It is time for a new “wildlife news” thread.

Please put  your news, links and comments below in comments.  Here is the link to the thread being retired (May 18, 2013).

Beaver pond in the high water of June. SE Idaho. Beaver remake creeks, streams, springs, even seeps. They usually greatly increase the diversity of wildlife in an area with their ponds. It is surprisingly hard to get Fish and Game departments to take them seriously, have a rational trapping season and to keep people from just killing them. Copyright Ralph Maughan. June 2013

Beaver pond in the high water of June. SE Idaho. Beaver remake creeks, streams, springs, even seeps. They usually greatly increase the diversity of wildlife in an area with their ponds. It is surprisingly hard to get Fish and Game departments to take them seriously, have a rational trapping season and to keep people from just killing them. Copyright Ralph Maughan. June 2013

About The Author

Ralph Maughan

Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University with specialties in natural resource politics, public opinion, interest groups, political parties, voting and elections. Aside from academic publications, he is author or co-author of three hiking/backpacking guides, and he is past President of the Western Watersheds Project and the creator of The Wildlife News.

643 Responses to Do you have some interesting wildlife news? June 5, 2013 edition

  1. Ralph Maughan says:

    OK folks. Here is the new post for interesting wildlife news

  2. JEFF E says:

    a non-native introduced species.
    where is the outrage

  3. Robert R says:

    This says what I have been saying for a long time but being I don’t have a biology degree or a phd and my opinion means nothing to some.

    • Immer Treue says:


      This appears to be a follow-up to your original THREAD in the MAY 18 DYHAIWLN.

      Robert R says:
      June 5, 2013 at 5:21 am
      Someone has an ax to grind.

      “Someone has an ax to grind

      Explain, please.


    • Leslie says:

      Robert: This was the 3 year field study done in my valley. Robert you are oversimplifying by stating you’ve been saying this for years.

      There were many many factors that aren’t even mentioned in this simple newspaper article. For instance this herd is calving only every other year on average as compared to every year in the front country herd. This biological strategy is because of poor nutrition due to early and shortened green-up during lactation.

      In addition, Middleton found that these elk were spending much more time eating than the front country herd, yet no more time being vigilant. His study notes that the migratory herd encounter wolves approx. every 9 days and that it isn’t till 1 kilometer distance that wolves changes elk behavior.

      I listened to his dissertation which noted that the key factor here is autumn body fat, not predation risk to this herd.

      I watched Middleton think about all the many complicated factors and try to piece that puzzle together. I suggest you read his entire study for a look at all the factors considered here.

      One interesting anecdote is that my 90 year old neighbor who grew up in the valley told me that there was no migratory herd here until the 50’s or 60’s when they changed their migratory patterns. I’d like to see some historical notes on that.

      • Robert R says:

        Leslie I don’t think so. All ungulates have been using private land for years and wildlife services cannot manage what cannot be hunted and the SSS also applies here on private land. Also the increased elk population also factors into private land with fact that most private landowners do not tolerate predators. The increased elk numbers are only where elk are protected by private landowners and there are very few bears and or wolves and lions.

        • Leslie says:

          Robert, your link and my comment applies to the Sunlight herd study, not private lands. Middleton only studied two herds–one migratory and one not. The non-migratory also has wolf packs there though the bear pressure wouldn’t have been as great.

          One of the recommendations of the Nelson wolf study was to manage elk hunts on private lands as a way of decreasing wolf-cattle conflicts. Elk on private lands increases wolf-livestock encounters. I suggest you read her study that has some excellent research and recommendations.

          • Robert R says:

            Lessie I was not referring to just Middleton but to whole political argument about elk increasing/decreasing debate and predation on elk. And yes it does apply to private lands.
            It’s not from Middleton but is the same article.

            The opposite seemed to be true in the Cody region. Resident elk from the same herd as the migratory elk found areas with irrigated fields to eat, few predators and more limited hunting on private land, McWhirter said.

            • Leslie says:

              “The increased elk numbers are only where elk are protected by private landowners and there are very few bears and or wolves and lions.”

              Do you have any data to support that statement?

  4. Lyn McCormick says:

    The National Academy of Science just published the results of its two year study of BLM’s Wild Horse & Burro Program

    • rork says:

      Time for scientists to show they’ve got some backbone, and at least start their spiel by flatly stating that eradication is what they would recommend. It was legislators who in 1971 insanely and without any regard for truth declared these pests “an integral part of the natural system of the public lands”, not biologists.

      • Ida Lupine says:

        But people want them. It will never fly.

        • Ida Lupine says:

          Scientists do not make policy. As we are seeing with wolves, they advise on the best course of action for the people. Here, whether or not wild horses are indigenous or not, people want them in the landscape as part of our Western heritage, wild and free. If humans did abandon them into the landscape, something more humane and thoughtful needs to be done to manage them, other than just killing them to get rid of them.

          This report shows that they are not as damaging to the lanscape as was thought, the current method of dealing with them is counterproductive and short-sighted, and recommends much more humane method of managing population than rounding them up with helicopters till their legs break or running them to death. What could be wrong with that?

          • Theo says:

            Clearly other people also want cows and sheep “in the landscape”, so I don’t think that is a good argument.

            • Ida Lupine says:

              And most likely the cows and sheep are here to stay also. I can’t say that I mind. It’s part of our Western heritage also. But I think there has to be a little working together. There are ways of making things work.

            • Lyn McCormick says:

              The forage allocation is so stacked in favor of LS, 80% is what I’ve heard. The other issue, and I’ve witnessed this because I am surrounded by a million acres of PL which is heavily grazed, is that the grass never gets to go to seed. The cows came on a month ago and the sheep were on before that.

          • Lyn McCormick says:


      • Lyn McCormick says:

        What is “the truth” you are referring to ?

        • rork says:

          That they are as integral to the natural system in North America as Zebra Mussels are to Lake Superior.

          • Theo says:


          • Lyn McCormick says:

            Hey, Thanks for prompting me to read up on zebra mussels. So sorry to waste your time and mine. I’d love to debate further but I’ve got the full NAS WH&B report to read, chase range cows of my riverbottom grass pastures with my horse, bottle feed a bum calf, and plant willows along the riverbank. Have a good day.

        • WM says:

          Lyn McCormick,

          Now I think I understand why you were so dismissive of rork’s comment. It appears someone with your same name is pushing for the WHB horse roundups to stop with a national petition.

          I don’t know what your solution for the problem is – actually I don’t think you or supporters of the WHB Act have one. You horse folks statutorily created the problem and there is no way out. One hundred thousand dollars a day to run this joke of a program.

          I was just at the BLM wild horse adoption facility outside Burns, OR, two weeks ago. They take horses off Steen’s Mountain. These are the so-called Kiger Plateau mustangs. Beautiful horses, if the truth be known, but they are multiplying faster than they can be disposed. And, I do appreciate the iconic place the horse holds in the settlement of the American West , though it seems the memory is a romantic dream which some want to carry forward regardless of the cost and impacts).

          They had an inventory at the adoption facility, of something like 700 horses, mostly yearling colts and mares about ready to foal. They were stacked in holding pens, with no shade, not a blade of grass in sight, piped in water, and even a bunch of colts standing on a pile of horse manure 10 feet high and the width of a football field in the middle of one big corral.

          So, for all this, there is a staff of about a half dozen or more on-site federal employees, nearly a $1 million in equipment and assets: horse trailers, trucks, backhoes, tractors, hay barns, and a maze of makeshift corrals with expensive 8 ft high modular tube fence panels mounted on heavy steel I beam posts sunk in concrete cassions (that must have cost a fortune to build in itself). They are caring for these horses temporarily while they try to adopt them off. They have an out of date, incomplete and confusing adoption website, and a staff with an attitude, that won’t answer questions from the public. They have an on-line adoption auction website that looks like it was put together by an eighth grader.

          I expect the federal payroll for this small facility (remember there are lots more throughout the West in the states with the big wild horse/burro populations) is something like $.6M a year. I can’t imagine the fuel costs to round up and truck these horses from Steens Mountain to Burns, about a 200 mile round trip, so the operating budget for hay, vets, meds and hoof trimming has got to be astromical even for this little population.

          Don’t get me wrong. I like horses, and many of these were some good looking ponies. But this WHB statute putting stewardship with the federal government and specifically the BLM is a huge money waster. No National Academy of Science 18 month study that focuses on birth control is going to fix the problem in a cost-effective manner. What an incredible waste of time and taxpayer money for what are no better hooved locust than sheep or cattle, AND for which there is little to no commercial market, or way to knock down their numbers in a politically correct way. Idiots at the gate once again with Congress passing a law it didn’t understand for its implications, and forty years of incompetent federal stewardship by the BLM. There is a colorable argument this law should be repealed, and states should have a shot at taking over management (and maybe get rid of the Kleppe v. NM Supreme Court decision in the process, because the federal government has demonstrated it does a piss poor job as a steward of the public trust in managing what little wildlife has been handed over to it by Congress).

          • Lyn McCormick says:

            Hi WM, let me qualify myself a bit further. I am a rancher / conservationist. I’ve run buffalo on private dryland pasture and I lease out irrigated pasture to my neighbor who runs over 350 cow-calf pairs And, I still use horses to work livestock, three of the 9 ranch horses are mustangs and all are working ranch horses. Yes, I am partial to horses. My overriding concern is what is happening to the Sage Steppe and the Public range. I am surrounded by a million acres of it and it is heavily grazed by both sheep and cattle, and in some areas year round. It looks like the middle east and the watersheds look even worse. Yes, I jumped on the wild horse bandwagon mostly because I am tired of them being the scapegoats for everything that is wrong with the range. The way I see it, the wild horses are the canaries of what is wrong with the system. How can BLM repeatedly exclude livestock grazing from its Environmental Assessments ? The forage allocation in most of the HMA’s is waaaay skewed in favor of LS. Further, the numbers game is easy. The GAO calculates the cost of public lands LS grazing at over $ 120 million (I believe that is just the loss the public has to bear in lease fees because of the below market rate of the AUM’s) The total bill including collateral costs of conservation and wildlife services etc, etc., is in excess of $500 million – compared to what ? $120 million on the wild horses, and over half of that is the cost of off-the-range management. If we’re talking cost effective, there would be alot more forage for everybody if they only grazed from mid-June until August or September and fed hay in the feedlot until the grass went to seed. I watched the sheep come through here in April, just when the grass was getting started – it looked like a locust plague had gone through afterwards. I’ll bet if the grazing fees were at private market rates it would be cheaper to raise enough hay to feed into June. I said earlier that I ran 40 head of buffalo in eastern Colorado on dry land grass. I fed into June and the last three years, due to drought, started feeding again in August. Now, I have 500 acres of irrigated river bottom pasture that I am recovering from years of neglect and overgrazing by former tenants. So far this season we’ve managed to keep the range cows off, using horses, but it is a daily job – the cows are very breachy and the fences are old. However, I have such wonderful rancher neighbors and we work together so this fall when the cows come home they’ll get some good native grass pasture before they hit the hay fields. Here is a link to an article by Andrew Cohen of The Atlantic Monthly re: The NAS report. And, thanks for responding to my comment. LM

    • Ida Lupine says:

      I don’t know how you can have any kind of wildlife management with these kinds of ‘wild cards’ running around unencumbered. This attitude is not conducive to healthy populations of wildlife, and needs to be taken into consideration when devising any plans.

      Now you’ve got legitimate hunting and these people, when before you only had this kind of mentality. Delisting never should have been rushed through (the only way it could get through), and never would have if we had experienced leadership. The stuff Louise posted also was just apalling.

  5. Alex Thal says:

    Dr. Ralph Maughan stated, “There are scores of scientific studies about the reintroduced wolves: their behavior, effects, prospects, etc.” I am interested in the scores of scientific studies Dr. Maughan refers to in his article, “Western wolf issue is mostly not really about wolves”.

    I tried contacting him. Can you help me Regarding the studies he refers to?

    Thank you,


    Alex Thal

    • Ralph Maughan says:

      Alex Thai-

      A good way to find scientific articles on wolves is to begin with some important paper on wolves. It will have a substantial bibliography of others. Go from there.

      Another method is Google Scholar. I took me about 1 minute to find 50 or more articles there. Each has a brief description. The search terms were “wolf OR wolves AND rockies OR Yellowstone OR Idaho OR Montana OR Wyoming”

    • Ralph Maughan says:

      In fact my thesis is hardly original — that the big conflict over wolves isn’t really about wolves, although I came to it on my own after watching and participating for 16-17 or years. My quick little web search found this article.

      It was written in 1995 by Matthew A. Wilson. Here is the abstract.

      In spring 1995, wolves were returned to the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem for the first time in five decades. Despite this being hailed as a success, public opposition to the wolf remains intense in many rural communities surrounding the reintroduction site. This study shows that social controversy remains because it is much more than a debate about wolves; it is a conflict between the advocates of two social movements—environmentalism and wise use—struggling to impose their own preferences for land use in the American West. Wolves are merely symbols delineating the battle lines of a much larger conflict. Three underlying social issues drive the debate: (1) differential access to social power, (2) conflicting ideas about private property, and (3) divergent beliefs about nature. Recognizing these deeper levels of social conflict is important, because it is from here that future land use controversies are likely to emerge. By identifying and describing the symbolic nature of the wolf reintroduction conflict, this article addresses a major policy issue dividing the environmental movement from the wise use movement and reveals long‐standing social issues that recently have erupted into the foreground of policy discourse over the future of federal land management in the American West.

    • WM says:

      Alex Thal,

      In addition to what Ralph suggests, let me offer the official US Fish & Wildlife Western gray wolf recovery website. Here you will find all the state plans, annual reports, draft and final federal regulations. Within those documents are citations to enough studies to keep you busy reading for the next 10 years. Just look at the bibliographies in those documents.

      And, depending on how far back and how detailed you want to get there are books/texts/publication compilations by Dr. David Mech, one of the foremost wolf scientists in the world and who is involved in the NRM wolf recovery, which you can buy second hand on vendors like for pretty cheap.

      And, here is a good article. Look for the authors noted in this piece:

      B vonHoldt, D Stahler, J Pollinger, D Smith, E Bangs, et al. (2010) A novel assessment of population structure and gene flow in gray wolf populations of the Northern Rocky Mountains of the United States. Mol Ecol 19, 4412-4427. And a link to the text:

      The papers cited in the bibliography are enogh to keep you busy for a year or two.

  6. CodyCoyote says:

    A photo gallery going viral today at all the Lee Newspapers around Yellowstone. Photographer Max Waugh captured a sequence of a mother Red Fox fighting off a Badger at the mouth of her den of kits. A poignant reminder of the nature of carnivores.

  7. CodyCoyote says:

    Ralph- your commentary under the excellent photo of the beaver pond riparian area at the top of this section reminded me again of the dynamic of Beavers.

    I personally believe that the extirpative trapping of the Beaver from the Rocky Mountains ( and elsewhere) beginning in the early 1800’s during the fur trade and continuing to this day for other dubious reasons has been grossly understated as an ecological game changer. Beavers are the ditch riders of Mother Nature’s domain where they live, and their work is necessary in addition to being rewarding to us humans who see no conflict in having them. It is a shame that land managers, conservation services, and the agencies have not reformed their thinking on the huge positive value of beaver hydrology. Now that climate change is taking hold , the importance of having a robust beaver population and distribution cannot be understated. We need to start restoring beavers, at least in non-conflict areas ( which of course depends on your notion of ” those damn beavers are [ fill in the blank ] ” , usually uttered by the lips immediately under a Stetson hat brim ).

    But here is an interesting fact about Beavers. When a pair mate, they will have 4-6 kits. When the time comes as the kids grow up , the parent beavers will selectively kill all but one male and one female from their litter, and drive them off to find a new territory of their own. It’s their way of dispersing, increasing habitat and domain , and assuring good genetic viability. But it’s a little draconian to us primates.

    It’s also why you cannot transplant more than a mated pair of beaver anywhere, much as you’d like to have several colonies of beavers out there. I know of a couple instances where conservation-minded ranchers actually tried to restore beavers to their stream in the Cody area here, and they plunked down as many as six animals at once in the same stream basin. They immediately eliminated themselves by infighting. For not understanding beaver behavior, they overdid it and underachieved their goal of rebuilding riparian areas overgrazed by cattle in critical winter range for wildlife.

    We definitely need to restore beavers to the American West in the face of climate change and two centuries of land abuse by livestock and development. There must have been several hundred thousand beavers in the Rockies Pre-Columbus. I’m guessing the number today is a very tiny fraction of the natural carrying capacity of the suitable streams.

    But we have to do the reintroduction right, by understanding beavers. And with the beaver’s consent.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      Good post.

    • SAP says:

      CodyCoyote – do you have a citation for the killing-of-offspring part?

      I can imagine that they might kill offspring in very marginal habitat, but it’s not mentioned in Walker’s Mammals of the World (6th edition, 1999) or other sources. Most sources state that a colony may consist of the monogamous breeding pair and offspring up to age 2 (similar to wolf packs?).

    • where on EARTH did you read that ‘fact’ about parents killing off spring? We have plenty of telemetry studies and observations that easily disprove that statement.

    • ma'iingan says:

      “When the time comes as the kids grow up , the parent beavers will selectively kill all but one male and one female from their litter, and drive them off to find a new territory of their own.”

      Hmmm. I’d like to know where you dug up this “fact”. I spent the first part of my career as a beaver control specialist, and it sure would’ve been easier if beaver behaved the way you claim they do. Actually, they’re among the most nurturing of our N.A. mammals, similar to wolves in some respects.

      The instances where we attempted colony relocation actually worked pretty well, as long as we could find unoccupied habitat.

    • Ralph Maughan says:


      This is good evidence of my argument that anti-wolf sentiment is really generated by the tea party people. It is personal and unrelated to wolves except indirectly.

  8. Beaver challenges can be successfully and inexpensively controlled with flow devices. I should know, my own low-lying city installed one 6 years ago to control flooding from a beaver dam. Now because of our beaver-created wetlands we regularly see otter, heron, steelhead, woodduck and even mink in our tiny urban stream. With the number of states that will face drought years again it’s a national failure that we don’t recognize the inherent value of these ‘water-savers’.

    Heidi Perryman, Ph.D.
    President & Founder
    Worth A Dam

    • Ralph Maughan says:

      Thanks Heidi,

      Road crews, farmers and many others need to know of these “beaver deceiveers.”

      Efforts to restore them in the mountains near Pocatello, Idaho stalled when county road crews started trapping and shooting the beaver when any dam showed up that might conceivably flood the road. The problem was solved when they learned of the flow device and how to install it.

      Unfortunately, the restoration has continued to stall due to vandals shooting the beaver and perhaps the unmonitored trapping. I don’t think beaver restoration can work along any heavily traveled paved or gravel road where ponds are easy to access.

      • Mike Settell says:

        Good point in both cases, Ralph. We’d like to get volunteers to monitor roads where 0.22 caliber vandals have opportunity to kill beaver. It is an unfortunate coincidence that 99% of all roads, surfaced or unsurfaced, in Idaho are also in prime beaver habitat. By excluding roads as re-location sites, we just elminated many potential habitat sites. USFS West Side Ranger District recognizes this and has been moving structures out of the floodplain. I am currently working with county road crews to install some FCD (flow control devices) where beaver are flooding roads. I expect these to be completed this summer. Meanwhile, we’d REALLY like Idaho Fish and Game to improve the recording of depredation permits: The most significant beaver population “Black Hole”.

        • zach says:

          Mike, my partner and I would be interested in volunteering around the SE Idaho area. Anywhere around Pocatello and the surrounding area would be great.

        • zach says:

          Send me an e-mail if you’d like help.

      • zach says:


        I just counted 3 or so beaver dams up around Mink Creek rec. area on the main dirt road, any idea if those dams are inhabited or not?

        • Ralph Maughan says:


          I have been driving the area too. I think they are inhabited. I also saw two seemingly active ponds up the South Fork of Mink Creek.

          • topher says:

            I know of at least one active beaver up south fork. Just after the road crosses the creek for the second time down on the left side of the road before the cliffs.

            • topher says:

              While this beaver is close to the road he isn’t really visible unless you leave your car, there have been beaver here for the last several years if I remember correctly

  9. JBurnham says:

    Missoula Independent feature on grizzlies vs. the sheep research station in the Centennials.

  10. Just based on geography and beaver wisdom, I’m thinking you know Settell?

  11. alf says:

    The feature article in this week’s Missoula Independent ( is titled “The mysterious disappearance of Grizzly 726”

    That’s the bear that was killed in the Centennial Mountains in SW Montana last summer, apparently by a mutton conductor working for the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s nefarious and notorious sheep “experiment” station.

  12. Louise Kane says:

    I have a good friend who is a consultant on oil spill prevention and response strategies. She and I did a kayak trip around the Gulf Islands some years ago after a conference I attended and presented at in Victoria. She just sent me this link from one of her clients who did a kayak trip for oil spill response assessment purposes. Its a beautiful little video and toward the end there is some footage of coastal wolves and their pups. What a spectacular place!

    • WM says:


      Very nice trip. Makes me wish I still had my expedition kayak, now that I have time to use it.

      • Louise Kane says:

        WM it looked like a killer trip. I’m hoping I can get back to BC with her and take advantage of her client’s expertise there. The kayak trip I took was one of those trips of a lifetime But I did not see wolves! That would be a dream. sounds like you need to get another kayak! there is nothing quite like kayaking around the gulf islands.

    • jon says:

      There will be lawsuits though, so that’s a good thing. I want wolves in Colorado and Utah. You can bet your bottom dollar these states especially Utah will try to keep wolves out of their states. This is why wolves in places like Colorado and Utah need to be federally protected, so if wolves happen to find their way into CO and UT, they will be federally protected. Scientists sent letters to the Obama administration and to the DOI urging them to not delist wolves all across the US. Looks like the Obama administration has ignored scientists. Thank god there will be lawsuits.

      • Ida Lupine says:

        I want them in Massachusetts, Maine, NH and VT!

        • jon says:

          I want a couple hundred if not thousands in my state of Maine.

          • Ida Lupine says:

            Maine is perfect – I think VT is one of our least populated states also, so it would be ideal as well.

            I understand that black bears and bobcats have returned to Mass – so why not wolves.

            • Ida Lupine says:

              I hope VT stays that way. Keep the riff-raff out and natutre will thrive. I don’t know what the Obama administration has against wolves and the environment.

  13. Rita k Sharpe says:

    Rather interesting what Dr. David Mech said.

    • Mark L says:

      All that wisdom behind David Mech’s name and he only has a comment about wolves scaring kids at bus stops? Really?

      • jon says:

        Human tolerance is no reason not to protect wolves. If those people are scared of wolves or wildlife, that’s too bad. They need to get over their own unfounded fears of wildlife.

      • jon says:

        If wolves are delisted all across the US, that does mean anyone can shoot wolves on sight if wolves are in their state or do states still protect wolves as an endangered species even though if wolves aren’t “officially” in their state? I also am worried about hunters getting away with killing wolves by claiming they thought they were coyotes. Any hunter that kills a wolf needs to be prosecuted, fined big time, and jailed. This I thought it was a coyote excuse is not good enough. Hunters know the difference between a wolf and coyote.

        • Mark L says:

          I can imagine someone shooting a red wolf in North Carolina now: “I thought it was a gray wolf, honestly.”

          • jon says:

            Mark, there have been numerous red wolves shot in NC by hunters who either knew they were red wolves or thought they were coyotes. The only way to protect red wolves in NC is to completely ban coyote hunting.

        • Ida Lupine says:

          They do it in New England – when le loup steps one paw over from Quebec to VT, they’re shot with the coyote excuse. There’s lots of prime habitat for wolves where they haven’t been brought back yet.

        • Louise Kane says:

          If wolves are delisted the the states get to set their management objectives without hinderance of the ESA protections. And you have seen what the states do with special interests pumping money and lies to the legislators. Even in MI where a citizen’s initiative probably would have protected wolves, Casperson and his cronies pulled a super sleazy move and passed SB288 against the enormous accomplishment and plainly spoken will of the people vote on the issue. Delisting wolves is a national tragedy and is a shameful period in America’s history. Contrary to the BS about recovery being a huge success, delisting wolves pulled the scab off a huge western wound that never really healed and now that its opened again, that wound keeps festering and spreading its poison. There is no success here, just a return to hate, and sick policies that unduly persecute a wild animal. heartbreaking

  14. Ida Lupine says:

    U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director Dan Ashe says ending federal protections would let the agency concentrate on restoring Mexican wolves in the Southwest.

    I shudder to think what this actually means.

  15. Ida Lupine says:

    Dr. Mech also said this:

    Even without federal protection, wolves are likely to migrate into several Western states, Mech said.

    Sections of Colorado, Utah, Nevada and Northern California might have enough habitat, prey and isolation from humans for wolves to thrive, he said. But he added that might not happen if hunters kill so many Northern Rockies wolves that it reduces the number that would disperse from packs and seek new turf.

    While management may be necessary, there should be restrictions on the amount taken and how they are taken. Hounding and poisoning shouldn’t even be on the table. Population management shouldn’t include unnecessary violence and cruelty.

    I would add that today’s kids at bus stops are sometimes more frightening than any predator.

    • Rita k Sharpe says:

      Thank you, Ida, for posting it for me, for my typing is not great.

    • Ralph Maughan says:

      Whenever someone talks about children being threatened or eaten by wild animals at bus stops, you can write them off as any kind of objective spokesperson because this just hasn’t happened despite years of predictions that it will. They always say “bus stops.”

      You can tell that they are just mumbling a cliche because a person who truly worried about such things would vary the claim. For example, “children riding their bikes,” people with a slow gait being taken by wolves, bears, or whatever, “babies will be snatched from their buggies.” Farmers will be jumped as they drive their tractors.

      “Children at bus stops” is just thoughtless repetition no matter who says it.

      • Ida Lupine says:

        I think it’s because it does, or at least used to, get a visceral reaction from people because noone wants to see an innocent child hurt. They need a new script as you say.

  16. CodyCoyote says:

    Delisting the Grey Wolf everywhere in the Lower 48 based on a partial success in the Northern Rockies is political, not biological, and it goes against both the letter and spirit of the Endangered Species Act. It emanates from the west end of an east bound Bull. QED.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      And the fact that it is happening under a democratic watch is the worst.

      • Be carefull Ida, Obama is listening to everything you say. You might be placed on a no-fly list, or a hit list depending on which day of the week it is.

        • Ida Lupine says:

          I hope they wouldn’t waste their time on me. 🙂

          • I understand that Obama picks out people to kill with hellfire missiles from drones every Wednesday evening. If you see a drone flying over your house on Thursday, you will know you are on the hit list.
            He enjoys killing. Don’t look for him to show any mercy for wolves.

  17. Ida Lupine says:

    The northeastern United States provides suitable wolf habitat with over 26 million acres of northern forest from Adirondack State Park in Upstate New York through the North Woods of Maine. In fact, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service’s 1992 Eastern Timberwolf Recovery Plan identified Adirondack State Park and 2 areas of New England as possible recovery areas for this subspecies. Despite the availability of habitat and prey, natural recolonization is unlikely due to many landscape barriers, including the St. Lawrence Seaway and extensive urban areas.

  18. Immer Treue says:

    Looks like complete handoff is coming.

    • WM says:

      Recall that PEER filed a suit over what it says is political deal-making with the states and FWS, as a precursor to and basis for this proposed rule. They had a bunch of closed door meetings.

      No doubt the states -those that have wolves and those likely to get them- have given FWS an earful, and likely their respective Congressional delegations as well. I have to wonder if Rep. DeFazio of OR will get a raft of shit if he opposes this, while his Oregon state Governor and its Wildlife Agency say, we want to manage wolves on our own. It’s a pretty blue state, so this likely will play well in Salem (the state capitol), and maybe in Eugene/Springfield and Corvallis, the population seat of DeFazio’s Congressional district. Query whether DeFazio has interests for wolves outside OR- and if so, will he be willing to go against folks at home so UT or CO gets wolves. Same argument goes for CO’s Senator Mark Udall, as CO’s wildlife agency want the decision local, as well. I also don’t think the Great Lakes states with wolves are going to tell those without them the feds need to keep them listed.

      There are some interesting dynamics at play here, and then the PEER law suit, which sort of pits federal (and state) employees against the Administration, Congressinal types who want wolves delisted and the states. I am not a big fan of PEER for its political meddling, and maybe even its legal intervention. There is a perceived conflict of interest there.

  19. Ida Lupine says:

    Comedy Central – I especially love the responses from WY and UT:

  20. Louise Kane says:

    My surfer friends have new company
    The great whites are migrating back into Cape Cod waters
    Its pretty spectacular to see the images of these sharks when they are just off the coast. This is the newest sighting
    a 13′ female. Pretty awesome.

    • Mark L says:

      Not hitting Horseneck beach until mid July. Hopefully they’ll get their fill of chum and move on before then.

      • Louise Kane says:

        They seem to stay off the coast all summer and into fall. I don’t mind them here at all, I think its quite wonderful. I don’t throw toys out for my dog anymore at least off the ocean side but they come for a reason. The seals are everywhere and the sharks are here to prey on the seals. I like to think of them out there doing their job and being a real and valuable presence. The images of them in the shallow waters are just awesome…They are so huge.

  21. Louise Kane says:

    not an about wolves post and rare for me but I went to a
    a dinner and presentation tonight by the author of Four Fish. I would highly recommend this book, despite some of the reservations I have about claims related to the ability to harvest fish sustainably. Some intriguing thoughts about fisheries and the way Americans have been duped into selling their most nutritionally and economically valuable seafood products in exchange for non native or farmed fish like Tilapia, shrimp and salmon that are having devastating ecological impacts and provide less nutritive benefits.

  22. Louise Kane says:

    for anyone following the discussion about the great whites
    this is a link to an aerial of Monomoy Island off Chatham Cape Cod. The great whites are often see off this area and also around the outer barrier beach called North and South Beach as well as the coastal Atlantic side of the Cape. In recent years thousands of grey seals have come into the waters and the sharks are following them. Its a pretty spectacular area. Monomoy is also a refuge for piping plovers and other wildlife. It can be pretty treacherous in a boat in foul weather as there is shoaling and strong currents.

  23. Ida Lupine says:

    Here’s a site about our NY wolves also. I’d love to see them in their formers range upstate NY, VT, NH, MA and ME and Canada.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      Thank God.

      Louise, I enjoyed your posts last night which reminded me of the beauty of our own backyard. I have no need to ever set foot in the vile West and their ruined National Parks ever again. They hate their ‘romantic dream’ of the West so much, they want to turn it into another generic mess like so much of this country.

      Adirondack National Park has a ‘buffer zone’ around it. It would be nice if we had our own wolves. I’ll spend my money to improve my own back yard.

      • SaveBears says:

        Ruined National Parks and Vile West? Ida you are getting extreme again!

        • Ida Lupine says:

          Not your problem, SB.

          • SaveBears says:

            Boy, are we being snitty this morning?

            • Ida Lupine says:

              We are. 🙂 I shouldn’t be, I apologize. It isn’t your fault. Our idiots in leadership are the problem. I think I’ve screeched about them enough for one day. Ha!

      • WM says:

        ++Adirondack National Park has a ‘buffer zone’ around it. It would be nice if we had our own wolves.++

        They will never get wolves, Ida. Two reasons. Adirondack is a NY state park, which contains private land, AND, importantly, the park configuration with the lakes, roads, communities that rely on tourism, year round/summber cabins with residents that have their cute little lap dogs, don’t want wolves. Ever hear that story before? The park is about 6.1M acres, which makes it larger than Yellowstone NP plus Yosemite combined. The economic group that represents park businesses, I am told has gone on record as saying they don’t want them. And, if they show up there will likely be some 3S.

        Second, the state of NY wildlife agency doesn’t want them. Here is the official statement:

        ++New York State’s Department of Environmental Conservation has a long and proud history of restoring ….It is not clear that a wolf population could survive in New York given the abundance of highways and our large human population. Nor is it clear that having wolves in the woods of northern New York would be compatible with the interests of residents or the farmers that live on the periphery of that region. For these reasons, DEC does not believe that wolf restoration warrants serious consideration at this time. ++

        Now if numbnutz Senator Schumer and other NY Congressional types push a wolf agenda on the rest of the US in light of the FWS proposal, with its own state saying this, there will be some push back.

        • Ida Lupine says:

          Well, Algonquin does have them.

          • WM says:


            Algonquin is a Canadian Provincial Park in Central Ontario. There are about 7,000 wolves, mostly in the north – of course Ontario in the north is a big place and not many folks outside Ottawa, and not a alot of cows/sheep or humans with cute lap dog pets. Hunting and trapping, by the way, is allowed in parts of the Park (but not for wolves, though the park master plan refers to them as a “scavenger, which is a clue o what some Canadian bureaucrats think about wolves).

        • Ida Lupine says:

          We are a hotbed of Lyme disease here due to our overpopulation of deer. Coyotes have filled the niche once held by wolves and need to be kept in check as well. So it’s a win/win. Not only do we have prime habitat, we have prey. We have messed things up good and proper without them.

          • Ralph Maughan says:

            Ida Lupine,

            Lyme disease is a terrible problem, and I am glad it is rare in Idaho. Our ticks are nasty too, but they are big. You can see them.

            As far as the vector for Lyme Disease, it is not white-tailed deer as was once supposed, but the white-footed mouse, and the very best way of controlling the mouse population is the fox which really snarfs them down.

            As a disease control measure, fox populations need to be encouraged, built up in areas of serious Lyme Disease. Fox hunting and trapping needs to be stopped in these areas.

            David Quammen writes a great deal about this in his recent opus, ““Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Human Pandemic.”

            • Ida Lupine says:

              But we do have an overpopulation of them, and I’d much rather see them part of the natural food chain for predators than to starve.

            • WM says:


              Are you suggesting ticks are not a Lyme Disease vector, or is the mouse thing some kind of intermediate host that serves as a physical carrier from one location to another?

              The national Center for Disease Control (CDC) seems to think it is only the black legged tick, but doesn’t speak to how things move around geographically:


              Can you clarify?

              • Leslie says:

                Northern California has become overrun with ticks and Lyme disease is on the rise there. If the white-footed mouse is the vector, how come with the bulgeoning deer population in CA, deer ticks (those are the teeny tiny ones), which are the lyme vector, have become prominent. Not sure how this spreads from the east to west through the mouse.

                Wyoming doesn’t appear to have the disease but it could be the extreme dry weather and my understanding is that altitude plays a part as ticks ‘burst’ above about 7000′.

            • Immer Treue says:

              A sort of nature’s Koyaanisqatsi on humans.


              Ralph, yes and no.

              Deer Control for the Prevention of Lyme disease
              Deer have an important role in the life cycle of the ticks that transmit Lyme disease. Adult deer ticks need a blood meal before laying eggs and most frequently this is obtained by feeding on deer. Therefore, while deer do not serve as a source of infection, deer control can play a role in prevention of Lyme disease when used as part of an integrated pest management program to reduce tick populations.


              • Ida Lupine says:

                Immer, this map was on the front page of our Sunday paper last week. I have to ask myself what is different about our area than the others. Predators. A little simplistic an answer perhaps, but it got me wondering.

                From the map, there’s less evidence of Lyme around the Great Lakes, but again, what is different? You’ve got predators.

                The Western states have virtually none. Is it latitude? Climate change? More pets in the Northeast?

                I’m very careful when I’m out hiking, and I’ve gotten good at identifying which tick to watch out for. Nothing will keep me from hiking.

              • Ida Lupine says:

                Or the Western states have virtually no Lyme disease.

              • Immer Treue says:


                Probably a combination of a number of things. Dense, moist woodlands. Plenty of food and cover for white footed mouse. Probably more deer than historical levels, with much more food, agricultural and ornamental, as well as artificial (feeding by humans). In the East, no predators in terms of indigenous folks or large predators such as wolves. Artificial removal of predators such as fox…

                As with CWD, too much of a “good” thing isn’t necessarily good.

              • Ralph Maughan says:

                The ticks are most numerous, not in the large northeastern woodlands, but in the small wood lots such as occur in suburbia.

                That is because the small suburban wood lots do not harbor predators of the white footed mouse (or of deer).

              • Nancy says:

                You could spend a good part of the day checking out the links here re: the origins of Lyme Disease:


        • Ida Lupine says:

          If management goes into state hands, it is beyond your scope, isn’t it. Too bad. 🙂

          • SaveBears says:

            “If management goes in to state hands, it is beyond your scope” hmm, there are a lot of people that are trying to circumvent state management in the NRM region, why would it be any different in NY?

            • Ida Lupine says:

              There might be, but generally wanton killing offends the sensibilities of people here.

              We may never have wolves, but it is nice to rediscover our own parks, and if the goal of the Interior Department is to get inner city kids out into nature, we certainly have some magnificent examples a lot closer than Yellowstone. If people don’t feel comfortable having their vacation dollars supporting bad wildlife policies, there are beautiful areas much closer to home, and where children are encouraged to learn about wolves without propaganda at bus stops. I’m planning to rediscover them.

              • SaveBears says:

                Ida, I really have no problem with you rediscovering wolves, but why is it up to you to ensure others rediscover wolves? Really when it comes down to it, it is not your business what other discover or rediscover.

                That is the problem with all of this, each side wants to impose their belief’s on the other and we can see, that ain’t working!

              • Ida Lupine says:

                It isn’t up to me really. I’m just thinking that others might feel the same way I do. I’m guessing that majority of people don’t care at all. And the Interior cares more about the park menus that the parks themselves!

              • SaveBears says:

                Ida, based on what I have read, seen and heard for the last 20+ years, you have it right, the majority don’t care and the National Park Service as we know it, is a sham, what is really bad, is I don’t even think they care about the park menu’s, let alone the parks.

  24. Ida Lupine says:

    Looks like the wolf might still be necessary as the Grand Overseer of the predator chain:

    • Ida Lupine says:

      Poor things. This evil targeting of parks wolves has to stop.

      • SaveBears says:

        Guess what, it is not going to.

        • Leslie says:

          not much Lamar Valley wolf watching this year

          • SaveBears says:


            I can’t say, I am sorry, humans and human predation on wildlife is part of life these days, the wolves were not suppose to be reintroduced to provide visitor wildlife viewing experiences, they were reintroduced to bring balance back to the ecosystem, unfortunately to many that pay attention think they were reintroduce for their entertainment.

            • Ida Lupine says:

              Yes. But I hope they are still there.

              • Ida Lupine says:

                What am I saying? I could never stop visiting Yellowstone and Teton Park. I remember when I first saw the Tetons, I almost fell down in awe. The lobby of the hotel had this huuuuuge window, and what a view.

                But I don’t know what to say about bringing it online, and trendy coffee. I guess I could appreciate the trendy coffee. 🙂

                But please put a buffer zone around it to protect it from the SSS crowd. Don’t make it easy for them to destroy wolves. It’s a little worrisome to see politicians mobilizing against the ESA.

              • SaveBears says:

                Ida, the wolf issues, could be the downfall of the ESA as we know it.

            • Louise Kane says:

              Save bears your comment poo poos the multi million dollar industry that revolves around wildlife watching and worse yet if, as you claim, wolves “were reintroduced to to bring back balance to the ecosystem” than your statement completely ignores the effect that excessive hunting is having on all wolves in the NRM, and elsewhere. Do hunters have some kind of superior right to kill wildlife that trumps those of wildlife watchers? Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people stood behind wolf recovery to correct the void after their extirpation. People like Leslie and Immer regularly comment on the enjoyment they get from seeing or hearing wolves, and then have also commented on losing “their” wolves. I for one never believed the same extirpation policies would once again be pushed by the states or tolerated by the federal government. Its their job to protect all of out interests, not just special interests. And the ESA is in place to protect threatened species. Wolves are threatened by human ignorance and hate, and now with ESA protections stripped in most places it matters they are threatened by excessive killing. The story in Psychology Today, When a Wolf Dies, makes me so unbearably sad. If this is life for the park wolves where some measure of protection exists, I can’t imagine the hell humans have created for the wolves that live in land littered with snares, traps and where they are hunted almost year round. Humans know enough to understand undeniably that wolves are social creatures that grieve, feel loss, and care deeply for their young. The strength of their packs directly correlates to their ability to survive. Ignoring the social relationships of these animals in their management is sinister and heartless. Unconscionable. Which family among us would survive where our family members were regularly and randomly executed and we needed to adjust each time to that loss while also living in a war zone. This is what the states have done to wolves. There is no excuse to randomly kill wolves that are not killing livestock or threatening humans. Two human fatalities in a hundred years, with one disputed, is a negligble offense for the widespread wrath the states rain down on wolves. Ida said it must stop, and that is true but not just for park wolves… for all wolves. Every person here who claims to care deeply about wildlife is bright enough to recognize that state management of wolves is unconscionable and indefensible. I’ve yet to hear one reasonable explanation to manage wolves this way. I am heartbroken and disgusted.

            • Ida Lupine says:

              But what’s different today is that there are a lot more people and a lot less animals, so hunting them is not sustainable in the long term, anywhere in the world.

              On top of those that go extinct every day, I think much of our iconic wildlife is going to go extinct, even in my lifetime, but I hope I don’t live to see it.

              • SaveBears says:


                Many species population numbers are higher than they have ever been.

              • Louise Kane says:

                most species don’t over hunt, trap, snare and hold killing contests to eliminate particular species. Ida’s point is how do you square ideas about sustainability if you don’f factor in the immense alterations to predator prey relationships and human influence. Where increased hunting effort as well as technological advances pit animals against men and technology how can certain wildlife populations be sustained responsibly? Throw in habitat loss and fragmentation, and “natural” mortality and its a losing war. Humans need to be more respectful, less invasive and revise ideas of wildlife management that ignore ecological repercussions of eliminating predators in systems. Predator populations and large mammal populations are crashing worldwide. I guess it depends on how you measure success but success to me is not 450 of one species in out largest states where thousands once roamed.

              • SaveBears says:

                Louise as I said, go preach to someone else, I know all of the issues involved in the wolves as well as other species. Ida and I communicate quite well, you don’t need to tell me what her point is. By the way, you did read the article that stated the USFWS says that they are a recovered species with over 6100 wolves in the lower 48.

              • Ida Lupine says:

                Yes, SB, I think we do. Considering we might have been at opposite sides of the argument, but we aren’t. I’ve learned a lot from those who don’t see things exactly the same way I do.

                Have a good day, all –

              • SaveBears says:

                Ida, have a great day, all I have to look forward to on this beautiful Rocky Mountain day, is changing the damn ball joints in my truck!


  25. jon says:

    Science does not support what these people say about wolves.

    • Rancher Bob says:

      From what I read this article was written for people like you. Could it be they just hit to close to home. There were few to no wolves in this part of the world for quite some time so where did these wolves come from? What do we call people from different regions who now live here? What exactly is your problem with calling them canadian wolves?

      • jon says:

        They are not canadian wolves. This articles shows people that these people who hate wolves and live close to them are very misinformed about wolves. What is the difference between a gray wolf and a canadian gray wolf? None, but these people who wrote the article in the link above are clueless about wolves.

        • Ida Lupine says:

          Evidently Dan Ashe thinks they are the same species because he is including them in the total numbers of wolves to justify taking them off the Endangered list:

          Today, officials say at least 1,670 gray wolves roam the Northern Rockies and another 4,430 are in the western Great Lakes Population. Ashe added that another 65,000 wolves are in Canada and Alaska.

          But what wolf? Grey or another?

          • Ida Lupine says:

            Look at America’s map, for a supposedly progressive country:

            Ashe compared the Amerian Bison estimated at 550,000 to justify the wolf delisting – that it doesn’t occuply its historic range, but far from facing extinction.

            He can’t include wolves living in Canada in the numbers to justify taking American wolves off the endangered list. You can barely see the range on the map. They can’t used the concept of range when it suits them. American wolves will extirpated without protection.

            It’s all rather vague and misleading, and the USFWS hasn’t finished the job it set out to do. Why is th Obama adminstration so dead-set on delisting wolves? It is about the only thing that actually gets done.

              • Ida Lupine says:

                From the looks of this map, if they are going to delist wolves everywhere in the lower 48, they should not be hunted at all except for livestock depredation.

            • Leslie says:

              Ashe using the 500,000 bison analogy ignores the fact that only a teeny tiny sliver of those bison are genetically pure. Most of those are infected with cattle genes and are raised as livestock, and they do not roam free as wild animals.

              I don’t understand understand this statement in the FWS Q&A section…”The comprehensive review is based on the
              best scientific information available and determined that the current listing for gray wolf erroneously included large geographical areas, all or portions of 29 eastern states, outside the
              historical range of the gray wolf.”

              What does this mean? That there is a completely different wolf species that inhabited the eastern states? or there were never wolves there, which would be completely erroneous? I could use a little help interpreting their ‘taxonomic error’ statement.

              I find it also laughable their ‘what are the states saying’ section

              Utah has high praise for delisting…Utah has no wolves!

              • Leslie says:

                “Ashe didn’t agree with that assessment, saying that wolf populations continue to thrive and Wyoming, on its own initiative, agreed to scale back the wolf harvest after its first hunting season.”

                Another strange statement. Wyoming ‘agreed’ to scale back because they were getting too close to the relisting number of 100 wolves outside the Park and 50 inside.

              • Ida Lupine says:

                “The comprehensive review is based on the best scientific information available and determined that the current listing for gray wolf erroneously included large geographical areas, all or portions of 29 eastern states, outside the
                historical range of the gray wolf.

                I thought the grey wolf’s range was in the Eastern states.

                Utah is part of the wolf hater’s cabal. Orin Hatch I am disappointed in.

              • Ida Lupine says:

                My understanding is that the Eastern wolf (Canis lupus lycaon) is a subspecies. But I also thought the grey wolf overlapped. At any rate, there is disagreement in the scientific community:

                from Wikipedia:

                Eastern wolf was recently recognized as a potentially distinct species, but closely related to red wolf. Some authors disagree and the status as a distinct species is not official. Now, many international and government organizations carry out scientific research for their taxonomy and genetics to answer this question, as well as researching their ecology and influence on the ecosystem.

                On March 31, 2010, a presentation by Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources research scientist Brent Patterson outlined key findings about the eastern wolf (and coyotes): Most coyotes in Eastern Ontario are wolf-coyote hybrids; wolves in Algonquin Park are, in general, not inter-breeding with coyotes; and the buffer zone around Algonquin Park is a great success with mortality rates down and populations remaining stable.[

                from Wikipedia


      • jon says:

        That does not apply to animals. Wolves are not immigrants. Calling a wolf an immigrant makes you look silly rancher bob.

        • Robert R says:

          Jon really!
          Immigrants know no boarders and neither do animals. There are subspeicies in any animal and the latitude and geographical location determines the size of an animal.
          Maybe we should call introduced wolf the lower 48 wolf.
          They were never (reintroduced) they were introduced.

          Robert R, I commented on your comment here below (far down the thread). In essence, I think what you say here is almost totally wrong. Webmaster

          • jon says:

            No Robert, the wolves were reintroduced, not introduced. Do you know what introduce means? it means first time. Wolves have always been in Montana and Idaho before they were extirpated by ignorant humans who hated them with a passion.

          • Immer Treue says:


            JHC! I thought you had more sense, but this is at least the third time in recent times you have alluded to the wolves brought into Yellowstone and Idaho were not the same type as we’re once present.

            What’s next, the indigenous wolf was there all along, light in color, existing on mice and hare while peacefully coexisting with elk? Why don’t you bring some Dr. Charles Kay into the discussion as well. Been going through some of his stuff, and it is quite enlightening.

            • Robert R says:

              Immer the type is the same in any animal but the subspeicies is the difference is it not.

              • Immer Treue says:

                Do you mean to tell me that the wolf that was brought to Yellowstone and Idaho did NOT appear in the area prior to “re”introduction?

              • Robert R says:

                Ok let’s say there is five subspeicies of wolves in North America for argument sake. so which one is the right subspeicies for the NRM’S.

              • Leslie says:

                Robert, do you know what subspecies means? All Canis lupis can interbreed. Subspecies are usually just regional adaptations. In general, the colder the climate the larger the animal–Bergmanns rule…

              • Robert R says:

                Leslie your right and that was part of my point.

            • jon says:

              Immer, you should not be surprised. Hunters like Robert tend to think alike when it comes to wolves. A lot of hunters in Montana do really believe that a canadian wolf is somehow different than the “native” timber wolf that lived in Idaho and Montana once upon a time. On the other hand, you have some hunters and ranchers who believe that a gray wolf period is not native to Montana or Idaho regardless if they are irremotus or occidentalis.

              • Rita k Sharpe says:

                I wonder what the Canadians say about those miniature wolves we have or had in the United States ? Everything must be meaner and bigger in Canada.

              • Immer Treue says:


                It’s not the “hunter” thing. Robert has contributed to past discussions. We are all entitled to what we believe is philosophically correct. Yet, I grow increasingly weary of this bullshit in regard to the wolf brought in to the NRM was: some exotic beast of mythological proportions, a vector of disease; a vehicle to bring hunting to an end; a tool to remove guns; a pestilence to the Serengeti of the NRM ( as artificial as that is); a threat to the legions of children at school (another boogeyman of the antis)bus stops; ad infinitum. These people can all go to the hell, and take their righteous spirituality with them.

                It’s got nothing to do with hunting but everything to do with coexisting.

                Oh, and by the way, if you want a Samurai put up your posterior, go tell the Japanese they’re subspecies of the Koreans.


              • jon says:

                I’ll have to disagree immer.Most of this canadian wolf nonsense comes from the hunting and ranching communities. I am very positive that you know this. Like you and may others, I too get sick and tired of the mistruths that constantly come out of the mouths of those that seem to hate wolves. I wish these people would just come out and admit their true feelings. They hate all wolves. Nobody for one seconds believes they like one wolf, but hate another just because it may be a different subspecies.

              • Ida Lupine says:

                I hate thinking that these poor animals are just trying to survive, and they have no concept that there are people in Washington plotting against them. Against an animal. They have no voice and no defense from it. Even in modern times. It is just terrible ane evil.

              • SaveBears says:

                Jon, you are one of the problems, your hatred of hunters, is just fueling the fires of this debate, you are starting to sound like Mike from Chicago.

            • Leslie says:

              Immer, thank you for enlightening me to this nutcase ‘Dr.’ Kay. I looked at a few of his ‘scientific’ arguments and laughed. I like the Farley Mowat one, but he forgot to mention Mowat’s alter wolf ego, Jack London. I was thinking about it this morning when a lone wolf was spying on me exercising in my front yard. Was that a London or a Mowat example?

          • Ralph Maughan says:

            Robert R

            This is the rejected argument that the Northern Rockies once harbored a sub-species named canis lupis irremotus. Biologists have determined that such a sub-species never existed, and for good reason. You need relative breeding isolation for a sub-species to develop. There no breeding isolation. Topography makes it impossible.

            Robert have you ever been to Alberta and British Columbia? It is typographically Idaho and Montana continued. It is a natural corridor for migration south.

            The wolves that were brought down from Canada came from a distance that wolves migrate, and since their reintroduction a number of them have migrated that great a distance and more. OR-7 is only the latest of several well documented migrations.

            The wolves to the north might have been a bit larger than those here originally, but then they might not have been. No one knows. Regardless, the wolf hunts so far have yielded average sized wolves.

            Hinton, Alberta is not very far north.

            • Robert R says:

              Ralph a wolf is a wolf and a native species is native and animals know no boundaries. I have one question for you and I’ll leave it at that. Is there proof beyond a doubt with DNA?

              • Mark L says:

                Robert R,
                You would had to have collected DNA from wolves that were around ‘right after’ the disappearance of the C. l. irremotus and test for a genetic trace in the ‘Canadian wolves’ that were mixing with them…unless you are saying they wouldn’t mix, and then a wolf wouldn’t be a wolf (they DO breed with each other). Not sure how eslse you would solve the conundrum.

              • Leslie says:

                At this point, when people begin their wolf discussion with ‘Canadian’, it tells me they are just mimicking sound bits and are incapable of an intelligent wolf debate based on any science. If you want to talk about reduced prey in the 21st century because of habitat loss, hunting, etc., I’ll spar with you then.

                ‘Canadian wolf’ is really a made up term and at best, a discussion for the biology ‘splitters’. Species can interbreed. Genus in almost all cases cannot (coyotes and wolves would be an exception here). ‘Canadian’ wolf is like talking about who are the ‘pure’ humans. We can’t interbreed with monkeys but we can with different races. Therefore, we are all humans.

                That was my point. Subspecies are really an invention for biologists, like birders who break down sparrows by their regional songs. They would be still white-crowned sparrows though. Splitters only.

              • Immer Treue says:

                Even Nowak, who the antis like to use as a reference, refutes the idea of a C l irremotus.

                And looking at the map, what geographical barrier existed to prevent his Cl occidentalis from moving further south, where they low and behold, already existed in N Idaho and Montana.

                It’s a mute point. And as Ralph has pointed out about OR 7, and numerous other instances of wolves traveling great distances, wolves don’t stay put.

                How can you tell the difference between a Canadian wolf and a non Canadian wolf. And I know someone said this before, but does the “Canadian” wolf say eh after it howls?

            • WM says:

              I guess I have never really understood, or rather AGREED with the strength of the, “but these are CANADIAN wolves” argument.

              Most species tend to intermingle at the fringes of their ranges, where subtle genetic gradations or certain traits become less obvious than comparing a specimen from deep in the heart of one range and another that is islated deep within a range somewhere else. We have been talking about subspecies of cutthroat trout here in the last month quite a bit, in which the differences in some cases are subtle, and others not so much.

              There is a discussion of this gradation phenomenon in the Mexican Wolf status document done a couple years ago by FWS- really saying at the fringe of their range they wer historically alot like their cousins to the north as individuals of the recognized/unrecognized variants bred.

              We see it in humans too, even moreso now that we have had the ability and motivation to easily travel long distances in the last two hundred plus years.

              Sometimes it is easy to tell where some humans come from, subtle genetic differences pasty skin and upturned or long noses from the British Isles, darker skin/more elongated bodies the closer one gets to the Equater, high cheek bones/almond shaped eyes from the Eurasian Continent in the far East and the South, but more of those genetic classifications have gotten blurred as people have travelled or been subject to political conquest (recall the veritably sun never set on the ancient Roman or more recently the British Empire. Surely some of those migrants folk bred with the locals. Heck it happend in Viet Nam just two generations ago.).

              As Ralph says, not a far distance from the US border to Hinton BC to N. Central ID or Yellowstone country. And then we have those Canadian in-migrant wolves moving in to the NE corner of WA, without any human assistance, not respecting human political borders.

              My reaction is SO frickn’ WHAT, on the mostly subtle (only size seems to matter, and to some degree what wolves prefer to eat, but that seems to change over time too, of necessity).

              What happens when WGL DPS wolves make it west and connect with some dispersing NRM(Canadian Hinton, BC descendents or those naturally coming down from just across the border on the Continental Divide in the mountains of MT) wolves?

              The only folks who really care are the purist conservation biologists and the anti wolfers with yet one more hook to criticize the reintroduction to the NRM. I think there is strength to the argument that both have a political agenda as much as a biological one. And, I for one, think the arugment is ridiculous. Now, if someone wants to bring in wolves from Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia I might have a bigger problem accepting the genetic differences. Genetically, North American wolves, regardless of taxonomic classification/somewhat genetic variation are fine for my somewhat Bohemian leanings.

              Ralph is right, in my view.

              • WM says:

                “….recall, the sun veritably never set on the British Empire and earlier in time..the Roman Empire (Italians).”

              • Mark L says:

                Robert R,
                And speaking of Italians, the same concept seems to work between Homo species too, as some (human!) Italians have several Neanderthal genes…drawing a parallel with red wolves and coyotes in alelle distribution.

              • WM says:

                Geez, first paragraph….SUBspecies

              • Mark L says:

                Me too….allele! Must me a ‘typo virus’ on this site today.

            • Rancher Bob says:

              It’s interesting so many find the term Canadian Wolf so vile, is a Texas Longhorn from Texas originally. It’s a term people from this area are going to use when talking about wolves in this area. The breeding stock of the wolves living here came from Canada, a fact. Is a Canadian wolf the proper name, answer no. When we kill a collared wolf and the collar say’s it’s the property of some where in Canada it looks no different than any other wolf living here. You all can post all the science that it’s a grey wolf you want, in truth your right, but people in this area will call these wolves what ever we want to call them. Many of those names worse than Canadian wolf, so feel all superior that you know it’s a grey wolf, but it breeding came from Canada not here. Therefore it will always be a Canadian wolf or whatever we want to call the SOB’s.

              • Ken Cole says:

                Maybe it’s because the term “Canadian wolf” was coined by someone who intended to misinform and scare people. Something that appears to have worked with you.

              • SaveBears says:


                I might agree with you if wolves recognized invisible lines drawn on the maps, but they don’t and when it comes to wildlife, we really shouldn’t either. I am very close to Canada where I live and see wolves quite often, I don’t know if they were born here or Canada, but really it does not matter. Wolves have been running around this part of NW Montana, long before it was NW Montana.

              • JB says:


                The reason people find “Canadian wolf” so offensive is because it is almost always used in conjunction with the silly ‘these wolves are differ’nt than the ones that lived here’ argument (the adjective “Canadian” being used to point out that difference). When someone calls a wolf a ‘Canadian wolf’ you can’t tell if they’re ignorant of biology or purposefully trying to perpetuate a myth. In either case, it should be obvious why people find this offensive.

              • Mark L says:

                Rancher Bob says,

                “You all can post all the science that it’s a grey wolf you want, in truth your right, but people in this area will call these wolves what ever we want to call them. Many of those names worse than Canadian wolf, so feel all superior that you know it’s a grey wolf, but it breeding came from Canada not here. Therefore it will always be a Canadian wolf or whatever we want to call the SOB’s.”

                Works both ways Bob. There are PLENTY of derogatory names for people too…but use them in the wrong area or at the wrong time and somebody gets an ass whuppin’ (which is how it should be). Oddly enough, if more people used longhorns, the wolf vs. cattle issue would be alleviated somewhat by ‘better’ suited cattle. The problem isn’t the native predators, it’s the wusses for cattle that can’t defend themselves through breeding for money.

              • jon says:

                “Therefore it will always be a Canadian wolf or whatever we want to call the SOB’s.”

                Thank you for finally admitting that YOU HATE WOLVES.

              • jon says:

                99% of the time, I never agree with sb on anything, but he is right. It’s not so much the name, it’s the intent behind the name. People who don’t like these wolves want to pretend like they are a completely different wolf that used to live in Idaho and Montana. Most of these people who hate wolves never lived with the so called “native” wolves and by all accounts, these native wolves were also elk, deer, and livestock killers. I find it hard to believe why some would like one gray wolf and hate another. It makes no sense to me. I’ve came to the conclusion some time ago that it’s not about the subspecies and it never was. It’s about the animal and these people who hate the gray wolves that are there in Idaho and Montana now, hate all gray wolves no matter what subspecies they are or where they come from. I’ll tell you one thing rb, them “canadian” gray wolves were in North America long before you or your man introduced livestock.

              • Robert R says:

                I guess what it comes down to is don’t believe e everything in text, so you can’t believe what the average joe says or a scientist.
                Maybe this not to everyone’s liking but is what it is.

              • Immer Treue says:

                Well hell’s bells, Cl occidentalis must be up here in NE MN as I have observed a pack of 8 from black to white and everything in between, and black wolves on two other occasions.

                Black gene supposedly comes from dogs, and as Asian wolves don’t have the black color, it is specific to NA wolves. So, is it a product of continual breeding with dogs, which seems unlikely as wolves would just as soon kill dogs, or the more likely case that wolves move, at times over great distances? I’ll opt for the latter.

              • jon says:

                that article is very old robert r and outdated. I believe it was immer on here who said there are now 5 subspecies of canis lupus. Others on here can tell you that the number of subspecies has been brought down to 5 or so. As I understand it, the number of subspecies was brought down to 5 because wolf experts see very few differences between the subspecies of gray wolves.

              • Leslie says:

                Worth noting that lots of biologists, the lumpers, don’t even recognize subspecies in wolves. All these subspecies analysts are just a bunch of anal splitters who like to overthink these things. Here’s another read from 2012 FWS.

                Frankly, from doing more reading, there just isn’t enough DNA available to make these calls, being that we conveniently killed off most of the wolves in the lower 48.

      • zach says:

        The same thing we call white Christians…

  26. Leslie says:

    Uh oh…now what are these guys up to.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      Oh Boy. Just the names say it all.

    • Louise Kane says:

      “The ESA is an invaluable tool that was passed to protect threatened and endangered species from special interests that would squander the species that need help to remain viable. The people of America support these ideals. This committee made up of people like Cynthia Lummis smacks of an ill- concealed attempt to abrogate its provisions and original intent. Please go back into your holes and leave our wildlife alone. And please re- list wolves. The states are committing atrocities against these magnificent animals. Lummis et al you are fooling no one”

  27. jon says:

    What other predator is kept at low levels? How many bears and cougars are in Wyoming? I suspect many hundreds if not thousands and yet wolves have to be kept low. The chances of wolves being put back on the endangered species list in WY are fairly good. Given the fact that WY want to keep the wolf population very low and they treat wolves as vermin in just about all of the state, it’s fair to say that it’s looking pretty good for WY wolves to be returned to the endangered species list.

  28. CodyCoyote says:

    here is an interesting journalistic thesis from Olga Khazan at The Atlantic. Satellite data set against historic data are pretty definitive about coal burning causing the lion’s share of the devastating drought in West Africa in the 60’s and 70’s which saw hundreds of thousand of people lose their lives and the landscape decimated.

    Even if it’s only partially true or just contributory , it’s implications should not be ignored. Please note the culprit identified is not CO2 and global warming, but the sooty aerosols produced by coal stacks COOLING the atmosphere and shifting the rain patterns further south.

    • Immer Treue says:

      And another black bear attack in MN, just a few days ago.

      • Louise Kane says:

        Interesting and very sad that the random unusual bear or predator attacks are emphasized as significant events when humans impose mayhem on wildlife every day.

        I wonder what predators might write if they used written language.

        Amber alert warning…

        Once again, a red alert is issued in all western states for bears, cougars, wolves, coyotes, foxes and wolverines.

        Please use extreme caution when traveling, feeding, or drinking at streams. Men that appear to be suffering from some form of insanity, and that are dressed in orange have been observed attacking and killing entire families of wolves, coyotes, bears, and other predators that they encounter.

        Please take all precautions to protect your young. Instruct pups and cubs to stay away from all humans, to watch for wires, protruding devices in the soil, and to stay away from any food left in plain sight. It is also not safe to use known watering holes or to travel by day.

        Terrorist attacks are not isolated to adults. Pups and cubs are routinely and savagely attacked, as are innocent bystanders and the elderly. In some instances the elderly are attacked and then are skinned and their bodies left to decay in sight of their families.

        In recent days, more than 20 neighborhood bear cubs were chased by shrieking men and packs of vicious dogs. At least five cubs were torn to shreds, while the humans laughed. This morning a mother wolf was executed while her family watched from the forest. The pups are orphaned now as their father was murdered in a prior human encounter. The aging aunts and uncles are now trying to hide the pups from the murderers.

        Experts are attempting to understand the rise in violence. Some believe that humans are suffering from a rare form of rabies. Other theories are that the attacks stem from border disputes and that humans intend to drive all predators from the territories they now claim.

        Members of the society for human and predator coexistence are attempting to negotiate a truce at borders where disputes arise but it appears that humans are unwilling to negotiate and intend on executing all wolves and coyotes. It is expected that some bears and cougars will be allowed to live in specified areas but they will not be protected from the yearly random attacks by the men in orange, until a cure can be found for the killing disease.

        To date more than several thousand bears, wolves, cougar, fox and coyotes have been killed in the first few months of the disputes in Idaho and Montana alone. In Utah more than four thousand coyotes were executed in a three day terrorist attack by men also dressed in orange and appearing to suffer from an extremely dangerous form of the insanity disease. Entire communities were massacred with prizes being given among the humans for who killed the most, the smallest and largest of the coyotes.

        Experts are hoping a vaccine may be developed to treat the infected humans in orange soon and that this may allow the border issues to be negotiated separately.

        Please use extreme caution when conducting any daily living activities, make preparations for your pups or cubs in the event your family is affected, and stay hidden until further notice.

    • Nancy says:

      Hey Jeff E – a few minutes on the internet, with the right people and oh my!

      (Hopefully it won’t be as painful (or as expensive) as “reintroducing” an important predator like the wolf, back on the landscape 🙂

      “Yes, you’re right. The decline of whitebark pine is a huge issue across the western United States. High elevation whitebark pine forests are declining extensively due to disease and insect infestations. One way to stem the loss of these important forests is to plant blister rust resistant whitebark pine seedlings. We, the National Forest Foundation, are doing this currently on Washington’s Okanagan Wenatchee National Forest. In a couple years, we will be expanding our work in the arena by planting whitebark pine trees on the Idaho Panhandle National Forest. Thanks for your inquiry on this important issue!
      If you’d like to contribute towards those efforts, feel free to reach back out to me

      • Leslie says:

        Glad to hear that they are finally doing that. This research for resistant trees has been going on intensely for a long time.

        In terms of the bears though, it takes about 50 years before white bark trees cone.

        Despite the judicial mandated whitebark study before delisting, seems like the USFW and states are hell-bent on delisting. It will be interesting to see what their ‘fly-over’ studies come up with. In my area you can walk it and see 90% of the mature whitebarks are dead. In my hiking through the Winds, in the last 2 years the count went from about 20% to 45% dead. I’ll be there again this summer and wonder if that death is accelerating.

      • Ralph Maughan says:


        This is tremendously important. Thank you for your good work.

  29. Immer Treue says:

    Yellowstone Unravelling:  The Ecosystem is in Grave Peril and the Most Damage is Caused by Elk

    September 1996 tome to which anti- wolf favorite Charles Kay contributes.  Pay particular attention to the Northern Yellowstone herd.

    • Immer Treue says:

      Allow me to indulge myself in response to my own thread. It does tie in a bit with Cody Coyotes thread about Middleton and elk numbers.

      From the above 1996 article:…”National Park Policy has allowed elk numbers to increase from 3100 in1968 to some 20,000 today on the northern range – ‘what they’re changing this into is a lawn. There’s more to an ecosystem than grass,’ says Charles Kay…”

      And the kicker

      “Tourists like abundant viewing opportunities for wildlife in the park (Yellowstone). To which Kay bluntly replies:”if you want lots of elk and bison to make the tourists happy,its not a nature park, it’s a theme park-it’s entertainment. So you might as well let Disney run it.”

      Pause for deep breath. This is a guy who the anti wolf folks like to quote. How many times have you heard/ saw pro wolf folks accused of Disneyfying nature? Well, the drama queen Rockholm keeps pushing his “Yellowstone is Dead” tripe because so
      Many of the elk are now gone. Who is guilty of Disneyfying Yellowstone? According to Dr. Charles Kay, it would appear that Mr. Rockholm has some Disneyfied egg on his face.

      More interesting stuff to come.

  30. CodyCoyote says:

    A couple of notations from the upcoming annual meeting of the Western Governors Association in Park City Utah , on June 28-30, open to the Governors of 19 western US States and guested by the westernmost Canadian provinces.

    • Idaho Governor Butch Otter is the chairman of the roundtable on Endangered Species Act ( I suppose because among the Yankee Guvs and Canuck Premiers, his last name most resembles an animal )

    • Attendees will be treated to a special pre-screening of the new Walt Disney movie starring Johnny Depp, ” The Lone Ranger “. That soireé will likely be the most productive at the 3-day confab.

    • WM says:

      ++Idaho Governor Butch Otter is the chairman of the roundtable on Endangered Species Act ( I suppose because among the Yankee Guvs and Canuck Premiers, his last name most resembles an animal )++

      Or it could be that Butch is just the latest in the spotlight now over wolves (since Gov. Mead seems to have other plans for the Conference).;) And, WA and OR have already had their turns as experienced ESA moderators with spotted owl, fisher and marbled murellet protections that basically killed their logging industries and brought persistent poverty to some of their coastal timber communities. But, how about “blue Jay” for a backup moderator nomination?

      Water transfers to ameliorate the persistent drought is also a hot topic.

      Gotta remember, Governors and their respective political parties have lots to think about regarding their local economies. Jobs or lack of jobs is high on the list of things that get them re-elected or kicked out, just like Presidents (who in this instance speaks through a new Secretary of Interior and FWS agency director).

      • JB says:

        “Water transfers to ameliorate the persistent drought is also a hot topic.”

        One benefit of the Rs and TPs constant efforts to limit the power of the federal government– those of us in the Great Lakes states will be able to tell westerners where they can go when they come looking for our water. 😉

        • Ida Lupine says:

          Ha! 🙂

        • WM says:

          Unphased by gravity, water in the West historically flowed toward money. While the days of the big federal water projects are likely long gone, there is no particular reason to believe this rule of econophysics is altered in the 21st Century. Water still flows toward money, aided by political will. Watch them closely, those Westerners will steal your water – they steal amongst themselves if they think they can get away with it, and they are constantly trying.

          Remember continental weather flows generally from west to east. If Western states can figure a way to seed clouds or alter weather patterns economically and without adverse environmental effects before those clouds leave the West, Ohio could become a desert. Just sayin’. 😉

          • Immer Treue says:


            “Remember continental weather flows generally from west to east. If Western states can figure a way to seed clouds or alter weather patterns economically and without adverse environmental effects before those clouds leave the West, Ohio could become a desert.”

            Only problem with this logic is the rainshadow effect of the Rocky Mountains. Very little moisture in the atmosphere until Gulf moisture works it’s way in farther east.

            • WM says:


              You are right. I was just teasing JB.

              The important part to remember is that water in the West is a precious commodity (ever see the Jack Nicholson movie Chinatown?).

              When I was in grad school at what is now the Warner NR School at Colorado State Univeristy, I wrote a paper in a watershed/hydrology class that looked at the use of long chain alcohols to suppress surface evaporation from reservoirs, and another on a proposed massive removal of tamarisk (also called saltcedar), a highly water consumptive and drought resistant non-native invasive species riparian tree of the Southwest, to increase water retention for beneficial use. This was about the time they started looking at and first using silver iodide crystals for cloud seeding to increase rain and snowpack in the Rockies, before those even marginally moist clouds headed for the Great Plains to merge with the stuff moving north from the Gulf.

              • Immer Treue says:


                I figured you knew as much. Sometimes we just like to hear ourselves. Interesting thing going on in Illinois and Wisconsin in regard to Lake Michigan water, towns on other side of watershed to L Michigan have wells drying up and have found some pretty nasty stuff in their water, Wisconsin in particular. Last I heard the states were pretty steadfast in NOT allowing Lake Michigan water to be piped into those areas. Something to be said co the importance of H2O, eh?

            • sleepy says:

              @immer treue

              Slightly OT–You live in northeastern Minnesota, correct?

              I was up in the boundary waters area this past weekend and saw what I am assuming to be 2 wolves crossing the Grade between the Sawbill Trail and the Caribou Trail near Lichen Lake. They looked too large to be coyotes. Question–are there coyotes in the area, or did I see 2 wolves? I am guessing that wolves keep the coyotes out for the most part.

              • Immer Treue says:


                There are coyotes up here. I’ve seen them and have pictures of them on the game camera. Every once in a while, I’ve seen coyotes passing through Ely.

              • sleepy says:

                @Immer Treue


                I’ve never seen a wolf in the wild before–seen plenty of coyotes and these were larger–so I’ll just stick to my optimistically biased guesstimate that what I saw were two wolves.

              • Immer Treue says:


                Go with your gut. Did you stay dry? Too bad the telemetry data has been taken down by the IWC (because of hunting/trapping). There was a time you. Oils have seen if there was wolf pack activity in a given area.

                Regardless. If wolves, with the way vegetation. Ecomes so thick up here, it was a good observation on your part.

          • JB says:

            “…Ohio could become a desert.”

            Ha! You’ve vastly underestimated the importance of breadbasket farmers (and the people who protect their interests). The Great Lakes states (i.e., PA, NY, OH, IN, IL, MI, WI, MN) contain a very significant portion of the US’s population, and the majority of our agricultural lands. So you’re not only facing states’ rights, but an extremely powerful voting block (not to mention Canadian interests, eh). 😉

            • sleepy says:

              @Immer Treue

              Arrived Friday and left Sunday. Beautiful warm sunny weather until we hit Two Harbors on our way back. Then it poured the next 300 miles to Iowa.

              The wolves I saw were crossing the road, so vegetation wasn’t an issue. It was near to the same area a large moose crossed in front of us last year. Must be my lucky spot!

              Funny when and where you see wildlife. I spent a few weeks in Newfoundland last year which as a large black bear population. Saw plenty of caribou and moose, but no bears until we were nearly home in northern Iowa. Then out of the blue, a black bear ran out of the cornfields across the highway, 10 minutes from my house in an area and a state where bears are virtually unknown.

              BTW–there has been some confirmed evidence of an occasional wolf in northeastern Iowa. Makes sense since there is at least one confirmed wolfpack in Wisconsin about 50 miles northeast of the state line.

  31. CodyCoyote says:

    Arthur Middleton , PhD, has released another paper derived from the 5-year Absaroka Elk Ecology Study done in northwest Wyoming and funded mainly by hunting organizations. He was principal researcher . This paper , published this week in the ” Ecology” journal, is called ” “Linking anti-predator behaviour to prey demography reveals limited risk effects of an actively hunting large carnivore”. It concludes that wolves have only a minor impact on elk herd reproductivity. The declines are more due to grizzlies eating new calves, coupled with habitat factors galore.

    Read more:

    Please note the paragraph quote from Tom Toman, the science and planning director for the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, who provided the bulk of the funding for Middleton’s study . Toman sounds almost conciliatory about the findings, which is at odds with the negatory rhetoric about wolves that has been spewing from RMEF in the past couple years.

    Guess the hunting clubs will have to shop around elsewhere for their science.

    • Leslie says:

      Cody, these are results from his dissertation and I’m glad that he is writing it up for publication. I was wondering why after all this time since his dissertation defense, suddenly he’s all over the news. Listen to a 6 minute interview on WPR

      • CodyCoyote says:

        Leslie- it’s in the news because it’s just now in appearing the scientific journals after peer review. Some of those journals are quarterly if not single annual publications. And journalists are a lazy lot or always up against deadline…they need someone else’s words out there first to ” borrow” from wholesale.

    • SAP says:

      Hear that sound? Heads exploding on both ends of the wolf spectrum:

      ‘If wolves’ presence doesn’t shift elk to new territory or prevent them from getting pregnant, then they also may not be the cause of the increase in willows and aspen in the Yellowstone area, as previously believed, he said.

      “Even if wolves play a role it’s likely considerably smaller than we thought,” Middleton said.’

      Side note: I knew Tom Toman back in the early 90s when he was still with WY G&F. He was an honorable and ethical public employee. I’ve been curious how he’s getting along at RMEF under Dr. NASCAR.

    • Rancher Bob says:

      This study may have let the wolf slip off the hook some but how about those who want to hunt grizzlies. Looks like ammo for large caliber hunting.

      I thought those sounds were thunder on a sunny day.

    • Louise Kane says:

      hopefully they won’t be targeting grizzlies with the same vengeance as wolves. I imagine its too much to hope for some enlightened response by those harboring such hate for wolves.

  32. JEFF E says:

    Now, if I was a little sycophant that lived in Maine or any of his disciples, I would blame wolves for this, because as we all know, dogs descended from wolves, so wolves have to be the vector for this.

  33. Immer Treue says:

    Possible retribution for parvo? 🙂

    Canineparvovirus(CPV)emergedas an apparentlynew virusduringthemid-1970s.The originofCPV is unknown,buta variationfromfelinepanleukopeniavirus(FPV)or anothercloselyrelatedparvovirusis suspected

  34. Ida Lupine says:

    We have way too many domesticated animals, including our pets. I have always suspected that there is more risk to wildlife from us and our pets than vice versa.

  35. jon says:

    Good for California for protecting both wildlife and humans. Other states should follow suit.

    • ZeeWolf says:

      This should be done nationwide, IMHO.

    • Mike says:


      Death by lead poisoning is probably the worst death one could conceive.

      The horrific toll taken on raptors and mammals needs to end.

  36. jdubya says:
    “A scathing decision by an administrative law judge has concluded the Bureau of Land Management underreports impacts of grazing leases on Rich County’s 25,000-acre Duck Creek allotment.

    If the ruling’s reasoning is applied broadly, it could change the way BLM manages grazing on its holdings across the arid West, according to Jim Catlin of Wild Utah Project.”

    Way to go Jim!

    • Ida Lupine says:

      In Vermont, researchers found that the timber rattlesnake population had relatively low genetic diversity, not surprising given its isolation. “Low genetic diversity and a fungal disease is a combination I find very disconcerting,” says Doug Blodgett, a wildlife biologist for the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife.

      Low genetic diversity because they have been driven to near extinction for the same irrational human-only perceptions of reality as the wolf, despoiled the garden of Eden, etc.

  37. Mark L says:

    Yep, lower a population’s genetic diversity along with it’s distribution area and diseases increase damage on remaining population.

  38. timz says:

    This says a lot.
    “Strader said his supervisor, who had accompanied him that day, watched and laughed as the agency’s dogs circled the coyotes and ripped into them. ”

    IMHO they are “stonewalling” because supervisors and managers are involved in this stuff.

    • Louise Kane says:

      can you imagine the kind of people that would laugh about this, and that they might be in a supervisory position. This agency has got to go. with a federal budget in crisis, funding this agency is criminal, as are their actions against wildlife.

      • Ida Lupine says:

        Ha. Well, I imagine there will be those who will laugh when a grizzly rips his arm out of its socket one day. I remember reading an account of that happening to a hiker and I’ve been terrified ever since! 🙂

  39. jon says:

    More hunters advocating the illegal killing of wolves.

  40. Immer Treue says:

    60 days and Ted Nugent still alive and not in jail!

    • Jeff N. says:

      Oops. Wrong link. Let’s try again.

      Pretty interesting motorcycle ride….

      • Ida Lupine says:

        Officials had to issue a wildlife alert last year when pictures of a wolf being fed rice cakes surfaced.

        We really do not have the intellectual capacity to have a voice in managing our wildlife.

      • WM says:

        How about a replay, to make contribution to “best available science.”

        Experiment: This time with a mountain bicycle. First one in daytime. Then one at dusk or near dark. Empirical equipment list: 2 bicycles, 2 cameras and 2 riders. Note to self: Do not tell riders of motorcycle experiment.

        How’s that for an experiment design. And the hypothesis would be????

        • Ida Lupine says:

          The third wolf attack in the history of the United States.

          • Harley says:

            Haven’t there been more than 2 or 3 attacks in the U.S.?

          • Immer Treue says:

            Not an attack and not in US.

            • Harley says:

              Do you define attack as in killed, injured, what is the criteria?


              • Ida Lupine says:

                I would define it as something totally unprovoked, where the person or people did not contribute in any way. Leaving 6 year old children unattended, feeding wild animals, getting too close, going into dangerous areas, not taking the proper precautions would we contributing.

                Many of these examples are people feeding wild wolves or being too close. Utterly ridiculous. I certainly would not describe an ‘attack’ as this example below, but poor judgement on the part of the photographers. We’re supposed to be the smart ones. The author also states that the accounts may or may not be the truth, and the first sentence states that wolf-human encounters are rare.

                But it seems like a propaganda piece to put the seeds of doubt in people’s minds. To think that a wild predator isn’t going to show aggression when someone gets too close is ridiculous. All animals do when threatened.

              • Immer Treue says:


                Some interesting scenarios/encounters. Some recent ones not mentioned, in particular elk and deer hunters, looking like trees, sounding/smelling like what they are hunting, and being approached/investigated by wolves.

              • Immer Treue says:


                Not to oversimplify, but the wolf is a large capable carnivore. Any type of habituation to people should be avoided. Will the same wolf behave identically in identical situations? More than obvious that some of wolves in reports behaved differently from other wolves(in same reports). Natural curiosity of wolves could escalate into incident.

                As an aside, my shepherds have for most part been mellow dogs who were naturally good with most other dogs that did not demonstrate aggressive tendencies. However my prior shepherd had a flashpoint aggression toward an aquaintences shepherd. It took a while to find out why. Watched as friend walked by with her dog, and he peed(posted) on stop sign at corner of lot. First thing my dog would do when he went outside was go directly to that stop sign and cover. As dogs, wolves will behave differently in different circumstances.

              • Ida Lupine says:

                Immer said:

                Any type of habituation to people should be avoided.

                Yes, this is my feeling also. Even the more seemingly benigh contact like wildlife watching, for the continued existence of wolves, may have to be discontinued. And certainly feed them is the wrong thing to do.

                I read one comment in that article, where a 16-year old girl was too close to a wolf, and was injured or nipped at and park scientists attributed it to ‘disiplinary’ or ‘annoyance’ behavior. Almost as if she were another wolf. Wolves have a different way of communicating I would guess, even our pets nip and bite to communicate with each other. We can’t expect them not to act like wolves.

                Hunters disguising themselves, attracting wolves to them with scent, and then complaining about ‘attacks’ really stretches the limit, IMO.

              • Immer Treue says:


                “Hunters disguising themselves, attracting wolves to them with scent, and then complaining about ‘attacks’ really stretches the limit, IMO.”

                I believe ma’iingan has attested to this occurring in Wisconsin, and of course we had the wolf shooting granny last year.

            • Immer Treue says:

              For the weak minded or those who need an explanation…

              “Not an attack and not in US.”

              Comment was in reply to Ida and motorcycle incident in Banff. It’s not in the US. Was it an attack? No.

              • Ida Lupine says:

                I was being sarcastic. Giving an exaggerated example of how the incident might be spun into an attack by those who would be so inclined. Sorry!

              • Immer Treue says:


                Sarcasm noted. My recent reply was not to you, but my varjostaa.

            • Ida Lupine says:

              and of course we had the wolf shooting granny last year.

              lol 🙂 What a visual, from little Red Riding Hood.

        • Jeff N. says:

          Regarding experiment and equipment list. I would add third participant and allow him to have a package of rice cakes handy.

  41. Jeff N. says:

    Since the incident happened in Canada, I’m surprised this Canadian gray wolf, with all it’s ferocity and superpowers, wasn’t able to catch the motorcyclist. They can reach and sustain a speed of 167 mph, and that’s damn fast for a 250 lb. wolf.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      Yes, or leap on to the back of the bike to devour him. 🙂 But who knew the big bad wolf likes rice cakes? Must be his cholesterol.

    • Immer Treue says:

      One of my wolf encounters was on a road bike. Just completed a tough 50+ mile ride at the end of the Fernberg at Lake One (one of main entries into the BWCA and I turned. A k down the road to easy pedal 4-5 miles. I could see a black shape on the right shoulder that appeared to be all legs. When I about twenty yards away I gave it a couple tongue clucks. It looked back at me with those big gold eyes with a bit of “embarrassment” and proceeded to take off into the woods. A spectacular and beautiful animal.

      • Ida Lupine says:

        Now that sounds like quite an encounter. I would love to experience that someday.

        I was sorry to read about what you wrote about MI citizens not realizing what a wolf hunt would mean. Now they can’t stop it. That’s what the citizens of the US would like to avoid.

        Wolf recovery is not a success story yet because it isn’t finished, and now it could be a tragedy. If they hadn’t started hunting immediately, I think most people could have accepted the delisting.

      • WM says:


        If that had been a big cat, like we have so many of in the Northwest, you could have just as easily been dinner, or more readily mistaken for it. We have had a couple such cougar attacks up here on single track bikers.

        • Immer Treue says:


          Did a bit of single track on Mt Bike on a few trips to Colorado. When camping in the Flat Tops, one always had to use caution. The eerie thing was if nature called in the wee hours. Could be a compromising position, which would favor the cat. Always had a dog with me though. Those ears and nose pick up most anything, and a big shepherd in itself might Make a cat think twice.

  42. Louise Kane says:

    Immer and other living in MN…Howling for Wolves fundraiser

  43. Louise Kane says:

    “Recolonizing wolves trigger a trophic cascade in Wisconsin (USA)” by Callan et al. Read the commentary below written by Journal of Ecology Associate Editor Charles Canham.

    “It would be hard to imagine that this study could have been done without access to the long-term data on wolf pack distribution collected by state officials. Ecologists are becoming more and more adept at the use of routine data collected by resource managers, whether for inventory purposes or as measures of regulatory compliance. The questions addressed by Callan and her co-authors are not novel in and of themselves – ecologists have long known that current densities of white-tailed deer are high compared to levels prior to European settlement, and exclosure studies routinely show that deer have strong impacts on abundance and diversity of understory species. But prior to this study there has been only very limited empirical evidence that the presence of predators could alter that dynamic.”

    • Immer Treue says:

      Add to this the enormous agricultural damage ($$$) caused by deer in Wisconsin.

  44. Louise Kane says:

    Salle where are you?
    I remember some time ago, you were looking for the footage of the hunting opsreys. I think I might have posted something in that exchange but I came across this link in another discussion. There are 3 clips of hunting ospreys. The clips are just amazing.

  45. Louise Kane says:

    Jim Robertson posted the information on how to provide a comment on the wolf delisting debacle

  46. jon says:–Federal-Lands-Wyoming

    People need to continue to support western watersheds. They are the good guys.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      The focus of the funding is to expand FWP’s wolf collaring program in areas where the impact on elk, deer and other ungulates is particularly severe. More collars will provide information on wolf territory, home range and the number of wolves in a pack.

      More collaring of wolves. To validate their own preconceived ideas about elk. Yes, we will continue to badmouth them.

      • Ida Lupine says:

        Unless they are saying these newly collared wolves will be protected from being hunted with RMEF’s blessing? lol

      • Robert R says:

        Ida are not all studies wolves good in your opinion.
        Is this not calling the kettle black. After all have biologist/scientist not studied the same thing in Yellowstone who is killing what and who is doing the killing of ungulates. I do believe there are as many or more collared wolves outside of the national parks that FWP monitors.

      • jon says:

        Why collar wolves if FWP is going to let hunters and trappers kill them?

        • jon says:

          RMEF has become anti-wolf in recent years. RMEF would like nothing more than for the wild to be one big giant elk farm with no wolves, bears, or cougars in it.

          • Robert R says:

            Jon say what you want. The land purchases RMEF has made has helped wildlife because the land cannot be sold for subdivisions or worse. No I do not belong to RMEF. I’m trying to look at the positive side here because it does not just pertain to ungulates but also preserving habitat.

            • Louise Kane says:

              preserving big game hunting reserves with no predators…..

              • Robert R says:

                Louise this is where you just don’t understand. You are right about one thing, they are preserving what you keep arguing about, lost habitat.

              • Louise Kane says:

                Robert R I understand completely you appear to be in denial about how these conservation lands are used…(abused)

              • Robert R says:

                Louise do call putting water tanks, removing fences and making feces animal friendly and getting rid of noxious weeds and restricting motorized travel (abuse)
                Every organization has good and bad sides on their actions.
                Why do you always think negative about anyone who don’t fit in your line of thinking. You know I try listening to both sides, pro and con because both sides has good ideas and if they could just work together it could be a positive thing but that never happen.

              • Robert R says:


              • Immer Treue says:

                Feces friendly? I know you corrected it Robert, but all too often my dog thinks deer droppings are very friendly feces.

              • Robert R says:

                Immer you have to love dogs!

              • JEFF E says:

                One of my schipperkes thinks “his own” is very friendly!!

          • Cody Coyote says:

            When RMEF gives money or gives land, keep in mind it always comes with strings attached. Nothing new there. Except in RMEF’s case they use their beneficence and clout to have things both ways…” Yes, we are all for wildlife conservation and habitat improvement…except for wolves ” Yada yada

            What the field of wildlife conservation really needs— both public and private / nonprofit segments—is a total overhaul and rewrite of the North American Wildlife conservation model to include ecosystem wide science management and restoration of predators as an essential component of any sustainable native wildlife or huntable big game habitat area. For starters.

            The North American Model developed by the Teddy Roosevelt clique was ignorant of predation and not exactly a thesis on zoological sciences. What it was instead was game farming disguised as a reconstruction / reformation policy program. Of hunters, for hunters, by hunters. Woefully short of comprehensive.

            RMEF is a contemporary example of that obsolete late 19th century-early 20th century mindset.

            By the way , the last I heard, less than 6 percent of the American populace hunts these days.

        • CodyCoyote says:

          Answer: they need the radio collars to find the wolf at all.

          Take away the beacon , the bait, and the binoculars , and the Great White Hunter reverts to his rightful place on the food chain…8th down from the top

          • Leslie says:

            RMEF might keep funding until they get a study with the answers they want.

            • Robert R says:

              Leslie is this not true with any organization with an agenda that suits their needs to satisfy what they believe is right.

    • Immer Treue says:

      Couple of what ifs.

      What if this further supports studies such as Middleton’s. Will it provide incentive for Montana to back off a bit on its wolf hunting?

      What if this shows wolves are indeed impacting elk, will the collared wolves serve as Judas wolves?

  47. aves says:

    The latest blunder in Mexican wolf recovery, almost releasing a pair within the territory of another pack:,0,917541.story

    • Jeff N. says:


      That story leaves out a few important pieces of info.

      1st – the pair of wolves that were in the pen “Coronado Pair” were unsuccessful in raising their pups. The female initially did give birth to pups but they did no survive.

      2nd – the “Rim Pack” (the “pack” that visited the wolves in the enclosure) really wasn’t a pack, it was a pair. The old alpha female had been captured recently because she hadn’t produced pups in the past few years. As mentioned, she was captured due to her old age/lack of pup production and also because of the importance of her genetics. I believe the recovery team plans on harvesting her eggs because of her genetic make up.

      Her capture supposedly left the male by himself and theoretically opened up the territory. However, he showed up at the pen with a new mate, and they displayed aggressive behavior towards the “Coronado” pair in the enclosure.

      Based on the the weekly flight tracking information, this new “Rim” female may be denning and if the new “Coronado” pair had been released, the aggressive “Rim” pair would have most likely blown them out of the area, probably resulting in their separation.

      I believe the recovery team may have plans for a release of the “Coronado” sometime down the road.

      And yes, you are correct. The recovery effort for the Lobo has produced many blunders, but I think this decision is sound, based the circumstances.

      Releasing captive pairs requires a lot of babysitting, and releasing them in a territory that, again, is occupied is not a smart move.

  48. aves says:

    Grassland birds are declining faster than any other group of North American birds primarily due to habitat loss. Good, or potentially good, habitat remains on private farmland. One way to help these birds is to have farmers delay their harvest until after nesting season is over. This costs farmers money so conservationists need to pay farmers to help the birds.,0,4866890.story

  49. Louise Kane says:

    Park Service Burns Buffalo National River Wilderness: We’ve reported recently on how the Forest Service (FS) has been proposing extensive manipulation of wilderness around the country via prescribed fire and fuels reduction. The Park Service recently got in on the act with a 10,000-acre prescribed burn in the Buffalo National River Wilderness in Arkansas. According to a Newton County Times article, “The burn accomplished the reduction of hazardous fuel loads, promoted the restoration of post oak savannas and cedar glade areas, improved conditions for stands of native grasses and improved that habitat for all animals.” However, the ecological consequences will likely be far different from those caused by natural lightning fires. Even if manager-ignited fire may bring some perceived ecological or species-specific benefits, human-ignited fire in Wilderness is a significant manipulation of the area, which should be allowed to evolve on its own accord, as set forth under the Wilderness Act.

    • Read the article by clicking here.

  50. Louise Kane says:

    The Sportsman Heritage Act rammed down our throats again
    second paragraph

    Congressman Benishek, Homeland Security Again Take Aim at Wilderness Act: The Senate Judiciary Committee has finished marking up the new immigration reform bill, S. 744, and sent the bill to the floor of the U.S. Senate. Officially called the “Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act,” the bill contains extensive problematic provisions and more than $1 billion to build more border walls and increase border security measures along the U.S. border with Mexico, some of which will occur in Wilderness along the border with Mexico. The bill also expands the authority of the Secretary of Homeland Security to waive any laws that he or she so chooses. Senator Leahy added an amendment limiting Homeland Security’s ability to build fences along the Northern border. Wilderness Watch is urging Senators to remove the Secretary of Homeland Security’s authority to waive laws, like the Wilderness Act, to build fences, barriers, towers, roads, and other infrastructure along the borders.

    In the House, Rep. Daniel Benishek (R-MI) has reintroduced a new version of his disastrous 2012 Sportsmen’s Heritage Act. This bill passed the full House of Representatives last year, and would have eviscerated the 1964 Wilderness Act and protections for every Wilderness in the nation. This year’s version, H.R. 1825, called the “Recreational Fishing and Hunting Heritage and Opportunities Act,” has slightly narrowed its damage from last year, but would still gut protections for the entire National Wilderness Preservation System and every Wilderness in the U.S. The House Natural Resources Committee passed this bill on June 12 by a 28-15 vote.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      The bill also expands the authority of the Secretary of Homeland Security to waive any laws that he or she so chooses.

      Waiving laws at a leader’s discretion is starting to become a trend. Bye-bye, Democracy!

    • jon says:

      This bill must be killed. “sportsmen heritage”, gimme a break.

  51. Louise Kane says:

    the link to the bills
    as if there are not enough places to kill and harass wildlife. I’m so tired of the BS of promoting killing as a cultural heritage/right.

    stay tuned for more ad to fight this indecent proposed bill

    • Ralph Maughan says:

      The Republican base hates Latinos so much I think this will die. Some Republicans who thought they would vote for the bill if it had enough hideous provisions are now having second thoughts because they fear they will lose their party’s primary election.

      At least that is what a lot of news commentary is saying today.

      • Louise Kane says:

        I hope you are right Ralph
        I was surprised a new version had been introduced, I watch carefully and had also not heard much from the NGO’s
        I fear one day it will just slip in unnoticed while other fires are being stomped out

      • jon says:

        I follow politics Ralph as I believe you do as well. If the GOP doesn’t pass immigrant reform, they are done. They will never win the white house again. The demographics of this country are changing and will continue to change as years go by. The republicans base mainly consists of older white people. The republicans in my opinion seem to be very bigoted and hostile towards immigrants and minorities.

        • SaveBears says:

          “They will never win the White House again” Quite a bold statement Jon, and completely speculation based on what you believe. I suspect we have a good chance of having a Republican President again in the 2016 Election.

          By the way, if they are here illegally or undocumented, then they are not immigrants, they are criminals.

          • Louise Kane says:

            until Citizen’s United is repealed the highest bidder wins
            remember the days of election reform
            that was the right track
            we are so far off
            I’d love to see all election contributions whether from individuals or corps capped at some amount that is equal for all parties. Then it would be a fair race. If you knew how much you had to spend you actually have to use strategic planning and get back to promoting concepts and ideals instead of smear campaigns. Perhaps then politicans could concentrate on work instead of a never ending stream of fundraising. For example, All presidential campaigns are allowed 20 million for advertising, travel, staff etc. Then each party does what it sees fit to earn the money and spend it wisely. it doesn’t matter where the money comes from but thats all they can take in. They would be forced to create a budget and stick with it and the big corporations would have much less clout

          • WM says:

            It would be pure speculation on which party controls the White House in 2016. The R’s will likely still have the House and maybe by a larger margin, and who knows what will happen to the Senate.

            But, it seems almost a certainty the uber-rich will be richer and more politicaly powerful with large corporations taking even more seats up front on setting the course of this nation, while concentrating even more power in the few; the middle class will be smaller, baby boomers a whole bunch grayer and demanding more of failed health care system, and the country will be more brown (some the offspring of illegals) with a larger and more marginal under-class demanding even more from the middle class in the way of taxes (which the uber-rich will sidestep). And, China will own more American businesses and have greater investment here, and as a result seeking more political clout. See sentence first sentence of this paragraph.

            • WM says:

              …and Congressional types will be whores to Wall St., regardless of which major party they shill for (products of a dysfunctional, heavily entrenched and virtually unseatable two-party system).

            • Mareks Vilkins says:


              your second paragraph 90% consists of one sentence – nice style 😉

              • WM says:

                Indeed, Mareks. Pretty sloppy form. But then do disagree with the post content, as viewed from a Latvian perspective?

            • Mareks Vilkins says:

              if you mean my take on US tectonic shifts (economics,politics, demography since 1970s) – then yes

              but from Latvia’s perspective it’s not the worst ‘alternative’ – when 1/5 of labor has emigrated to UK,Ireland,Scandinavia,Germany or Netherlands in the last 10 years … so one could say that there’s less of pressure on environment

              • Mareks Vilkins says:

                I mean, how people in Latvia are forced to respond under similar / or worse financial pressures from the same policies

  52. aves says:

    Why Colorado’s fires, even with global warming, need not be the “new normal”:

  53. Ida Lupine says:

    We’ve grown our vulnerability at a pace far exceeding whatever forces climate change is exerting on the same scenarios.

    My feelings exactly. Good article.

  54. Louise Kane says:

    I hijacked some space instead of putting a link in. I think this is one of the most easily digestible and sadly accurate depictions of wolf policy I’ve read.

    National Geographic contributor/writer

    The federal government’s proposed delisting of the wild wolf is an environmental regression, not only for the wolves, but also for next generations–who in the future may only see a CGI wolf in films, not loping wild through our forests. News of the federal abandonment of wolf protection is a haunting reminder of the devastating war against the wolves waged in earlier centuries. Before federal protection, wolves were hunted to extinction: by airplanes in Alaska, poisoned, trapped, and shot on sight throughout the West. As a New York Times op-ed asks, “Have we brought back wolves for the sole purpose of hunting them down?” Here’s a reminder of the unsustainable, anti-wolf culture that we’ll revert to, if we allow this proposed delisting to stand.

    In 1993, I was in the Far North, reporting on the Alaska Wolf Summit and the aerial shooting of radio-collared wolves. One of the wildlife managers advised me, “Take off your press badge.” Another advised, “Come see how we really manage endangered species up here–in the what’s left of the Wild West.”

    In a Last Frontier hotel bar adorned with deer and elk trophies, I silently observed a small but very powerful group of Alaska’s Board of Game and U.S. Fish and Wildlife officials swaping hunting stories and ridiculing the Summit protesters for their signs: “Don’t Kill Wolves on our Public Lands!” and “Respect the Wolf!”

    Without my press badge in that Fairbanks bar, I was, invisible–after all, only a woman. The real world of federal and stage wildlife management is dominated by men with deep ties to hunting, ranching, and agribusiness. In many Western States, hunting licenses fund most of the wildlife programs–a conflict of interest so obvious, but rarely reported. Some federal and state wildlife managers only grudgingly admit scientists to their inner circles because of the Endangered Species Act. Their fervor that night was reserved for talk of “wolf harvests” and “caribou calf crops,” of “lethal management,” and “sustainable yield” to assure higher populations of big game for hunters.

    I was dismayed at the wildlife managers’ sense of entitlement, authority, and control over the natural world and all other animals. In the smoky haze of that Fairbanks bar, it was like watching wildlife managers play poker with the fates of other species. I forced myself to remain quiet, staring up at a gigantic moose head trophy.

    It didn’t seem to matter to these wildlife cronies at the Wolf Summit that statistics didn’t support their politics and 80 percent of Alaskans identified as “non-consumptive wildlife supporters.” The wildlife managers were the “alpha” males driving all wolf management policy. After the Wolf Summit, the state of Alaska declared a “land-and-shoot aerial hunting” of wolves that led to widespread slaughter of wolves from planes.

    In 1993, only 10 percent of the U.S. population were hunters. In 2013, the USFW reports that only 6 percent of Americans are hunters. “Hunters are 89 percent male and 94 percent white,” the report notes. Fishing and bird-watching are more popular than hunting. So why are our wildlife policies still so skewed in their support of hunting agendas?

    Much–and little–has changed for the wild wolf since that 1993 Wolf Summit. In 1995, wolves were granted federal protection and wolf packs successfully reintroduced in Yellowstone and throughout the West. Wildly popular, the wolf-reintroduction programs in Yellowstone and the Northern Rockies still provide huge tourism income. Wolf biologist, Cristina Eisenberg, author of The Wolf’s Tooth, notes that since wolf reintroduction in Yellowstone, scientists have documented “rapid recovery of over-browsed aspen, willows and cottonwoods, stream bank stabilization in eroded streams, and a dramatic increase in biodiversity of songbirds.”

    Welcoming wolves back to their rightful habitats has restored our public lands. It has also restored something in our national psyche: a sense of balance and humanity. We can generously share with these other “keystone predators” who nourish the entire ecosystem.

    The delisting of wild wolves is premature and scientifically unsound. For years, Republicans have tried to gut the Endangered Species Act; but why is the Obama administration supporting such unenlightened wildlife policies of the past? Do Democrats need Western State senators so desperately, that they’ll sacrifice environmental ethics–and the majority of Americans who support wolf protection?

    “This is politics versus professional wildlife management,” former Director of the USFW, Jamie Rappaport Clark says. “The service is saying, ‘We’re done. Game over. Whatever happens to wolves in the U.S. is a state thing. They are declaring victory long before science would tell them to do so.”

    One of the wildlife managers at the Alaska Wolf Summit told a story that still haunts me these ten years later. “My Grandaddy was a trapper,” the man said proudly. Once his Grandaddy found a fierce wolf with his paw clamped shut in the metal teeth of a trap. “‘That wolf just stood there looking at me,’ my granddaddy said. ‘He just kept staring at me and wagging his doggone tail. That wolf wagged his tail like that–until I shot him.'”

    The return of wolf management to Western states still trapped in 19th-century frontier mentality is irresponsible and short-sighted. We are in the 21st century. The forests are not our farms. Wildlife is not a “crop” to be “harvested.” Wolves are top predators who restore, balance, and protect our wild lands. They are our future allies, not our foes.

    It’s time for the majority of Americans to tell hunters and ranchers that it is not the Last Frontier for the wolves. It’s time the feds and states listen to the majority of this country who support wolf protection–because wolves are what is most Wild about our West.

    Over one thousand wolves have been killed in the wolf-hunting seasons in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. As one of the more visionary wildlife managers told me when wolves, “Forget wolf control. How about a little self-control? The wolf is the real hunter. We can learn from wolves, if we can just keep from shooting them.”

    Public comment on this delisting:

    Natural Resources Defense Council

    Wolf Watcher: Take Action

    Brenda Peterson is a National Geographic author who has covered wolf reintroduction for The Seattle Times and in her memoir, Build Me an Ark: A Life with Animals. Her new book is Seal Pup Rescue and her new novel is The Drowning World.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      Fantastic article.

      • Ralph Maughan says:

        I agree. Great article.

        Those who have a broader appreciation of wildlife than the one thing they might light to do in field and forest need to not only get mad, but broaden their search for allies. That means some new thinking to get new friends.

        The Teddy Roosevelt model of wildlife and public land worked pretty well for 75 or more years, but economic and cultural changes are making it obsolete with a lot of unpleasant side effects. I’m hardly the first to say it here, but it bears repeating.

    • Immer Treue says:


      Very good +1

    • SAP says:

      Don’t “digest” too much of it . . .

      Ms. Peterson is incorrect when she states that “In 1995, wolves were granted federal protection and wolf packs successfully reintroduced in Yellowstone and throughout the West.”

      Wolves have been protected under the ESA since 1973. The reintroduction program was finally implemented in 1995. Wolves were translocated to YNP and Central Idaho, not “throughout the West.” Seems like a simple enough fact to keep straight.

      I also don’t like the vague reference to “huge tourism income.” We’ve discussed that here before — wolf watching does provide revenue to a few towns near Lamar Valley. Under Montana’s tax structure, that revenue mostly stays right there (we have no state sales tax).

      Ms. Peterson should have linked directly to Duffield’s work,
      which indicates about $35 million in WY-ID-MT “attributable to wolves” annually. Not bad. Compare that to the size of the ag economy just in Montana at $2 billion — the three-state total wolf tourism impact is less than two percent of the size of agriculture.

      The overall tourism economy in Montana is $1.8 billion.

      [side note: I expect that the size of the “wolf economy” is actually quite a bit larger than $35 million. Duffield did not measure the economic activity of either pro-wolf or anti-wolf advocacy in these states, which is not trivial (not counting six figure consulting contracts by UT legislature to keep wolves out of the Beehive State!). Nor did Duffield include dollars spent on lethal control, wolf research, or litigation . . . none of which would be happening without wolves.]

      I won’t wade into a fruitless debate on whether or how wolves change the landscape, other than to note Arthur Middleton’s recent assertions:

      ‘If wolves’ presence doesn’t shift elk to new territory or prevent them from getting pregnant, then they also may not be the cause of the increase in willows and aspen in the Yellowstone area, as previously believed, he said.

      “Even if wolves play a role it’s likely considerably smaller than we thought,” Middleton said.’

      OK, why bring all this up? Because the wolf story is complicated and constantly unfolding, and I’m tired of the pro- and anti-wolf ends of the spectrum arguing from dramatically oversimplified “cartoon” versions of this complex reality.

      I get it that we may be seeking very different things in this situation. Some folks are just seeking arguments that support their position and validate their world view.

      Myself, I strongly question whether it genuinely serves wolves to keep oversimplifying the situation and stoking the fires of dogma.

      • Mareks Vilkins says:

        about $35 million in WY-ID-MT “attributable to wolves” annually. Not bad. Compare that to the size of the ag economy just in Montana at $2 billion — the three-state total wolf tourism impact is less than two percent of the size of agriculture.


        but hey – livestock depredation from wolves doesn’t make up as much as 0.0..% of MT ag economy

        • CodyCoyote says:

          SAP—Here in Wyoming, Agriculture is listed as the third largest sector of the economy in gross revenue after Energy and Minerals and Tourism . But Ag workers are always in the lowest personal income brackets, with Ag contributing less than 2 percent of the state payroll. The Ag service sector is equally low income for those secondary employees and reps coming at it from Retail . Finally , Ag ends up being a drain on the overall tax base when you factor in the subsidies , cheap or zero interest loan programs , and lost public service income from the many Ag tax breaks. In Wyoming, 6 percent of the resident population works directly in Agriculture but they contribute only 2.5 percent of the gross state personal income. While Ag generates a lot of spending, its yield for net income to the purveyor remains historically miniscule. Witness the sheepherder who makes a whopping $ 600 / month .

          Comparing the wolfwatcher economic model to the agriculture economic model is Animals and Oranges. Since you brought it up as such , it deserves an equally disparate response.

          Having said that , Duffield’s UM wolfwatch study is dated. It needs to be updated. I suspect a revised study would likely show an increase in wolfwatching economic input and a decrease in outfitted hunting and general hunting dollars. It is also difficult to parse out the wolfwatching from the more general tourism niche…my local Cody WY tour operators added Wolf Sighting and Grizzly Bear Sighting Opportunity to their longstanding tour packages , but they almost all note that wildlife are now the major bait for booking tour clients thus and so. Ditto the so-called ” Wild Horses” that roam east of my town . Tours to visit them were nonexistent 15 years ago. Today there are three large tour outlets devoted solely to wild horse ranges , or bundled with other wildlife tours.

          One thing I do know. Wolves have caused nowhere near the negative economic impact that many ( perhaps yourself ) would like to attribute to them.

          • SAP says:

            Cody – no, not “perhaps myself.” Read the last three paragraphs of my above post. I have worked for years on wolf conservation, focusing heavily best practices for proactively managing risk of livestock conflicts. I won’t belabor that point, other than to say that I found out early on that this is a cultural conflict. We have some promising technical solutions, but the cultural conflict stops from us from getting past the front gate. My objection to Brenda Peterson’s writing is that she continues to paint things as very black and white — wolves are so amazingly good, but these bad bad people are messing everything up.

            I’m not trying to argue that someone moving irrigation pipe or living in a sheep wagon has a really bright future, just pointing out that $35 million may sound like a lot, but is pretty small potatoes in context. Yes, the downside of wolves is quite small in context, too. Hysteria on the anti-wolf side does not justify bending the rules of reason and logic on the pro-wolf side.

      • Immer Treue says:


        I +1’d above comment. You get a +2 for taking a more critical look, and once again bring to everyone’s attention that the answer to this complex situation is loosely anchored somewhere in the middle of both extremes.

        That said, unlike 100 years ago, wolves now have folks willing to go to bat for them, and it is more than obvious that it will take time to properly discredit the myths of old that continually haunt wolves, as well as tempering the wolves can do no wrong mantra of the uninformed.

      • WM says:


        Thanks for taking the time to deconstruct the Brenda Peterson propaganda piece. I had neither the time nor energy to point out some of the factual errors, and gross misinterpretations of federal law. She totally misses the role of states and the very base population of wolves which still exist today (reduced little it would seem even after take-off of 1,000) and are expanding range in the NRM, even to Ms. Peterson’s home state of WA. Of course, there and OR they will be protected under state law; they still get that in most of the NRM, too, even though some don’t like the numbers.

        Let’s do add to the list of inaccuracies the idea that there is not really a federal abandonment of ESA protections, since even after delisting (if it indeed comes to pass after the litigation train has come to the end of the track), there will be monitoring for 5 years after delisting, and ALWAYS the opportunity to relist. This sort of bullshit tires me out.

        Then there is final sentence or two where she wants you to buy her latest books. That is what these pieces are really about – advertisement for commercial gain and to hell with the facts or objectivity about an issue.

        So, where Louise and others give praise to this story, I say look a little deeper for facts and spin.

        • Ida Lupine says:

          1. …they still get that in most of the NRM, too, even though some don’t like the numbers.

          Well, that’s the thing. Are the numbers too low for genetic diversity?

          2. …and ALWAYS the opportunity to relist.

          How long would that take, if the numbers become too low? Will it be held up in litigation from those who don’t want them relisted? I guess hunting seasons could be stopped, but you’ll always have the SSS crowd.

          The anti side is still going to have to make some kind of offer of good faith, such as a buffer zone around the park, or not hunting collared wolves.

          Then I think both sides might be able to move on. But a continuing hunting free-for-all with an anything goes mentality is wrong. I’d still like to know why wolves bring this ugly side out in humankind and not other predators where there is more real evidence of predation and human attacks. That Yakima article was what I would call a classic propaganda piece. Experts saw cougar tracks at the scene, but Joe Schmoe’s dogs didn’t think it was a cougar. 🙁

          • Ida Lupine says:

            Buffer zones around the park(s) would be the civilized thing to do.

          • Louise Kane says:

            Ida it is extremely bizarre as you point out that the idea of wolves bring out such ugly, hateful, disgusting indecent behaviour. They behave and look like the world’s most amazing german shepherds, akitas or siberian huskies. How people can be so cruel to an animal that so closely resembles a dog is surreal to me, painful even. And what they do to coyotes may even be more unspeakable. I’ve heard all the arguments but nothing comes close to helping me to understand such base and reprehensible treatment of these animals. I believe that there is something terribly wrong with a person who can inflict pain on an animal purposefully, without reason, without mercy and so disrespectfully. The most frustrating and disappointing aspect is that inflicting terrible agony on wildlife is usually legal and those who fight to change the antiquated dismal laws that pass for “management” are labeled as extremists.

        • Mareks Vilkins says:

          This sort of bullshit tires me out.


          judging by your body’s reaction you could safely conclude that you are on the other line of the wolf’s front – and consequently to adopt Save Bears’ policy – to ignore misinformed opponents 😉

        • Louise Kane says:

          “She totally misses the role of states and the very base population of wolves which still exist today (reduced little it would seem even after take-off of 1,000) and are expanding range in the NRM, even to Ms. Peterson’s home state of WA.”

          wm I don’t think she totally misses the states’ role. Like many, Ms. Petersen recognizes the extreme measures used by the states to slaughter wolves. How many people, beside here, do you think give a damn about the nit picking differences that are used here to obscure some of the broad strokes. And yes wolf recovery is complicated but the point of this piece is to illustrate the shortcomings in wolf management. Just because you don’t agree with the take does not automatically qualify the piece as propaganda. While we bicker endlessly over whether wolves are having a positive or negative impact or none at all, or how many individuals are required to maintain genetic diversity, people like Ms. Petersen are writing with skill and clarity to ensure that the general population understands the terrible consequences for wolves, of a national delisting.

          • WM says:


            I think we could agree Peterson is writing with skill. However, I know we would disagree that she is writing with “clarity” or accurate facts.

      • Louise Kane says:

        SAP I can’t take credit for finding these new publications, but as the party that sent them commented, they are some new and relevant information on trophic cascades. Since you brought it up in your post critiquing the Peterson piece.

        “FYI: A couple of new and very relevant publications…
        Scholar Alert: [ wolves trophic cascade ]

        Recolonizing wolves trigger a trophic cascade in Wisconsin (USA)
        R Callan, NP Nibbelink, TP Rooney, JE Wiedenhoeft… – Journal of Ecology, 2013
        To assess the potential for such a top-down trophic cascade response, we developed a spatially
        and temporally explicit model of wolf territory occupancy based on three decades of wolf monitoring
        data. Using a nested multiscale vegetation survey protocol, we compared the understorey …

        Landscape of fear in Europe: wolves affect spatial patterns of ungulate browsing in Białowieża Primeval Forest, Poland
        DPJ Kuijper, C de Kleine, M Churski, P van Hooft… – Ecography, 2013
        … Knowledge from European systems, in contrast to North American systems, on how this might
        lead to cascading effects on lower trophic levels is virtually absent. We studied whether wolves
        Canis lupus via density-mediated and behaviorally-mediated effects on their ungulate …

        License to kill: reforming federal wildlife control to restore biodiversity and ecosystem function
        BJ Bergstrom, LC Arias, AD Davidson, AW Ferguson… – Conservation Letters, 2013
        … economic correlates on the sheep industry. Cons Biol 20, 751-761. Berger, KM, Gese,
        EM, Berger, J. (2008) Indirect effects and traditional trophic cascades: a test involving
        wolves, coyotes, and pronghorn. Ecology 89, 818-828. …

        Trait composition, spatial relationships, trophic interactions
        K BIRKHOFER, MH ENTLING, Y LUBIN – Spider Research in the 21st Century: …, 2013
        … Management effects on soil-living prey may therefore cascade up to affect predator populations …
        For example, body condition of wolf spiders increased with the size of cereal fields … Spiders on
        fruit trees provide an example where indirect trophic effects of habitat isolation may have …”

        Thank you for sending these

        • SAP says:

          Thanks Louise – should be interesting reading. Of course, you see the distinction between “wolves may have these effects” versus “we are obligated to ensure that wolves have these effects.”

          To me, there’s a lot of interesting ground to be covered in that is/ought interface. I’ve got work to do, and it seems like one can’t raise these questions without being labeled an anti-wolf maniac, so I’ll leave it there for now.

          That last reference — Birkhofer et al 2013 — must be an artifact of the search terms? Looks like it deals with wolf spiders, not wolves.

          • Immer Treue says:

            I believe wolf spiders have been used as a study specimen quite often in regard to predator prey relationships / total body mass of spiders vs total body mass of prey… Yea though mammals they are not.

            Got some pretty big wolf spiders up here. Takes a while to get used to them
            Each year.

        • JB says:

          There is a LOT conflicting evidence coming out about trophic cascades at the moment. A few weeks ago I reported that I would speak with one of the authors at a conference this week. Unfortunately, his research kept him from the conference. But I did have the chance to speak with 2 other carnivore ecologists who were familiar with the research (one of them works for USDA’s WS, the other for a private research institute). Both agreed that large carnivore induced trophic cascades were likely to be dampened by the presence of humans for a wide variety of reasons (e.g., human-caused mortality of apex predators, displacement of these animals during the daytime, modification of landscapes, etc.). Some (wolf advocates) will see this as a reason not to kill wolves (and so gain the ‘benefits’ of trophic cascades); others (hunters) will see this as a positive development, as the principal cause of trophic cascades is the reduction in herbivory brought about by a reduction in ungulates. Both scientists agree that we have no idea really under what conditions trophic cascades should come about; hell, the scientific community still cannot agree on whether, when and the extent to which wolves are capable of reducing ungulate populations.

          Now everyone can go back to yelling at each other.

          • Mareks Vilkins says:

            hell, the scientific community still cannot agree on whether, when and the extent to which wolves are capable of reducing ungulate populations.



            heck, wolves certainly can’t reduce livestock herds/populations

            and to my taste this song captures it all just nicely (both wolf harvest ‘bag’ and livestock/game ‘casualties’ hysteria)

            AC/DC – Back In Black

            as 400 hunters in one operation can’t stop wolves from spreading in Latvia so I hope NRM hunters will not stop wolves spreading throughout Lower 48


            Back in black
            I hit the sack
            I’ve been too long I’m glad to be back
            Yes I’m, let loose
            From the noose
            That’s kept me hanging about
            I keep looking at the sky
            ‘Cause it’s gettin’ me high
            Forget the hearse ’cause I’ll never die
            I got nine lives
            Cats eyes
            Usin’ every one of them and running wild
            ‘Cause I’m back
            Yes, I’m back
            Well, I’m back
            Yes, I’m back
            Well, I’m back, back
            (Well) I’m back in black
            Yes, I’m back in black
            Back in the back
            Of a Cadillac
            Number one with a bullet, I’m a power pack
            Yes, I’m in a bang
            With a gang
            They’ve got to catch me if they want me to hang
            Cause I’m back on the track
            And I’m beating the flack
            Nobody’s gonna get me on another rap

            So look at me now
            I’m just makin’ my play
            Don’t try to push your luck, just get out of my way
            ‘Cause I’m back
            Yes, I’m back
            Well, I’m back

          • Louise Kane says:

            JB you brought up an interesting point when you said that researchers are agreeing that the presence of humans may be dampening large carnivore induced trophic cascades. I had never thought much about it but I remember hearing Jon Way give a presentation and that he said coyotes have adjusted their normal life behaviors to become nocturnal creatures to avoid humans.

            I would like to see more research on how hunting impacts large carnivores

            and thank you

            • Mareks Vilkins says:

              I remember hearing Jon Way give a presentation and that he said coyotes have adjusted their normal life behaviors to become nocturnal creatures to avoid humans.


              that one reminds of:

              ” Wild boars can attain 30 or more years of age, if you let them. The females form tight social groups with a leading matriarch and offspring. The males have to leave the groups in adolescence, then form batchelor gangs and eventually become solitary. The solitary males are the ones who have the primary access to females for mating. The male wild boar develops big tusks, a heavily protected neck and generally a huge size. The social situation is very similar to the one of elephants in Africa. Normally, no male will be able to father offspring before he is 10 or even 15 years old. In turn, the matriarchs are old and wise females, who know their territory well and who have the experience to safeguard their group through climatic problems, droughts, long winters or even difficult births. This is, in short, the social structure, or culture if you want, of wild boars.

              The influence of hunting is as follows. Firstly, a large percentage of members of the wild boar society is killed every year. This is compensated by feeding throughout the year and especially during winter. Often, primary targets for trophy hunters are the lonely males, and if not available than the older and bigger females. The only protected ones are the females with young.

              As a consequence no wild boar is older than 6 years anymore! Most are between one and two years old! That means the structure of the society is totally destroyed. What remains is a group of youngsters, disoriented and unable to survive independently so that they become totally dependent on feeding by humans. The have not been given the chance to learn anything from their elders, because they are dead. And they have not the chance to get enough experience to forward to next generation, because they will likely die before they have matured. On average a wild boar in central Europe lives only about 2 years. And furthermore, they have become nocturnal animals. Being originally daytime active, they had to switch to the night to escape the attention of human hunters.

              The population also feels the reproduction pressure put upon them by the high death toll due to hunting. Therefore the age of sexual maturation has decreased to almost one year of age in some cases. And the reproduction rate is much higher than is usual without hunting.

              What we are left with is a bunch of immature youngsters, males and females of one to two years producing vast numbers of offspring, being totally unguided and incapable of independent survival. There is no social structure anymore. And in sheer numbers, the wild boar population is much larger than it would be were they undisturbed by hunters. Every conservationist appears happy: large number = healthy population. But the truth of the matter is totally different.

              This analysis applies to many different animal species, which are hunted by humans, including foxes and deer for example.”

              • Ida Lupine says:

                I’m not surprised. They say that something similar has happened to elephant social structure as well, with their young males not being taught by older male elephants because they are dead. Humans do not value the social structure of animals.

                I fear this has happened with wolves also, because we keep hearing of a change with wolf breeding, the dominant male and female being a thing of the past or never true at all, we’re told. What about all the research? It may be something we have created, changes in the breeding patterns of animals. I’m sure we’ll find a way to spin the facts to our favor, or exploit it.

    • Immer Treue says:

      Well, we’ve made it up to ‘massive’ in the headlines. Big head, long legs and big paws,duh, probably one of those 250 lb Yukon eating machines.

      • Ida Lupine says:

        🙂 I can’t believe that the USFWS is validating the Canadian wolves theory – the wolves are not native to the area! C. lupus roswell or C. lupus bridges.

        • Robert R says:

          Ida I will always have doubts?
          Where is the proof without a doubt (DNA)documentation?

          • Ida Lupine says:

            I’m only teasing. 😉

          • JB says:

            Good lord, Robert. Do you really think people that would require DNA documentation would be appeased by it? Hell no! They don’t trust ‘the gov’ment’…period. They would simply say that the documentation, tests, etc. were faked. A wolf is a wolf is a wolf. Get over it.

            P.S. Bob Wayne’s lab actually has run DNA analysis to show the lineage of wolves in the NRMs; and the states have reported the sizes of all wolves harvested. Neither has stopped the myth of the great Canadian wolf.

    • Immer Treue says:

      So, wolf runs out on road, and motorcyclist speeds up to avoid a collision. Story is nothing more than wildlife encounter until:

      “I stopped the bike, pulled my gloves off, took my camera out, did a u-turn and came back, and that’s when I managed to get the pictures. When [the wolf] heard me coming, it jumped back over a [roadside] barrier and it started running. I sped up a little bit, it got in nice and close and I was driving with my right hand and clicking pictures with my left. When I first came back around, it came in really close; probably a bit too close.”

      And now you’ve heard the rest of the story.

    • Mike says:


  55. Mark L says:

    Sounds like the definition of reckless driving to me. Of course, he wasn’t ‘texting’ while driving…..

  56. jon says:

    2 of the speakers are wolf haters and I don’t know about the third one. You can bet this symposium will contain a lot of lies and misinformation about wolves.

    • Rancher Bob says:

      Like there’s no lie’s or misinformation here.

      • Immer Treue says:

        Rancher Bob,

        Should have known better than proceed beyond the “Canadian Wolves” but after reading your comment proceeded, and sprayed Bushmills across the computer screen when I actually went on to read the names of the speakers.

        • JEFF E says:

          ““Fish and Wildlife doesn’t want to manage the land or the wildlife,” said Beers. “Once they started hiring women and minorities, the service went from managing the land and wildlife to saving all the animals and habitats.”

          This is a direct quote from this disgusting little man. The only thing he does is hit the chicken dinner circuit and collect speaking fees from the rubes.

          • Immer Treue says:


          • Ralph Maughan says:

            What little cow pie did this grub crawl out of?

          • Mike says:

            He’s your kind of people, isn’t he?

          • cobackcountry says:

            Well he can assess the situation with great accuracy, while he drags his wife back to the cave by her hair and p and pounds his chest. He most certainly is an expert, or he wouldn’t have the biggest club in the cave!

            Ha, I’d be amused were it not for people listening to such numb skulls.

          • Immer Treue says:

            Beers must have had a problem with this

            Mollie Beattie, the first woman to head the US Fish & Wildlife Service said, “What a country chooses to save is what a country chooses to say about itself”. Though humans have little to fear from wolves, the biggest, and perhaps only, threat to wolf recovery comes from humans. Some have said that all wolves need to survive are a sustainable prey base and for people not to shoot them.

        • Rancher Bob says:

          You should know better than drink and read, one thing about wolves, if only all the BS from both sides could make the plants grow. Got to keep your sense of humor.

          • jon says:

            RB, I don’t deny that there may be some misinformation about wolves coming from my side, but most of the BS, lies, and misinformation about wolves comes from your side, the anti-wolf side.

            • Rancher Bob says:

              I like to hunt and I really enjoy the challenge on wolf hunting. For me to hunt wolves there must be wolves, so how can I be anti wolf. Wolves are a 12 month sport for me 6 months of watching and 6 months of hunting. Think of all I’ve gained by having wolves around, when the world gives you lemons make lemonade. When you have wolves enjoy them then, make something out of them.

              • jon says:

                You called wolves sob’s a few days ago. There is no need to hide your true feelings about wolves rb. It’s not hard to spot a wolf hater on the internet rb.

              • jon says:

                rb, people who enjoy killing wolves are not pro-wolf, they are anti-wolf.

              • Rancher Bob says:

                Funny thing about canines you can call them whatever you want it’s all about how you do the calling, that matters. The words don’t matter it’s all about presentation.
                As for you, well anyone who enjoys the “Hate” word as much as you has issues, what kind I could only guess.
                I enjoy life to much to worry about hating anything, I am bothered by people who believe they know so much about wolves because they have a dog.

              • Mark L says:

                Wow, four I’s and two me’s in a single paragraph. It’s all about you, isn’t it?

              • Rancher Bob says:

                There’s so much you don’t understand, I said I enjoy the challenge of hunting wolves. Which is much different than I enjoy killing wolves. But I’m wasting my time now, carry on, you’ll never understand the difference.

              • Immer Treue says:

                Mark L,
                It is his experience (the operative word) and no one else’s. Very few who post here experience wolves, at all.

                The word hate is thrown around too much. The cyber exchanges I have had with Rancher Bob would lead me to believe he is a rancher who has learned to adapt to the presence of wolves, yet will take the necessary means to protect his stock. For many of us, that’s a fair deal and something for which we would hope.

                There are, no doubt, haters out there, but, me thinks RB is not among them.

              • jon says:

                I disagree immer. RB referred to wolves as sob’s a few days ago.

              • Immer Treue says:


                If the wolves are male, then he is correct. SOB is mild compared to what’s out there.

              • Louise Kane says:

                RB I guess you could say with so many people who feel like you, wolves are being enjoyed/loved to death

                how does one watch or see a pack of wolves and then enjoy a random killing of a father, a pup, or another member?
                seems pretty damn callous
                you may not hate them but I cannot reconcile enjoying a living being while planning to kill it later on. Especially such inquisitive, beautiful animals. And again I need to be reminded of the “challenge” of taking a rifle or cross bow and using it against a living being.

              • Rancher Bob says:

                First you would have to understand life in the outdoors, it’s wild and damn callous. It’s about life, death and reproducing. Figure 3000 predators killing 18 animals a year per predator, everyday more than 147 animals die a death which you have never seen the like, that’s a small part of daily life and death.
                You sit in your nice big home, travel the world feeling you have no negative impacts on wildlife. You never consider what has happened for you to live the life you live. What happens on a daily basis to wildlife just so you can live your life. You simply ignore those action and let others do your dirty work. My actions are just more personal.
                Maybe you could give me a list of wild animals that are not inquisitive and beautiful.

              • JEFF E says:

                that is far and above sunny Jon’s expertise.
                At some point in time he will have to vacate his mom’s basement and have to face the real world, at which time, hopefully, go thru the maturation process instead of the daily suppuration that he subjects this blog to presently.

              • JEFF E says:

                First you would have to understand life in the outdoors, it’s wild and damn callous. It’s about life, death and reproducing. Figure 3000 predators killing 18 animals a year per predator,

                (period instead of comma)

                everyday more than 147 animals die a death which you have never seen the like,

                ( and how would you do it if all you had was teeth and claws and had not eaten is a few day to a few weeks and had offspring to feed?)
                ( that is why {choose your religion; creation or evolution]prey species exist), that’s a small part of daily life and death.

              • JEFF E says:

                thank you for the clarification

              • Louise Kane says:

                RB you don’t know a damn thing about me except what I post. I only know the small part of you that blogs here. My comment pertained to killing wolves or other wildlife for fun. Not a one of us lives without having an impact. We may set off a chain of events that has unintended consequences. I try to live my life doing things I know I can live with and that won’t produce undesirable unintended consequences for other beings. I’m not always successful. I know killing for fun is something I could not live with.

            • Ida Lupine says:

              If they were all like RancherBob and SaveBears, and a few others here, I don’t think anybody would worry.

              • JEFF E says:

                what is your point Ida?

              • Ida Lupine says:

                Let me add: life in a city is wild and damn callous also. And is dirty and stinks, except for the privileged few in the upper echelons. I’ll take real wildlife any day.

                What I mean is – these guys are hunters, but not killers and seem to respect life. They speak their mind, take it or leave it. How can you not respect that.

            • JEFF E says:

              damn, did not breakout where I wanted. WHERE is the edit function on this blog, if needed I will pay for it.

              this is not some backwards POS blog with 4 idiot posters from #####.

              Fix it

    • Immer Treue says:

      More Beerisms

      More Wolf Mythology

      And the full story

      Confirmation of high MN moose calf mortality

      What Beers conveniently omits, of the 49 moose calves radio collared, the 22 moose calves that died, as many as 8 died from the stress of capture and collaring.  That gets us down to 14 due to predation.

      So, early in the study, 44.9% of moose calves are dead. As many as 16% die from stress due to the capture process.  And, 29% as a direct result of predation, that is wolves and bears. More studies/observations indicate bears are becoming very efficient at finding ungulate calves/fawns.

      So, for convenience, before all data becomes available, let’s assume a 50:50 split between wolves and bears, would result in 7 of the 49 moose calves killed by wolves, or about 14%.  Adjust this number up a bit as we can assume that of the  capture stress related deaths, wolves may have killed another one or two.  But then again, did the stress due to capture also increase the predation rate?

      I’m not saying that wolves do not kill moose calves, they do.  But Beers jumps to conclusions prior to completion of the study, and the casual reader may then assume, by what Beers presents that wolves killed all or most of the moose calves.

      Again, not making excuses for wolves as they do kill moose calves, but it was a prolonged Winter. The berry (blueberry) crop was poor last year, and for that matter the year before up here in NE MN.  Were the bears able put on the fat supply they needed, as berries are an important part of their hyperphagia? Coming out of hibernation there was not much to eat.  Moose calf anyone?

      Part of this is indeed speculation on my part, but Beers is supposed to, or was supposed to be a person of science, and all he can do is shoot from the hip, blame wolves and slander the MN DNR.  His credibility just took another hit.

      • rork says:

        Press release science with fuzzy numbers is discrediting to your scientific reputation, if you care about such things.

  57. Mareks Vilkins says:

    food for thought – how benefactory billionaires (including magnificent Teddy Roosevelt progenies B&M Gates) could help environment using GMO and plundering Africa

    what is said of Bono applies also to possible US patrons of wildlife:

    “for nearly three decades as a public figure, Bono has been … amplifying elite discourses, advocating ineffective solutions, patronising the poor and kissing the arses of the rich and powerful”. His approach to Africa is “a slick mix of traditional missionary and commercial colonialism, in which the poor world exists as a task for the rich world to complete”.

  58. CodyCoyote says:

    Hmmm…. it appears an outbreak of the gastrointestinal Norovirus was imported into Yellowstone by a bus tour about June 7 , and is now spreading back outward. Over 200 cases reported so far.

    Come to Yellowstone to watch the geysers erupt.
    Stay and watch the people erupt …

  59. Louise Kane says:

    Rottweiler chews off foot to escape trap and get home. What does a coyote, a wolf do with no foot? Traps its time to stop trapping and snaring. No animal deserves to be stuck in a trap or snare.

    • jon says:

      That dog’s owner should file a lawsuit against the trapper. Cases like this show yet again the danger that trappers and their traps pose to people’s dogs.

  60. jon says:

    It’s quite sad how some still call killing wild animals mainly for sport “harvest”. WI wants to cut the wolf population in half. They want to let anti-wildlife houndsmen use their dogs to chase after wolves knowing their dogs will be killed. Let’s hope the HSUS prevails in their lawsuit to stop the wolf hunt in WI.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      They want to let anti-wildlife houndsmen use their dogs to chase after wolves knowing their dogs will be killed.

      And have the taxpayers pay for it! That’s how dumbed-down and (a)pathetic this nation has become.

    • Tim says:

      “They want to let anti-wildlife houndsmen use their dogs to chase after wolves knowing their dogs will be killed.”

      So how come the rest of the world hunts wolves with dogs with no problems, yet you seem to think it can’t happen here in the US. There is more to hunting with hounds than just walking out to the forest and letting your hounds go. If you are gonna talk about a subject maybe try to get your facts strait. As far as anti-wildlife, houndsman were the ones that got the first quotas set on cougar hunting in 70’s to keep the populations from dropping anymore. Houndsman today still advocate for bear, cougar and many other critters all over the country.

      • Mike says:


        No one is buying that. Oh, bravo hound hunters for not killing off the wildlife again! thank you so much oh gracious hunters for setting fire to the town hall, and then grabbing a hose.

      • Louise Kane says:

        remember that saying our parents (at least mine) used to admonish us with when we tried to pull some sneaky teenage maneuver and justify it by saying that everyone else was allowed to.

        It went something like this “would you jump off a bridge just because Janice (in my case my troublemaker friend) did .

        Please hunting wolves with dogs
        terrible policy for wolves and dogs
        barbaric and twisted
        not remotely civilized, fair, humane or justifiable for either species.
        How would you feel being chased by a pack of screeching, out of control, dogs?

        • Tim says:

          Louise, I was not stating that it was right because others do it. What I mean is other people hunt wolves with dogs without getting their dogs killed so it is possible. Weather it is right or wrong is based on personal opinion and I am not going to debate that.

          • Louise Kane says:

            Its wrong period.
            The thought of a pack of crazed baying animals chasing any wildlife makes me feel sick to my stomach. what kind of hell do these people think they have the right to unleash on wild animals. Immer thank you for responding on the other points. This is very upsetting to me. Like you said Vickonsin.

      • Immer Treue says:


        Wolves don’t climb trees. Hunting wolves on prairies/steppes with dogs is one thing, when dogs were accompanied by hors(eback.

        In the woods of Wisconsin, hounders can be a considerable distance as the crow flys from their dogs. I like dogs, but you can bet your ass I be pulling for the wolves in this scenario.

        • Tim says:

          Let me try to explain how it will work in Wisconsin. First it takes at least 2 years to make a finished dog from a pup. No one is going to spend that much time and effort to just throw it away turning out on a an entire pack. The hunters will single out 1 wolf in an area that is accessible to them. They will wait for a good snow fall to do this. Then they will turn the dogs down on the track and attempt to get in front of them. The wolf is going to run circles and zig zag trying to lose the dogs. The hunter will then get where he/she has an open shooting lane and will shoot the wolf when presented a shot. That is how deer and coyotes are both hunted and wolves will be done exactly the same way. The only reason dogs are used is to get the animal to move out of dense vegetation.
          Animals act way different when they know they are being hunted and it doesn’t take them long to figure it out. If Wisconsin has a hound season this year I will be extremely surprised if any dogs are killed by wolves. The people in Norway kill quite a few wolves this way and never lose dogs.

          • Immer Treue says:


            Yes, but the wolves are in packs, and if they don’t run they will fight. Good luck to the dogs.” Vickconsin”.

            Wolf Hunting in Wisconsin: Mainstream Hunters Speak Out


            1. Almost 300 dogs have been killed by wolves since the depredation payment for hounds (up to $2,500 per dog) was instituted when wolves were listed as endangered. Dog deaths average about 15 to 20 a year, and about half a million dollars has been paid for dead & injured dogs. The depredation payment formerly came out of endangered resources funds from the Federal government, but now that wolves are *game* animals, all depredation payments for both cattle and dogs will now come from wolf hunt license sales. The DNR also agreed that any hound killed while actually hunting wolves would not be paid for. Coincidentally, the hounders have set up wolf hound training and bear hound training at the exact same times of year.

            • Ida Lupine says:

              Yes, ‘coincidentally’. Wink, wink.

            • Tim says:

              Yes they do run in packs but not all do or all the time. The wolves will run, I will just about guarantee it. I can’t explain why but animals just react differently when they know they are being hunted. Like I said nobody is going to turn dogs loose when they know a pack is in the area.

              You wont get any argument from me about depredation payments. I don’t think anyone should get paid for losing a hunting dog or livestock for that matter. If that is how it works then people should get reimbursed for any loss due to wild animals including vegetables. That is not something I would support.

          • Immer Treue says:


            “t on a an entire pack. The hunters will single out 1 wolf in an area that is accessible to them. They will wait for a good snow fall to do this. Then they will turn the dogs down on the track and attempt to get in front of them. The wolf is going to run circles and zig zag trying to lose the dogs…”

            Most of Wisconsin’s wolves are in forested areas. The hounders will have radio collars on their hounds and “attempt” to get ahead of them??? Excuse me but WTF?! They could be as much as a quarter mile away, especially if wolves do lead hounds in circles as you describe.

            And here’s something else. So many folks say wolves will learn. They already hate dogs. What’s going to happen in the future to bird dogs, folks walking in the woods with their dogs during nonhunting seasons?

            This is nothing else but pandering to a lobbying group, and what it has done is put Wisconsin in the cross hairs of ill conceived practices that will darken Wisconsin’s reputation, and open the door for all sorts of reaction.

            Suppose I’m that bird hunter, and the hound(s) break off after my dog. Sorry, but your hound(s) is/are dead.

            It’s just f>%£ing STUPID!

            • Tim says:

              The dogs can tell the difference between a wolf and a dog. They can even distinguish between different species of bears. That scenario isn’t even close to realistic because it would have already happened with coyote hunting.

              I understand if you don’t like hunting with hounds but don’t start making stuff up.

              • Immer Treue says:


                I’m not making stuff up. Call it a crystal ball. There is so much unknown yet as to the overall effect of wolf hunting. Some may say wolves may learn to avoid dogs, others say wolves may learn to hate dogs more.

                Explain to me how a wolf differentiates between hounds going after a bear, and after it. Yeah, there might be some lone wolves out there, but good chance they’ll end up running into a pack, and that ain’t making stuff up. it’s densely wooded areas.

                Deer hunter don’t want hounds out there, birders don’t want them out there. Good first step to eventually have all hounding banned in Wisconsin.

            • Tim says:

              As far as what will happen in the future. Who says hunting them with dogs wont teach them to stay away from bird dogs and people walking their dogs? Works with bears and cats.

              • Louise Kane says:

                Immer you wrote,” Deer hunter don’t want hounds out there, birders don’t want them out there. Good first step to eventually have all hounding banned in Wisconsin.” nobody wants them out there but a fringe group that is about to be allowed to legally terrorize wolves and other wildlife, place dogs at risk, and create mayhem in the forests. its bullshit barbarism that needs should be outlawed.

              • jon says:

                It’s natural behavior on the part of wolves to go after other canines. You will never take this natural instinct away from them. Hunting dogs will be killed by wolves. There is no question about this. As I understand it, now houndsmen in WI will not get reimbursed if their hounds are killed by wolves. These houndsmen care nothing for their dogs. If they did, they wouldn’t be putting them in danger letting them chase unpredictable wild animals. They use them as tools to chase wild animals up trees, so they can kill the treed animal. The wolf is the top dog in the wild, so I have a hard time believing that wolves that are more powerful than hunting dogs are going to run away if they see hunting dogs chase them.

              • Louise Kane says:

                which wolves will pass on these behaviors. They are slaughtered too fast to do anything but try and and eek out a miserable existence among the snares, traps, guns, bows and arrows, other wolves and now dogs and hunters chasing them. I’d like to see one human survive an onslaught like this. How many wolves will be passing on learned behaviors when they are being taken out randomly and entire packs are targeted by people like Josh Branson, the creep who posed with the trapped bleeding wolf and then bragged about setting 100 traps nearby so he could kill the largest male and the others in the pack. learning to live under constant stress, fear, anxiety and pain is what they are learning. Truly appalling that this is happening.

        • Rita k Sharpe says:

          Me, too.

      • jon says:

        They advocate for the killing of bear, cougar, and many other critters you mean. Hunting dogs will be killed by wolves just like they have in Idaho and Montana and in Wisconsin as well. It’s you that needs to get your facts straight.

      • jon says:

        I don’t know about the rest of the world, but I do know that wolves have killed numerous hunting dogs in Montana, Idaho and Wisconsin.

        • Ida Lupine says:

          It’s a risk they willingly take. But to then turn around and call it an attack, when they actively go out and chase wolves with dogs, and then get the taxpayers to reimburse the hunter for their losses of the dogs, is really stretching it. It’s a strange world we live in we twist everything to our favor.

          • Ida Lupine says:

            At least that’s how I heard it goes in the Great Lakes states. I bet if they didn’t get reimbursed, you’d see that kind of hunting dry up. I see people out training retrievers for bird hunting when I’m out hiking. Terrorizing and killing animals shouldn’t be an enjoyable pastime.

          • Immer Treue says:


            I’m pretty sure those pursuing wolves with dogs, if said dogs are killed by wolves, are not entitled to reimbursement for their losses. Ma’iingan will know for certain.

            • Ida Lupine says:

              Unless they changed things (this was for dogs allegedly killed by wolves while they were bear hunting, but never underestimate human creativity to get money):


              • Ida Lupine says:

                The point is, if you are out hunting you and your dogs are vulnerable to wild animals. You shouldn’t get reimbursed for lost dogs at all. If your dog was killed by a bear, you wouldn’t – but if it was killed by a wolf, you would? It doesn’t make sense, especially since wolves weren’t reintroduced in the Great Lakes? Some (not so) clever lawmaking going on.

              • Ida Lupine says:


                They seem to be exploiting the law that allows for reimbursement of ‘livestock’. But supposedly now the funds to reimburse hunters for lost dogs will come out of the licensing fees. We’ll see how long that lasts.

                There has to be compromise coming from wolf haters and hunters in some way, but there isn’t.

            • Paul says:

              They don’t get reimbursed if they say that they are hounding wolves. However, all they have to say is that they were going after coyotes and guess what? Another fat $2500 check from the Wisconsin DNR courtesy of Rep. Scott Suder(R-ALEC).

              • Ida Lupine says:

                That’s why I hope they don’t delist the wolves for the lower 48. Northern NE has the primest of prime wolf habitat and less population. USFWS fell down on the job for reintroducing wolves to the northernmost Northeast states (too much under the sway of the Western states, IMO), and they will be shot here as coyotes without protection.

              • Immer Treue says:


              • Ida Lupine says:

                Oops, for *not* reintroducing wolves to the Northeast. Sorry!

                “Still reviewing” the subject of wolves in the Northeast leaves us in limbo.

              • Louise Kane says:

                Thank you for that information Paul.

              • Immer Treue says:


                As per above, but with “coincidental”

                ” The DNR also agreed that any hound killed while actually hunting wolves would not be paid for. Coincidentally, the hounders have set up wolf hound training and bear hound training at the exact same times of year.”

              • jon says:

                You’re right I believe, all they have to do is lie and they get reimbursed. It’s a win win for the houndsmen. Houndsmen care nothing for their dogs. They get reimbursed and buy some more hounds. The urge to use dogs to chase and harass wildlife never ends with these people. Houndsmen should not be reimbursed at all if their hunting dogs are killed by wild animals. Common sense tells you there are risks and dangers letting your dogs chase unpredictable wildlife in the woods.

              • Paul says:


                This “reimbursement” garbage has been going on since the beginning and there is no way that the hounders are going to get off of that gravy train. Suder saw to that. It is refreshing that Wisconsin is finally getting some national attention for the brutality that they allow. Unfortunately it is too little too late.

  61. Louise Kane says:

    Tomorrow morning, Nancy Warren of Wolfwatcher will be discussing the (MI) wolf hunt on live radio with State Senator Tom Casperson. She needs to call the station at 7:25, interview will begin around 7:30 – can listen online (they do not archive their shows)

    This is Eastern Standard time
    if you recall Casperson introduced SB 288 and passed it through with his cronies. This provides that the DNR (an appointed not elected) board is the only agency allowed to appoint game species. The legislation essentially made a citizens initiative moot after more than 257,000 signatures were collected in a state referendum process to hold a vote. MI citizens and the tribes are strongly against a hunt. Nancy and Protect MI wolves are still working hard and have not given up. This act in particular illustrates how special interests have hijacked the wolf issue and democratic traditions that people still believe in and actively participate in. Everyone should be concerned about this example of the erosion of democracy as well as an oncoming wolf hunt where none is needed.

  62. Louise Kane says:

    to designate (not appoint) game species

  63. CodyCoyote says:

    Grizzly mauling near Cody today . Nic Patrick, a lifelong resident of the South Fork of the Shoshone and retired log home builder is an active conservationist and was a longtime board member of the Greater Yellowstone Coalition . Patrick mixed it up with a sow and two cubs while irrigating shortly after 6 AM when they all surprised one another. Patrick’s dog detected the approaching bears and started barking . The sow griz charged and Patrick defended himself with his irrigating shovel. At some point he must’ve gotten bit by the sow. The bears retreated and Patrick was able to walk for help. He’s currently under observation and antibiotics at the local hospital. Wyo G&F is attempting to trap the three bears. Decision to euthanize or relocate depends on the bear’s history. It’s probably the same three bears that have been seen along the river thereabouts in recent weeks.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      I wish we wouldn’t call these unfortunate encounters ‘attacks’. We’re encroaching on the bears’ and other animals’ habitat. It was an accident. Bears cannot change their behavior or at least very much – but we can (but don’t).

      • cobackcountry says:

        You are correct that the bear behaved instinctively, but it was an attack. More people should take heed and learn well. Animals behave with the instincts they have to survive. We should never make them anamorphic, we should always respect their power and space. If you pretty it up, nobody will take the threat seriously, of animals to humans or humans to animals. That will undoubtedly lead to more tragic events for both people and bears.

        I say, call it an attack, but clarify it by calling it an unintentionally provoked attack. Call it a maternal protection attack…..but never stop being honest about what actually happened. The sow attacked a man she likely perceived as a threat. If you take away the legitimacy of the wordage, you lose the integrity with which you defend the bear’s actions.

      • Robert R says:

        There will be more unfortunate encounters unfortunately because the ever growing grizzly population has to expand and this is why delisting is in the future like it or not.

    • Louise Kane says:

      sow with cubs..
      its terrible the man was attacked but the sow must have been protecting her family

    • Mike says:

      a log home builder conservationist.


  64. jon says:

    Great news. The farm bill is dead, killed by republicans.

    • cobackcountry says:

      While I believe right now people need help, I also believe we need to stop tweaking price floors and ceilings for farmers. Instead of paying people not to farm, pay them to farm greener, and use the food to feed the hungry instead of sending them to the market with food stamps to buy packaged pollution covered crap. Hey- just a thought. Or, perhaps we could have community service time for recipients, where they help to cultivate crops etc. There is great pride and joy to be found in harvesting a meal you helped grow.

  65. cobackcountry says:

    Are says “hey!” I asked about the take over, and now plan to oppose the two of you in some way which would prompt a take over in my home office space. LOL…Oh, and today he was my gate wench for a few minutes!

  66. Louise Kane says:

    sound familiar
    australia’s national parks under attack
    federal government shirks duties to all citizens and allows states to weaken national park system. Very sad times

  67. Louise Kane says:

    I think of states in some contexts like special interests. Local interests should not trump the overall health of species, habitats that need to be connected through various states to preserve the health of particular ecosystems or the wildlife in them. Natural resources belong everyone. The states don’t always seem to do a great job of managing these assets with long-term goals in mind.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      See, this is where things get too far afield IMO. You can’t treat real wildlife like a zoo or a television show. You see what you see for the moments you are there.

      When I go birding, I try to enjoy it all – the moment, the weather, the time of day, plant life, any mammal life I see, insects, and the birds. I never go away ‘dissatisfied’. It’s not something that you have to get your money’s worth. This is the problem I have with outfitters and trophy hunters also.

      You have to have a general appreciation. Manhy hunters do have a great appreciation for nature, or at least used to. It’s not a contest or a list to tick items off on.

  68. Ida Lupine says:

    Rhino horn prices are so high, some medicine shops sell fake rhino horn made from buffalo horn. Bui says some people even make rhino horn out of industrial plastic.

    Hooray for dishonesty!

    • cobackcountry says:

      Let them down plastic. That seems about fair.

      • Ida Lupine says:

        I shouldn’t chuckle I suppose. I wouldn’t want to see anybody hurt. But no FDA or laws to protect consumers, and add a good dose of human greed, and the problem may ironically solve itself with the placebo effect. China had a huge scandal with adulterating milk with melamine.

        • cobackcountry says:


          If only they could figure out how to metabolize the plastic to the correct appendage! Problem solved, as plastic is the forever substance!

          Sorry, I am finding amusement in the thought of people figuring out they paid for plastic…you’d almost think this was an American ruse!

          • Ida Lupine says:

            It is funny. If they’d only stick to traditional herbal medicines, much easier to continue using without a poor animal going extinct for somebody’s silly ‘hangover’ cure. Probably would work better too.

            • cobackcountry says:

              I don’t know, Colorado has legalized some herbal medicine….and many animals may be consumed as a result of munchies 🙂 lol Seriously, the list of craziness we have called medicine makes me question how we ever developed any legit treatments at all. If we had the same reg’s through the FDA when we first began using aspirin, it would either be banned or prescription only.

              I guess we should acknowledge some truly wonderful animals who truly contribute medicinally…shout out- to Gila Monsters, vipers, bees, fish, ants, leeches, maggots, and all the rest!

              • Ida Lupine says:

                Ha! I do like the herbal plant medicines too, and they really seem to work! Shoutouts to Foxglove, St. John’s Wort, Willow tree bark, quinine, poppies and Ginseng! 🙂

              • Immer Treue says:


                An important plant is missing from that list.

              • cobackcountry says:

                LOL- Nature can provide!

    • jon says:

      Thanks for that link. Trophy hunters are soulless individuals who lack compassion and respect for wildlife. Everytime you see a picture of these people smiling while holding up an animal who they killed mainly for sport and for trophy is very disturbing to see.

      • cobackcountry says:

        Ugh, broken records. You kill living beings every time you eat, every time you breath…what makes you feel that one being is so much more important than another? You know what, never mind. Don’t answer. To me, you are just as extreme as people who support canned hunts and those who poach. You may have a different view point, but you are no less irrational and far reaching as people who do those things.

        Ralph, and all- I’m sorry. After years of reading and posting here, I finally got enough that I spoke out. I am a conservationist, I commit time, money and my heart to being a part of solutions. I may have finally lost all hope that there are any! It feels like reading here can do the same damage as beating my head with a sledge hammer! Nobody wants to listen, or learn—-just preach and demoralize others who differ in opinion from them. FRUSTRATED!!!

        • cobackcountry says:

          May I suggest a thread of posts for proposed solutions that may stand a chance of coming to fruition? One where people can put their ideas out there in hopes that other people might read, counter, and rationalize ideas that may lead to obtaining a feasible goal of the greater good? Where perhaps slamming everyone else who thinks differently might be less likely? Where maybe, just maybe, people might actually open their minds and look for what can be done, instead of rehashing what they FEEL.

          • SAP says:

            cobackcountry wrote “Where maybe, just maybe, people might actually open their minds and look for what can be done, instead of rehashing what they FEEL.”

            I strongly second your suggestion. There are people on here whose comments are so repetitive and predictable, I’m beginning to wonder whether they’re just generated by a computer program. If not, I wonder whether they could save themselves a lot of time, maybe spend more time outdoors or get an extra job, by having a computer program generate their comments for them.

            It used to be, one could pull up this site, and scan the “Recent Comments” sidebar to see if there was some interesting discussion going on. Once in awhile, I still get lucky and see names of some high quality participants under “Recent Comments.” Far too often, though, the list is populated by a few names making zero content comments.

            If this is your primary outlet for letting the world know how strongly you feel about wolves and other creatures, it might be time for some reflection. Action speaks way louder than keystrokes.

            • Immer Treue says:


              For the most part I agree with you. It has been brought up a number of times on this blog, that those who participate here don’t even register as a microcosm of the nations population.

              There are those that peruse the site, but choose not to participate, yet with the social media that exists out there, one would hope that the discerning readers take some of the information, discussion, and yes feeling and post it elsewhere such as on Facebook, where most who have no idea what goes on in the world of wolf, get some exposure.

              A number of us commented on an anti-wolf zealot above, yourself included (not meant as a tit for tat), but individuals like him who make the “circuit” need be exposed for what they are.

              Your post does bring to mind a conversation with a friend when we were 9 or so and I whined about something. He said, “quit bitching, I’ve got my own problems.” Though meaningful discussion is much more rewarding to read, it to can dead end. A movement in Michigan gathered over 250,000 signitures to put wolf hunting on the ballot. The effort proved fruitless as legislators snuck hunting in for this year.

              Much of this is posted here, and there are grassroots (perhaps a much overused term) efforts across the country in support of wolves.

              Yes, let’s do come up with solutions, so that management of predators such as wolves does not always mean killing them as per hunting seasons that do little to address the problem wolves that need to be managed in the traditional way. Noise needs be made…

              • cobackcountry says:


                I agree with those statements.

                We need to make our voices heard. I just wish we would listen with the great attention and commitment to resolve issues, as we do when we speak.

                As far as legislation goes, I would dare to dream of a non-corrupt system. If we could fix that, we would be heroes amongst the masses. I commit to think of how to impact the system, and act on it.

              • cobackcountry says:

                Double typed a few letters Immer, sorry.

            • cobackcountry says:


              I hear ya. I’d like to believe that those who scroll through here might take away some perspective. Perhaps reading the variety of opinions and the content of some posts might persuade folks to take a closer look, learn a bit more?

              I am all for healthy discussion, and I welcome new information. I have learned a lot from a few people who post here.

              This site offers some valuable content, and some even better expertise. So, I revisit. If it were not for the few who still teach me new things, I might not. I try to be open minded, and find use in most things posted. Some days, it is harder than others.

              Thanks for the post.

        • Mark L says:

          Everything has to die…..E V E R Y T H I N G. That fact has no morals, it just is. Eating something you hunt has value.
          To YOU, Jon may be just as bad, but to most he is not. He is on the internet saying his spill, not poaching rhinos or downing lions to get a picture of it and a skin. Yeah, for the most part, trophy hunting sucks. Why? Because SO MANY people can do it (and fairly cheaply too), which means the trophy doesn’t really mean jack once those people are dead and their kids/grandkids look around and wonder why there’s no wildlife. It takes a generation or 2, but inevitably they DO look around and realize something is missing. It’s all about ego….and finding as use for the expensive weapons they have bought.

          • cobackcountry says:

            OMgoodness, really? Trophy hunters are not the cause of all wildlife woes.

            I said “to me”….I never said to everyone. I would also not say “most: because that is a presumptive statement which cannot be supported or tested.

            Ego huh? Seems like you don’t need a high powered rifle to have issues with that one.

            “SO many” is a stretch. But even if I give you that one, it still doesn’t discredit the fact that much, of not most, of all monies spent conserving habitat and species, comes from the tags those wretched hunter buy.

            I read all the preachy posts here, where people poor their hearts out. I acknowledge we each are entitled to our feelings and opinions. However, I can count a finite few who remove emotion and focus on science. The same few know the laws, the history, the facts.

            You can’t base management on any person’s feelings, because frankly, it doesn’t work.

            You cannot and will not ever please everyone. So do something that might have a hope in hell of succeeding, and realize that your line of thinking isn’t necessarily the only one.

            I concede many people take issue with hunting. Hell, I take issue with SOME myself. But that isn’t solving anything. Posting hate links doesn’t help, and might just alienate people more.

            There was a time when I might have been behind digging my heels in and opposing any hunting of wolves. Then, I hopped on the internet and realized how judgmental and uninformed many people can be.

            I choose not to be THAT person, who say “My way or no way”. I choose to look for realistic solutions. Like it, don’t like it, hate me, or not. It won’t change the fact that you nor Jon, nor any person, will make people who hunt (even for trophies) feel they are immoral for doing it.

            As a hunter who supported wolves being placed back, who eats or donates what I kill, these posts make me wonder “Where do these extremists stop?” Is subsistence hunting too far? What about eating meat at all?

            The one thing you said that I can agree with is:

            “Everything has to die…..E V E R Y T H I N G. That fact has no morals, it just is. Eating something you hunt has value.”

            That statement PROVES my point. Now can we move on from hating all hunters? (Yes, Jon is one who comes across TO ME as feeling that way.) Point out some solutions instead of pointing fingers and throwing around hateful innuendo.

            See, when some people read this page, they may take that sentiment with them…tat this is a place of posts where nobody looks to solve, and many seek to blame. It accomplishes SQUAT!

            • cobackcountry says:

              Excuse my typos, please. I have pudgy fingers and a small phone.

              • Ida Lupine says:

                Not to worry.

              • ZeeWolf says:

                cobackcountry – thank you so much for your excellent posts and perspectives, and honesty regarding the sense of frustration you feel. Your thoughts often echo my own, only I don’t have the cojones nor the cognitive ability to convert my thoughts to words.

            • jon says:

              There are PLENTY of non-hunting conservationists on here who despise trophy hunters and rightfully so. Seeing a trophy hunter smiling while holding up a leopard he just killed for sport is troubling and disturbing to a lot of people. You hunt, fine, you support trophy hunting and killing wild animals for sport, fine, but don’t be surprised when there are others out there or on here who despise trophy hunters and trophy hunting.

              • cobackcountry says:


                Thanks, and I think you can hold your own.


                Despise away. Do it with the reality that as many people who ‘despise’ trophy hunters, also support them.

                It seems like the majority of hatefulness on here comes from “anti-hunters”. Ironic really, that you could so easily hate another person and write off the opinions, emotions and facts of entire populations/groups of people-yet you present yourself as someone who feels he is righteous and free of condemnable behavior.

                I see that you have an opinion. I see that you despise most of the people who have picked up the tab to ‘conserve’ the animals you hold on high. Point taken, and no progress was made. Have a nice evening.

        • jon says:

          Someone is extreme because they dislike trophy hunters that kill wild animals for sport and for trophies? Right, that makes a lot of sense.

        • jon says:

          These animals that are being killed by trophy hunters are not being eaten by the trophy hunters. They are being specifically killed for sport and for trophies. The extreme ones are the trophy hunters who are killing leopards, lions, etc for sport and for trophies. It is perfectly normal and acceptable for people to dislike trophy hunters given the activity that they participate in. You have your views and others have theirs.

        • Mike says:

          ++Ugh, broken records. You kill living beings every time you eat, every time you breath…what makes you feel that one being is so much more important than another? ++

          This is really one of the dumbest things I’ve seen posted here.

          • cobackcountry says:


            Did you even read the posts prior? I guess the comparison evades you? Either way, your opinion won’t keep me up at night. I have read far dumber….and will refrain from tossing out names.

            Do you have a reason to negate the statement? Please, feel free.

            People need to realize that killing is not quantifiable. You can’t pick and choose what kind of killing is acceptable. You might feel it was dumb, but it is real and it is honest. It seems ‘dumb’ to run around tossing flower pedals of peace, love, and happiness at people, while spewing hate at their way of life. It seems equally as dumb to act like you are above a behavior yet that behavior is a necessity of existence.

            Now, tossing aside how one being dies, and bashing on people for how another dies seems ‘dumb’ to me. But hey, interpretation is key. Well that, and comprehension. So to each his own. I’d rather make ‘dumb’ statements and know I wasn’t a hypocrite than make YOUR version of smart statements and feel like I was dishonest.

            Excellent retort though. Keep it up!

  69. Ida Lupine says:

    LOL, I know Immer and Co. I’m not sure about that one yet. 🙂

    • Ida Lupine says:

      I don’t associate it with really important, useful drugs I guess like digitalis, aspirin, anti-malarials and morphine – just more human self-indulgence and recreation.

      • cobackcountry says:


        I’d say it is increasingly seen for it’s medicine value. I can be of great help to people who have failure to thrive, it promotes appetite amongst those who are anorexic. I’d say it has recreational and health value.

        • Ida Lupine says:

          Yes, I have heard it does promote appetite for patients so that is a good thing, and well-being and relaxation in a medicinal way. I think the problem I have is that it never did anything for me, so I don’t have real experience with it.

          • cobackcountry says:

            I’ve only ‘inhaled’ once. Gave me a headache. But it’s nice to know I would have that option if I had to undergo treatment etc.

            • rork says:

              Ahha, ‘inhaled’ finally gave it away.
              Red osier dogwood bark.
              Try making tea instead. Enema works too. Easier on the lungs either way – my mom’s advice. The evidence of efficacy is lacking though.

              • cobackcountry says:

                LOL…no need at this time. I have seen people in the clinic who benefited from the appetite enhancement. Don’t know much about the rest. I have heard many people say it lessens bipolar swings.

            • Immer Treue says:

              Add to the mix reducing the nausea associated with chemo, and the stimulation of appetite with said people.

              Without sounding the NORML siren, renewable resource for paper, evolution of the paper industry…

              Oh, and music…

  70. cobackcountry says:

    While I am at it, let me commend people like Ida. I see that while she finds it emotionally painful acknowledges that there is also value in the opinions of hunters. And commendations to those who acknowledge that without the financial support of others, their personal hopes for conservation might never have a chance.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      Yes, I shouldn’t have had such a gut reaction. The hunters here know my opinions too – so no offense to them or their wives, I hope! It just brought to mind the guy who had his wife or girlfriend ship a bleeding wolf hide by FedEx to someone in Canada, which I was appalled that she would do it. I’d send his hide by FedEx to the authorities!

      My father used to hunt. I don’t mind deer and elk hunting at all, since all of us on earth need to eat! But I do object to unnecessary cruelty and certainly killing because of misinformation and misconceptions about predators. I think trophy hunting is, in today’s world of diminishing wildlife, selfish – never liked it really.

  71. CodyCoyote says:

    The Montana Supreme Court overturned the lower court decision that banned the relocation of Yellowstone Bison to the Fort Peck Reservation , throwing to the curb the specious argument that this was somehow a violation of property rights . Further, it reaffirms that reservation law is separate from state umbrella jurisdiction. Unfortunately , this does not go far in giving physical relief to Montana’s handling of wandering Yellowstone Bison.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      Further, it reaffirms that reservation law is separate from state umbrella jurisdiction.

      Good on all counts. I can’t believe the gall of these people sometimes.

  72. jon says:

    MI was going to allow trappers to trap wolves this upcoming wolf hunting season in MI, but trapping has been removed from the hunting season, so no wolves will be trapped by trappers in this upcoming wolf hunting season in MI. This is good news.

    • Louise Kane says:

      MI was going to have have a vote on whether to hunt wolves and it looked like wolves would not have been hunted, so the trapping part is great but lets not forget that the sobs bypassed a democratic process and usurped the right of the people to vote. There should be no wolf hunting this year. The people and the tribes don’t want it.

    • Elk275 says:

      What is so creepy about that picture? When I was that boy’s age in the picture; I had several pictures of me with animals that my father had shot. I shot my first big game animal, an antelope, when I was 12. I do not think that boy shot that deer: one he does not have hunter orange on, most states have a minimum age of 12 to 14 to hunt big game and he is to small to fire the necessary caliber weapon to kill a deer.

      • WM says:

        I think you are right Elk. To add to the points you already state, note that the rifle in the picture appears to be a Winchester model 100, which is a five shot semi-automatic. Nobody in their right mind would give a kid, especially one that age, that type of rifle to hunt deer. Fortunately, I don’t know anyone who uses a semi-auto.

      • Mike says:

        In never understood this desire to take a photo with a dead animal. There’s something so creepy about it. But, I don’t find the kids picture all that disturbing. He’s a kid. Kids get their hands on everything, outgrow some of it, or not.

        The photos that creep this shit out of me are the ones with these ruddy, fat ass white males, eyes all watery and wide as they hoist up dead animals. These guys never grew up.

        that kid still has a chance.

        • jon says:

          I have no problem with someone killing a deer for food, but I do find it strange that hunters take pictures of their kills smiling. I find it much more disturbing when hunters take pictures of animals they kill for sport like coyotes or wolves. These people think they’re badasses because they’re able to kill animals with a gun.

        • Ida Lupine says:

          Yes, he may reject that kind of culture once (if) he learns to think for himself when he’s older. I agree, I don’t like pictures of doughboys beating up on animals either.

    • Mark L says:

      I’ve got mixed feelings about the picture, and the message. I hunt too, so I think ‘teaching kids to kill’ isn’t a bad thing in itself as it’s a necessary part of life (argue all we want about at what age and why). Teaching kids the morals that go along with owning a gun that kills things by pointing and pulling a trigger is another issue. As I’ve said before (somewhere in this same thread?) the ego….the me, me, me….the let’s take a picture with a dead animal obsession is the root of the problem to me, not the killing itself. For example, the kid in the pic isn’t going to dress the deer, probably will only eat enough to make daddy/mommy happy, and maybe did it to make daddy/mommy happy, not because he needs to eat (does he look malnourished) or because he chose to. So is he lazy? no, he’s just a kid being manipulated (by several different people).

  73. Harley says:

    I think I would have needed to change my pants after this encounter! LOL!

  74. jon says:

    This is the new billboard that the RMEF put up. No surprise, they are blaming the wolves for the elk reduction in yellowstone. Some people ask the question, does RMEF really and truly care about elk or do they only care about having a large elk farm, so hunters can have a bunch of elk to kill? RMEF doesn’t come up and say they would like wolves eradicated, but you do get the feeling that RMEF only wants one elk hunter out there and that is the human. They don’t like it when wolves kill elk, but they have no problem with humans killing elk.

    • jon says:

      RMEF says get the facts, but they are claiming that wolves are to blame for the 80% decline in yellowstone’s elk herds.

      • Immer Treue says:

        But one of the fonts of information of the antis had this to say about the Northern Range:

        “From the above 1996 article:…”National Park Policy has allowed elk numbers to increase from 3100 in1968 to some 20,000 today on the northern range – ‘what they’re changing this into is a lawn. There’s more to an ecosystem than grass,’ says Charles Kay…”

        “Tourists like abundant viewing opportunities for wildlife in the park (Yellowstone). To which Kay bluntly replies:”if you want lots of elk and bison to make the tourists happy,its not a nature park, it’s a theme park-it’s entertainment. So you might as well let Disney run it.”

      • Immer Treue says:

        more Charles Kay, from Wildlife Society Bulletin  Volume 26 number 3  Fall 1998

        Aspen, Elk, and Fire in the Rocky Mountain  national Parks,%20elk,%20and%20fire%20in%20the%20Rocky%20Mountain%20national%20parks%20of%20North%20America.pdf

        recommendations by Kay and the other two authors:

        “we make four specific interim  recommendation in many Rocky Mountain national parks: restore carnivores, bison, and fire, and carefully manage human use.

        1. The weight of evidence clearly demonstrates the role of carnivores in the long term structuring of Rocky Mountain ecosystems.  In the past, keystone species(Mills et al. 1993) in these landscapes were humans and wolves. Their combined effect on ungulates structured much of the ecosystem (Kay 1994, 1997b; Kay et al. 1994). In national parks where human hunting is now largely prohibited, we must whenever possible, maintain populations of predators such as wolves…”

        • jon says:

          thanks immer. Before wolf reintroduction, they were too many elk people complained and now they aren’t enough according to those who want a very big elk population. I don’t mind it when people say that wolves have played a part in bringing the elk population down in YNP, but I do have a problem with those people who think it was wolves and wolves only that brought the elk population inside yellowstone down.

        • JEFF E says:

          now Immer, you know what you are posting is sacrilege in certain circles.


        • Louise Kane says:

          Thank you Immer

  75. Nancy says:

    This is NOT exactly wildlife news but I felt it was worth posting given the reactions to “their” arrival some 13 years ago in Southwest Montana and now….. THEY’RE BACK! And in the same location…

    Robert R can probably relate to the huge increase of Forest Service and law enforcement so obvious around the area (the town of Jackson is once again ground zero/ command headquarters 🙂

    Yep. 15 thousand people can impact an area (public lands) over the course of a few days (even though that gathering does everything in their power to leave little impact when gone) yet few are outraged when thousands of cattle, annually, destroy the same areas?

    • Robert R says:

      Nancy these people have no respect. There has already been panhandling,stealing and abandon vehicles. They had bus stop in the town of Melrose and they had a sign that read (you will loose your town if we don’t get gas).
      Just last night at Safeway a bunch of them were panhandling my wife to buy gas for them.
      The rainbows never paid the bill for the last visit to Montana. The provides porta potties etc. and has to have extra law enforcement.
      Yes they do have big impact.

      • Robert R says:

        The county provides

        • Nancy says:

          “The rainbows never paid the bill for the last visit to Montana”

          Robert R – you have a very short memory when it comes to just how much their “gathering of folks” actually spent around this area while here last (2000)

          Knew all of the business people in Jackson and they paid off A HELL OF A LOT of their debt thanks to a few thousand who gathered “in them there hills” for a couple of weeks in 2000 🙂

          Respect? Come on! Get in your truck Robert R and come visit the gathering, your just a few miles away and judge for yourself.

          • SaveBears says:

            I visited a rainbow gathering in Washington several years ago, talk about a mess, we don’t need them in Montana.

            • Louise Kane says:

              savebears here is another thing we agree on huge numbers of people in one small area trashing the place. thumbs down I can not imagine anything less peaceful less appealing

              • Nancy says:

                “Likewise, if those in the environmental community only pay attention to the reports of resource degradation, trampled vegetation, disturbed landscape and displaced elk, but ignore the fact that hundreds of volunteers plan to stay in this valley for as long as it takes, until the first snows of Autumn if necessary, ensuring that every scrap of litter is picked up or recycled, every trail vanished, every compost heap and pit toilet buried and every structure dismantled, then they’ve gathered the facts but missed the truth. Rainbow Gatherings are not zero-impact camp-outs. Cities never are”

                Louise – you’ll have to come out sometime and we can compare landscapes – 20,000 Rainbows here for a week on public land, doing their best to make it right when they leave versus 10,000 head of cattle, 4-6 months out of the year on public land and no one making it right when they leave 🙂

              • Louise Kane says:

                Nancy …you are right I need to experinece it myself to make a judgement. I don’t like the idea of cattle or the thousands of people trampling the land. I prefer neither or that wildlife were using the land.

          • Robert R says:

            Nancy I’m not saying they don’t boost the local economy. It’s the few bad apples in any crowd. Do you remember all of the dogs that were left last time that were taken to the humane society.

            • Nancy says:

              Seems I recall 17 dogs were brought in to the shelter (plus a litter of puppies)

              But do you recall why this area suddenly had to have an animal shelter Robert R?

              • CodyCoyote says:

                I’m, not sure which would be worse— adjusted for scale — in impacting the wilderness and natural resource.

                The (1) annual Rainbow People gathering taking over a forest park , or ( 2) the big Halliburton Services ” Drunk and Dunk ” floating party on Yellowstone Lake , a flotilla of boats and over a hundred partiers . Yes, THAT Hallibrton.

                The public rarely hears about those soireés. You really do not want to be in whatever quadrant of the lake they are amphibiously assaulting.

                Way down in the South Arm of Yellowstone Lake is a tiny Island called Peale Island. The furthest south reach of the Arm is a Nonmotorized boating exclusion zone, i.e. canoes or kayaks only. Peale Island is 2-1/2 miles inside that exclusion zone. There is a dock and VIP lodge on the island . Navigate in Google Earth to these coordinates: 44.289265° , – 110.316292° and you’ll see it. The Park Service allows certain elite “guests” there , and even escorts them in NPS motorboats contrary to their own regulations. The Bush family used it during Dubya’s term ( may have been George Sr. and Barbara on one his cherished flyfishing trips ).

                There are other VIP backcountry lodges in Yellowstone.

                This is the total antithesis of the Rainbow People management scenario.

              • Louise Kane says:

                nancy its a good article and in principle I like the idea, I guess I have biased opinions because of what my friend went through at several of these events. And from her too I knew that dogs would be abandoned and that the human impact of that many people in one area was grand.

              • Robert R says:

                Nancy can’t answer the question about the shelter.
                The latest in Rainbows, they have streaked through Safeway causing a distraction and stealing groceries. It don’t stop there, they tried getting the outdated produced and they could not bum that so they peed on fresh produce. They have used receipts left in shopping carts to get groceries.
                Say what you want these people have no respect. The list keeps mounting.

          • Ida Lupine says:

            Oh brother. I hope this isn’t what our Administration means by getting out there and enjoying the national parks!

            I also hope that between magic thinking and grown up frat boys there’s an medium where there’s a little more reverence for nature and not entitlement. And it doesn’t mean you’re a fascist if somebody goes and gets the freaking permits necessary to have a large gathering!

            • Ida Lupine says:

              I should hope that reasonable human beings would leave the park in better shape than a herd of cattle, yes. Otherwise there truly is no hope for humanity. Then again, a spiritual place such as The Himalayas has been in the news lately for being trashed and bashed by Westerners, so I guess nothing is sacred.

  76. Robert R says:

    This is a positive thing for native fish. We have installed six of these fish screens in the Big Hole to help the grayling. The screens are on a much smaller scale and run off of a solar panel.

  77. rork says:

    No articles out yet but Michigan DNR confirms some Fishers back in lower peninsula. We kill about 500/year in the upper (and nearly that many martin).
    “It’s great to see another native species return to parts of its former range,” said DNR furbearer specialist Adam Bump. “Fishers are another species in Michigan that benefit from habitat management and science-based harvest regulations.”
    Bump presumably means that regulating harvest is better than harvest without regs, but tries to make that sound as if harvest benefits Fishers. He’s gotten practiced at that during our wolf debates. Such expert phraseology has become common here. What Fishers really benefited from is us not trapping them to pieces anymore. I’m starting to not like this guy.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      Such expert phraseology has become common here.

      I know what you mean. Good news, and I don’t think immediate hunting and trapping should follow species recovery, especially in these crazy days.

  78. Louise Kane says:

    A reminder to send comments to Montana by Wednesday at 5 PM. See below for info: send to

    Comments can be emailed directly to the Commission via this email address (above) also provided in our alert –

    Talking points provided

    Subject: Re: [WCCL] FW: URGENT!!! Wolf Hunt Comments Due on 26th

    We all know that it doesn’t seem to make a difference when it comes to our public comments making a difference when it comes to MFWP idiotic and reprehensible
    wolf management, but it will be on public record, and will show support for seeing wolves alive rather than dead and, it will show the rest of the world that more people value wolves and but a few want to eliminate them. These new regulations are being supported by the livestock industry, Rocky Mtn Elk Foundation, and other hunting groups and have nothing to do with science.

    PLEASE comment and here’s some talking points from WOTR and Kim Bean
    Wolves that are coexisting with humans and livestock will be killed for no other reason than bigotry and extreme mismanagement. Critical habitat for wolves near Yellowstone (Gardiner Basin) has been excluded from the quota areas. This is a deliberate attempt to kill as many YNP wolves as possible. With less than 25 wolves in the entire northern range of YNP, this will certainly prove an end to wolf packs of Yellowstone.

    Some of our concerns are as follows: Hunters & trappers will be able to hunt over baited traps, as well as use electronic calls to pull wolves from safety into their line of fire. Because of the extended season September 15, 2013 – March 31, 2014 hunters will be able to hunt wolves in the advanced stages of pregnancy. If a hunter kills an alpha female he/she has killed the future survival of the pack. Disruption of the pack structure will lead to increased depredation and smaller pack sizes, yet more packs on the land. A Visions of Walt Disney’s Fantasia “The Sorcerer’s Apprentice” comes to mind. A Wolf’s fur does not become full until late November; wolves killed prior to this are killed simply for the sake of killing.

    Issues of Concern or Talking Points

    1. Extended Season (15 Sept 2013 – 31 March 2014)

    • Hunting Pregnant Wolves

    • Pelt is Substandard

    • Unethical & Immoral

    • Disruption of the Pack Structure

    • Killing to Hunt or Hunting to Kill

    • Bitterroot Elk Study Research states Very Low Wolf Predation

    2. Bag Limit of 5

    • Annihilate Entire Pack

    • Disrupt Pack Social Structure

    • Increased Depredation

    • Leads to Smaller Packs = Increase in Packs on the landscape

    • Decrease in Recruitment

    • Killing Pregnant Wolves 1Ž2 way through gestation

    • Black Science

    • In Contrast with North American Wildlife Conservation Model

    3. Baiting Traps

    • Not Fair Chase & Unethical

    • Unenforceable

    • Drastic Departure from Montana Wolf Management Plan

    Yellowstone Wolves

    Gardiner Basin MUST be included in the quota unit of 313

    Revenue producing value of 35.5 + million sustainable dollars to the communities surrounding YNP

    Research value utilized world-wide

    Number 1 tourist attraction in YNP

    These are not just Montana’s wolves, but the Nations wolves

    Miscellaneous Talking Points

    Could help slow or contain CWD Chronic Wasting Disease

    Livestock Depredation continue to decline – In 2012 2.6 million cattle in MT, depredation by wolves 67

    Huge deviation from the Montana Gray Wolf Management Plan

    Under Public Trust Doctrine Wildlife belong to all Montanans

    Elk Populations are virtually at or above objectives in Montana 55% above objective

    More elk now in Montana then when wolves were reintroduced

    Approximately 73 wolves in Yellowstone

    Less than 25 in the Northern Range of YNP – only 18 in Lamar Valley”

  79. Nancy says:

    “The latest in Rainbows, they have streaked through Safeway causing a distraction and stealing groceries. It don’t stop there, they tried getting the outdated produced and they could not bum that so they peed on fresh produce”

    Did you personally witness any of these events Robert R? Hell, I tried to get leftover produce from Safeway a few years ago (for my chickens) and was told it was against their policy – they were afraid I’d bring back and try and get a refund – so much for trust, huh 🙂 My guess is Safeway’s so anal about it, they don’t even donate it to the local food bank.

    As far as dis-orderly conduct & pissing – have you ever been downtown Dillon (at night) over the Labor Day weekend? When its the “good ole boys” creating mayhem, gettin drunk, pissing in the streets, everyone turns a blind eye.

    How many teenagers have been scraped off the highways around here, out drinking & joyriding? Check out the police reports in the weekly paper, who do you think is breaking into houses & cars? Or being arrested for “minor in possesion”? This goes on year round, Robert R.

    • SaveBears says:


      I am really quite surprised at your position on these people? I remember the summer of “Love” it was not a pretty picture!

  80. Robert R says:

    Nancy I have a friend in law enforcement and know several employees at Safeway so its not hear say. I have a friend who’s girl friend works at IGA and the have had a lot of shop lifting.
    The big difference is extra law enforcement is not needed year around.

    • Louise Kane says:

      Robert R you just described hearsay. a friend in law enforcement and knowing several employees at Safeway….if these people told you something its hearsay with rare exceptions one being that they were on their deathbeds perhaps……

      • Robert R says:

        Louise my wife delivers meals to the jail also and the meal count is up because of the rainbows. And yes a lot of them are dear beats. No it’s not hear say for your information.

        • JB says:

          Robert, Grab a dictionary and look up hearsay. I assure you, what you described (above) is, in fact, hearsay. And what is the point of this conversation? Show me any crowd of 10K, and I guarantee you there will be a few bad apples (Catholic priests, anyone). Seems all you’ve done is illustrate yet another example of ‘we don’t like ’em folks cause they ain’t like us’ response so typical of the rural West.

        • WM says:

          Robert R,

          Nancy is just trying to box you in, and discredit you by saying your information is not reliable because you don’t have the knowledge first hand- well, because its “hearsay.” So what! Most of our audio world is comprised of hearsay. Example, your neighbor says, “Susie had a baby.” You then tell your your wife, “Guess what, Susie had a baby.” HEARSAY (if you didn’t actually see the baby, or know from first hand knowledge Susie was pregnant…and had the baby, which you had seen. So, even if you knew from seeing Susie, and hadn’t actually seen the baby, she could still be pregnant).

          See what I mean. So, frickin’ what!

          Maybe it is good information, or maybe not. We all know of information that may or may not be true and we need to either need to independently verify it, or somehow discount its accuracy.

          Hearsay, as every first year law student will tell you, is a complicated concept to some degree to grasp (the rule is memorized then you try to understand it under various contexts). Hearsay- an out of court statement offered by someone other than the declarant to prove the truth of the matter asserted.

          It is a formal rule of proof for evidence, for the setting of a court of law. The hearsay rule is also subject to a number of exceptions and exemptions, that are quite practical really. I won’t list them because it is long – and one really needs to see a diagram (also complicated) to understand how they work.

          So, unless Nancy or Louise is holding court (not likely), or you fall for their bulshit to discredit you, just give your information for what it is worth – from your verifiable sources- and tell her/them whatever you like about their opinion ON YOUR SOURCES of information. Or, you could just say, my hearsay fits one of the exceptions to the hearsay rule. Then make them object again. 😉

    • Louise Kane says:

      hearsay noun auditio, evidence from impersonal knowledge, gossip, groundless rumor, indirect evidence, popular report, report, rumor, secondary evidence, seccndhand evidence, unconfirmed account, unconfirmed report, unverified comments, unverified news

      • SaveBears says:

        Come on Louise, even you and I agreed on the Rainbows the other day.


        • SAP says:

          Agreeing that 10,000 people up in Skinner Meadows is not good

          does not equal

          believing every rumor we hear about pissing on the carrots at the Dillon Safeway.

          Do I believe that there will be an undesirable element in a crowd of 10,000 plus? You bet. Do I believe that some of them shoplift? Sure. I’m not going to believe everything I hear about a crowd of dreadlocked hippies invading one of the more conservative parts of the Rockies, though.

          Tell me some stories about Rainbows, I’ll swap a few about over-privileged entitled jerks flyfishing the Madison.

      • Ida Lupine says:

        The word brings to mind wolves and what they are blamed for a lot of the time. Those poor bears, died of ‘exhaustion’? Ugh. What is wrong with people.

    • Nancy says:

      I spent a couple of hours sitting with a friend, at the coffee shop at Safeway yesterday Robert R and yes, lots of “different” looking people there and most of them were pushing shopping carts packed with groceries and bottled water, out the door. Stopped by the IGA on the way out of town and the place was very quiet. Not a “dreadlock” in sight.

      A couple of nights ago, someone contacted me because she was worried about their vacation home up here. She’d heard a rumor in Dillon that the local hot springs had been taken over by the Rainbows. I ran into one of the employees the next day and asked if they were doing okay (and related the rumor) she laughed and said they had 4 people staying in their cabins. Very quiet there also.

      Didn’t see a soul hitchhiking into to town or out but did pass some really cool Model T’s and same vintage, touring cars.

      And Robert R, the next time you get an update from your friend in law enforcement, you might ask him why the site outside of Jackson was chosen this year instead of the area over by Deerlodge. I’m hearing an interesting “rumor” about that, but can’t confirm it, its just hearsay at this point 🙂

      • Robert R says:

        Nancy when you were have coffee did you see a full time deputy policing Safeway and did you notice all bag ice chests at businesses around town have been locked.

        • Nancy says:

          Robert R – I saw a security guard come on around noon. He didn’t look like he could chase me down, let alone a healthy young “dreadlock” 🙂

          Locking the ice up seems like a reasonable precaution. It was only a few years ago that the gas stations finally wised up and went to pre-pay because of all the “drive offs”

          About a week ago, I heard a car was stolen and thats what happens sometimes when you leaving it in a parking lot, running & unlocked.

          A CITY of people are moving thru the area right now Robert R and the majority of them are good, honest people, shopping for supplies, buying gas and boosting the economy of Dillon.

  81. Robert R says:

    Louise I also watched the 10:00pm news and the sherrif said crime is up since the arival of the rainbows, right from the horses mouth, hear say Louise.

  82. JB says:

    Woman releases python in Ohio mobile home park

    The TV News coverage of this incident was ridiculous, with the local Sherriff insisting that someone’s child could be killed.

    • cobackcountry says:

      OH NO! People will do their worst without even thinking about it.

      Pythons and Nutria make me cringe with fear for the FL glades.

      The woman was probably oblivious to what the real problems could be. I doubt eating babies was the most likely problem to worry over.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      According to Cincinnati TV station WLWT, the woman told a deputy she released the snake at Sandstone Terrace Mobile Home Park on Sunday night because she couldn’t afford to feed it, and she didn’t want a hungry snake in her home. The woman reportedly told the deputy she hoped to run over it with a lawn mower later.

      These are some highly evolved emotions, for sure.

      • Mark L says:

        She probably got in an argument with the ‘cat lady’ on the other end of the trailer park. “I’ll teach her…”

  83. Ida Lupine says:

    I was maybe too harsh; the message of the Rainbow gathering is a good thing – equality, positive emotions. But a very large gathering is going to leave its mark on the national park or area, regardlessof intentions. Just make it a priority to clean up garbage and trash. And if the Forest Service says the location is in a fire hazard area, please have it somewhere else!

  84. ZeeWolf says:

    OK — so which would you rather have visit your town, if you had to have one or the other? 10,000 Rainbow types or 500 Hell’s Angels? Here are some links that describe the situation when 500 Hell’s Angels visited Gunnison during the summer of 2010. I hate to say it, but the imported law ienforecement was more of a threat to my own personael liberty than the bikers. They seemed to want to hassle the local citizenry for minor offenses as much as anything.

  85. Mike says:

    Most hunters and trappers are pieces of garbage.

    • JB says:

      Thanks for that valuable insight, Mike.

      • Ida Lupine says:

        Oh this one has always been my favorite of theirs and the one I can most relate to. 😉

    • ZeeWolf says:


      Couldn’t you have phrased it a touch bit better, for example: “Most hunters exhibit poor ethical choices and show general maliference towards my values so therefore I want to strip them collectively of thier right to hunt.” I don’t necessarily believe that quote I just stated, just trying to offer an alternative to the name calling.

      Speaking of assigning sobriquets, I say to thee, back to the filthy dungeon underneath the bridge from which you slithered, troll.

    • Immer Treue says:

      More Garbage!

    • Robert R says:

      Mike have you ever thought of what hunters and trappers think of you.

      Before you callthe kettle black look in the mirror, were you not once into hunting.

    • Immer Treue says:

      How could we not include the classic by the Trashmen
      Aves, this one is for you.

    • JEFF E says:

      looks like $3 had a fleeting inconsequential incidence of gonadotropin-independent testotoxicosis.

      seems to come and go. like raising a twelve-year old that never matures.

      • JEFF E says:

        looks like once again this cutting edge wildlife blog falls short.

        you guys(owners) have the ability to have the very most advanced vehicle of cutting edge commentary in the nation on the subject matter at hand. the blog has become cumbersome and outdated.

        like the daddy tomato said to the baby tomato: ketchup

        so what is it going to be?

        the antique motorcycle blogs I peruse do a better job.

        • Immer Treue says:

          Jeff E,

          In a sense you are correct. And I stress this is not to belabor the point, but the sarcasm intended targeted the anti hunting rant. I should have ignored it, as I’m sure most ignored my over done follow-up comments.

        • JB says:

          We’re sorely missing the comments of Brian Ertz, Robert Hoskins, and Seak Mossback–none of which post as frequently as they used to. Their thoughtful posts have been replaced (in a sense) by a number of folks who seem fixated on having anti-hunting tantrums. I hope we can get back to the thoughtful dialogue that used to occur daily on this blog. There are so many places for people to shout obscenities at each other on the internet–that niche is overflowing. This should be a place for more thoughtful exchanges.

          • Ida Lupine says:

            Oh I hope they will all come back. Maybe they are busy too, you never know. The name I am most familiar with is Seak Mossback.

            It is nice that our discussions are civil, respectful and varied. I hate that too when it gets to namecalling. I’ve learned more from those who don’t share my views as those who do, plus our experts.

  86. jon says:

    Was sent this link by someone. This is disturbing, but not surprising. This hunter in MI talks about the upcoming wolf hunt. The hunter in the video says that wolves are prettier when they are dead.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      I can’t bear to watch these things anymore. But quick, since we’re on the subject of music videos as of late, somebody cue up a video by Devo, I’m sure people like him are the inspiration for a band named for human de-evolution. 😉

  87. Jerry Black says:

    Oh, for the good ‘ole days!
    Salle and Robert Hoskins…. this blog needs your imput!

  88. Mark L says:

    a band called Green Jello has a youtube video called ‘little pig little pig let me in’….worth checking out to see the wolf.

  89. jon says:

    Some people call this sadism conservation. It’s deeply troubling and disturbing.

  90. Ida Lupine says:

    That must be a sign of the apocalypse, a Kennedy doing it. The fishermen in the East have a lot in common with (some) cattlemen and elk hunters in the West. Overfishing and into deep denial, blaming other animals for the disappearing fish stocks (never to return to their former glory and numbers), and getting coddled and given welfare by our gov’t officials. In Canada, the loss of income is compensated for by a seal hunt sponsored by the gov’t. One said ‘they need flexibility’ – can’t remember now if it was Markey or Gomez, and I didn’t vote for either). There isn’t any.

    • Ida Lupine says:

      Thank you, Jerry. I’ve been checking in frequently because this is crucial issue to me.

  91. Jerry Black says:

    I know there are a few others here that knew and miss Robert Hoskin’s contribution….he had a pulse on so many of these issues.
    Good news…just received an email from him (thanks Cody) and he is alive and well, living in the wilds of Wyoming.
    Understandable why he no longer comments here.

    • JEFF E says:

      I too miss Roberts input. just a gut feeling but I always feel that he had been set up by some piss-ants that manipulated a highly volatile time period.

  92. Louise Kane says:

    nearly 1/2 of wolf depredations in state attributed to 1 farm and their lazy and inhumane framing practices. These depredations used to justify wolf hunt

  93. lucasneetham says:

    I love watching wild animals and I had this keen interest of visiting places where I can watch wild animals in their natural habitat. Last year I visited Algonquin park and we stayed inside the park in Algonquin park accommodation for few days. During our stay in park we could watch numerous wild animals such as moose, deer, loon various reptiles and birds. I would say Algonquin park is a must watch location as far as animal lovers are considered.


June 2013


‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."

~ Edward Abbey

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