30pm Central Time). This episode highlights the importance of responsible predator management in wildlife conservation. Not only does the show include some great mountain lion and bear hunting, it explores coyote control and other predator issues affecting the health of Western big game populations. There is one scene where a group of mule deer tries unsuccessfully to save a fawn from a group of coyotes. While the scene is hard to watch, it dramatically illustrates what is happening every day to the West’s Mule Deer herds. It is worth watching.

    Thanks again to hosts Keith Mark and Shawn Michaels of MacMillan River Adventures for their support of wildlife conservation and of the mission of Big Game Forever. Last year, MacMillan River Adventures’ wolf episode with Big Game Forever won Outdoor Channel’s Golden Moose Award for the best conservation episode of the year.

    We hope you enjoy tonight’s show.

    Ryan Benson

    Please sign the petition to support state wolf management at

    • avatar HAL 9000 says:

      Speaking as a hunter, hunters (in general terms) have really got to get over rotten, ignorant attitudes regarding predators.

      • avatar Immer Treue says:


        Apologies if my exchange was with someone else other than you, but we went back and forth on the issue of hunting rags doing an editorial along these same lines. Me thinks it might go at least a short way to reign in some of the obnoxious discourse, and be a step in the correct direction of finding common ground with environmental groups. Needless to say, there would also be required a corresponding gesture to control anti-hunting rhetoric.

  68. avatar jon says:

    Fantastic news for California. Why are hunters angry about the name change? It’s now the California department of fish and wildlife. Wildlife is wildlife and it should be called wildlife, not game imho.

    • avatar JB says:


      This article encapsulates everything that is wrong with conservation right now. The “us-vs-them” mentality of SOME hunters and SOME animal welfare groups is the problem–it is putting conservation at risk. We can conserve wildlife populations for future generations AND hunt them too!
      The fears of SOME hunters from California are silly. I can assure you from personal experience that agencies using the term “wildlife” can still have “traditional” focus on game (and that’s not all bad).

      • avatar Louise Kane says:

        JB is your comment a fair assessment or a personal value judgment? I think you’d call out others on a claim like this.

        The name change to California Department of Fish and Wildlife is a subtle move away from the concept that states manage wildlife solely as a commodity to be hunted. And while I know you are correct in stating that agencies that use the term wildlife in their title may likely still have a focus on game, California is flexing its muscle and showing that they are willing and ready to move toward a greater consideration of non consumptive uses for wildlife, as their constituents desire. They have recently banned hounding for bears and bobcats and provide protection from trapping. They also recently ridded themselves of the official that went to Idaho to hunt cougars, wasn’t that the issue. The coastal western states all seem to be taking a progressive stance, despite the recent Wedge Pack killing, that went against public opinion. California in particular is presenting and voting for initiatives that I think represent some core beliefs about conservation that are more in keeping with a public trust concept of managing for the future and to protect the resource for the benefit of all its people, not just hunters. For some of us its good to see a shift in attitude to reflect our non consumptive attitudes about wildlife. It seems that you do not want to consider the possibility that hunting in its various forms, with few restraints, lack of effective enforcement, and in contravention of notions of fair chase and humane killing (if there is such a thing), do not equate to conservation for many of us. The deck has been stacked for hunters for a long time, there is going to be some us and them to effect change… unless you believe that hunters out of sheer good will – will voluntarily self-police themselves and adhere to true conservation policies and ethics that nullify the need to advocate for wildlife protection. I think there is room to work together but the very reaction you point to by the hunters is a good example of why advocates feel that its come to us or them. Them (hunter) interests always seem to trump us interests (wildlife conservationists and advocates.

        • avatar Louise Kane says:

          JB this portion of the article describes the reason for the name change. “This department’s been around under the same brand for over 100 years,” Huffman said. “The resources of the department have not kept pace with its mission, which has become very broad. The trend not just in California but in the United States has been away from managing only for hunting and fishing, and managing broadly in a way that includes hunting and fishing.”

          The bill also beefs up the department’s law enforcement role and its use of science to guide policies that will be designed to protect entire ecosystems instead of individual species. It also allows it to increase and broaden its collection of fees beyond the money raised through hunting and fishing licenses.

          Huffman’s legislation, which does not change the name of the regulatory California Fish and Game Commission, was one of several bills signed by the governor that supporters say will modernize a department that traces its origins to Spanish and Mexican laws enacted before California became a state. Brown also approved SB1249 by Sen. Lois Wolk, D-Davis, which will let the department contract with nonprofit conservation groups to manage state-owned lands and charge fees for using more of its properties.

          This is a step in the right direction, its inclusive of both user groups, not just hunting!

        • avatar JB says:


          Yes, what I wrote contains a very explicit value judgment–specifically, that the goal of conservation is enhanced when we (hunters and non-hunters) work together, not against one another (just think how much habitat could’ve been conserved were all of the groups who have been suing to have spent their attorney’s fees on land acquisition and easements).

          Regardless, I think you’ve read far too much into my comment. When I wrote that the article “encapsulates everything that is wrong with conservation right now” I was not referring to the name-change for California’s agency, which makes perfect sense to me (BTW: I work closely with a Division of Wildlife that doesn’t feel the need to distinguish fish from wildlife). Rather, I was referring to the “us-vs-them” framing and the silly fears of hunters that changing a word was some how symptomatic of a change in focus. As the article pointed out–the focus changed long ago, the name change merely brings the agencies name in alignment with their responsibilities.

          The idea that this is (or should be) controversial at all is utterly ridiculous.

          • avatar JB says:

            And yes, that’s another value judgment. 😉

            • avatar Louise Kane says:

              (just think how much habitat could’ve been conserved were all of the groups who have been suing to have spent their attorney’s fees on land acquisition and easements).

              love this idea!

          • avatar Kathleen says:

            Agreed. The term “wildlife” is the most inclusive and accurate. Animals who–at limited times of the year–are considered “game” are still always wildlife. Categorically calling animals “game” reduces them to a commodity and a target. The first time I saw a “game crossing” sign (WY) I was literally shocked and recognized it to be a political word choice.

  69. avatar ma'iingan says:

    A study of opinions regarding the management of free-roaming cats –

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      This is very heartening.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      Thanks Jeff Its easy to stand behind people who are willing to do the right thing or at least protect that which they are entrusted to protect!

      “It might surprise some to hear he often advocates for preservation of local species. He voted to shut down salmon fishing for two seasons when the population crashed. He also recently closed the already limited hunting season for sage grouse in Lassen County. Fires there decimated the birds’ habitat.
      “It was just the right thing to do. We’ve lost so much habitat over the years,” he lamented.”

      • avatar JEFF E says:

        thank you Ida and Louise, I appreciate your open-mindedness to understand that there are always different shades of grey on every, if not all, issues.

  70. avatar savageslc says:

    Hey folks just to lighten up your day i’ve included a link to my Yellowstone photography taken in May of this year. Take a look at all the beautiful wildlife we are so passionate about preserving. Wolves, grizzlies, fox kitts and much more. Thanks

  71. avatar Salle says:

    Hill promotes hunting, fishing plan

    “Hill appeared with NRA President David Keene in Great Falls before about a dozen people to field questions on fishing, hunting and public access to land.

    The former congressman said he wants the state to take over management of threatened grizzly bears from the federal government and said that there is no room for free-roaming bison in the state.”

    Pretty much sums this guy up, and according to statements in this article, this candidate hasn’t held a hunting license in at least a decade. He doesn’t appear to have very many values that many of the state’s residents share, only those of the loudest ~ not very well thought out views ~ minorities.

    • avatar jon says:

      he doesn’t hunt, but he’s being endorsed by the nra which many consider to be an extreme right wing group.

      • avatar Savebears says:


        When are you going to post some of the political issues from your state? I would really like to know what is going on in your neck of the woods?

  72. avatar Ida Lupine says:

    Talk about those who need to be hazed back from whence they came!

  73. avatar Salle says:

    Fed bears become seven dead bears

    “The Sanders County Ledger contacted Barbara Sweeney, the woman suspected of feeding the bears, and she openly admitted doing so for the purpose of “teaching them to survive in the wild.”

    She said she and her now-deceased husband operated an animal refuge on their property for the last 22 years. She said people would bring her orphan bears and she would teach the bears how to feed and flee from threats in the wild.

    “I taught them to run from outfitters and pickups,” she said.

    Sweeney said no one told her it was illegal to feed bears or other wild animals.

    “People have known I’ve been doing this for years,” she told the Ledger. “If they would have said something, I would have stopped. I can’t get over they killed these animals.”

    • avatar Savebears says:

      Here in Montana, it is pretty well known, you don’t feed wildlife! Come on!

      • avatar Salle says:

        Maybe it’s just that nobody told on her until now…? A lot of folks thinks that some things are okay to do, even though they know better, as long as they don’t get caught.

  74. avatar Salle says:

    Talk about plugging your ears and shouting, “lalalalal!”… and these folks are running for office. OH and the Montana law that prohibits Citizens United type activity has been overturned yet again. Glad I don’t have a TeeVee. But my mailbox is full of wasted paper.

    Auditor candidates tout coal bonafides at debate

  75. avatar Immer Treue says:

    Rather discouraging news via the international Wolf Center

    The IWC maintained a comprehensive radio telemetry data base of wolves in Superior National Forest. Gret in terms of education, or if one wanted to plot wolf territories on their own. And for the nonconcumptive user, one could plan Winter camping trips where wolf pack activity was consistent. So, if a particular lake was the site of wolf activity, strap on the skies, haul a sled with your gear, and spend a few nights on the lake.

    This information could also have been used by hunters and trappers. What bothers me most about it is that with the anti-wolf clamor in the state, the wolves of Superior National Forest in general and the BWCAW in particular are far removed from most people, farms, ranches etc.

    Another one of those little reasons for perhaps holding the wolf season off for another year or so. Just my opinion.

  76. avatar jon says:

    Hunter wants to poison coyotes with xylitol.

    • avatar HAL 9000 says:

      That forum tends to be a clearinghouse for the worst stereotypical redneck attitudes from within the hunting community. As a hunter myself, it’s virtually never failed to offend me… LOL!

    • avatar Immer Treue says:

      Of the few comments, no real sense of right or wrong, other than the bird hunter voicing. Oncern if one of his dogs ingested xylitol.

  77. avatar Salle says:

    Things are heating up in Texas! It appears that the XL pipeline operators’ impunity includes treating landowners like a pariah on their own land. It’s obvious that there is only one thing they care about, and it ain’t anyone or anything that doesn’t bring them a profit at someone else’s cost.

    Tar Sands Blockade: Along with Landowner, Actress Daryl Hannah Arrested
    Great grandmother, Eleanor Fairchild, and film actress both arrested after blocking machinery

    “How can you be arrested for “trespassing” on your own land?” asked members from Tar Sands Blockade in a statement. “Well, anything can happen when a multi-national corporation comes in and expropriates your farm for their profit.”

    • avatar mikepost says:

      Many folks are clueless about the nature of the easements and mineral ownership of the property they consider “theirs”. So yes, you can, often quite lawfully, get arrested on your own land.

      • avatar Salle says:


        Indeed, that’s what I was thinking when I first read about this story. A lot of people don’t realize that when they buy a piece of property that it may well not include the mineral rights for the whatever may be below the surface area they’ve purchased. It’s one of those things that may be considered “doing the homework” for when considering a purchase. Same for water rights and other incidentals.

        But if she does have the mineral rights to her property, then there’s some legal rights. These are some of the particulars of the ancient mining laws that need to be changed, that kind of bait and switch real estate chicanery is a ghostly holdover from the era of carpetbaggers and robber barons.

        • avatar mikepost says:

          Salle, if a piece of property changed hands in the late 19th or 20th century it probably did not include mineral rights. There are even giant swoths of public land purchased for conservation reasons which usually do not have the mineral rights included. Discovering all this is an escrow nightmare. Now usually the mineral exploitation possibilities have been long ago examined and dismissed but as new technology arises, such as ultra deep drilling processes, there could be some real surprises.

  78. avatar Salle says:

    New cougar sighting near Eagle Thursday afternoon; sheriff’s office advises public on how to react if they see big cat up close

  79. avatar Salle says:

    A study that may, possibly be fortunate for bears in CO…

    URSINE 101
    Durango provides prime urban wildlife habitat for bear study—

  80. avatar Salle says:

    Not only is the idea of grazing permits being retired a good thing, this is too…

    AP Exclusive: Wyo. Range gas lease buyout planned

    The Trust for Public Land plans to buy out 58,000 acres of oil and gas leases owned by Houston-based Plains Exploration and Production Co. for $8.75 million, the San Francisco-based group tells The Associated Press.

    The announcement opens a fundraising effort by the trust. Almost half the money needs to be raised if the deal is to be closed at the end of the year as the agreement requires.

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      What a terrible idea. People will find ever more inventive ways to traffick in drugs and get around these barriers, and only the wildlife will be hurt.

    • avatar Mark L says:

      Most busy Interstates without a grass median serve the same function. It’s not good for wildlife, but fairly common.

  81. avatar Nancy says:

    Okay, which jar do you want to see on the table in the morning with your buttered muffins?

  82. avatar Maska says:

    The USFWS has rejected petitions to separately list the Mexican gray wolf (Canis lupus baileyi) as either a subspecies or a Distinct Population Segment. Here’s the 12 month finding:

    • avatar Jeff N. says:

      Read this disappointing news after returning from a camping trip in the White Mountains of eastern AZ….Lobo country.

      The trip will be hard to top in the future; basically spent the weekend with the Bluestem Pack consisting of 8 wolves. Happened to get extremely lucky and observed them Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Nights and mornings were filled with wolf howls. It’s all about being in the right spot at the right time.

      • avatar Salle says:

        I guess! Lucky you. Glad it was a good adventure and you could really enjoy their company.

      • avatar Maska says:

        That has been our experience. Seeing lobos is a mixture of about 20% knowledge and experience and 80% good fortune.

  83. avatar Maska says:

    Here’s the press release from the Service regarding the 12-month finding on the WEG and CBD petitions.

    • avatar Nancy says:

      “Without the wolf, elk and deer are free to dawdle in valleys and by streams, eating their fill and degrading the ecosystem; wolf reintroduction to Yellowstone has resulted in flourishing streamside vegetation and increased biodiversity”

      Interesting choice of words and a lot more complicated than most realize, when it comes to the delicate balance of life, whether wild or not, out here in the western states.

  84. avatar Salle says:

    A Farm Bill Only Monsanto Could Love

    What’s the big deal with the new bill? Most importantly, the House version of the 2012 Farm Bill contains three industry-friendly provisions, numbered 10011, 10013, and 10014. Collectively, they have come to be known as the “Monsanto Rider,” and the name is entirely appropriate. If passed, this bill would make it more difficult to stem the tide of GMO foods hitting store shelves.

    These three provisions in the 2012 Farm Bill would grant regulatory powers solely to the United States Department of Agriculture, preventing other federal agencies from reviewing GMO applications and preventing the USDA from accepting outside money for further study. The bill would also shorten the deadline for approval to one year, with an optional 180-day extension.

    And here’s the kicker: the approval time bomb. If the USDA misses the truncated review deadline, the GMO in question is granted automatic approval.

    Among other bad legislative issues this Bill contains.

  85. avatar Salle says:

    Wish I could go to this…

    Biennial science conference in Yellowstone

  86. avatar Leslie says:

    As of today, just 8 days into the WY wolf hunt, the area I live in, which has one of the biggest wolf quotas of 8 wolves, already has 3 dead. The Sunlight/Crandall area, as of last winter, had about 13 or 14 wolves in 2 packs. A pack of around 9 and one of 4/5. Killing 8 out of 13 wolves (well, now there are pups too so the packs are larger), reduces the two packs to almost nothing.

    2 winters ago there were 4 packs with around 35 wolves. The wolves self-regulated themselves, fighting for territory and killing each other off to their present numbers. This area is one of the principle areas for genetic exchange, roaming in and out of the park (most of these wolves cross into the park), and repopulating the park when numbers are low there due to disease, etc.

    It makes me sick that the WG&F has targeted this area as well as area 11 & 8 which are in the flex-zone for high quotas.

  87. avatar Louise Kane says:

    Thank you Leslie for your post we can only hope that as the wolves start dying there will be a great public outrage and backlash.

    Someone sent this to me, can anyone confirm if the first wolf was killed was lured out of the park with a call of pup in distress?

    • avatar Leslie says:

      One friend of mine, an ex-Forest Service person, is sure that now that WY hunts are legal, even tho they have quotas, rules, etc., these mean-spirited wolf hunters who’ve been gearing up with hatred for years, will go ‘pop’ a wolf if they see one whether the quotas are met or not, whether they have a license or not, and there will be plenty of poaching.

      You know, in my valley, there’s been poaching going on for years. Now people can just say ‘I thought it was a coyote’. I was at the G&F mtg. last spring. Someone asked what the fine would be if the quota had been filled and they didn’t know and they shot a wolf (read: poaching). The answer: $100!

      • avatar Mark L says:

        Leslie said,
        “You know, in my valley, there’s been poaching going on for years. Now people can just say ‘I thought it was a coyote’.”
        I suspect the law was written just so this could happen. This is the same problem they have in North Carolina, where the law encourages ‘mistakes’ that can be excused as errors. If we don’t hold our representatives accountable, this is what we get.
        Also, anyone know if there are there any restrictions on what happens to the wolf after it’s been shot? Is there any rule on what can’t be done with the carcuss and pelt?

      • avatar JB says:

        $100? Is that correct? The cost of a gray wolf hunting license in Wyoming is $18. If memory serves, the success rate in Idaho for wolf hunters was 1% with ~twice the number of wolves. So if your probability of bagging a wolf is 1 in 100, it will on average take 100 attempts at $18 a pop (or about $1800 to “bag” a wolf). Or you could not pay a dime, and hope you don’t get caught. And if you do, hey it’s only $100 fine–you still come out on top!

        IF this is true, Wyoming’s policy incentives poaching by making it cheaper–on average–than paying for a license.

        • avatar Ida Lupine says:

          Wyoming’s policy incentives poaching by making it cheaper–on average–than paying for a license.

          I noticed the same thing, but for different reasons. The “flex zone” which amounts to nothing more than running a gauntlet while “hunters” wait outside parks, and a shoot-on-sight policy elsewhere, and a ridiculous 10-day reporting policy.

          • avatar Salle says:

            This situation reminds me of conversations I’ve had with my Native American friends. When we discuss anthropologists and archaeologists with regards to their relatives, the response from most of them when asked by some researcher about where their relatives might be buried or something about “digging” things up… “You want to dig up my family to answer your questions. So let me ask you, where’s your grandmother buried so I can go dig her up?”

            My point is, the general American culture seems to assume that it has all the answers and that the most brutal manner of dealing with concerns, that have many resolutions, is the only way of dealing with whatever the concerns might be. Like killing wildlife in order to pretend that it is “management”. Most of the situations that our culture seems to think requires brutality to “make right” are problems the culture has brought upon itself. Nothing can come to a positive resolve if the only manner of approach is through violence and death of “the other”. Now-a-days it seems that the only answer to any problem is to go out and kill someone, human or other life form.

            Violation of anyone or anything to get results is just wrong, no matter what the issue is whether it’s trying to figure out some anthropological curiosity or working within the natural world that really isn’t accepted or respected because most business models doesn’t allow for the vital components of that environment within which the business is to operate. Wildlife is necessary, humans and their entertainment are not. (Humans contribute nothing to any ecosystem, they only take.)

          • avatar Salle says:


            Thanks. I feel the same of you and your diligence in getting important facts out from under the carpet.

      • avatar CodyCoyote says:

        It is very presumptive to expect when it comes to Wolf ” hunts” that Wyoming hunters will follow the rules…

        The only question remaining is how well can Wyoming riflers connect on long range running shots at any and all wolves ? They might as well put a free ” fire at will ” Grey wolf coupon on every General hunting license from Cottontail rabbit Small Game all the way up to Elk and Deer…

        The so-called ” Trophy” wolf hunts in the northwest corner barely resemble hunting. Everywhere else in Wyoming ( 84 percent of the state) it’s Caniside.

        Neither are Wildlife Conservation by any stretch.

    • avatar Connie says:

      Louise, have you received any more information on this report? I find it disturbing and would like to know if it is factual. Thanks.

      • avatar Louise Kane says:

        Connie, please refresh my memory
        which report? There are a number of things I am reading about and researching.

        • avatar Connie says:

          Sorry I wasn’t clear. I was asking about the story regarding the first Wyoming wolf killed supposedly lured from YNP with a wolf pup distress call. Is there any truth to it?

      • avatar Savebears says:

        I have seen nothing to indicate this story is true, I have even talked to many involved, the wolf pup distress call story is just that……….a story.

  88. avatar Leslie says:

    again, here is the online link for the daily mortality rates and quotas in each area.

  89. avatar Immer Treue says:

    Wolves cost BC cattlemen $15,000,000 per year.

    Somebody help me with what I missed, if indeed I missed something, and I will glady eat the proverbial crow, but with 107 confirmed depredation cases, not all of which were wolf confirmed.. Comes out to over $140,000 per cow/calc. Something does not sound right.

    • avatar JB says:

      Yikes! Those are some expensive cattle. What do they make ’em out of…platinum?

      • avatar Salle says:

        It must be the BC version of Kobei cows, the ones that get a massage and milk baths and spa treatment and a steak from one of those pampered bovines is about a month’s rent or a mortgage payment… But that can’t be because with all that human attention and “presence” wolves wouldn’t be able to get near them. A puzzlement for certain.

    • avatar SAP says:

      Is the exchange rate THAT bad now? 😉 Looks like two extra zeroes.

      • avatar Salle says:

        Perhaps it’s the result of selective dyslexia..?

      • avatar Immer Treue says:

        No zeros in the headline. 15 million.

        • avatar Nancy says:

          Well its obvious how they figured this – The loss of just one of those cows (say the market value is $1,200) times the potential of her having 12 calves in her life time, times the potential of those 12 calves, having 12 calves 🙂

    • avatar CodyCoyote says:

      Wow. And I thought Japanese Kobe beef was expensive on the hoof.

      Immer, this is a wholly ridiciulous and probably egregious misapplication of statistics, don’tcha think ? The BC livestock producers must’ve attended a few Wyoming-Montana-Idaho seminars on how to game the Ag Statistics system .

    • avatar Barb Rupers says:

      It didn’t sound right to some Canadians either.

      And some residents of northeast Alberta oppose a $300 bounty paid for a wolf. $87,000 paid out so far.

      • avatar Immer Treue says:


        Two good comeback articles, ESP the first about the $$$. Any right thinking person understands depredations will occur, and certain ranchers may be hit harder than others, yet, that same thinking person can see with painful obviousness that the wolf
        becomes the scapegoat for a great portion of the ailment(s)possessed by the cattle industry in both Canada and the States.

    • avatar RobertR says:

      I don’t know about the dollar amount but Canada as a whole has around 50,000 plus wolves and British Columbia alone has 8000 wolves.

  90. avatar Louise Kane says:

    Democracy Now, Amy Goodman interview on the horses the US sold to Davis

  91. avatar Louise Kane says:

    October 20 wolf walk to protest wolf hunt in MN- please facebook and distribute….as posted

    JRey Crow posted in WOLF WALK 2012

    JRey Crow 2:39pm Oct 9
    PLEASE SHARE this on your walls, private messages, email or fax to ALL media (radio, newspapers, tv stations, etc.) in your area… we need to draw support from the rest of the nation, at least!

    Media alert

    Contact: Reyna Crow 218.269.2661
    Deb Balzer 6.12.481.1571

    WOLF WALK 2012 in Duluth

    DULUTH, MN (October 9, 2012) Minnesotans from across the state are expected to rally in Duluth on Saturday, October 20, 2012 in a show of public opposition to the controversial MN wolf sport hunting and trapping season to begin November 3.

    Wolf protection advocates are inviting the public to join them for WOLF WALK 2012.
    The Duluth-based Northwoods Wolf Alliance and Twin Cities- based Howling for Wolves will be co-hosting WOLF WALK 2012 in Duluth, MN on Saturday, October 20th at 1:00 pm.

    The groups will gather at the Civic Center Plaza, 411 W. First Street for a rally and then march to Lake Superior Plaza West (corner of Lake Avenue and Superior Street) to demonstrate against the planned wolf sport and trapping season and to encourage wolf supporters to contact Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton and DNR Commissioner Tom Landwehr and urge them to stop the hunt on the state’s legacy animal.

    Howling for Wolves, along with the Center for Bio-Diversity, recently filed a lawsuit seeking an injunction to stop the sport hunt and trapping season. Howling for Wolves founder, Maureen Hackett, M.D. will speak at the event.

    Also scheduled to address the group is Robert DesJarlait, Red Lake Anishinaabeg, member of the University of Minnesota Council of Elders and co-founder of “Protect our Manoomin.” DesJarlait will speak about the historical, cultural and spiritual significance of ma’iingan (the wolf) to the Anishinaabeg people. The speaker list also includes Lisa Herthel, a mother, grandmother, UW-Superior student and member of the Mole Lake (Wisconsin) tribe and Howard Goldman of the Humane Society of the United States.

    The Little Horse Drum Group from the Duluth Native American community will perform at the event. They are Anishinaabeg traditional singers who want to protect the wolf and keep our traditional teachings strong. They sing for the community and have brought the drum and their songs to many community gatherings, celebrations and spiritual events.

    The event is free and all people are invited to participate in the WOLF WALK 2012.

  92. avatar Leslie says:

    I just found out that the grey yearling I’ve seen several times over the year was one of the wolves taken this week. Last May I saw him just 20′ away, watching me from behind a tree, curious. I assumed he’d be shot early on. Wolves are curious about us humans–isn’t that how they became dogs long ago. My own curiosity which has allowed me to see these wolves in my valley from time to time, makes this all too personal and sad.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      Leslie that is heartbreaking. I think these wolves in Wyoming are going to be sitting ducks as its hard to imagine they are not somewhat habituated to seeing humans, who up until now they have not had to fear. You must feel terrible. I am thousands of miles away and it keeps me up nights. I will never understand the mindset to kill animals for fun. Cowardly and perverse are two words that come to mind.

      • avatar Leslie says:

        Although these wolves in our valley have killed each other off as well for years (in addition to helicopter kills by USF&W), there is just something different emotionally for me in these hunters buying tags and hunting them, than in wolves killing each other off. Wolves seem to self-regulate themselves, through territorial fights and/or the inability to find/kill prey.

        What makes it all difficult is the meanness of spirit I know that is accompanying all these wolf hunts. It isn’t like hunting deer or elk. A meat hunter friend of mine once told me “When you stop feeling bad about killing an animal, it’s time to stop.”

        • avatar Mark L says:

          Leslie said,
          “What makes it all difficult is the meanness of spirit I know that is accompanying all these wolf hunts.”
          Trust me, it’s all been done before. 200 years ago it was Indians (in most of the country…still in some). We had to accept a new paradigm just to get over that (darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that).
          A lot (OK…some) of the recent predator hunting now is just ‘posers’…people taking a picture after they got the animal and bragging. Take that away and how many really want to hunt predators? The real hate is the ones left, like distilling.

        • avatar Harley says:


          your profile picture, is that from where you live? It’s breath taking!

    • avatar JEFF E says:

      sorry to hear about that.
      should make the Maine jellyfish happy however.
      scumbuckets are like that

  93. avatar Louise Kane says:

    Reposted from Mother Jones – California is doing some good things lately!

    Could California’s Prop 37 Kill Monsanto’s GMO Seeds?
    You’d be forgiven for not noticing—unless you live in California, where you’ve likely been bombarded by geotargeted web ads and TV spots—but this election could spur a revolution in the way our food is made.

    Proposition 37, a popular Golden State ballot initiative, would require the labeling of food containing genetically modified (GM) ingredients. The food and agriculture industries are spending millions to defeat it, and with good reason: As we’ve seen with auto emissions standards and workplace smoking bans, as California goes, so goes the nation.

    If California voters do approve the labeling requirement will likely have far-reaching effects—including changing the way that agribiz companies like Monsanto operate. [READ MORE]

  94. avatar Salle says:

    Here’s some good news, sort of. He did have 18 months taken from him after all, for performing a simple act of civil disobedience, not violence… his actions were an attempt to bring attention to violence against the public trust. At least he brought major attention to the issue for a time.

    Climate Campaigner Tim DeChristopher Released From Prison
    Activist calls for “genuine justice” in court system

  95. avatar Salle says:

    GOP Rep. Promises To ‘Reverse This Trend Of Public Ownership Of Lands’

  96. avatar Salle says:

    And, to be sure that science won’t be a bother to House R’s should they retain ownership of that end of Congress…

    Rachel Maddow offers some clarity to what’s at stake:

  97. avatar Sam Parks says:

    The Chokecherry wind farm has been approved by Ken Salazar. A sad day for sage grouse and golden eagles in south-central Wyoming.

    At least he’s honest about the motives:
    “Salazar says he’s proud that the project has put the Department over its goal to generate 10-thousand megawatts of renewable energy on public land in 2012.”

  98. avatar Louise Kane says:

    Posted from Wolfwatcher

    this damn bill again being shoved down our throats

    Vote/Share to OPPOSE S.3525 AND HR.4089

    Senate Bill 3525 (Sportsmen’s Act of 2012), advanced on Sept. 22, when the Senate voted 84-7 for the motion to proceed for a November vote. As you know, this bill and its House companion bill H.R. 4089 (The “Sportsmen’s Heritage Act of 2012”) combines several anti-wildlife and anti-wild lands proposals into a single VERY dangerous bill.

    If SB 3525 passes the Senate vote in November, it will move to conference with HR 4089 and be close to passing to the President for signature.

    Among other terrible measures:
    1 – much of the national park system would be opened to hunting, fishing, and trapping, and that off-road vehicle use could expand greatly in backcounty areas, including officially designated wilderness.
    2 – it prevents federal agencies from reviewing the impacts of hunting on non-tartget species or their habitats under the National Environmental Policy Act
    3 – it would also open the door to new logging, mining and extraction of fossil fuels on public lands – a measure that has the potential to gut the Antiquities Act which gives the President of the United States, by executive order, the power to restrict the use of particular public lands owned by the federal government
    4 – it amends the Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA) to allow for the importation of polar bear “trophies” from Canada that are presented as having been taken prior to the May 2008 Endangered Species Act listing.
    5 – it removes the ability of the EPA to protect wildlife and people from lead poisoning through toxic ammunition exposure.

    Sign in to Wolfwatcher’s Legislative Campaign and vote to OPPOSE these bills. When doing so, your vote sends an immediate email to your senator and representative telling them your position.

    OPPOSE S. 3525 –

    OPPOSE H. 4089 –

    • avatar Salle says:

      The problem here is that it could well end up as a rider like the delisting BS did.

      • avatar Louise Kane says:

        yeah they aren’t giving up on this. It really pisses me off. The expanded hunting portion is bad enough but there are also provisions to prevent NEPA review for effects on non target species and their habitats as well as a provision to prevent EPA from regulating lead bullets. I especially despise sneaky attempts to overturn legislation that was designed to protect the general public, the environment or public rescources from harm.

  99. avatar Salle says:

    Yellowstone River tributary benefitting from $20M project

    (This is related to Soda Butte Creek which flows through YNP’s NW corner and into the Lamar River.)

  100. avatar Salle says:

    Heaven forbid wildlife should have something to eat at the expense of hunters!

    No bull, bulls only

    Declining elk population results in new hunt rules

    Of course, the “usual suspects – wolves” are to blame.

    “Phil Cooper, Idaho Department of Fish and Game regional conservation officer, said declining elk numbers due to wolves and other predators prompted this year’s rule. Something had to be done to improve the calf-cow survival rate, he said.”

  101. avatar Salle says:

    [Wyoming] Meeting on Game and Fish funding

    Now that the federal teat wolf management cash flow has dried up…

    • avatar Mark L says:

      The guy from Georgia’s comment below the article is funny also…though he probably doesn’t get why (blaming wolves for threatening elk, not knowing he can almost walk to Tennesse and get an elk).

    • avatar CodyCoyote says:

      Salle- the State of Wyoming has long complained about the small amount of money they get from Fish & Wildlife to help administer the management of Grizzlies and later, Wolves. The Threatened and Endangered line items in the Wyo G&F Budget ( I have the FY 2010 document open as I write this)

      Basically, Wyoming G&F budget states that 1 percent of their revenue comes in for T & E species , but it amounts to 4 percent of expenses. They spend $ 4.00 for every dollar in revenue ,towards Griz and Wolves . USFWS only gave Wyoming about $50,000 a year for Grizzlies , but Wyo G&F claims they spent $ 1.97 million just on bears. Oddly enough , even tho0ugh Game & Fish was not in charge of Wolf management or doing the ‘ wet work’ in recent years since the wolves were relisted in 2008 (9?), they still somehow were able to budget $ 400,000 for Wolf Management. That same year the Wyo G&F recieved $ 16.6 million in direct federal aid/grants ( mostly dedicated funding but hard to parse from afar ).

      I’m thinking that Wyo G&F is hearing hoofbeats behind as they run towards the handwriting on the big stone wall that has the Fiscal Cliff on the other side of it : that federal funding is going to be severely cut, regardless of whether we go thru the gate over the cliff. Federal aid makes up almost a quarter of Wyo Game and Fish’s total gross operating budget, and guess what ?—we now have to come up with $ 1-2 million per annum for state Wolf management.

      Be careful what you ask for, Wyoming conservatives…when you ask for less federal government presence and more state control of your resources, somebody still has to pay for management in the end. Wolves will cost Wyoming as much as or more than grizzlies. But whose money will be used ?— because all 2,000 wolf licenses sold at $ 18.00 each only raised $ 360,000, a fraction of the cost of administering the animal thus and so.

      • avatar CodyCoyote says:

        Correction: Bad math from me…two thousand wolf tags at $ 18.00 each is $ 36,000 , not ten times that amount as I typed above. Lo siento.

      • avatar Emma Mar says:

        No answer to your own question Cody? Is federal dollars your answer?

  102. avatar Salle says:

    Hunters ready for 1st wolf hunts in Wis., Minn.
    “For years, vacationers and farmers across northern Wisconsin and Minnesota have heard the eerie howl of the gray wolf and fretted the creatures were lurking around their cabins and pastures, eying up Fido or Bessie. The tables are about to turn: Both states plan to launch their first organized wolf hunts in the coming weeks.

    Geezus, the fear mongering continues.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      yellow journalism at its best. If you love wolves and wildlife, the beauty of fall is compromised by the evidence of dead and dying animals that are seen strapped to trucks or dangling open mouthed and glassy eyed on the tailgate of a vehicle. Its difficult to enjoy fall knowing that this is the time to really step up killing. This new season that opened up killing of wolves in more states, is almost to much to bear. Now even more people that truly hate wolves can legally torture and kill them, even the pups who are not even close to adulthood. I can not imagine the stress of living in a place where you are never safe. It makes me ashamed to be human most days.

    • avatar Rita K. Sharpe says:

      Somethings never change.

  103. avatar Ida Lupine says:

    I wonder if anything will change after the election. I sense a “get while the gettin’s good” mentality.

  104. avatar Salle says:

    New Huge Oil Slick Traced to BP Disaster
    Experts concerned well still leaking

    Years ago, the Board of Game by a majority of one simply deleted the Denali wolf buffer zone that had been wrangelled over for years, and put the topic off limits until 2016. They made the decision on the rationale was that there was no conservation concern with wolves in the area, which is true, but they abdicated their other responsibility which is resource allocation (one of their most important purposes is to shield the management agency from such decisions). Resource allocation requires taking into account socio-economic factors. A wolf hide (aside from the gorgeous NWT tundra specimens) goes for about $150-300, and most of the trapping in the former buffer zone has been done by one individual (and he seemed to catch plenty of wolves even when the buffer zone was in effect). On the other hand, since Romeo was done in, about the only place I know of in this state where a person who specifically wanted to see a wolf had a good chance of doing so was in Denali.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      “On the other hand, since Romeo was done in, about the only place I know of in this state where a person who specifically wanted to see a wolf had a good chance of doing so was in Denali.”

      Alaska is so vast so huge not to see wolves regularly is a travesty especially as you point out when one person is involved in a trapping activity that deprives many of the experience of seeing and enjoying wolves. People were outraged by Romeo’s death which suggests a core support for wolves.

      • avatar ma'iingan says:

        “Alaska is so vast so huge not to see wolves regularly is a travesty…”

        Spent any time in Alaska, Louise? You don’t just drive around looking for wolves – even in areas with high moose density, wolves are on the landscape at about one per 25 square miles, and in many areas occur at closer to one per 100 square miles.

        And in addition to low densities, much of the population is inaccessible to the casual tourist. Not exactly a wolf-watcher’s mecca, but how is that a “travesty”?

        • avatar Louise Kane says:

          Ma’iingan yes I have actually been fortunate to spend some good time in Alaska, both in Prince William Sound on a research vessel and in various parts of the state. My brother in law lived in Anchorage for many years and I have some good friends there. No more than 6 weeks at once but enough to get a good feel and see some amazing places. Seems like we disagree on most everything and thats ok with me. Your making my point…Alaska has a lot of great habitat for wolves, the one that was very well know was killed. if wolves can’t be tolerated here, that seems like a tragedy to me.

          • avatar ma'iingan says:

            “Alaska has a lot of great habitat for wolves, the one that was very well know was killed. if wolves can’t be tolerated here, that seems like a tragedy to me.”

            And there are up to 11,000 wolves thriving in this habitat – I’d say they’re tolerated pretty well.

            And lamenting the death of an habituated, food-conditioned wolf that was being fed by residents? C’mon Louise – certainly you’ve heard the expression “a fed bear is a dead bear”? It works for wolves too.

            “Like his namesake, Romeo crossed a dangerous social boundary and for that he paid with his life. To be sure, those men wielding the guns hold the bulk of responsibility. But the folks who cared so much for Romeo also bear some of that burden.

            A lone wolf is no wolf at all. Romeo needed a pack. With no other wolves to choose from, he tried to build a foster pack of pet dogs, and by extension, their owners. These were the people who failed Romeo. Instead of rebuffing him, they encouraged him.

            Many of them should have known better—wildlife photographers and nature writers; the residents of Mendenhall Valley who presumably should have more sense than tourists when it comes to feeding and encouraging wildlife. And most importantly, wildlife authorities and biologists who are entrusted to look out for the best interests of animals like Romeo.

            Because he had been conditioned to trust humans, Romeo was a sitting duck for two men looking for an easy kill. But rather than protect him from that inevitability, officials caved to community pressure.”

    • avatar DLB says:

      You drying out up there yet, Seak? After more than two months of dry weather here in Seattle, it appears the weather gods are turning the spigot back on.

      • avatar SEAK Mossback says:

        DLB —

        Well right at the moment there is fresh snow coming down on the patches of snow on the mountainside across the channel that didn’t melt all summer. We just had a beautiful stint of weather that seemed like a delayed summer, but it is back to drizzle now at sea level. This deep negative PDO trend is pretty amazing. The trailing 12 months (Sept-Aug) was the lowest (coldest) since 1971 and August itself was the lowest for that month since 1955. The really depressing thing here is it’s a known killer for Alaska salmon survival, with a lag trailing over quite some time. The opposite holds in the California Current system of course, with enhanced upwelling, production and improved salmon survival off the Lower 48 — but the western US pays for it in a big way with drought and fire in a pattern that has been reconstructed back to 993, explaining many things including possibly disappearance of the Anasazi. Everything has been pretty quiet so far from the climatologists who seem to be calling it a La Nina event, with no mention yet of the word “Regime Shift” (implying decades of future cold PDO) that strikes terror in Alaska coastal communities. Of course, the last two times they called “Regime Shift” in 1989 and 1998, proved not to stick so they may be a little reticent by this point. I notice the trailing 10-year average PDO was more variable than any other back to 1900, with the exception of 1949-50 (decade spanning exactly the 1940s), making forecasting even less certain.

        Anyway, I’m hoping for, but not counting on another stint of delayed summer during my 32nd consecutive annual 10 day field trip to the headwaters of a river north of here — always a highlight of my year, even in years with poor weather.

  106. avatar Salle says:

    Okay, this is not only interesting, it’s strange…

    Huge eyeball from unknown creature washes ashore on Florida beach,0,2071938.story

  107. avatar Salle says:

    Is brucellosis a wildlife or livestock problem? FWP hears debate over issue

    “For the second time in a month, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Commission members heard about efforts to learn more about the extent of brucellosis in elk populations and possible ways to deal with it.

  108. avatar Salle says:

    Local groups sue to stop wolverine trapping

    “Montana state law requires Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks to ‘assist in the maintenance or recovery’ of wolverines. We hoped to avoid litigation when we filed our petition in August. Unfortunately, the state refused to consider the science included in our petition and halt the needless trapping of these imperiled animals,” said Matthew Bishop, an attorney with the Western Environmental Law Center who is representing the groups. “So now we’re compelled to follow the only course left open to us, which is to seek judicial review.”

    The lawsuit was filed in Lewis and Clark District Court by Helena Hunters and Anglers Association, Friends of the Wild Swan, Montana Ecosystem Defense Council, Native Ecosystems Council, the Alliance for the Wild Rockies, the Swan View Coalition, Wild Earth Guardians, Footloose Montana and George Wuerthner.”

    Thank you to all of he above!


  109. avatar Salle says:

    Gov. Martinez: Relocate Mexican gray wolf pack

    In a recent letter to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Gov. Susana Martinez wrote that the Fox Mountain Mexican wolf pack in Catron County has created significant concerns and is affecting the psychological well-being of families, and the agency should use a clause in the reintroduction program to remove the endangered wolves.

    “I request that the USFWS immediately capture and relocate the entire pack to an area where they will not negatively impact the lives of New Mexico citizens,” Martinez wrote. “The livestock owners who have been impacted need to be made whole as allowed by the program.”

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      Unbelievable what arrogance and ignorance

      • avatar Salle says:

        I’m thinking these folks had psychological problems long before the wolves came back… 😉

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      Every state seems to be scrutinizing their laws very closely, looking for any way possible to get rid of them. What I don’t understand is why, it is very irrational. What a terrible, collossal mistake move to allow the delising. It looks like this adminisration is indifferent to cruelty. It has me shaking my head and wondering, is this the place they want to re-introduce the jaguar? If we can’t even manage 50 or so endangered wolves…

      • avatar Mark L says:

        If people in the south had used the same argument with blacks in the 60’s where would we be now? “they’re just scary….make them leave!”
        The Governor is pandering to an affuent and vocal minority.

  110. avatar Salle says:

    Fish on the line
    Pallid sturgeon persevered for 70 million years. Why are they struggling now in Montana?

  111. avatar jon says:

    The comments are very troubling and disturbing.

    • avatar jon says:

      Comments like that it’s no surprise that non-hunters are turning against hunters.

      • avatar Harley says:

        Agreed Jon.

      • avatar SAP says:

        Yep, seriously f’d up. This is not the language of “ethical sportsmen” who value wolves as a game animal. This is the language of violent, selfish, poorly adjusted people.

        Minor detail (I really don’t want to go back and look again) – I couldn’t follow their chatter about the wolf’s weight. But, for f’s sake, the animal is right there by the road. Go weigh it! Find out that it maybe would go 110. Oh, but that would take away the fun of speculating.

        I bought a hunting license, I have rifle and ammo, I am likely to go forth and hunt elk this fall. But people like this make me cringe at calling myself “a hunter.”

        • avatar Louise Kane says:

          SAP, Harley I can’t bring myself to look at that link/ image tonight. I can only imagine,I’ve seen hundreds of such horrible sights on other websites and read hundreds of horrific comments by some really sick people. The vile and sick behavior that we see all over the internet that celebrates killing wild animals is increasing. There is so much potential for abuse when people can legally trophy hunt, that its criminal to let these thugs out there and allow them to do whatever they want to wildlife. What right do we have to kill animals for fun? Nothing is safe ever from humans. To know that people who treat animals like garbage, that abuse and torture them legally makes me want to act like a character in the Monkey Wrench Gang or a crazed terrorist in one of C Hiassen’s novels.

          • avatar SAP says:

            Louise, it’s a road killed wolf.

            I wonder, would wolf hunting be so poorly received if people would show a little respect toward the wolves, and maybe stop treating the wolf as just a means of sticking a thumb in the pro-wolf tribe’s eye?

            • avatar Savebears says:

              I was a bit surprised that one of the comments was from a person in Great Britain.

            • avatar Harley says:

              SAP I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with that.

            • avatar jon says:

              The thing is these people who kill wolves and coyotes don’t care about these animals at all. If they did, they wouldn’t be killing them in the first place. The hate that some hunters have for wolves and coyotes is extremely disturbing and disgusting, but not surprising in the least.

            • avatar jon says:

              Hi sap, I think you said before that you live in Montana. The hunters that you have talked to in Montana, what are their views like on wolves? I am not surprised at those comments. You find comments like that all the time if you visit a hunting website that talks about wolves or coyotes. Calling a road killed wolf a bastard or wishing you ran him over with a car really is sad.

          • avatar Ida Lupine says:

            I’ve seen enough to last me a lifetime also, I don’t bother to look that much anymore. I knew that some of these guys wouldn’t be able to contain themselves and would have to start posting and bragging online – some of it may be exaggerated, I’m sure.

            Lord forgive me, I find myself praying for Karma to meet some of these guys in the form of a grizzly bear out in the back country – talk about losing an eye! Hooray!

            Trouble is, these fraidy cats wouldn’t dare go out into the backcountry like a man to hunt, and would rather park their butt-crack visible behinds near a national park and wait for an animal. Probably in the ranks of wife beaters and dog kickers too, who like to pick on those weaker than themselves (physically weaker, anyway!). Sorry! I do respect real, ethical hunters greatly, not legalized sadism.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      This was one of the comments left in the comment section for the questions abound before Wisconsin wolf hunt. The behaviors that the writer cites are hopefully not common but I think they are becoming more common and the potential for unscrupulous, or deranged and sick people to legally act while registered as hunters has to stop. We do need wildlife anti cruelty laws, more rigorous hunting exams, and to abolish killing for sport. Its not healthy for society, the environment or wildlife.

      MAGRN – 9 minutes ago
      I think requiring hunters to eat what they kill is a really good rule of thumb to go by, because otherwise you are reducing it to the typical…”IF IT MOVES KILL IT” mentality. Sighting one such incident here in the NW part of our beautiful state. A group of boys one night ransacked several seasonal cottages, then went to a Turkey farm and bludgeoned 35 turkeys to death and left the carcasses, then tied a black lab female and all her puppies to the tailgate of their pick up and drove around till they were all skinless and dead. This coupled with the man who had “relations” with a dead deer show exactly how far this has been taken in this area of the country. I am totally against “YOUTH HUNTS” for this reason. Desensitizing our youth to the act of killing a living thing is not something that should be taken lightly and should be accompanied by extensive training and in some cases psychological profiles should be obtained.

      Read more:

      • avatar skyrim says:

        This is a sad commentary on society in general. The parents would not like to see their role in this, and instead use the “kids being kids” BS.
        These clowns better prepare for their individual role in the prison population, ’cause that’s were they’re headed.

        • avatar Nancy says:

          No Skyrim, this is far more than sad….

          Its a sick reflection and insight to a disturbing, growing population of our own species, who lack any kind of respect, or concern, for life other than their own little narrow minded/ pathetic exposure to it.

    • avatar Savebears says:


      Would you please post some of the issues from the state you live in, Please!

      • avatar jon says:

        sb, I will post whatever I want and you do the same. Don’t be concerned with what I post.

        • avatar Savebears says:


          I will be concerned with what I want to be concerned with, just as you do, don’t get on your high horse, you have nothing to do with who becomes governor or wildlife commissioner in the state of Montana.

        • avatar Savebears says:

          It is really to bad, you don’t put your efforts to improving your state, if we all concentrated on our states and working on improving things, then the country as a whole would be a hell of a lot better off. The people you elect in your state can have a strong influence in the United States, far more than you even know!

          • avatar josh sutherland says:

            Jon lives in Australia… Just so ya know. 🙂

            • avatar Louise Kane says:

              what difference does it make where Jon lives? There are people from all over the world watching the issue of wolves and wildlife in the west. You don’t have to live in Montana or the west to recognize bad policy or to appreciate the natural resources and wish they were not being squandered with such determined short sightedness. Nor does it take an instate resident to recognize that trapping is cruelty not a form of cultural identity that needs to be perpetuated. Its banned in most countries and other states.

    • avatar Ralph Maughan says:

      Robert Fanning finished dead last among the many candidates for the Republican nomination for governor.

      Despite Fanning’s talk, he is a transplant to Montana from the Chicago area.

  112. avatar jon says:

    The Wisconsin bear hunters association and safari club international want houndsmen to be allowed to use dogs to hunt wolves. This is troubling, but not surprising.

  113. avatar SEAK Mossback says:
    One of the last two refugees from the 1989 Exxon Oil spill dies at 23 1/2 (the remaining survivor is 24). That seems quite old for a mustelid, but she had a first class medical/dental plan.

  114. avatar Salle says:

    Primates in peril – conservationists reveal the world’s 25 most endangered primates–conservationists-reveal-the-worlds-25-most-endangered-primates

  115. avatar Wm Bova says:

    Unfortunate Forest Workers partially consumed body discovered near Sitka, Alaska. A sow and her cubs acted aggressively toward civilians that stopped to investigate a disabled boat along the shoreline. Officials were called and were able to recover the body for autopsy. It will be interesting to see if they will destroy her and take the cubs. If they are a couple of years old, they too may lose their lives.

    • avatar SEAK Mossback says:

      Interesting — it seems like nearly all of the really predatory attacks by brown bears (where they’ve come right in and killed and eaten somebody and defended the remains), in this region and state have been by males while the vast majority of defensive attacks are by sows (with or without cubs). But of course there are no rules.

      As an aside, the particular location where the victim went ashore has a grim history. About 150 Aleut otter hunters (brought to Southeast by Russians) died after eating mussels containing lethal levels of paralytic shellfish toxin during a rest stop in Poison Cove in 1799.

      • avatar Wm Bova says:

        I know the area has had a major conflict between the natives and Russians that left hundreds dead many moons ago.

        Another interesting fact is this area has the highest density of Browns in Alaska. The worker had bags of groceries which I’m sure lured the bears in, but she and her cubs had to be in lousy shape to attack as there is more than enough to eat in that area prior to denning.

        • avatar SEAK Mossback says:

          I’ve got a crew working on a salmon weir over on West Chichagof until the 25th. It is only the second year for these folks, but she just mentioned this morning that the bears are obviously much hungrier than this time last year. It is somewhat a normal pattern as you get into October as the only thing left at this stage is cohos and they are not as widespread as pinks & chums and are harder to catch. She said the bears are all over the few cohos that are starting to spawn.

          • avatar Wm Bova says:

            They killed one of the cubs, which leads me to believe it was very mature. They will also do the same to the sow and the other cub if found. Autopsy is underway.

            Doesn’t sound like a good year for hyperphagia with fish in short supply.

  116. avatar Louise Kane says:

    FYI for those of you in MIchigan


    Please spread the word widely across the campus and community about these upcoming talks on Michigan Tech campus Oct 18-19. A flyer is attached.
    Navigating Environmental Attitudes
    Two Presentations by Tom Heberlein on Oct. 18, 2012
    2-4 PM – A River Runs through it: Lessons from Rivers & Lakes

    Location: 202 Great Lakes Research Center

    Book signing, informal discussion, refreshments to follow. Open to the public.

    7 PM – Navigating Environmental Attitudes: Lessons from Wolves

    Location: G002 Hesterberg Hall, Forestry Building

    Book signing and refreshments to follow. Open to the public.

    Friday, October 19:

    12:00pm- The Role of the Social Scientist in Environmental Research and Management

    Location: 201 Academic Office Building
    Department of Social Science Brown Bag discussion, all welcome

    Tom Heberlein, an environmental sociologist, is Professor Emeritus in the Dept. of Community and Environmental Sociology and the Gaylord Nelson Institute of Environmental Studies at the Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison, and currently a visiting professor in the Dept. of Wildlife, Fish and Environmental Studies in the College of Forestry in Umeå, Sweden. Heberlein served as the Director of the Center for Resource Policy Studies and Programs at UW-Madison. His research has been recognized by the Rural Sociological Society as well as by the Association of Environmental and Resource Economists. He has served on National Research Council Committees investigating Forest Management in the Pacific Northwest, Preservation of Natural Diversity in Transboundary Areas, Science in the National Parks, and the Demand for Outdoor Recreation. In 2006 he accompanied a special Swedish Commission on large Carnivores and Wolves to the United States. In May 2012 he presented his research on attitudes toward wolves at the Swedish Parliament. These lectures are drawn from Heberlein’s recently published book, Navigating Environmental Attitudes (Oxford University Press).”

    Co-sponsored by:

    MTU Department of Social Sciences MTU Environmental & Energy Policy Program

    Great Lakes Research Center Lake Superior Stewardship Initiative Keweenaw Land Trust

    Michigan Tech Center for Water & Society Keweenaw Unitarian Universalist Fellowship

    Green Lecture Series program is partially funded with a grant from:

    League of Women Voters of the Copper Country

    Friends of the Land of Keweenaw U.P. Environmental Coalition

    If you would like to schedule a meeting with Professor Heberlein, please contact Richelle Winkler (

    Richelle Winkler
    Assistant Professor of Sociology and Demography
    Environment and Energy Policy Program
    Department of Social Sciences
    Michigan Technological University
    217 Academic Office Building
    (906) 487-1886

  117. avatar Mike says:

    Greetings from Mammoth, everyone.

    Got involved with the rangers last night thanks to some local goons who fed a coyote a hot dog. Working with them again today….always drama in the parks. Almost all of the stupid behavior I see is from Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming residents.

    Yellowstone wildlife is slowest I’ve ever seen. Glacier was the opposite. Incredible viewing.

  118. avatar amanda says:

    Florida panthers could be relocated further north-

  119. avatar CodyCoyote says:

    Latest Box Score on Wolves killed in Wyoming from the hunting season is 24 , as of Tuesday afternoon Oct. 16

    That’s about the halfway point of the statewide quota of 52

  120. avatar Salle says:

    FWP Investigating Three Separate Grizzly Bear Deaths

    Two dead bears were killed for being near or getting into chicken coops.

  121. avatar Salle says:

    Project looks at energy and eagles
    GPS transmitters record birds’ locations, habits

  122. avatar Salle says:

    Protected Species May be Killed by Proposed Prairie Dog Control, Environmental Groups Charge

    ” Defenders of Wildlife, American Bird Conservancy, Natural Resources Defense Council, and Audubon of Kansas have urged the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to reject an application by Scimetrics to use the rodenticide Kaput-D for the control of black-tailed prairie dogs in Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, Montana, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Texas and Wyoming.

    The groups say that because Kaput-D, which contains the anticoagulant diphacinone that causes poisoned animals to bleed to death, is not selective in the animals it impacts, it has a high probability of killing non-target wildlife, including species protected under the Endangered Species Act, the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act, and the Migratory Bird Treaty Act.”

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      I’m so tired of reading about people treating the Earth as if were their own personal trash dump. Using poisons such as these in the environment, and not a thought as to what happens in the chain of events that follows. This is not 200 years ago when wildlife was more plentiful and there were less people (not that it was a good thing or ok back then either). This is not even 100 years ago.

      Birds and wildlife are getting hammered from all fronts – habitat destruction from development, human activities and pets, pesticides, energy. Bird populations are steadily declining, and with threats from massive windfarms looming ahead and continued population growth, it doesn’t look good for the future of some of our most beloved birds. Wind farms are geting exemptions from the ESA regarding raptor collisions, for example, and the Federal government is considering extending these exemptions for another 30 years! So much for Ken Salazar’s assurance that “everything to the extent possible” will be done to reduce wildlife conflicts!

      This kind of thoughtless behavior towards wildlife and the environment needs to stop.

  123. avatar Salle says:

    Apparently the State of Montana has a public comment period (closes at 5pm Nov. 5) regarding “pan tension” for wolf traps in regions 1 & 2 (between Glacier and Kalispell areas). So they say the proposed tension is 8lbs. I’m not sure if that’s enough. They say this comment period is presented out of concern for the Lynx population but there are other non-target species, like wolverines and…? that weigh about the same amount so I have a bunch of questions about that.

    Aside form the fact that I oppose trapping in the first place, anyone know about whether this proposal makes sense and is it prudent enough to potentially protect these particular non-target species?

    • avatar ma'iingan says:

      Eight pounds is what I normally use for adult wolves, and pretty much guarantees that we won’t catch smaller animals.

      For comparison, when I’ve been involved in radio-collaring bobcats our standard pan tension is two pounds.

      • avatar Salle says:

        Hmmm, could you explain a little about pan tension and how this weight is assessed and applied? Not being a trapper or having ever been around that in a first-jand context, I am curious about that. Thanks.

        • avatar ma'iingan says:

          The traps I use have a stack of thin leaf springs under the pan – each leaf representing two pounds of force required to trip the pan. By adding or removing springs, the trapper can be fairly certain of excluding animals lighter than his target species.

          Eight pounds, coupled with the fact that the pan is buried under a layer of dirt, works well for adult wolves.

          • avatar Salle says:


            Thank you. I was wondering how eight pounds would be a sufficient weight for tripping the pan for specific species, I wasn’t including the dirt cover part in my process. It makes sense, mechanically. It just seems like a “hair trigger” sort of thing and I was trying to picture the whole thing and assessing it with regard to the weight of some of the non-target species. So if a forty pound lynx comes along, it would require it to actually “jump” on the pan (area) to activate it?

            Does that also apply for snares or is there some other system of activation for those?

            • avatar ma'iingan says:

              A smaller animal would have to do something unusual to spring a trap that was properly set for wolves. And in the case of felids, they almost certainly would steer a wide path around the scents that are commonly used to lure wolves.

              Snares, or their non-lethal counterparts, cable restraints, are positioned at the proper height and loop diameter to reduce incidental take.

              And again, baits can also help in targeting specific species. For instance, cable restraints for wolves are about the right size and height for deer but deer are repelled by the wolf and coyote urine that are used as a lure. Or the cable restraint can be positioned by a wolf-killed carcass, with relative certainty that deer will avoid the area.

            • avatar Salle says:


              Thanks again. Since I don’t know much about this I appreciate your information. I did read Carter Niemeyer’s book and learned a lot about the scents and some of the trapping devices but those specific points didn’t occur to me while I was trying to discover more about this topic. Not being familiar with the practice these finer points don’t just come to mind automatically. Thanks for helping me get better idea on what the proposal for public comment is about.

    • avatar elk275 says:

      I wondered the same. I have set many traps when I was in grade school. The traps that I set didn’t have any tension adjustment settings. The traps that are being sold today do not have any tension, unless I am missing something.

      • avatar elk275 says:

        Thanks Ma’iingan I was missing something. I have never seen traps with left springs.

        • avatar ma'iingan says:

          @elk275 –

          Some wolf traps, like the popular MB750 coil spring traps, adjust pan tension by means of a screw rather than leaf springs.

          • avatar elk275 says:

            Hi tech has come to the trapping world. My grade school traps were double or single springs. The only animal that I ever caught was a skunk ending my trapping career.

            • avatar Immer Treue says:

              Skunks! Easy to trap… One of the funniest things I’ve ever seen was this skunk running around in this large repetitive circle with a yogurt cup stuck on it’s head. No good Samaratins in the crowd.

  124. avatar Louise Kane says:

    reposting from the WCCL

    how can any wild animal navigate the maize of poisons, traps, hunters and other ways they are killed!

    • avatar Salle says:


      I posted an article, earlier today, about that in which several wildlife and bird conservation groups are opposing this EPA decision to allow the use of this stuff. Guess they’ll be seeking judicial review in the future.

    • avatar Mark L says:

      It IS starting to sound a lot like SE Asia after the Vietnam war. More than likely, we’ll never know how many of each species are caught in traps/snares/poisoned as the ‘discoverer’ of the animal may have a financial benefit not to report it (many are honest though). Personally, I hate the poisons as they are much harder to ‘direct’ towards a specific species or population, and just like with land mines the young are usually hit hardest.

  125. avatar Wm Bova says:

    F&G in NW Montana reports 3 grizzlies shot in the last week. Two breaking into chicken coups by owners, and one carcass shot by unknown shooter. Also bird hunter was charged by a sow w/cub and a shot was taken. The incident was reported, and follow up indicates sow and cub appear to be fine.

    As the bear proliferates and multiplies, competition for any food source will create these conflicts. Lots of isolated uninhabited grizzly territory available and can be used if they would spend the money to copter them in.

  126. avatar Salle says:

    Game herds steady, growing in some areas

    “Some areas – in particular the upper Clark Fork River basin – remain over the target population set by biologists with the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks.

    Others – notably in the Madison Valley – have been brought down after years of liberal regulations that aimed to reduce the herd and get it more in line with what’s acceptable to ranchers. Those regulations included second elk tags and more opportunity for hunters to kill cows with a general license for part or all of the season and they have worked to bring elk numbers down in several areas.”

    The Madison Valley part is interesting since there’s been so many elk and so much flap about how the wolves have been allegedly eating them all like potato chips You hear the same about moose, I saw two just the other day in a place where local folks whine about there not being any, and where about four have been hit by vehicles in the past eight months…

    • avatar Ralph Maughan says:

      So Montana FWP got the elk numbers down to a level that did not piss off the ranchers, and hunters blames wolves for the decline.

      Of course, few know enough to blame ranchers.

    • avatar SAP says:

      Re Madison Valley – I would guess that in part, FWP is also trying to cut down on the free-for-all shootouts that went with over-the-counter antlerless tags. We’d get these big mobs of elk out on the flats, they’d get surrounded by shooters, and mayhem would ensue. Would love to have that be a thing of the past — it was ugly. OTC antlerless tags encouraged shooters to come down here and drive around, waiting for elk to set foot on public lands, then taking long stupid shots. Getting rid of OTC anterless tags won’t totally do away with that, but it should cut down on the number of casual shooters who decided it was too cold or too much work to hunt elsewhere, so they’d come here.

      • avatar Salle says:


        I was hoping you’d bring that up. I make that argument from time to time but I think you speak with more authority about it than I do.

        One thing I have noticed is that the elk and deer aren’t stupid. The deer head for town and ranch houses, hang out in everybody’s yards, and the elk go mix in with the cattle that are still out on flats. You see these guys with their scopes waiting around in the pullouts along the highway and on the ranch roads waiting for the elk to get far enough from the cattle or, as you said, public land.

        Good place to see lots of eagles waiting for the gut piles though…

  127. avatar Peter Kiermeir says:

    Shoot Coyotes, win Assault Rifle
    Ah, another of these ever-popular mass killing contests – this time in NM.

  128. avatar Nancy says:

    This may have been posted in the past but still a good read:

  129. avatar CodyCoyote says:

    Just when you thought the debate over free roaming Bison in Montana could not get any more convoluted, it’s gotten more convoluted. Ranchers in NE Montana along the Missouri adjacent to the C M Russell Wildlife Preserve have joined together to close off their lands to hunters in protest of Bison reintroduction. Front page above the fold in today’s Billings Gazette:

    Bison vs. Boneheads. What do the ranchers hope to obtain here? – there’s still millions of acres of huntable land in those quadrants on Montana. The silver lining seen with a cynical view is all the other wildlife that now have a Safe Zone to take sanctuary in. Those misguided ranchers can feed Deer all winter that would otherwise have been harvested. Since we’re in a major drought, that’s probably a good thing.

    • avatar Mark L says:

      Any irony in cattle and sheep ranchers objecting to indigenous bison being reintroduced to a nearby Indian reservation? Wonder if the roles were reversed how they would feel. Oh wait, 200 years ago they were….and the Indians weren’t happy either.

  130. avatar Louise Kane says:

    can anyone out there provide me with accurate or agree on wolf populations for Idaho, Montana, Wyoming before delisting and after hunts. I need the info to counter a claim at a meeting this evening that there are currently 1200 wolves in Idaho with growing population and 1700 in Montana. Am trying to write a handout with very little time

    Could also use info on GL populations

    if you know please provide citation or source and thank you very much

  131. avatar salle says:



    (can only post one link at a time for expediency)

  132. avatar Salle says:

    Montana’s Hunting Access in the Line of Fire

  133. avatar Salle says:

    Wow. I just saw something truly unusual. I think I may have just seen an albino chickadee! I have looked through all my bird watching field guides and have seen nothing like it. I was sitting in my cabin and bird in the tree outside my window caught my eye because of the flash of white… we don’t have any all white birds around here, not that size and body style at least. It flew to a nearby tree where I could look at it with binos for a minute or two. It was just shy of pure white, had very light gray markings like that of a chickadee. Where a chickadee would have dark gray and black, this bird had only light gray, same markings and size of a chickadee. It acted like a chickadee and sounded like a chickadee, had same markings only the color was absent or extremely pale… a new one for me!

    • avatar Nancy says:

      Very cool 🙂

      • avatar Salle says:

        It was for me! I love to watch all birds and animals and seeing something new is pretty exciting.

        A friend and I took a drive up and down the Madison River between West Yellowstone and Ennis today. We saw several bald eagles, a Merlin, a few big horn sheep and five mountain goats, two were youngsters. Same with the sheep, there were about seven and at least two were youngsters. And most of the humans we saw were hunters in trucks.

    • avatar Salle says:

      Interesting that they acknowledged that the possibility of a “shootout” exists and that’s what prompted this action.

  134. avatar Immer Treue says:

    Livestock wolf killing controversy reignited

    Stevens county cattleman’s association urges members NOT to sign on to use of non-lethal wolf control methods.

  135. avatar Salle says:

    Study for Shell’s Jackpine oilsands mine predicts big losses in animal habitat

    Interesting additional article links in the side bar.

  136. avatar Salle says:

    Wolf kill: Will there have to be more?

    SEATTLE — Taking aim from a helicopter flying over northeastern Washington state, a marksman last month killed the alpha male of a wolf pack that had repeatedly attacked a rancher’s cattle. The shooting put an end to the so-called Wedge pack, but it did little to quell the controversy over wolves in the state.

    The issue has been so explosive that state wildlife officials received death threats and the head of the Fish and Wildlife Commission warned the public at a recent hearing in Olympia on wolves that uniformed and undercover officers were in the room ready to act.

    “What are we going to do so we don’t have this again?” asked Steve Pozzanghera, a Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife regional director.

  137. avatar Salle says:

    Beluga whale ‘makes human-like sounds’
    Beluga whale Beluga whales are known as “canaries of the sea” because of their frequent, high-pitched calls

    Researchers in the US have been shocked to discover a beluga whale whose vocalisations were remarkably close to human speech.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      Salle, I am always shocked at how reluctant humans are to acknowledge intelligence, curiosity, the ability to communicate and express and feel emotions in the animal world. Anyone who has had a dog or studies other creatures knows that animals do all of the above. I think its a great human flaw that we ignore, belittle and abuse all other forms of life and do so under the veil of a superior intelligence.

  138. avatar CodyCoyote says:

    Wyoming’s wolf hunt is past the halfway point in confirmed kills. As of Monday afternoon Oct 22, 30 wolves had been checked in out of the statewide quota of 52. Two areas are now closed , having met quota. One is in the Jackson Hole area somewhere, the other is the area around Meeteetse . Each had a quota of 3. Seven wolves have been taken outside the trophy zone thus far.

    meanwhile, a Utah elk hunter was roughed and scruffed by a Grizzly on Pickett Creek above the Pitchfork Ranch west of Meeteetse. He wasn’t hurt badly , and the bear made it away unscathed, too ( or at least I’m told it did . Will monitor ).

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      I wonder if it was easier to kill wolves here because they were used to a human presence because of the park. I think its a terribly sad and awful situation.

  139. avatar Derek Farr says:

    These people are working everyday to steal our public lands.
    We cannot rest.

    • avatar Mark L says:

      –from the website–
      “I am a deconstructeur of modern environmentalism and its destructive regulatory aftermath. I am fully committed to popularizing the post-scarcity mindset and laying the ideological foundation for an abundance economy.” Oh, that explains it (rollseyes).

  140. avatar Salle says:

    Caught on camera: Game cam captures remarkable images of wildlife in Sapphire Mountains

    Cool photos.

  141. avatar Salle says:

    This sort of thing is becoming all too common in this particular location…

    Wolf killed on highway in Banff National Park

  142. avatar Salle says:

    Signs stolen at Lake Como; illegal dump discovered

    “It’s really frustrating that we will have to use taxpayer dollars to replace stolen signs and clean up someone’s garbage,” said Darby Recreation Manager Erica Strayer. “We have invested a lot of our time and resources into upgrading and maintaining sites around Lake Como for the public to enjoy. To see someone intentionally and repeatedly return to the area to steal signs or dump trash is disturbing.”

    I’m guessing there’s a public dump in the nearby towns so…

  143. avatar rork says:

    Michigan, Wolves:
    It is inevitable that we will designate wolves a game species. This group asks me to sign on to support wolf management, with really crappy arguments, but it means a wolf hunt. Wolf hunt also likely inevitable, but I still hope our biologists don’t cave to hunters wishes, but call it as they see it. Ranchers don’t own the politicians here, international bridge-owners do.

    Small aside, what do make of this little one:
    “The fact is that making the wolf a game animal allows them to be managed under the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, the most successful wildlife conservation model on the planet.”
    I’ve seen some game management, mostly deer family, boar, and chamois (gamsbock), in Germany, France, and Austria, and am very skeptical of that claim, since management here seems primitive by comparison. Is it an outdated view but no longer true, something convenient they just made up, or was and still is true to some degree.

    • avatar JB says:


      Personally, I don’t believe the current literature on the North American Model provides an accurate depiction. I have also consulted with colleagues from other countries that question the claim that the NAM is the ‘most successful conservation model on the planet’. The NAM has been very good at conserving habitat and reversing declining population trends of game species; it is less useful when it comes to the protection of non-game species and ecosystems.

      • avatar CodyCoyote says:

        I’ve stated here several times that the North American Model had one very narrow goal of restoring game populations to sufficiently high numbers to once again be sport hunted , but this time in a sustainable manner instead of the free-for-all of market hunts and wanton killing of the 1800’s. And that’s it. The North American Model was never broad enough to assure that management of those game populations would also include their complementary predators , and it certainly had little or nothing to say about non-game species and mesopredators, or management that arced across entire ecosystems and habitat zones. It was always about the hunting, not about the wildlife-at-large.

        By 1960 after fifty years of state authority over big game takes, the NAM had mostly achieved its goal in restoring Elk, Deer, even Moose in my part of the hunting world ( NW Wyoming ). Thankfully , we had wildlife ” in the Bank ” called Yellowstone to draw on. Many of today’s far flung elk herds in Wyoming were transplanted from GYE migratory elk.

        However, since the 1980’s , the North American Model has failed itself in NW Wyoming. The herds are now at highest numbers ever, but very VERY unbalanced due to incredibly flawed hunting pressure —and of course, the lack of apex predators and other essential components in the overall wildlife biological algorithms. The NAM also has no real mechanism to accomodate ecosystem-wide gross changes in real time . Read: massive wildfires and climate change affecting vegetation. And encroachment by humans and all they brought with them ( such as toxins like DDT, lead, etc) and fractured habitats.

        The North American Model is not gospel, and maybe even no longer valid. But try and stand up at your next RMEF or Safari Club species banquet and say that . You will be the recipient of flung food and vitriol…or heaved out the door by flannel shirts and mustaches.

        • avatar Louise Kane says:

          excellent summary Cody

          • avatar Salle says:


            Thanks, Cody Coyote, for eloquently articulating so much tacit and acquired knowledge. I learn a great deal from your comments whenever they are offered.

        • avatar JB says:

          “The North American Model is not gospel, and maybe even no longer valid. But try and stand up at your next RMEF or Safari Club species banquet and say that.”

          I said as much at the annual meeting of the Wildlife Society just 2 weeks ago, and was read the riot act by a few folks who disagree. Fortunately, a number of others quietly thanked me for saying what needed to be said.

        • avatar rork says:

          I hate notes that only say thankyou, but I’m leaving one anyway.
          I guess I can say something. I very much like the value placed on wilderness here, and I have used it plenty. Maybe it should go “used to be placed”. Anyway, my debt is great, and maybe American’s can take allot of credit there. My local hook-and-bullet organization’s stance on wilderness is to shrug, or think it would be nice if access were better. Making more is not even on their map.

  144. avatar Louise Kane says:

    Aves have you seen this?

    It came from WCCL post

    about time

    Halt of N.C. Spotlighting of Coyotes Sought After Endangered Red Wolf Killed
    Tuesday, October 23, 2012
    USFWS Asked How Many Wolves Shot Since Rule

    CHAPEL HILL, N.C.—Concerned groups asked a state court to stop spotlight hunting of coyotes at night in North Carolina—including the area inhabited by the world’s only wild population of about 100 red wolves—after one or more of the wolves was killed. The Southern Environmental Law Center filed the motion for preliminary injunction (read Memo in Support of Motion for Preliminary Injunction here) and a request for expedited hearing in Wake County Superior Court on behalf of the Animal Welfare Institute, Defenders of Wildlife, and the Red Wolf Coalition.

    The law center also today sent a notice letter to the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission that the commission is in violation of the federal Endangered Species Act by allowing spotlight hunting of coyotes and the groups will file a federal enforcement action unless steps are taken to protect the wolves.

    “We hope that the commission will take necessary measures to avoid killing of red wolves,” said Derb Carter, a senior attorney at the Southern Environmental Law Center who represents the groups. “The killing of an endangered red wolf just over a month since the commission allowed spotlight hunting of coyotes at night is a clear signal that the rule is a danger to wild red wolves. We’ve asked the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to confirm reports that additional wolves have been shot since the rule went into effect.”

    At least one of the few remaining wild red wolves (Canis rufus) has been killed since the rule went into effect. On September 4, a red wolf was found dead by gunshot within the eastern North Carolina area designated for red wolf recovery. Red wolves and coyotes are similar in size, coats, and coloring so red wolves are frequently mistaken for coyotes, even in daylight. Gunshot deaths are a significant threat to red wolf recovery and a leading cause of red wolf mortality.

    “With fewer than 100 red wolves in the wild, we cannot afford to lose a single one to accidental shooting,” said Jason Rylander, senior staff attorney at Defenders of Wildlife. “Spotlight hunting of coyotes is a new and unnecessary threat to the conservation of red wolves.”

    By allowing night hunting of coyotes, the commission is committing an unlawful take (i.e., harass, harm, hunt, or kill) of the red wolf. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service stated in its public comments that the Commission’s rule “amendments to allow night hunting have the potential to result in unauthorized take of red wolves.”

    “It is the Commission’s duty to follow the law and protect wildlife in the state. Daytime coyote hunting has, for years, hindered wolf recovery,” said AWI legal associate Tara Zuardo. “The addition of night hunting will result in more red wolf deaths and further damage the recovery effort.”

    North Carolina is home to the world’s only wild population of red wolves. Red wolves bred in captivity were reintroduced on a North Carolina peninsula within their native range in the late 1980’s after red wolves were declared extinct in the wild. Once common throughout the Southeast, intensive predator control programs and loss of habitat eliminated wild red wolf populations.


    Note to Editors

    A photographic comparison of a red wolf and coyote can be viewed at:
    Photographs of red wolves in North Carolina are available for use with appropriate photo credit from the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service at

    About the Animal Welfare Institute
    The Animal Welfare Institute ( is a non-profit charitable organization founded in 1951 and dedicated to reducing animal suffering caused by people. AWI engages policymakers, scientists, industry, and the public to achieve better treatment of animals everywhere—in the laboratory, on the farm, in commerce, at home, and in the wild.

    About Defenders of Wildlife
    Defenders of Wildlife is dedicated to the protection of all native animals and plants in their natural communities. With more than 1 million members and activists, Defenders of Wildlife is a leading advocate for innovative solutions to safeguard our wildlife heritage for generations to come. For more information, visit

    About the Red Wolf Coalition
    The Red Wolf Coalition ( advocates for the long-term survival of red wolf populations by teaching about the red wolf and by fostering public involvement in red wolf conservation.

    About Southern Environmental Law Center
    The Southern Environmental Law Center,, is a regional nonprofit using the power of the law to protect the health and environment of the Southeast (Virginia, Tennessee, North and South Carolina, Georgia, and Alabama). Founded in 1986, SELC’s team of more than 50 legal and policy experts represent more than 100 partner groups on issues of climate change and energy, air and water quality, forests, the coast and wetlands, transportation, and land use.

    SELC—Kathleen Sullivan, 919-967-1450,

    AWI—Tara Zuardo, 202-446-2148,
    Defenders of Wildlife—Jason Rylander, 202-682-9400
    Red Wolf Coalition, Inc.—Kim Wheeler, 252-796-5600,

    • avatar Mark L says:

      The only thing that suprises me about the whole situation is that it took a month for them to admit to shooting 1…and less that a week after opening the night hunt. I expect a thousand page document (with 800 pages redacted?) explaining the wisdom of NCWNR’s OK to shoot those wicked coyotes that threaten house cats.
      Did anybody really doubt that 1 (or more) would be shot by somebody….at night…in red wolf areas? If somebody was hunting pileated woodpeckers in the Singer Tract (look it up) a hundred years ago and happened to shoot an ivory-billed woodpecker would it suprise anyone? If you can hunt sandhill cranes and happen to get a whooping crane accidentally is it suprising?
      In the North Carolina accident, why is there no accounting of who actually proposed the legistation in the first place? This is where the problem started.

      • avatar aves says:

        It didn’t take a month. USFWS went public asking for tips on September 18, 2 weeks after the dead wolf was found.

    • avatar Ida Lupine says:

      Thank goodness something was done about that.

    • avatar aves says:

      Thanks for posting, Louise.

  145. avatar Louise Kane says:

    Pretty mind boggling that this particular hunting activity was allowed in a red wolf recovery area. Equally as mind boggling how terribly coyotes are treated everywhere. Its definitely time for a big change in wildlife management.

    • avatar RobertR says:


      The problem is that none of you have a wildlife management plan. It’s like a politician avoiding and redirecting the question asked, and I have asked it several times.

      • avatar Louise Kane says:

        actually I have outlined some ideas here in the past. A big first step is to redirect the way that we think about wild animals. Why should any animal be hunted year round without relief, coyotes especially. Why don’t we pass anti cruelty laws for wildlife? It is time for a change

        • avatar RobertR says:

          To me your way of thinking to protect animals, creates more problems.
          One, more animal vehicle collisions, two more government intervention to control problem animals and more shot on sight for ranchers.
          The caudle the animal management don’t work.
          Sports men and women brought the game back from near extinction, read the history.
          There are hundreds of animals hit by vehicles daily. So what is your plan. You cannot let wildlife manage it’s self in today’s society. Hunting ins the best tool for management, unless you want to create federal snipers.

          • avatar Ida Lupine says:

            It isn’t that kind of world anymore. Not only are there more and more automobiles, less and less animals, but habitat is fragmented and becoming less and less also. Hunters cannot bring back game from near extinction anymore. The wolverine is just the latest example of that. We have a blind spot, probably due to our own survival instincts, about our huge effect on the environment, and continue to blame other predators for wildlife decline.

            You can let wildlife managage itself in certain areas, even in today’s society (under the watchful eyes of biologists), and we should take more care in how we live with them, not just attribute automobile deaths as “just the way it is”.

          • avatar Mark L says:

            There are plenty of ways to mitigate vehicle/animal collisions, some more effective than others. Funnelling animals to certain wooded crossing areas, while cutting back brush from highways nearby is an example, over/underpasses is another.
            The argument you are making, that it’s better to make hunters pay to kill the same animals that ‘federal snipers’ would shoot has holes also. Shooting doesn’t modify an animal’s behavior, it ends it. If you ‘train’ animals…even wild ones…to respond to stimulae in a certain way, you get better results. Hell, even fireworks work better than guns, try it.
            The same has been mentioned on this website, with older adult cougars being more ‘desirable’ (to us) than younger ones. Coyotes are the same way…people too.

            • avatar RobertR says:

              Mark what is your plan to control urban ungulates and rodents like beaver and other nuisance animals. There are several cities that use bowhunters and some that use police to shoot deer. The meat goes to food banks.
              As for your fireworks it don’t work. The fish and game has use propane cannons and even electric fences. The problem with any of these is the animals get use to it and ignore them because it’s not a threat to them.
              The counties and state mow the road edges and cut willow patches but that does not eliminate collisions.

          • avatar Nancy says:

            “One, more animal vehicle collisions, two more government intervention to control problem animals and more shot on sight for ranchers”

            And hows that working so far RobertR?

            I’ve personally witnessed a pack of coyotes running a yearly moose calf (til Momma moose intervened) so my guess is if ranchers, hunters & trappers would just leave coyotes (not to mention wolves, bears & lions) the F**k alone, they might just stabilize and keep in check, prey animals (deer, elk and antelope) that some humans get so anxious about, especially here in the west, when it comes to the never ending “game” of filing claims for collisions & livestock losses 🙂

            • avatar RobertR says:

              Nancy there is one problem with your leave the predators alone theory.
              Eventually some of the ungulates will find sanctuary in an urban setting or someone’s back yard etc. where predators will and cannot hunt without getting into trouble.
              Just in the last three days in a ten mile stretch I have counted 22 deer have been hit and yet there is a very good population of coyotes and yes even a few coyotes have been hit.
              Nancy I have lived in the Big Hole, Wise River and guided in the West Pioneers and live on the Big Hole River.I have seen the rise and fall of fish and game populations through the years.

            • avatar Mark L says:

              I don’t think you can ever totally eliminate animal/vehicle collisions until you reroute either the animals or the vehicles. Over/underpasses require investment in infrastructure…sometimes it’s just wiser to have a raised highway in flood prone areas anyway (and sometimes it’s not). Raised highways do also discourage poaching though. The county’s and state’s plans sometimes actually encourage conflict with their obsession with well mowed grass (bring ungulates close to a road with an invasive grass that humans find ‘pretty’ and some ungulates eat).
              Beavers? Hey, I like beavers. Yes, some are a nuisance but sometimes they are showing us where water needs to be, not where we want it to be (heaven forbid we watch dumb animals for hints though).

          • avatar jon says:

            Why are you so worried about wildlife management when there are 7 billion people on the planet? Does wildlife really have to be killed in order to be “managed”? The answer is no.

      • avatar jon says:

        It’s not a management plan, it’s a killing plan Robertr.

        • avatar Robert R says:

          Jon it may be killing to you but you need to check out and see how much Hunters Helping The Hungry donates to food banks and families in need of help. If you have a management plan for habitat and wildlife, let’s hear it.

          Mark, high fences on interstate highways are being used but it impedes migration and promotes inbreeding and is far fetched on secondary two lane highways. For the mowed edges of highways it’s serves for high visibility to see game and to help with fire prevention.

          • avatar Nancy says:

            Robert R – perhaps it would help if speed limits were greatly reduced (and enforced) between the hours of dusk and dawn.

            Or how about a few big billboards, strategiclly placed, depicting wildlife/vehicle collisions along with stats – insurance claims, annual wildlife death totals, etc.

            • avatar Robert R says:

              Nancy, the insurance claims stats would be very interesting. I know in some places where game crosses the highway they have motion detectors that trigger flashing lights to warn motorist of game crossing.
              On my daily commute which is only twenty miles, for the first five miles if you drive over 40 mph you will hit a deer because of the deer density.
              They are now nick naming the road between Twin Bridges and Whitehall the Blood Road because of all the deer being hit. Thanks to big money people buying land and not allowing any type of hunting.

            • avatar Nancy says:

              “the insurance claims stats would be very interesting”

              So would out of pocket repairs Robert R since many (myself included) carry only liability on an older vehicle.

              Then you’ve got “deer alley” south of Dillon on I-15.

  146. avatar Salle says:

    It’s not just WS who fails to inform the public… redacting documents is just one of many tactics. Evidenced in the article below, it seems that NOAA (also responsible for species allegedly protected under the ESA) withheld this info until forced to release it by legal means:

    Released Docs Reveal Deadly Blow to Whales After BP Disaster
    Documents obtained by Greenpeace show officials controlling information about wildlife affected by the disaster

  147. avatar Derek Farr says:

    I am working on the front lines of the public lands battle as the campaign manager for an Idaho County Commissioner (Jim Rehder) who opposes public lands divestiture. Jim Chmelik, our incumbent opponent is running on a single issue: to privatize our public lands. Hear him speak here:–175514111.html
    Got to Rehder’s Facebook page here:
    Please “like” his page. We need to stir up support. We cherish our public lands, but people are working hard to sell those lands to the highest bidder.

  148. avatar Salle says:

    MT and ID tallies:

    Wolf hunt takes off – Biologists say 24 wolves killed since archery, rifle season—biologists-say-wolves-killed/article_278680e8-1e6e-11e2-a869-0019bb2963f4.html

  149. avatar CodyCoyote says:

    The Feds won the lawsuit filed against them by the widow of the elderly botanist killed by a researcher- drugged Grizzly Bear west of Cody last year.

    The government ” won” not on the merits of the case or not because they were not negligent, but because of the ‘olly olly oxen free’ clause of Tort Law that says you can’t really sue the government and expect to really win…

      • avatar SAP says:

        That area is Road-Hunter central. There’s a county road network to the north, then the Antelope Basin network itself, just off Raynolds’ Pass. Seems to attract a lot of sketchy characters. Antelope Basin also ties in with the Divide Road into Henry’s Lake basin, as well as the Red Rock Pass network.

        It would be pure conjecture for me to pretend to know what motivated this heinous crime, beyond a basic contempt for most life beyond their own slimy skin. But I wouldn’t be the least bit shocked to find it’s someone who is resentful about wolves.

        A lot of folks up this way rant about how the wolves have kilt all the moose. Let’s see how long they remember that three of them were gunned down by some criminals.

        I can hear it already, though: the moose wouldn’t have been so close to the road had the wolves not chased them there. Always always always a way to blame wolves and/or Obama.

        • avatar Salle says:


          Good points, and I would like to see just how long it takes for them forget about the poaching incident, not long I’m sure. Or the wave of a hand and the shake of a pointed finger claiming that that’s nothing compared to the damage wolves do.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      a terrible story Salle. Yet its one that raises a question in my mind. These are the comments:

      1) Hang them,ya know if you and your family is hungry,my opinion is shoot it whether you have a tag or not.I know its still illegal but people got too eat!!!Now furhter more,to the people that do shoot and let lay.To heck with ya!you are ruining it for everyone else!

      2) zubie41 – 20 hours ago
      first of all, there are many more gun owners than hunters. That being said, I along with the majority of gun owners and hunters, shake my head in disgust at this wasteful and sociopathic act.

      3) srvdmytym – October 26, 2012 8:20 am
      ……as a former instructor in Hunter Safety… thing i taught the pupils: “When the law is broken with a firearm….everyone that hunts is viewed in the same light”….the morons that shoot at traffic signs, the morons that kill game animals and walk away from them….it just gives the “anti-gun” crowd more power….the individual(s) that did this should be judged and sentenced to prison….

      The common objection is to the waste. What makes this act different than trophy hunting. while I don’t hunt, I can respect the idea of hunting for for food, if the kill is quick and using fair chase tactics. I don’t like it but I understand. I can never reconcile the waste of an animals life for trophy hunting, a wasteful, indecent, deceptively named… “sport”. When those of you that hunt read this story and the comments, maybe you’ll get a sense of why trophy hunting is so reviled and repulsive to so many of us who value wildlife.

      • avatar Salle says:


        I agree on many of your points and I read the comments that were on the page when I posted the link… there were only three then.

        I am acquainted with this game warden and for him to sound this pissed off is unusual and quite valid. There have been many complaints about a reduced population of moose in the general area, though I never have trouble finding one or more when I go looking for them even though I haven’t conducted a formal pop count.

        With this incident it’s obvious that the individual(s) who did this have some other mindset than “hunting” for whatever reasons that may validate “hunting”.

        Then, there were a couple other poaching of moose incidents in neighboring Wyoming, two other locations about the state, and it has occurred to me that it could, possibly, be the same individual(s) who did this in all cases of late. It only takes a few hours to get from each location to the next where the poaching took place. A serial poaching spree? Just a thought but not entirely impossible…

        Consequently, everyone with whom I have discussed this incident over the past two days were so pissed off that many of the comments were far more angry than anything you might see on the newspaper site, the more moderate of those comments were relative to maximum legal consequences – all at once not piecemeal. These comments came from all walks of life that exist around here. Should the perp(s) be caught, something similar to a lynch mob might be one of the issues they will be faced with. And I do hope they are caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and then some. This is an event of just killing to kill, something usually attributed to the four-legged predators among us by those who can’t accept that the four-legged predators will actually make good use of the meat for themselves and others.

        • avatar elk275 says:

          “I am acquainted with this game warden and for him to sound this pissed off is unusual and quite valid.”

          You got that right. Jim is the most mellow game warden, maybe to mellow. I can not see him pissed off.

          • avatar Savebears says:

            Jim is a great guy, to read he is pissed off, is really going a long ways! These criminals need to be found and prosecuted to the fullest extent the law allows, then throw in a couple of extras!

        • avatar SAP says:

          Serial poaching? Maybe. I just think it’s hunting season. Angry, anxious people out there, spending money they may not have to get out in the hills. Some of them are just jonesin’ to shoot something, and moose tend to be pretty easy targets.

          I am increasingly in favor of public corporal punishment of people like this.

          • avatar Salle says:

            It was just a thought that popped into my head… over the past week or so I’ve heard of three incidents now, all a couple days apart within the ecosystem, at least two were.

            I do agree that it could just be itchy trigger fingered dolts with a… problem. I would speculate that it could be out-of-towners but ya never know for sure until they’re caught.

  150. avatar Nancy says:

    “Eventually some of the ungulates will find sanctuary in an urban setting or someone’s back yard etc. where predators will and cannot hunt without getting into trouble”

    RobertR – are ungulates seeking sanctuary these days or does it have more to do with with development? What use to be vast areas of open fields are now filled with homes, watered and manicured lawns, shrubs, plants and trees.

  151. avatar Salle says:

    [Teton NP] Park closes area after 4 bears steal dead elk

  152. avatar CodyCoyote says:

    World’s rarest dog set to go extinct…only 75 Ethiopian Wolves left in the wild ; about 400 in captivity elsewhere.

    • avatar Louise Kane says:

      Ethiopia is the most populated landlocked country in the world as well as one of the oldest civilizations, so what do they have in common with the US, with us? Some of the most endangered species of wolves. One might have hoped we would have learned a lot more through the painstaking “progress” of becoming civilized. The near extinction and rapidly dwindling numbers of the ethiopian wolf, red wolf and mexican wolf, and countless other predators worldwide are proof that the length of civilization does not indicate any enlightened thinking about predators and especially wolves. Taking the female Mexican wolf mother out of the tiny population and from her pups, proves we certainly have not progressed morally, politically, or learned to respect basic science in our decision making process as “managers” for the other species we live with. It would be much more suitable to think of ourselves as caretakers instead of managers. I think until we have a shift in our collective thinking, then we will continue to be faced with mass extinctions.

  153. avatar jon says:,105968.0.html

    This is a very troubling poll. What does it say about the hunting community when you have some hunters supporting poaching?


September 2012


‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."

~ Edward Abbey