Pronghorn in Copper Basin. South Central Idaho

Pronghorn in Copper Basin. South Central Idaho. Copyright Ralph Maughan

There has really been a lot of reader generated news here lately. So now it is time for another new page for wildlife news. Please use “comment” at the bottom to post your news. Do not post entire articles unless you have our permission, or post copyrighted materials unless you own the copyright. Here is the link to the most recent (Nov. 7) “old” news.

About The Author

Ralph Maughan

Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University. He was a Western Watersheds Project Board Member off and on for many years, and was also its President for several years. For a long time he produced Ralph Maughan's Wolf Report. He was a founder of the Greater Yellowstone Coalition. He and Jackie Johnson Maughan wrote three editions of "Hiking Idaho." He also wrote "Beyond the Tetons" and "Backpacking Wyoming's Teton and Washakie Wilderness." He created and is the administrator of The Wildlife News.

382 Responses to Do you have some interesting wildlife related news? Nov. 19, 2014 edition

  1. Ed Loosli says:

    Cows – Water Quality – Lawsuit

    • Ralph Maughan says:

      Ed Loosli,

      Thank you for this news story.

      Checking to see if ranchers obey the water pollution laws can be legally hazardous in Fremont County, WY.

    • Nancy says:

      A similar article:

      “And it is under attack, both in the courts and in Congress.

      Why? Critics like The Fertilizer Institute and the American Farm Bureau are suing in federal court to stop the blueprint. They have actually said that if we are successful, other parts of the country might have to reduce pollution too. In other words, if the blueprint improves the health of the bay, a similar effort could be coming to a watershed near them before too long. That’s a problem only if you fear clean water”

    • Ralph Maughan says:

      I am glad to see this list of international environmental criminals made public. It is too bad there are so many of them ripping away chucks of our living systems.

  2. Louise Kane says:

    some amazing footage of whales surrounding Norwegian fishermen.

    I had two sets of friends come at the end of this summer; both wanted to go on a whale watch. I usually avoid them as the ships can be crowded and I am not quite sure how I feel about whale watching although I think I am more accepting of them now than I used to be.

    Anyhow, up until the last few years the only time I had ever seen whales in any numbers was on fishing boats far out in the Gulf Stream. The sightings were usually very private moments on an early morning or late afternoon watch where I was most always witness to their comings and goings alone.

    I used to see them frequently enough that I was able to observe them breaching, traveling in pods, slapping tails, and watching the boats regularly during the summer and spring months. We get Minke, Finback, and Humpbacks most often and they come to eat the sand eels.

    I saw something on this last whale watch that I had never seen in the past. For some reason, probably favorable prey conditions related to currents and temperature, the waters off Provincetown and out to Stellwagen Bank were full of whales this fall. I’m quite sure on the first whale watch I took my friends on in September we saw close to a hundred. Some traveled off the banks of race point just as the water deepened off the shelf.

    But it was the second watch that blew me away. After seeing dozens of whales, one humpback came within 5 feet of the ship, close enough that I feared for its safety, when suddenly it backed up a few feet and reared its huge head out of the water and studied us and the boat for a good long time. Then it slowly sank back into the water and stayed very close until it slowly backed up and left to meet up with the other two whales it was traveling with. I had never seen a whale get so close to a boat or lift itself from the water to investigate like that. It was clearly watching us and clearly unafraid.

    Seeing that whale watch us so intently was overwhelming and emotional. It made it worth enduring some of the tourists that acts as if they are at a rock concert pushing, shoving and screaming every time they see a whale instead of observing and appreciating “the moment”minus the hysteria.

    • Ed Loosli says:

      Louise Kane: I hope these whales in the video in Norwegian waters life a long life, but they might not be if they are Minke whales, as Norway is still allowing commercial whaling of Minke whales. A progressive county in so many ways, except for hanging onto the “tradition” of killing whales to eat.

      • Amre says:

        Ed, Norway also has “zones” where wolves are allowed and not allowed to live. Any wolf who steps across these invisible lines can be shot and killed. As a result, there are only about 25 wolves in norway.

    • Immer Treue says:

      “I had never seen a whale get so close to a boat or lift itself from the water to investigate like that. It was clearly watching us and clearly unafraid.”

      “For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings, they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time.”

      Once again, so appropriate!

      • Ed Loosli says:

        Ralph Maughan: Before this list gets too long, I want to thank you for the wonderful Southern Idaho photo featuring the alert pronghorns in their element – what a beautiful scene.

      • Louise Kane says:

        Yes, there is talk of building a new Fo’castle. The year that the beach breeched and took the house away was a big year. Nauset Inlet where Beston wrote that changed radically, a new “cut” was created that opened up Pleasant Bay to Nantucket Sound and the Atlantic. The entire shape of the barrier beach changed and the inland waterways. It was quite something. All of us locals that used the outer beach felt quite sad to see the house go. It was a local monument. We still point out the spot when heading out to the north barrier beach.

        Its quite an amazing location. In Provincetown, in another set of dunes and outback there is an artist retreat that is used much like Beston used his house. The link here shows a picture of one of the shacks its a bit like Beston’s place.

        This is a link to aerial footage of the nauset inlet and outer beach shot by a friend

    • Amre says:

      Louise, I remember going on a whale watching trip to Alaska in the summer of 2013. A humpback whale surfaced within 50 feet of the vessel. During that same trip to Alaska, I saw humpback whales breach twice one morning from a cruise ship. I will never forget those experiences. But the one I enjoyed more was seeing the whales breaching that morning, probably because there weren’t a bunch of tourist to deal with, and I was one of the few people to see the whales there.

    • Ida Lupines says:

      Yes, I’ve had a similar experience too – quiet, on a private boat with a few friends. Came so close to the boat, swam underneath – so close I could look into his eyes.

  3. Peter Kiermeir says:

    Florida Panthers Killed by Vehicles Ties Record, but Officials Say That May Be Good News

  4. Nancy says:

    “A feller buncher, or machine with a rotary disc that cuts and piles timber for the skidder to pick up, is helping clear a temporary road for the Three Saddle Project”

    I wonder how many healthy tress are cut down to clear the way up to this project?

  5. Helen McGinnis says:

    Study:Non-hunters contribute most to wildlife

    • rork says:

      This is the 4th time the Smith and Molde “article” has generated a news comment on TWN. It counts NO state funding, but does count the entire budget of Dept of Interior’s Wildlife Services, BLM, Forest Service, and National Parks.

      • WM says:

        Yeah, two guys with a website (and not much background in the topic area) and a gross distortion of the subject. Just how is the ENTIRE budget of the five largest federal natural resource agencies relevant to their assertion? Even worse is the affiliation of the authors with Wendy Keefover-Ring, formerly of WildEarth Guardians (now with HSUS), arguably the queen of data distortion in much of what she has written.

        • Helen McGinnis says:

          Thanks for the info, rork & WM. I scanned the Molde-Smith report; the figures didn’t make sense to me. Could you provide me with links regarding the credibility of Wendy Keefover-Ring?

          • WM says:


            You will have to draw your own conclusions on Keefover-Ring’s credibility. I expect some here will come out in her defense, not because of the truth and validity of her statistics, but the position she takes. Here is one document, probably her seminal piece, a criticism of Wildlife Services and the work they do, which more or less reflects the tone of the other slant piece stuff she does, or quotes she offers.

            Not that there are not some good points to be made, but here is the problem. She oversimplifies and uses rolled up statistics to try to make points which are in the end nonsense (especially when you break them down geographically, ie. if an area does not have wolves/coyotes, it logically doesn’t have problems related to those specific predators – that of course is a concept completely lost on her). Her approach is very much like these goofballs Molde and Smith, with their little faux scholarship piece.

            Keefover-Ring also has gotten traction in the Huffington Post online rag, and a couple other left leaning news outlets (who don’t verify substance of the material they quote), which regurgitate her slanted swill. Example: look at the link to her report to the President and Congress below:


            Now use your browser to search for the words “aircraft” or “aviation.” You will find only references to how dangerous it is for WS to use aircraft for lethal control of predators. Interesting, but much of the work WS does is around airports in cooperation with the FAA, port authorities, state/local governments for public safety. NOT ONE WORD on this. Nor is there any substantive reference to the co-op contracts which WS performs in concert with state and local government, in carrying out LOCAL objectives to control certain wildlife in urban areas or at the urban fringe. And, nevermind, for example, most of the birds WS kills are starlings, by the thousands, which create havoc with food production and aviation safety. She oversimplifies and spins everything she writes. She loves super-simple charts, especially the ones involving wolves (never plots increased numbers of wolves killed against a growing population and expanding range), or why specific wolves are lethally removed. There is a lot more there to critique, but I am afraid I don’t have time.

            Look closely, and you will see these statistical liberties and deceitful analyses and text, some is incomplete, misleading or even untrue, in some cases.

              • WM says:

                Good one Nancy, a perfect example of Keefover-Ring spin.

                Would have been nice if Keefover-Ring had included a log of how many tens of thousands of flight hours over 33+ years, for the accident frequency. Maybe even useful to compare it against other helo/fixed wing flights of a similar nature by state agencies or others for comparison. Maybe even back out the no injury or “minor” incidents.

                • Nancy says:

                  “Would have been nice if Keefover-Ring had included a log of how many tens of thousands of flight hours over 33+ years, for the accident frequency”

                  Yes, it would of been nice WM to know exactly how much taxes have been wasted to benefit a tiny percentage of the population in western states – livestock raisers.

              • WM says:

                Even a better idea, how about plotting the WS incident rate against helicopter news reporting in urban areas, or maybe cropdusting. We had an urban incident in Seattle, this past March, which took the lives of 2, a pilot and reporter, in the chopper. Wonder how many other FAA reportable incidents, including mechanical failure with no injury or minor injury, have occurred in a 34+ year period?

                • Yvette says:

                  Apples and oranges.

                  As for Wildlife Services: one name. Jamie Olson.

                  Of course, there are many other Jamie Olsons employed as government ‘Hunters’.

            • Cody Coyote says:

              … except the Nature Conservancy alone outspends all the various ” species clubs” and elite hunting lobby groups put together. For starters, before we even start parsing the federal agency budgets.

              Paraphrasing the mythihcal mark twang: “Truths, half truths, and statistics…”

    • Ida Lupines says:

      Those ka-blam! pictures again. I remember being out for a hike and walking right into a bunch of ’em.

      Playing by the rules, boys? I ask. Oh yes. they said.

  6. rork says:

    There have been many articles in MI about deer hunting being nearly impossible in areas with the most snow this year – can’t get there, or fear you can’t get out of there. Upper peninsula deer take might be astonishingly low. DNR has been blaming predators now and then too, when it mentions impacts of our very severe winter last year (and the year before).
    No doubt folks going up high out west have faced situations where you just have to bail.

    • Immer Treue says:

      Attended a presentation last night at IWC by MN DNR deer specialist. Pretty much the same as MI UP. It’s the Winter “stoopid”! In this neck if the woods, we are lucky to have 4-5 deer per square mile. Predators do not kill them all. Even with people in Ely feeding deer, which though is not illegal, is frowned upon.

      The last two winters just lambasted NE MN deer population, there just are not that many deer out there for hunters, and the knowledgeable hunters understand the concept of Winter severity. With fewer deer, wolves will starve. Hopefully with these two variables (deer and wolves) reduced, moose recovery will proceed.

  7. Scott MacButch says:

    It might have been mentioned before on this site, but Gordon Haber’s insightful book “Among Wolves” is a classic book about Denali’s wolves, and wolves in general in Alaska.

    I hope with a new governor, their might be a chance to reestablish the buffer area on the N E side of the park (near Healy,AK) which has become a death trap in the winter for park wolves.

    From one reviewer, “Biologist Haber was killed in an aircraft crash while tracking wolves in Alaska’s Denali National Park in 2009. Culled from his published articles, research notes, and tweets, combined with the reminiscences of friends and colleagues, this volume, created by Alaskan writer Holleman, is the final word on the groundbreaking research Haber conducted on the Denali wolf packs for four decades. A firm believer in the study of whole ecosystems and infamous for his exhaustive field research in the most extreme conditions, Haber struggled against the widespread fear and hatred of wolves that have determined much of Alaska’s wildlife policy. Stubbornly continuing to gather data and speak out for science-based management, Haber found himself at the center of a debate over wolves that has been accompanied by aerial hunting, gassing of cubs in dens, forced relocation, and trapping. Yet the park’s Toklat pack is comparable only to Jane Goodall’s chimpanzees as one of the two oldest-known, longest-studied large mammal social groups in the wild. This is an invaluable overview of Haber’s passionate and essential whole-system method of mammal research. –Colleen Mondor”

  8. aves says:

    Feds planning to kill 25% of the western population of double-crested cormorants:

    • Louise Kane says:

      Aves this is hard news to read. I ran into an injured cormorant a month ago on the sand flats. It was struggling in a shallow. My friend’s dog had run up to it and we knew immediately something was wrong because it was stationary. With all of us running to get the dog away from the bird, I tried to figure out why the bird was struggling and way my feet were bound up.

      Turns out the bird had a hundred feet of monofilament wrapped around i’s legs and wingst. It also had a big lure (rappala like) under its wing stuck into its side. I caught up all the line and wrapped it around my hand and then followed the bird. It was able to waddle slowly and then would rest. I started holding the line up so it would not further entangle the line in the marsh grasses or cause the monofilament to cut into its wing.

      My friends called Wild Care, a local rescue group, while I ran kept pace with the cormorant, running back and forth on the flats trying to keep the line slack enough so the bird’s wing would not be impacted and taut enough so the bird would not go too far.

      When Wild Care showed up, the director instructed me on how to cut the line while we held the bird. The wing ligaments were only superficially cut so we boxed the bird after removing the line and she brought it back to remove the lure.

      As it turns out the lure was stuck on pin feathers and had not imbedded itself. The director thought she would have the bird for several days to observe before releasing but it made such a ruckus in the raptor pen she released it early as it was healthy.

      I noted that while I was keeping pace with the cormorant on the sand flats, the whole flock of cormorants had settled some hundred yards out on the bar just inside of the incoming tide. That bird kept trying to move in between the bars in the water areas to get back into the flock. It was determined, and very aware of me and the location of the flock as well as where my friends stood to the side.

      At various intervals the bird would stop and look back at me as if it could not figure out why I was still there. I sensed that the bird really did know we were attempting to help. Over the hour or so I was tracking it, it’s actions went from frantic to cautious. I had never been so close to a cormorant.

      They are beautiful birds, graceful and elegant. They have also gotten a bad rap here and the fishermen blame them and seals for lack of fish.

      State and federal agencies might look to other solutions instead of the killing continuum they rely on to fix all human created issues.

      • Nancy says:

        + 1 Louise

        “They have also gotten a bad rap here and the fishermen blame them and seals for lack of fish”

        Countless stories here on TWN over the years, of wildlife taking the fall for our specie’s shortcomings and outright stupidity, when it comes to the planet we all share.

        • Nancy says:

          “It is here that the state’s dual mandates – protecting a threatened native fish, and

          *****sustaining a multimillion-dollar recreational fishery built around that native fish’s bête noire – collide. Says Bonnie Ellis, a biologist at the University of Montana’s Flathead Lake Biological Station, “If (Fish, Wildlife and Parks) wants to protect the largest lake trout in the lake, while at the same time reduce the population, then those two aims are not very compatible.”

      • Ida Lupines says:

        They have gotten a bad rap. I had tried to clean one in an oil spill, and sadly, the poor bird didn’t make it. But I have always thought they were beautiful since I saw one so closely. We don’t realize how our activities stress wildlife. The survival rate for oiled birds is very low.

  9. Mareks Vilkins says:


    do you know some good [text]book about Euclidean geometry (proofs)? are those ones ok?

    Euclidean Geometry: A First Course

    Geometry (McDougal Littell Jurgensen Geometry)

    • Barb Rupers says:

      Mareks, I taught geometry in high school and used a 1969 text for a few years authored by Ray C. Jurgenson and others published by Houghton Mifflin; it was by far the best book I used during 24 years of teaching at that school. I went on the internet to see if I could find out more about the last book you mentioned since it seemed to have one of the authors and found the following:

      It looks very familiar – the diagrams, the sequence of chapters, the types of questions. It was like visiting an old friend.

      • rork says:

        Thanks Barb. I wasn’t gonna be much help. I’ve seen U.S. high school text books about math where almost nothing is proved, and almost universally hate them – it’s anti-math. Given our venue, I will spare folks a long rant.

      • Mareks Vilkins says:

        thanks Barb, for reassurance – right now I’m just sifting through a preliminary list of math books (geometry + probability).

  10. Priscilla Pollock says:

    We live in Leominster Ma. Last week my husband was outside at about 8:00 pm and saw what looked like a large gray wolf walk across our backyard. He came in and told me. My husband said it was huge. A few days later my husband found some animal refuge by the stairs to our porch. I mentioned this to some wildlife people and they said it couldn’t be a wolf it had to be a coyote.

    Well last night I saw it myself. It is definitely not a coyote, it was huge. My husband came in and got me because it was back. This was again about 8:00 pm. I went on the back porch and saw it with my own eyes. It was huge, gray, whitish and silver. It was definitely not a coyote. It had some strange behavior too. It was just lying in the backyard like the sphinx facing our house just staring at us. By this time, my son Matt had joined us. We where standing on the porch (very close to the door mind you) just gazing back. It then stood up and very casually started walking back and forth from one length of our yard to the other making a point that it was watching us. We got the willies and went in. It seems to be claiming our backyard.

    We live in North Leominster and have a lot of wooded area behind our house. During the summer we could hear a lot of howling. Not yips and yelps mind you, but howling. You could hear the babies too. We didn’t pay much mind to it then, but the animal or animals are now visiting our backyard. I know if it is a wolf it is probably not alone. I am also concerned because they recently built a middle school up the road from our house. My youngest son attends there. Needless to say, I will not let my son, (who is 13) walk there or back.

    Do you know who we might contact to help us with this situation but not destroy the wolves? Is there any place that can actually relocate them?

    • Ed Loosli says:

      Well Priscilla the LAST people I would call are the local police or “animal control” or the Mass. Fish and Wildlife Dept… As they all will shoot first and ask questions later. Personally, I would keep this a wonderful family secret while you watch and observe.

    • skyrim says:

      Over 20 years ago I heard Renee Askins (Founder of the Wolf Fund) tell a group of school children that when a wild animal reveals themselves to you it is a “gift”. In all of my years, and in all of my similar encounters I’ve never thought of them as anything less.

    • John Glowa says:

      If you could set out a trail camera to try to get photos of it and send them to me I’d very much like to see them-and I will make sure they get to Jon Way. We also have an individual in Canada who will do DNA testing on large wild canid scat. Your area is not far from the Quabbin Reservoir where there is a great deal of both habitat and prey for large wild canids. Note that an eastern/gray wolf hybrid was killed in Massachusetts a few years ago. I would encourage you not to report it to Mass. wildlife authorities. They are the ones who approved killing what was later determined to be a wolf. Feel free to contact me through the Maine Wolf Coalition website.

      • Priscilla Pollock says:

        John, What is your email.



          • Susan Armstrong says:

            Priscilla, in your area a “gray whitish and silver” animal is more likely to be a wolf hybrid or a wolflike dog. Or a formerly captive wolf with genetics from western ancestors. A true wild canid in MA would more likely have a definite tawny cast to the gray. Eastern Wolf usually has reddish tones in its pelage. Just my 2 cents.

  11. Barb Rupers says:

    Priscilla Pollock
    Sounds exciting!
    Jon Way contributes on this forum and he might be able to answer your questions. He studies coywolves in the east. His web page where you can read about him and his work:
    and an email address for contacting him:

  12. Barb Rupers says:

    Sorry the last link was supposed to read:

    • Ida Lupines says:

      Wow! Thank you Ed, great article. This should not be a revelation. 🙁

    • Gary Humbard says:

      Some of the most important corridors for wildlife movement is located on private land. One of the best organizations that is working to protect private land from development is The Vital Ground Foundation which purchases conservation easements, assuring these lands will remain wild and provide viable links for grizzly bears, wolves and other species to disperse and spread their genes.

  13. Priscilla Pollock says:

    Thanks you for all your responses!

    Ed, my husband did call the Wildlife department. They said we are the only ones that have called so they won’t respond, (thank the Lord for that). We live in a large Massachusetts city, so soon; we will not be the only ones that have noticed.

    Skyrim, I thank you for your thought. I believe that all wild life is a gift. I have been blessed with many a wonders in my backyard. Foxes, rabbits, deer, skunk, wild cats, many birds, they all play in my backyard. Well, used to. They seem to be slacking off bounding through our yard around the beginning of August (2014). I heard wolf urine can scar them away.

    John and Barb, thank you for the contact:. Jon Way. I will be contacting him. I do not want these animals killed. My backyard has always been a refuge for wild life. We have a bird sanctuary behind our yard, where no on can build or hunt, so a lot of wild life enjoys some freedom to roam.

    John, I like the Idea of a trail camera but I have no idea how to do this. Remember I am a city girl living in a little piece of country in Leominster Ma. I asked my husband and he had no idea. Is this just a camera you hang on a tree? I did read about the eastern / gray wolf hybrid that was killed in Ma. The DNA came back and it was 98 % gray wolf. I’m telling you that’s what is out there. I researched how to tell the difference from a coyote and a wolf. This one had a square nose not a pointed one and it had ears like a wolf not a coyote. It was also huge.

    I had someone at one of my clients sites tell me it was walking the backyard perimeter while looking at us to tell us where our boundaries were. That is not a coyote my friend.

    I don’t want these beautiful animals killed, but there is a School they just built about a ¼ mile away up on the right hill from my yard. If wind gets out there, they are in trouble.

    I’m going to contact Jon Way. Through my research, I have found that they can’t find a set that is alive in Ma. I have a set alive and well at this moment. When it visits again I am going to take a picture of it and send it to you John and you can forward it to Jon Way. Thanks for all your help.

    • Immer Treue says:


      Yes, you would mount a game camera on a tree. All else you would require would be an SD memory card and batteries depending on the camera. All instruction come with the camera and are pretty self explanatory. Prices vary upon camera features, but figure between 100 to 150 dollars. I use a Moultrie that has been fool proof. Another friend uses Stealth cameras with great success. Hope this helps.

    • Louise Kane says:

      If this animal visits regularly, Jon may even want to use his own trail camera although I can’t speak for him.

      But as others have suggested keep a low profile about this so people don’t get hysterical itchy trigger fingers. Yvette was right, wolves are not interested in people and its very doubtful that its stalking you or any children.

    • John Glowa says:

      I don’t discount any wolf sighting reports we receive. I know that Mass. Fish and Wildlife discounted the animal in Shelburne as a dog or wolf/dog hybrid. They authorized someone to shoot it and screwed up royally as it was determined to have been a wolf. As I noted above, your area is very close to a very large area of potential wolf habitat around the Quabbin reservoir. You can purchase a trail camera for anywhere from $75 and up. Just read the instructions. They are easy to operate. We use a scent bait when we set up our cameras. You can purchase scent bait from trapper supply companies. Just google wolf/coyote scent bait. Be careful-because they are REALLY stinky!! You don’t want it on your hands or clothes. It comes in jar or bottle. I set up the camera-attached to a tree or pole, then bang a four foot tall stake into the ground about 20-25 feet away from the camera-just inside the camera’s range. I spread the scent bait on the stake-and then wait for the critters to show up. Good luck and I look forward to seeing any photos you may get.

      • WM says:

        John Glowa,

        ++They authorized someone to shoot it and screwed up royally as it was determined to have been a wolf.++

        Wasn’t this (later to be determined but unknown at the time) wolf depredating on lambs/sheep and engaged in surplus killing? What should they have done?

        • Louise Kane says:

          It also appears the farmers and wildlife managers had notice that it was a wolf….they might have worked with the farmer toward a non lethal solution before allowing the only known wolf in MA to be be killed for livestock depredation.

          • Ida Lupines says:


            Must.Not.Let.Them.Get.A.Foothold! mindset. I sometimes wonder if the Northeast would be equally as bad as other wolf states, if not worse. After all, we’re the ones that got the ball rolling, didn’t we.

        • John Glowa says:

          It’s obvious that they should have determined what the animal was BEFORE giving verbal authorization to shoot it. The state biologist saw the animal’s tracks and ASSumed that they belonged to either a dog or a wolf/dog hybrid. It’s my understanding that even if the animal was killing livestock, it was still protected under the ESA-and certainly the State of Mass. had no authority to authorize its killing. The animal could have easily been photographed and live-trapped. This was a typical case of shooting first and asking questions later. The animal was less than 100 miles from a wolf killed several years before in New York. Mass. Fish and Wildlife SHOULD have known that the animal might have been a wolf-given the number of dead wolves in the northeast and the proximity of wolf range in Canada.

  14. Cody Coyote says:

    It happened in Jackson Hole in plain view. A lone human spooked about 100 elk out of a No Hunting area near Kelly into a free fire zone along the highway . It became a shooting gallery. Noted wildlife photographer Tom Mangelsen witnessed it and said it was the most egregious act of unethical hunting and nonsportsmanlike conduct he’d ever seen. At least two citations were issued, but more are likely . Still being sorted out, and Wyo G&F not commenting yet.

    • Cody Coyote says:

      I meant to include that this was inside Grand Teton National Park and was handled b park Rangers initially. At least 8 elk killed and 25+ shots fired by about 25 ” hunters”. Mangelsen has photos. He’s been a very outspoken activist against hunting inside GTNP of late…

      • Ed Loosli says:

        Thanks Cody for the latest news from the killing fields:

        Lawsuit To Stop the Grand Teton NP Elk Hunt

      • Yvette says:

        We have commercialized killing and passed it off as hunting.

        I hear some hunters say that a large part of the hunting experience is about getting out in the natural world. I guess we can exclude all of the guys parked on the road and shooting into the herd of migrating elk.

        I hear some hunters say they hunt for the meat. What is the chance that these guys shooting into the herd need the meat?

        I suspect that most of the elk hunters are not doing it for the nature experience or for the need of meat. These guys are killing because, in their minds, it makes them feel more manly. “Oh look how much power I wield. I can kill a big animal.” What they’ve accomplished is the opposite. They come off as a bunch of inexperienced dimwitted boys salivating over their first view of a Playboy magazine.

        Maybe we should reevaluate the commercialization of killing.

        • Immer Treue says:

          The NASCARization of hunting. I believe incidents like this are rare…yet that they happen at all is befuddling. Living in the woods and getting into a tree stand to me is all about safety first, for me and the animals (no stupid shot). Then comfort (maintaining a civilized degree of warmth), followed by observing natures mood change in regard to shifting light patterns. Anything after that is a plus deer or no deer. It’s not about the killing.

          I’m just as content getting back to the cabin, warming up by the wood stove with a glass of Bushmills, and my dog beside me.

        • Ida Lupines says:

          The worst part is that nothing gets done about it, just a couple of citations issued. Probably not worth the paper they’re printed on.

    • Nancy says:

      Words fail me………..

      • Yvette says:

        What is the deal with these hunters in WY and MT? With at least two different incidents in MT where all they shot into a herd, and basically, massacred them and now this incident in WY? I’m being exposed to a different breed of elk hunter. Is this behavior and annual occurrence or is this unusual?

        • W. Hong says:

          I have read some information about this happening in other states as well over the years, I read about it happening in Washington state about 10 years ago, so I don’t think it is only Montana and Wyoming. I know it also happened many times in some areas in China a few years ago.

        • Nancy says:

          An article that tries to explain the mentality Yvette:

          IMHO, its pure laziness. Why spend days hunting the backcountry when you can find out where the elk are gonna eventually show up on their migratory route? Happening in my valley.

          Elk are migrating out and the local outfitter has two of the biggest ranches tied up. He and his “guides” spend their mornings sitting just off the road, in two or three high locations, scoping the valley. By late afternoon they know where the elk are headed and (fresh snow doesn’t help) Just a matter of placing clients for a shot. If the elk can make it to the treeline, they might have a chance.

          He’s a disgrace to his profession….

          • Yvette says:

            Thanks for the article, Nancy. As I suspect, this isn’t about experiencing nature or obtaining meat.

            This year, there’s been at least one incident where a hunter shot an elk, abandoned (emphasis mine) it, and went on to shoot another. In an incident near the Niawiakum River, a caller reported that multiple animals had been killed during a shooting frenzy. But “we could only find one and it had more holes than it should have,” Cenci said. In cases like that, it becomes extremely difficult for wildlife managers to sort out what actually happened.

            Not only is this irritating, but these people are just disgusting.

            • TC says:

              Denominators, people. You need to start thinking in terms of denominators. There are hundreds of thousands of elk hunters in the west. The vast majority of whom do not, have not, and never will behave in this manner. They are not uniformly drooling, dimwitted, personality disorder afflicted(sociopath), sexually gratified killers without morals and consciences, despite the need above (in many posts) to make them so. And they’re never going to come to sites like this to express their outrage at events like the one in GTNP when you continue to throw them under some morality bus – it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. I do not, and never have understood why some folks that post on this site spend so much time obsessing about the bad behavior of numerators and drawing wildly inaccurate conclusions about entire cohorts of the population, rather than trying to ally with the vast denominators in making positive change. I believe there are more good people than bad people across all demographic categories – the bad apples make the news and titillate some of you.

              In this case, support of the effort to end the GTNP elk hunt might be an appropriate start if that floats your boat. And there are elk hunters in WY that actually believe this would be a good thing and are contributing to the effort – they just don’t make the news.

        • Immer Treue says:

          They must be larger, more aggressive sportsmen from Canada.

        • Ida Lupines says:

          Yvette, and then they in horror post pics of elk supposedly that had been killed by wolves!

  15. Ida Lupines says:

    OK, how long are we going to humor this person? A wolf ‘staking a claim’ in the hierarchy of her backyard sounds like those Western private property types. *eyeroll*

    • Ida Lupines says:

      Every now and then we get mountain lion or bobcat sightings in suburbia also – and they never amount to anything more than Sasquatch sightings. There are no wolves in Massachusetts, and any coyotes I’ve seen are always on the run, not trying to challenge homeowners for the deed to their property, or lurking about school yards.

    • Nancy says:


      There is a good possibility that what Priscilla and her family are witnessing is in fact a wolf. My question to Priscilla would be does she have dog? Which could be an attraction to a wolf they may have set up territory in the area.

      • Ida Lupines says:

        There is not. We here in Mass (I’ll get territorial on you now) follow these things very closely and they have becomoe somewhat amusing. You out in Montana would have no idea.

        With all of the trolls who try to hit this blog, I’m surprised anyone is taking this seriously. “Pricilla’s” post (we may be hearing from John Alden too, around this time) has a very trollish tone to it, and all of the same crap we’ve heard before on other blogs – school nearby, challenging humans, sending other wildlife running)

        But I’ll look forward to hearing more, of course.

        • Ida Lupines says:

          So I’d say it isn’t a ‘good’ possibility, but a very remote one. The kind of ‘if you bet on it, you’d lose’ possibility. I’ll look forward to the trailcam photos.

      • Ida Lupines says:

        I just posted this above, Nancy? These are tall tales.

        • Nancy says:

          Why tall tales Ida? Priscilla’s home is only about an hour from the Quabbin Reservoir. The guy who wrote the article was pretty sure he and his wife witnessed a pair of wolves.

          What’s pretty obvious (from the comment section) there are a lot of people that have never seen a mountain lion let alone a wolf. And lets not forget, OR-7’s journey and there may be a wolf in the Grand Canyon now.

  16. Priscilla Pollock says:

    Well Ida, your comment was very insulting. What I wrote was very true. I have multiple witnesses. There is a wolf that did lay in my back yard on 11/18/2014 and then start to walk back and forth across my yard looking at us on the porch. There are howls coming from the back of our house. There is a new school called sky view that was recently built to the right of our house up on a wooded hill that was vacant. There is a large forest behind our house that continues through Lunenburg and Townsend. We do hear shooting from that area during hunting season. I do have deer, rabbits, skunks, feral cats, ground hogs, and other animals that venture into our yard.

    Nancy, we do not have a dog, but our neighbor does. It was barking wildly when I got home yesterday from work. It usually never barks. This could be an indication that it is feeling threaten. Ida, because of your comments, if I don’t get help with this situation, you will hear of another dead wolf in Ma. Immer Treue thanks you for the information about the camera. I have emailed Jon, Way and I am waiting for a response.

    • Ida Lupines says:

      *yawn* threats too. Somehow I knew that was coming (checking my watch, right on schedule). “It was huge”; “schoolyard nearby”, “I won’t let my 13-year old son walk alone” “claiming my backyard”. All the appropriate buzzwords, and now a threat to kill a wolf too. Are you sure you’re not Toby Bridges in drag?

    • Nancy says:

      Priscilla – a satellite map of your area. Looks like a lot of area to the west where wildlife could take up residence.

    • Yvette says:

      Priscilla, have you attempted contact with Jon Way yet? That is the best recommendation you’ve had, IMO.

      It could be possible that this animal is a hybrid that a person owns. Given your region it’s possible it’s a coywolf, too. Right now, you, nor anyone else knows, so it’s best to contact Jon Way.

      My concern is you seem to be freaking out. So, if you are indeed being honest and not a troll, the first thing to do is get your wits in order. You have repeatedly mentioned a new school. Do you know how many wolves have actually attacked humans over the course of the last couple of centuries? Very few. Do you know how many stories of ‘school children being stalked’ is mythology and hype? All of them.

      Ida, because of your comments, if I don’t get help with this situation, you will hear of another dead wolf in Ma.

      That sounds like a threat to me, which now makes two people on this blog suspect you are a troll. I hope I’m wrong. So please, stop freaking out and take care of business like an adult. You’ve already had good advice from people. Take advantage of it.

      I found this TWN article from 2011. It’s worth your time to read.

      By all means keep us updated. If there is indeed a wolf in Massachusetts then this will be covered in newspapers, so please come back and share the links!

      • Ida Lupines says:

        Believe me, nobody would be happier than me if a wolves were back. But the post borders on the familiar hysteria that I have no more patience for.

        Yvette is right. Your best bet is to contact Jon Way, who studies coywolves, and John Glowa and the Maine Wolf Coalition? Hasn’t been updated in awhile with a wolf sighting, I don’t think.

        You’ll notice on the link that Nancy and I published, the dates are quite old, and the mountain lion sightings outnumber the grey wolf sightings by at least ten to one. And there has never been photographic evidence of mountain lions either, nor news reports, and the media loves this stuff, especially on slow news days.

        But I am glad we have Eastern mountain lions, Eastern wolves, and Eastern rattlesnakes!

        • Nancy says:


          Read to the bottom of the comments. There were quite a few sightings in 2014 of mountain lions (one just a couple of weeks ago)

          Sure a few of these comments are trolls but can’t just discount them all. Besides I’m sure a call to Fish & Game would lead to a “sorry, there are no mountain lions in MA” mentality.

          As far as getting pictures? Sounds like most of the sightings have been at night, early morning, crossing roads and most lions (and wildlife in general) don’t hang around for a photo op.

          • Ida Lupines says:

            The point is, any sightings of these animals out here would be very very rare. The St. Lawrence isn’t easily crossed anymore because of widening and dredging for shipping. And if the animal did make it, he is usually destroyed (I t’ot it was a coyote! I did, I did!).

            It’s natural to be skeptical. I wouldn’t say people are trolls in the comments, not at all. I’m sure they believe what they think they saw. But people have been blessed(?) with vivid imaginations and are fearful, and may not be seeing what they think they see. People aren’t familiar with these animals, and to panic just gets the torch-and-pitchfork crowd all riled up.

            There was bobcat report too a few weeks ago:


            • John Glowa says:

              I would encourage you to read the Maine Wolf Coalition website again. Have you ever been to Ontario and traveled the road from Kingston to Cornwall? I have. There are miles and miles of rural and undeveloped areas along the north side of the road that lead south from the Algonquin Park area. In addition,the St. Lawrence River from Kingston to Montreal freezes over every winter. The shipping channel is not maintained for several months. This is a one hundred mile wide potential wolf dispersal corridor from Ontario to New York that has been used by moose, lynx and fisher to cross the river. Wolves can certainly cross the river. There is no other explanation for the gray/eastern wolf hybrids we are getting here.

      • Nancy says:

        “if I don’t get help with this situation, you will hear of another dead wolf in Ma.”

        I think Priscilla might be referring to this incident?

        • Yvette says:

          Okay. That makes sense. Man, wolves have been extinct in MA since 1840 yet this one wolf was shot and killed.

          People suck. (my most grown-up vernacular)

          • Nancy says:

            I hope if Priscilla contacts Jon Way he can weigh in. And lets keep in mind the hysterics we see in articles on here all the time by “manly” hunters when being checked out by a wolf or two 🙂

          • Ida Lupines says:

            ^^That makes it even more far-fetched, IMO. That was nearly eight years ago. And now, miraculously, there’s another sighting in Leominster, of all places. You people aren’t even from the area, and you are certain? Hardly rural farmland. It’s a troll post. If anything at all was actually seen, it’s a coyote. I can’t wait to hear what comes of this. Be sure to keep us posted.

        • Barb Rupers says:

          I agree, Nancy. I thought when reading that statement that she was referring to someone else possibly killing it, not her family.

          • Immer Treue says:

            Nancy and Barb,


          • Ida Lupines says:

            But why even go there or jump to that conclusion? And it just so happens that this person chooses to come here to report the sighting. It’s far-fetched. I know Ralph has a wonderful blog, but we are not Wolf Central yet, are we?

            • Ida Lupines says:

              Even after all of the destruction of wolves since the delisting, some of you are so naive you do more harm than good to protection of wolves. You completely disregard the fact that this person said it would be my fault if something happens, which is typical of the wolf haters. We’ve been told to shut up or else….

            • Nancy says:


              Google wolves and see how many times links to articles on The Wildlife News come up. The site IS Wolf Central 🙂 And, people come here all the time to share experiences or discuss issues.

              • Ida Lupines says:

                Well, we’ll see if the thing has legs or not, won’t we.

              • Ida Lupines says:

                You yourself informed me recently that this blog is mostly about Western wildlife and issues, and not really the concern of Easterners. It is not Wolf Central.

                But as I said, we’ll see if any proof is forthcoming. I predict not.

                • Barb Rupers says:

                  This has been wolf central for me since 1995. It is where I came to get up to date information of the happenings during and after wolf reintroduction. It contains much information regarding wolves you might find interesting even now; I still do. It is only for the past few years that this site has been in blog format.

                • Ida Lupines says:

                  Well, it’s Wildlife Central for me, but only because I have a very strong interest in the outdoors and wildlife. I found this sight reading information about the attempts at delisting wolves, and of course the final successful one. I may have found it through Howling for Justice too.

                • Ida Lupines says:

                  oops, make that ‘site’ not sight. I can’t believe that very many people follow the Western wolf situation, especially in Mass. But the anti-types are constantly finding obscure references to wolf sightings in France, Norway, Timbuktu, everywhere, and wave them around as proof of imminent threat and danger. This post has that ring to it.

                • Nancy says:

                  “You yourself informed me recently that this blog is mostly about Western wildlife and issues, and not really the concern of Easterners”

                  What?? Find me the comment Ida because while I might of said the WN site is about wildlife & their issues, there’s no way in h*ll I would of said its not the concern of Easterners. I seem to recall that was Elk who made that comment?

                  Geez, I was once an easterner and feel blessed to live where I live now (Montana)

                  My brother lives back east and on a couple of occasions, saw what I think was a coywolf.

                  “Its much bigger than a coyote Nancy” It stood on the edge of a cornfield late one night and just studied him. Kind of freaked my brother out (but he lived to tell about it 🙂 and its perhaps the same experience Priscilla is going thru and given the area she lives in, there is a real possibility its a wolf.

                  On the rare occasions I’ve seen and heard wolves, its been a unique experience me but… not so unique for the ranchers surrounding me.

                • Elk375 says:

                  Nancy you once lived in Billings? That is where I was born and grew up. We lived above Rocky Mountain College and in the early 60’s I was up on the Rims between school and dinner and walked right into a mountain lion and no one believe me, it was a lion and nothing else. It is the only one that I have ever seen. Mountain lions at that time had a bounty on them.

    • rork says:

      Consider the chance that folks with wolf-like pets may have a tendency to “loose” them. It’s not likely, but neither is any other single possible explanation. Good luck solving the riddle. Also check if during the full moon it turns into *gasp* an advertizing man.

      • Susan Armstrong says:

        Rork, I think your theory is the most likely explanation. The description of a “whitish and silver” looking animal suggests a hybrid or a captive-bred “imported” wolf to me. A photo will help answer the question. I am pretty good at identifying wolf hybrids if anyone’s interested.

        Lots of people outside of typical wolf habitat think they’ve seen a wolf. Once in a while they’re right.

    • Amre says:

      If it really is a wolf, that is very exciting, Priscilla.

  17. Yvette says:

    Oops, I italicized a section that was my statement. Dang, I hate that I can’t go back and edit.

  18. Mareks Vilkins says:

    Pentagon Review Says America’s Nukes Are FUBAR

    The guys babysitting our missiles in Montana couldn’t agree more

    don’t know to laugh or cry…

  19. Louise Kane says:

    I’ve been offline most of the last few days having to spend some time attending to the testing one deals with when you live with a chronic disease. It felt good not to read the endless stream of bad wildlife news that gets delivered to me daily.

    Today I logged on and saw this article about Sudan come up. The herds of migrating wildlife in that war ravaged, hard scrabble country are being slaughtered to feed the troops. I wonder how much resiliency do these animal populations have in the face of such severe pressures? Sudan currently has about 2500 elephants that have somehow against all odds survived. Down from tens of thousands. In a war torn country this outcome seems probable and devastating. It’s easy to be angry and point fingers. To think how can this be happening? We bear witness to a looming extinction of the wondrous African plains mammals as humans plunder, export, trophy hunt and poach them to death. And all the superpowers of the world can’t get their shit together to work out a solution.

    Then I think, thats actually not surprising. Africa presents a real challenge with its numerous and overpopulated countries and complex politics. But what excuse do we have here in the good ol’ USA. Here in the states, in the hundreds of millions of acres of public lands we have agencies green lighting killing contests, our states create individual wildlife management plans with no thought to working on interstate solutions to create wildlife corridors, to establish plans based on greater biodiversity, and almost all states view predators as vermin. Our agencies call wolf reintroduction a success story when now there are less than a few thousand wolves in three of the states that have some of the greatest acreage of public lands. The federal government turns a blind eye as the killing quotas in wolf plans are ramped up and the 5 year monitoring requirement deadline is fast approaching. To see the loss of elephants in Sudan is tragic but the pressure put on wolves and the artificially low wolf populations here is really tragic. We know better. What damn excuse do we have? We are not at war, not in dire poverty, not ignorant. Our wolf populations in the NRM are just about where elephants are in Sudan. The armies mowing down wildlife here don’t practice guerrilla warfare on each other we just allow trophy hunters, poachers, politicians and lobbyists to slaughter our wolves and other carnivores.

    No wonder so many people want to put their heads in the sand.

    • rork says:

      “artificially low wolf populations” seems to have an answer to the question of how many can fit in each place. For MI and MN I have some idea – we are near the upper limit, and it ain’t that big a number (and it will be smaller this year, just thanks to the damn weather). For WI, killing quota was ramped down not up. Territory of wolf is expanding out west. Citizens may start asking for increased wolves in “the 3 states”, or at least not much further reduction. People (e.g. ranchers) are getting better at dealing with wolves. Public officials and scientists several places (not Utah) have noted the futility in trying to knock down coyotes. I think there’s allot of bright side if you don’t get too distressed at individual wolf killings. Could it be better? Yes. Is it hopeless? Not nearly, despite Ida’s predictions that wolves would be extirpated by this date without relisting, the sky is not nearly falling. Nearly all officials and people-with-brains think wolf is here to stay, we just have to work out the details more to our liking. I am quite hopeful. We have only begun to get smart about this stuff.

      • WM says:

        Good points, rork, and we might also remind Louise her math needs a little help, too. NRM wolf population, even with the hunting seasons under way is still well over 1,000, and that doesn’t include the likely underestimation factor of up to 20%.

        • Elk375 says:

          Louise wants the federal government to take over the western state’s fish and game departments and put her on the commission.

          • Ed Loosli says:

            Elk: I would gladly have Louise Kane on a federal wildlife commission or better yet, run the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service. That would be a happy day for American’s embattled wildlife.

            • Ida Lupines says:

              I’ll second that – so far we have Ralph Maughan nominated as Secretary of the Interior, and Louise Kane as Director of USF&W. 🙂

            • Elk375 says:

              Better yet Ed, you would like to be on a federal wildlife commission and reduce western hunting eventually to nothing. American’s wildlife in not embattled it is managed for the maximum ungulate population not maximum predator population. There is plenty of western wildlife, see it every day.

              Predators are like truffles on risotto. Truffle shavings enhanced the taste, too many truffles ruin the risotto.

        • Nancy says:

          Give the vast size of the NRM WM, what with mountain lion populations, black bear populations, ungulate populations, a 1,000 wolves is nothing. And, to date, over 400 have been killed (WWP site link below)

          State agencies can’t get it right with coyotes, so why should they even think about getting it right with wolf populations? Better to adjust the numbers and just keep pooping out the tags and trapping license fees.

          • Elk375 says:

            Why can’t state agencies get it right with coyotes? Coyotes are predators with no legal protections and coyotes are not endangered, never have been and most likely never will be endangered. They have poisoned, shot, trapped and gassed several years later the population is back to where it was before.

            Coyotes are coyotes.

            • Nancy says:

              Why do you think that is Elk?

              • Nancy says:

                Not being obnoxious with that question Elk but decades of predator control (especially when it comes to coyotes) has lead to nothing more than job security and a h*ll of a lot of dead coyotes, lions, bears etc.

                • Elk375 says:

                  But decades of predator control has lead to a hell of a lot of dead coyotes, lions and bears. Currently there are more lions, bears and coyotes than in the immediate past.

              • Elk375 says:

                First of all if person owns a land, farm or ranch he/she should be able to control gophers, coyotes, etc.

                My late brother-in-law owned a large farm/ranch where the Big Horn meets the Yellowstone. After 40 years of living there he said “if you kill coyotes they will raise more pups and the population will increase then if you stop killing coyotes eventually they will reach the carrying capacity of the land, overpopulate and develop mange when cold weather sets the sick coyotes will die and they will come back in balance with more pups”. So it did not make any difference if you shot them or not, but they enjoyed shooting coyotes and selling the skins for $70 to $120 during the winters months and my nephew made his spending money in the winter trapping coyotes and bobcats.

                It is there land and they had that privilege.

                • Nancy says:

                  “but they enjoyed shooting coyotes and selling the skins for $70 to $120 during the winters months and my nephew made his spending money in the winter trapping coyotes and bobcats”

                  Elk, I believe Carter Neimeyer had the same mentality as a younger man (re: his book Wolfer)

                  Always caution when it comes to those that rule the land (whether its theirs or not) when it comes to wildlife taking advantage of our shortcomings. Even when they have the absolute right to push back 🙂

                • Elk375 says:

                  Trapping coyotes was how Carter Neimeyer paid for his first child. Carter still has the trapping bug in him. There is a well know coyote researcher in this area who trapped coyotes as a kid and still remembers the good times trapping coyotes and maybe traps them today.

                • Louise Kane says:

                  I don’t agree that I have the right to eliminate everything that is inconvenient on “my land”. I wish I never had to cut a tree, pull a weed or discourage a mouse. I understand its not practical all the time. Yet I do believe we have an obligation to share. So I leave the snake that curls up and hisses at me in my garage and let him come and go at will, we leave a messy area covered in rotted wood for the other black snake outdoors and my dog is not allowed near him, I leave the salamanders protected as best as I can and I feel really lucky to see the foxes and coyote. I can’t imagine finding it fun to kill anything and I need their skin a lot less then they need it themselves.

            • Immer Treue says:

              So, probably the best thing to do is leave them alone. If it’s not causing problems, if it’s ethical to kill (ie mange), then best left alone.

              • Louise Kane says:

                “but they enjoyed shooting coyotes and selling the skins for $70 to $120 during the winters months and my nephew made his spending money in the winter trapping coyotes and bobcats.

                It is there land and they had that privilege.”

                If you own the land and enjoy killing them then you have that right, according to Elk.

        • Amre says:

          WM, here are the gray wolf population counts for 2013-2014 for all the states that have gray wolf populations.

          Great lakes
          Minnesota: 2,423.
          Wisconsin: 658-687
          Michigan: 636
          Oregon: 64

          New Mexico and Arizona-mexican gray wolves: 83
          Total for all 3 populations:5,491.
          Yes WM, I do know of that report USFWS released in september that showed another wolf pop. estimate for later in 2014, but i’m just including ones from the end of 2013.

          • Louise Kane says:

            and Amre who knows whether they are accurate or not? There is endless debate about that. The point is to keep wolves at populations less than 2000 in states with our biggest areas of wilderness and greatest numbers of public lands is wrong, short sighted and politically motivated. It’s dark ages

            • Amre says:

              Well Louise, I wasn’t trying to show the exact number of wolves in the lower 48: I was just combining wolf population estimates from all the states. One of my main points is that it is much fewer than the populations of other species in the US. According to the mountain lion foundation, there are 24,000 to 36,000 cougars in the lower 48. There are hundreds of thousands of black bears, and even larger populations of coyotes. Compare this to just 5,491 wolves.

        • Louise Kane says:

          I specifically did not use an exact number because who has one, I don’t and neither do you. I said less than a few thousand which I think is high for MT, ID and WY. You are saying well over a thousand whats your gripe? MT, ID and WY contain more than a hundred million acres of federal public lands. To state that the NRM wolf population is well over a thousand wolves even with hunting, is hardly an endorsement worthy of repeating.

      • Louise Kane says:


        I would argue that wolf populations are artificially low. What else can you call them. They are certainly not at densities/ levels consistent with other predator species. The NRM states are working to keep them at just above numbers to prevent relisting. Didn’t Idaho state they were purposefully headed to that magic 150 number? geez those states have at least a hundred million acres of public lands. Without knowing the exact populations whether they are 1500 or 3000 in all three states, the populations could and should be much more robust.

        As you stated, MI and MN wolves were probably at their upper limits but The MN population was stable for 10 years. Why the rush to hunt especially when 70% of Minnesotans did not want a hunt.

        MI’s population was also probably nearing a stasis before the hunt, so again why hunt? Your state just voted, no hunt was wanted there either.

        Wisconsin was so aggressive they backed off only for fear of a lawsuit. They allow dogs in their hunts, wtf?
        Be interesting to see a poll of Wisconsin residents but MN and MI hunts were mandated by a disgruntled political minority. The implementation of the wolf hunts felt like a witch hunt.

        I think its hard for rational people to consider that some of the worst anti predator policies have lingered despite “science” that should be dictating a paradigm shift. I mean how long is it going to take and how many studies are needed to illustrate that predators are ecologically valuable species and that disrupting packs creates stress and instability that likely escalate the potential for predator/human conflict?

        I’d like to believe that good change is on the horizon but that seems doubtful without a lot of work and it seems even more doubtful unless wildlife agencies stop promoting bad policy for bad people.

        For every point you make that wildlife management is taking a rational turn, I see another regressive side. In the last 5 years wolves were delisted by a non germane rider attached to a must pass omnibus bill. Immediately post delisting all states rushed to hunts even when their citizen’s did not want hunts and despite relatively stable populations that were not really causing any trouble. The hunts have been designed to radically reduce wolf populations despite studies illustrating that, save for a few areas, elk populations were robust and wolf depredations responsible only for a low percentage of total loss. Hunts pushed even when non lethal deterrents make better sense and even when losses on public lands have been compensated doubling up the ranchers benefits. With this information, why pursue and allow these aggressive, ecologically damaging, unpopular, inhumane hunts.

        Likewise, JB and others are publishing studies that suggest hunting wolves and other predators may induce less tolerance for them. And we know a great deal about wolves and coyotes and their sociality and sentience. The new study just recently discussed here shows that hunting stress has the potential to create more human predator conflict than if they were managed without public hunts, may cause increased reproduction and affect the ability of individuals to survive the loss of pack mates.

        Without getting into an ethics debate, you noted that public officials and scientists noted the futility in knocking down coyote numbers, if so then why not ban these blood thirsty creepy killing contests that promote wanton waste, and inculcate inhumane irresponsible practices.

        In 2014, predators are still managed like vermin. The very use of that word, as it is used in management plans, is offensive. What animal is truly vermin?

        Nationally, coyotes are almost without exception allowed to be killed relentlessly, year round with no quotas, no size or age restrictions, no hunting method restrictions, trapped, snared, shot and killed in bounties and killing contests. Once again wolves, just supposedly recovered but with populations in the low thousands, are also added to bounties and killing contests. And the BLM permitted this with 90,000 comments against and 10 for? That is not hopeful to me.

        In order to be more hopeful, I’d like to see a big change in wildlife management. Reasonable laws including no tolerance policy for wanton waste, an end to commercialized and inhumane practices like trapping, snaring, penning, and hounding. I think wildlife managers need to acknowledge the increased effectiveness that new technology and the impact it has. I’d like to see hunting laws mirror provisions with anti abuse statutes for domesticated animals.

        In order to get the details to our liking as you suggest then good, rational people are going to need to admit that there is a dark underbelly of wildlife management that needs to be changed.

        Wildlife management needs revision. It needs to adapt and to acknowledge that our growing populations, pressures on habitat, and increased and powerful technology will require rethinking the laissez faire attitudes that currently prevail. The status quo won’t change without work. It will require acknowledging that not all hunters are rational fair chase ethical people, it will require seeing the explosion of killing contests nationally and understanding that this represents a shift away from hunting and toward mayhem. It will also mean strategizing to circumvent, the chest thumping Cliven Bundy’s, the SSS crowd, the tea party resource gobblers, the elk hunters rounding up elk in their vehicles and shooting into the herd, the trappers that trap hundreds of animals (some thousands) of many species and post them all over Facebook looking just like the serial killers they are and preventing the lunatics from running the asylum.

        • Elk375 says:


          ++, the elk hunters rounding up elk in their vehicles and shooting into the herd ++

          Have you ever seen elk hunters rounding up elk in their vehicles and shooing in the hers? All you have read about it second hand, do you believe everything you read that you want to believe.

          Last Tuesday I went hunting in the Madison Valley and got into a herd of 150 elk bunched due to the reflection of the snow and the cold my range finder was all over the place. Finally got a reading of 525 yards with a ten mile an hour wind. To far to shoot, at 500 yards a 20 inch hold over, too much. I could have shot into the herd and killed or wounded an elk, I do not do those type of things.

          Most hunters do not.

          • Louise Kane says:

            for God’s sake Elk numerous posts were just made on TWN about the creeps that did this. Thats what I am saying, keep arguing that these kinds of events are isolated, keep your head in the sand.

            • Elk375 says:

              For God sakes you were not there and either was anyone on this forum. Your head is in the sands of Cape Cod, fly out here tomorrow and I will pick you at the airport and you can see for your self. You would come to a different conclusion either way.

              • skyrim says:

                Elk I don’t have a dog in this fight but I have to be clear here. Are you denying these episodes happened, or is your commentary clouded this afternoon by that square rocks glass in front of you, and the Black Jack swirling around inside?

                • Elk375 says:

                  I am not denying that things happen that should not have happened but there is the law and there are ethics — who’s ethics. The thing to remember is that the incident in Helena with 3 game warden present resulted in 3 tickets all for trespass and no illegal hunting violations.

                  There are those that feel it is unethical to shoot at running animals, if a person is capable, which I am and I have done it many times,then is it unethical? Is it unethical to shoot at a flying bird, no, but it is unethical to shoot a sitting bird.

                  It is illegal to chase and herd animals with a vehicle but is it illegal to drive down an established road fast to get ahead of the animals which could be 400 or 500 hundred yards parallel to the vehicle — no. To go off road and chase them then it is illegal. Ethics that is up the person, it is his/her hunt.

                  Is it illegal to shoot into a herd of elk — no. Is it unethical, in my opinion it is very unethical. If you shoot two elk in the herd then it can be illegal.

                  What I question these days is the use of range finders, which I have, scopes with elevation dials, which I do not have and long, long range shooting whether one has practice or not. I am comfortable shooting to 500 yards some say that this is unethical yet there are those who will shoot to 800 yards with the latest technology.

                  It is illegal to shoot across a road or from the road right away, in Montana one only has to be off of the road right away. Therefore depending upon the Wyoming law and the incident in Jackson Hole where the hunters were near the road when they shot was it illegal or some think it was ethical.

                  It is illegal to shoot from a vehicle unless your my 90 year old father with a special permit is that unethical.

                  There is the law and there are ethics, ethics are individual where as law is for the common good. All laws must be followed and a hunter should have his/her ethical sense.

        • Nancy says:

          + 1 Louise.

        • rork says:

          Hey, I agree with changing wildlife management, but think judiciously applied power does not mean applying it everywhere. Your complaints include Bundy, tea party, facebook postings, BLM acting rationally, “rush to hunting” after 10 years, details of the method of glacial delisting, elk hunting, anguish over the use of vermin, and about 6 kinds of name calling. I don’t think those methods effective unless the goal is to make enemies, or prove that wildlife advocates are hysterical ninnies, as we are often perceived to be.

  20. Priscilla Pollock says:

    I did contact Jon Way with an email. I am waiting for a reply. I mentioned that in my last post. I thank John and Barb for the contact information.

    The comment on “another dead wolf in Ma” was not me threatening to kill a wolf. I could never kill wild life. I was referring to the gray wolf that was killed here in Massachusetts not to long ago. I would hate that to happen to this one. I am just concerned that I will not be the only one for long who will notice this.

    By the way, I am not freaking out at all. I am rather excited I have seen something so rare. I was a little angry at Ida’s insulting comment and should not have responded as such, sorry.

    I was going to purchase an outside camera, which was recommended, from Dicks or on line for Amazon but one of my clients mentioned a web cam. It will be nice to record real time data.

    I found this site by accident while researching what I saw. I came to this site for recommendations from expert on this subject and I am very thankful for the useful comments. Just to let you know, I am no troll, which I have learned is online harassment. When I get evidence in picture or video form I will post it or send the link. Thank you all for your time.

    • Elk375 says:


      You saw what you saw. Would have anyone ever believed that a mountain lion migrated to Connecticut from the Midwest unless it saw hit by a car?

    • skyrim says:

      Priscilla. Try to not be offended by negative remarks here. It might help if you understood the scepticism that permeates the mindset of many in the environmental community after so many years of struggle.
      Personally I would think a trail cam would serve your needs better as it can be placed closer to the area of activity. My security cams at my mountain retreat require constant power and observation. Trail cams that I am familiar with are better served for your purpose.
      Good Luck
      PS Any neighborhood pets should be kept close at hand.

    • Yvette says:

      I’m glad to hear, Priscilla. I misjudged your comment about the ‘dead wolf’. My apologies. One thing about me, when I make a mistake I have no qualms about admitting it.

      Some of us are wildlife advocates and we’ve become quite jaded by some of the things we’ve seen on other pro-predator hunting and wolf hating websites.

      There is a ton of knowledge on this site. I hope you do keep us updated. If you spotted a wolf in the East then it is indeed exciting. At least, for me it is.

  21. Scott MacButch says:

    Ida claimed I was a troll a month or so ago while commenting about mountain bikers – don’t get ruffled Priscilla, she likes to spear folks with it from time to time.

    If you do check the facts, the chance that any truly wild wolf killing a member of our species is next to nothing.

    There are only a very few historical records of wolf attacks in North America.

  22. Ida Lupines says:

    Well, I stand by my original assessment. The first post spoke volumes, and the backtracking does too. I’ll wait to hear what the experts have to say (if anything), and by all means, do post the pics. You’ve got me thinking of putting up a trailcam in my backyard too. So that’s a plus.

  23. Ida Lupines says:

    Yvette, I didn’t see your post about habituated wildlife still being wild or not. What do the experts say? Myself, I consider that ‘sorta’ wild, but not really wild if they have become used to people.

    Also, I’m skeptical because there was a post here the other night from a troll that wasn’t worth bothering with. The reason for my skepticism is that our names come up with some frequency over at Tom Remington’s rogues gallery. And they don’t speak well of any of us either, except for the few that may sometimes agree with their points of view. These are the types of tall tales one sees over there – worries over schoolyards and kids being attacked by wolves, etc. And no matter what article or where you can rest assured that one or more of them will always and I mean always, be on the lookout and commenting negatively about wolves. Even Scott Rockholm was there the other day. It appears to be a small but damaging little clique. Why they get themselves worked up in such a lather over an innocent creature I have no idea. My outspokenness may have gained me some unwanted attention, I’m afraid:

    • Ida Lupines says:

      And Reality22, and someone called Somsai. They’re everywhere.

    • Yvette says:

      I’m not familiar with Tom Remington’s rogue gallery. After the delisting and then wolf hunting seasons I had things pop up on my facebook feed. I checked out a few things that first year. It was an eye opener because I was ignorant of the intensity of the hatred of predators, especially wolves. I honestly did not know there were these types of hunters out there. I had always assumed people hunted to mainly supplement their meat. It was mind boggling how much people love to torture another living being, so I don’t go into any of the predator hunting or wolf hating sites.

      There are those particular wolf tales that always come with the same stories. “stalking, fear for school children’, etc. The pattern is the same to the wolf stories and it has been the same for centuries. This was covered and documented from various historical documents in the book, “Vicious: Men and Wolves in America”, by Jon Coleman.

      I do try to give someone the benefit of doubt, though. One never knows, so whatever is the best for the situation.

      • Ida Lupines says:

        Yes, that’s usually that sets off my warning bells – schoolchildren in danger of attack (they should be more concerned about the human registered sex offender living down the street), taking all the wildlife (implication being that it belongs to them), and also the ‘coming onto my land’ as if an animal can know anything about that, and is trespassing deliberately – this pos(t)er said ‘claiming’.

        I can give the benefit of the doubt sometimes, but I have seen this pattern so many times, I can’t in this case.

        We were just having the conversation on another thread about the Grand Canyon sighting, so it’s quite a coincidence. But who cares what I think? If people want to encourage this, carry on.

        • Ida Lupines says:

          Unless the poster meant ‘claiming’ as in reclaiming the wolf’s rightful place in Massachusetts and the North Woods (I like the name Vermont has, the Northeat Kingdom – that I can get on board with.

          I’ve always loved animals in general, wild and domesticated. Reading the history of the destruction of wolves in North America really affected me, and I was thrilled when efforts were made to try to bring them back. Needless to say, what’s happening today is a huge setback, despite how simply Rork sees it. Could it be better, a hell of a lot, and what the damage has been great.

      • Mareks Vilkins says:


        does Jon Coleman in his book cover Church’s support for the wolf killing?

        I’m interested in this aspect because in those earlier times Church members supported deforestation (and very likely predator killing as well)as settlers converted forestlands to agricultural ones.

        Today here in LV they often tell stories about peace of mind in the middle of forest etc but that’s how far they will go – they will not go publicly against industrial logging. Or against wolf killing, for that matter

        • Yvette says:

          Mareks, the simple answer is yes. This book came from his doctoral thesis in history. Coleman goes back to the early explorers and the early colonist settlers, and because throughout the book he blends biology, folklore and history. The folklore is tied closely to the religion.

          Coleman tells not only the historical story of the wolf in N. America, but also of the attitudes, laws, and folklore of the early immigrants. This history spreads across time and space as the continued the westward expansion, or ‘manifest destiny’. He thoroughly covers the history of Mormons as they were persecuted out of the mid-west to eventually settle in what is now Utah. (quite interesting to me) This matters because they were a particularly bloody bunch of wolf killers (and prairie wolfs as they called the coyotes), and they were quite successful at it.

          Mareks, I highly recommend this book. It helped me to understand many of the factors behind the hatred of wolves in America that began with the earliest immigrants. Do they have similar historical research in some of the European countries?

          • Mareks Vilkins says:

            Do they have similar historical research in some of the European countries?


            I don’t know how good it is but there’s one book about wolf history in Ireland


            about Scotland

          • Mareks Vilkins says:


            about deforestation process on a planetary scale I can recommend:

            “Deforesting the Earth: From Prehistory to Global Crisis” by Michael Williams


            “Anyone who doubts the power of history to inform the present should read this closely argued and sweeping survey. This is rich, timely, and sobering historical fare written in a measured, non-sensationalist style by a master of his craft. One only hopes (almost certainly vainly) that today’s policymakers take its lessons to heart.”—Brian Fagan, Los Angeles Times

            Published in 2002, Deforesting the Earth was a landmark study of the history and geography of deforestation. Now available as an abridgment, this edition retains the breadth of the original while rendering its arguments accessible to a general readership.

            Deforestation—the thinning, changing, and wholesale clearing of forests for fuel, shelter, and agriculture—is among the most important ways humans have transformed the environment. Surveying ten thousand years to trace human-induced deforestation’s effect on economies, societies, and landscapes around the world, Deforesting the Earth is the preeminent history of this process and its consequences.

  24. Louise Kane says:

    “I had always assumed people hunted to mainly supplement their meat. It was mind boggling how much people love to torture another living being,”

    Thats what I felt too Yvette
    I could not believe wolves would be delisted only to be hunted
    It was mind boggling the idea that anyone would go out deliberately to kill a wolf….
    from the time I was a teenager my friends postered their walls with movie stars, I taped pictures of the deep sea fish my dad saw, and wolves. I thought they were the rock stars of the world. I was sure there was not a more amazing animal.

  25. Nancy says:

    Nice update Ralph 🙂 Big thumbs up!

    • Louise Kane says:

      +1 I do not believe any hunting of carnivores should be conducted for all the reasons you articulate. This is a primary reason that wildlife management should be conducted on a federal level with standards set for the states to comply with. There is too much regional bias and hate of animals that seems like it might be impossible to eradicate, as the states keep perpetuating the bias with the bad carnivore policy.

    • Yvette says:

      Ditto! Plus, I hadn’t read the original.

    • Ida Lupines says:

      Possibly what I call ‘old school’ hunting (meaning for meat and all of the animal utilized and not wasted, including the beautiful trophy mounts) I could tolerate, but not what passes for hunting today. Especially what we are seeing with firing into herds.

  26. JB says:

    Not wildlife news, but a subject that comes up here from time to time (immigration). An interesting perspective and a bit of history…

    • Nancy says:

      Thanks JB. Refreshing read.

        • Ida Lupines says:


          • Ida Lupines says:

            I have to be in the right mood for comedy. I should go back and watch the other one posted, now that I am not furious over some wildlife issue and can be a little more objective. 🙂

        • Nancy says:

          Hilarious JB 🙂 Got to love the Daily Show. They bring those troubling issues to the forefront.

          • JB says:

            Yep. They’ve become masters at exposing hypocrisy in the most entertaining ways. 🙂

            • WM says:

              …or ….They’ve become masters” at cleverly distorting serious and complex issues in such a way as they seem funny and entertaining at the time – on video, for personal profit.

              The medium is the message, as Marshal McLuhan once professed.

              • JB says:

                Daily Show watchers are 3rd behind NPR and those who watch the Sunday talk shows in terms of knowledge of current events– ahead of MSNBC, CNN, FOX.


              • Nancy says:

                “…or ….They’ve become masters” at cleverly distorting serious and complex issues in such a way as they seem funny and entertaining at the time – on video, for personal profit”

                WM – I love to read. I also collect books. A few weeks ago I stopped by the “bargain basement” hosted by an organization that raises funds to support the mentally challenged in my community.

                This little organization has a building where folks with challenges can gather, take meals and can come and go either to jobs or, its just a place where they share with other “like minded” folks.

                Delighted to find a number of books by James Grisham. And while I know I’ve read all of Grisham’s books, I bought them anyway and spent the last couple of weeks re-reading them. A Grisham marathon so to speak 🙂

                Titles you are probably familiar with – The Confession, The King of Torts, The Broker, The Pelican Brief. Just finished The Street Lawyer.

                While fiction, they all have a similar ring/vein to them – corporate greed and their ability these days to sh*t on and manipulate those, less fortunate enough to be in their realm of prosperity (which pretty much covers the other 98% of our population 🙂

                A lot of other writers out there taking a stab but few get the point across like Grisham.

                So I’m glad to see shows like The Daily Show, taking aim, or as JB says “Yep. They’ve become masters at exposing hypocrisy in the most entertaining ways” Because honestly, laughter might be the only answer 🙂

                If that gets the point across…….

                • WM says:

                  Jon Stewart (this was today’s Parade, by the way) … and it is damn scary to me to know that sarcastic satirical video news (served up with the look into the camera/eye roll/raised eybrow etc) is a “source” of information for many in this country who want it served up with humor in sound bites of less than 10-20 seconds….very, very scary.

                • Nancy says:

                  WM – pretty sure Fox News (like Stewart) falls under the category of entertainment, sound bites of less than 10-20 seconds. I mean the few times I’ve watched it, its hard to keep a straight face 🙂

                • Nancy says:


                  Interesting, the contribution to Social Security was an eye opener.

                • WM says:


                  I think we agree about the role of FOX news. I don’t watch much TV either.

                  And, do remember Grisham is in the entertainment business, too, so take what you read in his books about how evil corporations work, and the legal system operates with a healthy dose of skepticism, too.

                • Nancy says:

                  “And, do remember Grisham is in the entertainment business, too, so take what you read in his books about how evil corporations work, and the legal system operates with a healthy dose of skepticism, too”


                  I’m sure Grisham has tons of “stranger than fiction” material to draw from when it comes to putting a novel together 🙂

                • WM says:


                  I actually read that one, about two years ago – well about half of it before I lost interest. Probably some lessons to be learned in police investigation from that one – when you focus on losers it can lead to erroneous results. Another incentive not to become a drunk loser in the first place. And a lesson in forensics that probably wouldn’t happen today with DNA analysis and better technique not used in the early 1980’s.

                • Louise Kane says:

                  Interesting post by WM

                  …Because it will be America’s shrinking middle class who takes up the slack on needed tax gaps to fix problems associated with an unskilled/uneducated undocumented population segment, while the uber-rich continue to accumulate wealth and political influence. We are doing that already in some states. ”

                  With republicans constantly fighting tax increases for the really wealthy and now in the majority its more likely than not that the middle class will pick up any additional cost. But that assumes that immigration reform won’t improve the situation and that once granted legal status immigrants might remain ignorant, uneducated drains on the system, when quite the opposite is often true.

                  Of the many immigrants I know, went to school with or now work with my husband they are model citizens. They work insanely long hours, work hard to educate themselves and have a civic pride thats lacking in most Americans. One my best friends in law school,and his family a Jamaican man, typified the immigrant experience I am familiar with.

                  Rudy’s father came here in his 30s. He worked long hours in a garage, ten years later opened his own business. In the interim, he brought over his family members one by one reuniting them at great personal cost.

                  His business prospered, his children prospered. The children became a skilled electrician, lawyer, doctor. My friend’s father was so grateful to America he became a civic leader. He sponsored a mentorship program for black youth, contributed to the local schools and on a personal note was really really kind to me as a broke, working ,overtaxed, law student and single mother.

                  Likewise, the Jamaicans working with my husband, despite their cultural differences, are honest hard working skilled people who love being here, and love this country. This has been our experience when working around the world. There are just as many hard working honest intelligent people elsewhere as there here, in fact Tom often prefers working with non locals. They are grateful for work and don’t act like lazy entitled disgruntled non performers.

                  You wrote,
                  “But what would you know about all of this, living in Latvia.”

                  better watch out! I wonder if Mareks took you up on that who would be schooling who. His quality posts and knowledge of US and foreign policy is admirable!

                • WM says:


                  Sorry I don’t have access to the full paper in the second source cited: However this is from the Abstract: “The paper argues that illegal immigration has a positive impact on the US economy; although illegal immigrants impose a fiscal cost at the state and local levels, this cost should be addressed by efficiently allocating resources between the federal and state governments.++

                  Sounds to me like more taxes to cover shortfalls that are being picked up by border states or other preferred migrant destinations – NY, WA, VA, PA, WA, OR, just to name a few. Of course, nobody wants to talk about societal tradeoffs that come with an enriched diverse culture meld.

                  As for the first paper cited, by Grizwald at CATO, it was done in 2002, well before the big push of illegals from the southern border, which was double the annual in-migration he cites, until the economy downturn. So, his 8 million illegals and 250,000/year coming in is in 2014 12-13 million, and 500,000 year coming in. Might also be interesting to see how the NAFTA analysis and our relationship with Mexico (even its own internal tensions) compares some 12 years after writing of the paper.

              • topher says:

                Stewart didn’t bother to vote. Kinda difficult to take him seriously.

                • topher says:

                  Just checked to add a link and discovered that he now claims he did vote and was only joking. Still pretty hard to take seriously.

                • WM says:

                  I have always found it very hard to take Stewart seriously. His contemporary sarcasm gets too much in the way of understanding what is really going on in the news. Would love to quiz him on a lot of topics that go a bit deeper than getting a laugh for profit. Oh wait, I guess I already implied that in an earlier post.

                • JB says:

                  Funny– just logged into Facebook and saw the following:

                  “My great grandfather did not come here from Ireland to see this country overrun by immigrants.”

                  Oversimplification? You bet! A truthful illustration of Americans’ hypocrisy? Yep. Fits there too. And let us not forget that those “original” immigrants legally killed off (or otherwise removed) the immigrants that preceded them. (But I’m sure that’s oversimplifying a “complex issue” as well?) 😉

                • WM says:

                  Parade magazine (an insert in many Sunday national circulation newspapers) just had as its cover story none other than Jon Stewart and in the title the “fake” news. Very balanced article inside, but still emphasized his role is ENTERTAINMENT not journalistic reporting of the news. Some of still like the real stuff from newspapers or more learned on-line sources.

                  Immigration – JB, your assumption is that immigration policy should not change. Immigration that at one time was good for a young and growing country, just might not be anymore, especially since there are strongly attractive safety magnets which draw some to the US. Seems to me in grandfather’s time if you came here you would not be guaranteed free health care for the term of a pregnancy, new kid gets rights of birth, which now apparently accrue to parent to keep them here, and then there are food stamps, and other forms of assistance. Example, an illegal immigrant neice of a next door neighbor who has no job skills, just popped out 3 kids over the last eight years (2 different fathers who are no longer around). Now we have four people dependent on state and federal government aid ALL because of a very bad immigration non-decision. We will be carrying this burden until majority age for these 3 kids, and well, the mom, they just keep trying to place her in jobs she can’t perform (doesn’t want to learn new skills/language either.).

                • JB says:

                  That’s funny, I don’t see where I’ve made any such assumption. In fact, i fully support efforts to reform our immigration policy. Rather, I was commenting on the legitimacy of those who celebrate the “lawful” immigration of their own ancestors, while ignoring the fact that their ancestors’ success came by way of the murder and displacement of the prior immigrants to North America.

                • Mareks Vilkins says:

                  Fear vs. Facts: Examining the Economic Impact of Undocumented Immigrants in the U.S.


                  Opponents of undocumented immigration have argued that undocumented immigrants are a social and financial burden to the U.S. which has led to the passage ofdrastic and costly policies. This paper examined existing state and national data and found that undocumented immigrants do contribute to the economies of federal, state, and local governments through taxes and can stimulate job growth, but the cost of providing law enforcement, health care, and education impacts federal, state, and local governments differently. At the federal level, undocumented immigrants tend to contribute more money in taxes than they consume in services, however, the net economic costs orbenefits to state and local governments varies throughout the U.S.

                • Mareks Vilkins says:

                  it seems that WM is letting his frustration about the demise of the US middle-class out against Latino immigrants. It is understandable as WM was chasing his dream to become a member of the middle-class all his life.
                  However, the middle class is destroyed not by powerless immigrants but by the superrich 0.1%.

                  But it is irrational to expect that WM will harp on/against them as it was exactly the way how he realizeded his dream – by looking over his shoulder to see what the folks who matter are doing.

                • Mareks Vilkins says:

                  5 Facts About How America Is Rigged for a Massive Wealth Transfer to the Rich


                  A recent posting detailed how upper middle class Americans are rapidly losing ground to the one-percenters who averaged $5 million in wealth gains over just three years. It also noted that the global 1% has increased their wealth from $100 trillion to $127 trillion in just three years.

                  The information came from the  Credit Suisse 2014 Global Wealth Databook (GWD), which goes on to reveal much more about the disappearing middle class.

                  1. Each Year Since the Recession, America’s Richest 1% Have Made More Than the Cost of All U.S. Social Programs

                  2. Almost None of the New 1% Wealth Led To Innovation and Jobs

                  3. Just 47 Wealthy Americans Own More Than Half of the U.S. Population

                  4. The Upper Middle Class of America Owns a Smaller Percentage of Wealth Than the Corresponding Groups in All Major Nations Except Russia and Indonesia.

                  5. Ten Percent of the World’s Total Wealth Was Taken by the Global 1% in the Past Three Years


                  see the sources in article

                • WM says:

                  … however, the net economic costs orbenefits to state and local governments varies throughout the U.S.++

                  Yeah, leave it to a couple social work academics to tell us what the “facts or myths” of the net cost/benefits and economic impacts of an unknown number of illegals in the US. Note where there is no break out of cost for federal incarceration of illegals as compared to the general prison population; no accounting for portion of remittances from illegals(that is money going out of the US, which runs at about $50B/year), then no breakout of the costs to taxpayers (federal/state) from the children of illegals, who are US citizens by birth, but still need assistance of some sort. What a crock of horse shit this paper is.

                  I would like to see a thorough economic analysis that accounts for all variables, including the substantial impacts which will be imposed when illegals who stay then become dependent on taxpayer assistance when they are no longer in the work force ie. what do you do with a seventy year old illegal lettuce/grape picker and spouse who now become a social obligation in old age? If they contributed to Social Security under a false number, they won’t be able to get benefits, but they will likely get them from some other source when the time comes. What is the net economic cost/benefit? These are the questions that need answers. And, do consider corporate America loves more consumers for their goods, whether it is Huggies, big screen TV’s, gasoline, or the many things you can buy at Walmart or a fast food joint. It is all about consumers, and boy does the US Chamber of Commerce love consumers. Who would ever want to remove up to 20 million consumers from the US economy?

                  I don’t think we have begun to comprehensively understand the economic impacts of illegal immigration, and it sure is not helped by hack scholarship like the article you link to, Mareks.

                • WM says:


                  ++it seems that WM is letting his frustration about the demise of the US middle-class out against Latino immigrants. ++

                  I would agree the issues are related. Why? Because it will be America’s shrinking middle class who takes up the slack on needed tax gaps to fix problems associated with an unskilled/uneducated undocumented population segment, while the uber-rich continue to accumulate wealth and political influence. We are doing that already in some states. But what would you know about all of this, living in Latvia. Come on over, and I’ll give you a tour of Eastern WA, while schooling you about huge social/economic changes there in the last 20 years, or so, including the petition to change a street name in one larger town to “Cesaer Chavez Blvd.”

                • JB says:

                  “I would like to see a thorough economic analysis that accounts for all variables, including the substantial impacts which will be imposed when illegals who stay then become dependent on taxpayer assistance when they are no longer in the work force…”

                  Why assume only costs? What about the benefits that “illegals” who stay provide when they become productive, innovative working members of society? Or is it your position (assumption) that illegal immigrants only come with costs…?

                • Mareks Vilkins says:


                  MYTH: Immigrants come to the United States for welfare benefits.

                  FACT: Undocumented immigrants are not eligible for federal public benefit programs, and even legal immigrants face stringent eligibility restrictions.


                  The tax payments of now-undocumented immigrants would be significantly greater if they had legal status


                  MYTH: Passing the immigration bill will result in millions of illegal immigrants becoming citizens and relying on welfare programs.

                • Mareks Vilkins says:


                  illegal immigrants are not the cohort with greatest purchasing power , so if they are sending their money abroad – then they still have less money to spend on US consumer goods

                • WM says:


                  Clearly you know absolutely nothing about Walmart stores ($450 billion in annual sales), their retail product offerings , including groceries, and most of all their typical customer base in the smaller cities and towns they serve, often agriculture, forestry and mining. Everybody has to eat, and there is a pretty big core of consumer goods that nearly all folks can’t go without (pun intended to invoke the consumer product – toilet paper, Huggies, other hygiene products); others like cheap beer and wine also get a fair following at the local Walmart.

                • WM says:


                  Yes, NET costs and benefits, and to whom they accrue. One area is net profit to some employers who color outside the lines, while passing on the external/internal costs to others. My favorite is the roofing contractor who hires illegals, and does not pay workers comp., liability insurance, SSI, unemployment insurance and a host of other costs that the roofer with legal employees and coloring within the lines incurs.

                • JB says:

                  I don’t expect this will change anyone’s mind (give what amount to extremely entrenched positions), but here is a recent attempt at what WM asks for:

                  “If we exclude these immigrants from the calculus, however (as domestic policymakers are naturally inclined to do), the small net gain that remains after subtracting US workers’ losses from US employers’ gains is tiny. And if we account for the small fiscal burden that unauthorized immigrants impose, the overall economic benefit is close enough to zero to be essentially a wash.


                • WM says:


                  One more silo type analysis. The author’s assumption is that in- and out migration will essentially ebb and flow with the need for an unskilled labor force. Congress just needs to make it easier to be documented. OK, I’m with that part. But, I’m not so sure about aspects he does not discuss. Nothing on remittances; not much of any detail, anyway on impacts to assistance programs, except to say its small when aggregated up for the US economy. No discussion of socio-economic dynamics of a high number of illegal immigrant workers or the attachments they make while here that keep them here. He does directly acknowledge the educational deficit, but no discussion on economic impacts of when those who stay can no longer work in the low skill jobs that US businesses want them in. Again, there are externalities – some individual states apparently absorb – while the US, according to the author, sees only a minor impact on the US economy. Wonder how Los Angeles County and the CA school system feel about this guy’s conclusion, as well as those who have to pay for the services this new and growing population requires. See, that is the short-coming, nobody wants to look at the issues comprehensively over a longer planning or impact horizon, say 15-20 years.

                  Also strikes me the Board of Trustees of MPI also tells of the leaning of that think tank, as well.

                • JB says:

                  I don’t know what to tell you, WM. I’m looking through Google Scholar, and having trouble finding anything that says ‘send all them bastards back’. Here’s a recent analysis from the Cato Institute — a libertarian think tank:

                  “Legalizing Mexican migration would, in one stroke, bring a huge underground market into the open. It would allow American producers in important sectors of our economy to hire the workers they need to grow. It would raise wages and working conditions for millions of low-skilled workers and spur investment in human capital. It would free resources and personnel for the war on terrorism.”


                • JB says:

                  Here’s another that concludes there is a net positive effect:


                • Mareks Vilkins says:


                  they are not doing any ‘hack job’ – rather you are the one who is having a tantrum. Again.

                  1) $50 bn number includes remittance by legal workers

                  2) Mexico gets ~$25 bn in remittance (from all countries)

                  Salvador,Guatemala,Honduras ~$10-12 bn

                  3) the average size of the remittance is ~$340 per month out of average salary ~ $ 1-1.2K
                  for 11M illegals (not 20M)

                  4) Seattle and Oregon are ‘sanctuary cities’ – a sanctuary city is defined as a city that follows certain practices to protect illegal immigrants; these include – cities that do not allow municipal funds or resources to be used to enforce federal immigration laws, usually by not allowing police or municipal employees to inquire about one’s immigration status

                  so, why they do this? to intentionally destroy middle-class in WA & OR?

                  5) when illegals return back to their home country they have only few thousand dollars – so the major part of their money stays in the US economy

                • Mareks Vilkins says:

                  But what would you know about all of this, living in Latvia. Come on over, and I’ll give you a tour of Eastern WA, while schooling you about huge social/economic changes there in the last 20 years

                  thank you for your hospitality WM, but why should I fly over to WA and pollute atmosphere, in the first place? only to quarrel with you on face-to-face level? what we would do there – to go out and visit some local immigrant trailer [both armed with sticks, no less]?
                  not exactly my idea of fun.

                  by the way, I have a copy of “The Atlas of the Pacific Northwest”

                  The “Atlas of the Pacific Northwest” has been respected for nearly fifty years as the standard reference book on Washington, Oregon, and Idaho. This new edition has been completely revised and updated to include the most recent information in an easy-to-use format. In addition to over 200 insightful maps, graphs, and tables, the “Atlas” contains authoritative essays by leading experts on topics ranging from climate to tourism, from land use to ocean resources.

                  The “Atlas” is a unique resource: an invaluable reference tool, an excellent teaching aid, and a handy introduction to the character of the region.

                  No other single volume provides more comprehensive and up-to-date information about the natural environment and human activities in the Pacific Northwest. The new edition documents recent growth and change in the three states. It helps us to better understand the past and to plan for the future.

                • WM says:


                  This is, for others, a little old and off topic. But let me just respond to your remittance fact assertion. We agree that some is from documented workers (and by the way Wells Fargo Bank does most of those transactions and never asks whether someone is an illegal when they do transfers for a fee. WFC makes millions off those transactions, by the way all over the US, and there are proposals to tax the transactions from what I hear). You cite the official remittance numbers, but where do you think the drug cartels sell their product and where do you think the money all along the distribution system goes? All of it goes out of the US economy, and back to Mexico or South America.

                  You mention “sanctuary” that is another term for some cities/counties who do not participate in the federal “Secure Communities” program. Read more here:

                  Seattle does not participate much to the dismay of the King County sheriff, and Seattle police, which are at odds with their respective elected councils. I have even exchanged emails with the Sheriff about this discontent. The rationale, as I understand it, is that those who are illegal are afraid to come forward with domestic abuse claims or report crimes for fear of being deported, even if they are not identified in the federal criminal data base. Meanwhile, Eastern WA counties participate in the program. So much for federal oversight and compliance in this area.

                  As for my invitation to show you Eastern WA, we could spend some time with one of my hunting partners, a police detective who deals with this stuff on a daily basis. We could also park my car along the Yakima River waterfront trail and take a long walk while I tell you about the community I grew up in, and the negative changes that have occurred in the last 20 years, and why I don’t go back there much anymore (nor do a lot of other people). It became and still is a hub for illegal drug distribution (some illegals by the way are engaged in this business), and of course, heroin is on the increase in use, if the Seattle Times newspaper is correct. If we are very lucky the car won’t have been broken into when we return. After dark, well we just wouldn’t take that walk.

                  I doubt very much anyone (especially the federal and state governments) knows how many illegals there are in Eastern WA, in places like Moses Lake, Othello, Ellensburg or Wenatchee, or in the small towns of Western WA, including the communities of Forks, Aberdeen and Raymond. Look on your Atlas for those towns. And, thanks for the tip, I may just buy one.

                • WM says:


                  A little more background on the heroin use, and black tar from Mexico …article is from 3 days ago (think about how it gets here for distribution):

                • Mareks Vilkins says:


                  I’ve expected that sooner or later you will make reference to your police buddies – so I will return to you some stuff from Chomsky

                  The Drug War Industrial Complex


                  How Goes the “War on Drugs”?
                  An Assessment of U.S. Drug Problems and Policy

                • Mareks Vilkins says:

                  Chomsky, Noam. “Drug Policy as Social Control.” Prison Nation: The Warehousing of America’s
                  Eds.Tara Herivel and Paul Wright. New York: Routledge, 2003. 57-59. Print.



                  Top 5 Ways Obama Punked the GOP on Immigration; and the 2016 Campaign

                • Mareks Vilkins says:

                  about drug money laundering:

                  5 Outrageous Revelations from Matt Taibbi’s Takedown on HSBC’s Drug Money Laundering


              • Louise Kane says:

                Immigration and gun ownership and use are long overdue for reform. The objections to reform on either based on the presumption of rights (or lack of rights as in immigration) where the rationale/justification for either is out of context in today’s world.

                I remember how offensive it was the first time I heard that corrupting slogan started by the Citizens Committee for the Right, and later coined by Charlton Heston and the NRA, (I’ll give you my gun when you pry (or take) it from my cold, dead hands”.) I wish Thomas Jefferson, John Adams or Thomas Paine could weigh in on today’s gun ownership issues. I wonder what their take would be today? The amendment that was drafted in 1791 had relevance then, but in a stable democracy of close to 250 years, what would the rationale be? How would they react to the Cliven Bundy and McLaren types that advocate violence over rule of law, and the disgruntled sociopaths, drug dealers, and criminals that use guns, rifles and automatic weapons against citizens and wildlife.

                AS for immigration, the waves of immigrants who built this country have always been discriminated against. But seems like the same people who love their guns the most ,have the least compassion for the immigrants that harvest their food, clean their homes and do the dirty work. I see them hiding behind their religiosity and look the other way when the tired, poor, and wretched seek refuge on the very shores that they or their descendants were lucky enough, a generation or two ago, to have stepped onto.

              • Louise Kane says:

                WM we agree on one thing
                social services for unregulated child bearing
                But I think the cost should be borne by all parents

                lets say everybody gets one child (like the old Chinese system)
                after that instead of a tax break parents pay increased taxes for each child after one (immigrant or not)
                tax breaks for children doesn’t make any sense for me except for higher education. More people put a great burden on resources, if you choose to have more than one then you should pay more for the schools, waste disposal, increased consumption of natural resources etc that your progeny costs.

                Probably not popular with republicans or democrats but the incentives now should be to procreate less rather than more.

                That would take care of the common go to bitch about neighbors unrelenting child procreation.

                less people, more space, more everything.

                • Nancy says:

                  “lets say everybody gets one child (like the old Chinese system)
                  after that instead of a tax break parents pay increased taxes for each child after one (immigrant or not)”

                  +1 All for this system Louise!

              • Yvette says:

                I’ve spent considerable time living in Pasco, WA between 77′ and 82′. I lived there. We lived on “A” Street, so I am (was) quite familiar with the latino population demographics in Eastern WA because we were smack in the middle of it. There has been a large population of latino/hispanics in that town for a long time.

                It was in 83′ or 84′ when there was a huge pushback against ‘illegals’. I don’t remember if La migra rounded up most of the ag workers, but whatever happened agricultural businesses were left without labor. It was so bad that they were busing high school kids out to pick onions. My oldest niece and nephew worked picking onions. That plan didn’t work out very well, though. My sister called me laughing because most of the high school kids that thought they were going to work were dropping out at about a 1/2 day in to the work.

                What do you have against Cesaer Chavez? He was a hero. He championed human rights. What is it that you have against human rights?

                Displaced anger isn’t going to help the middle-class. It just distorts reality. America will continue to go in circles over “illegal immigration” until we become a democracy vs. the plutocracy we are now.

                The rich and powerful that truly run America are playing a game of 3 card Monty on you and many others. For them to stay in power and for their corporations to earn as much as possible they must keep us peons in conflict. Conflict and illusion is imperative to for their con-game to work.

    • Yvette says:

      That was interesting. For me, I’ve always found it odd that people stated their ancestors came here legally. I always felt: “No, they just came, took over, and displaced or killed the people that were here.” But I have ancestors that immigrated at some point. I’m 1/2 Native American and 1/2 White, but I know so very little about my mom’s (White) side of the family. All I know is her maternal side was French and the paternal side was Irish and English.

      I think people tend to forget, or they conveniently ignore, that Mexico once extended far north of the current Mexico/American border. There are many Hispanic people here that have always been here.

      • Mark L says:

        I agree Yvette, my native ancestors came East from Texas (part of Mexico) to escape oppression.

        • Ida Lupine says:

          It’s sad commentary isnt it, that just about everybody’s ancestors came here to escape some kind of oppression/maltreatment of their home country – only to turn around and inflict it on other people and wildlife.

          I didn’t want to say this – but Jon is a nice Jewish boy who doesn’t use his real name, but an Anglicized stage name. Would you call that hypocrisy?

          I am looking forward to his new film ‘Rosewater’ – it looks very good.

          Ro-ark (that’s a nod to Nancy’s John Grisham novels 😉 ) – you can’t get much more hysterical ninnies than the Little Red Riding Hood crowd.

          • Mareks Vilkins says:

            It’s sad commentary isnt it, that just about everybody’s ancestors came here to escape some kind of oppression/maltreatment of their home country – only to turn around and inflict it on other people and wildlife.

            How the Irish Became White (Routledge Classics)

            ‘…from time to time a study comes along that truly can be called ‘path breaking,’ ‘seminal,’ ‘essential,’ a ‘must read.’ How the Irish Became White is such a study.’ John Bracey, W.E.B. Du Bois Department of Afro-American Studies, University of Massachussetts, Amherst

            The Irish came to America in the eighteenth century, fleeing a homeland under foreign occupation and a caste system that regarded them as the lowest form of humanity. In the new country – a land of opportunity – they found a very different form of social hierarchy, one that was based on the color of a person’s skin. Noel Ignatiev’s 1995 book – the first published work of one of America’s leading and most controversial historians – tells the story of how the oppressed became the oppressors; how the new Irish immigrants achieved acceptance among an initially hostile population only by proving that they could be more brutal in their oppression of African Americans than the nativists


            Not Fit for Our Society: Immigration and Nativism in America


            Covering the earliest days of the Republic to current events, Schrag sets the modern immigration controversy within the context of three centuries of debate over the same questions about who exactly is fit for citizenship. He finds that nativism has long colored our national history, and that the fear—and loathing—of newcomers has provided one of the faultlines of American cultural and political life. Schrag describes the eerie similarities between the race-based arguments for restricting Irish, German, Slav, Italian, Jewish, and Chinese immigrants in the past and the arguments for restricting Latinos and others today.

  27. Louise Kane says:

    Woodland caribou, Alberta’s bad wolf policy scapegoating wolves as they clear cut and set aside more lands for extractive industries

  28. Ida Lupines says:

    I think people tend to forget, or they conveniently ignore, that Mexico once extended far north of the current Mexico/American border. There are many Hispanic people here that have always been here.

    Yes. On the same topic, I really enjoyed the President’s speech on this last night – I felt it came from a deep, sincere place and that he has passion for this subject.

    But on the other hand, I worry that our natural resources are finite and won’t support human continual growth and demands, not to mention wildlife pushed into smaller and smaller habitats, forever.

    • Ida Lupines says:

      Not to mention those awful border fences that are going to interfere with wildlife movement and migration. I think on our borders, we need to accept that they are more fluid, plus the culture is lovely.

  29. Gary Humbard says:

    Fairly significant downward trend of grizzly bear deaths in GYE due in part to bear proof food storage boxes in campgrounds. With ~1,000 of the great bears in the GYE, its time to de-list grizzlies in the GYE recovery zone so that USFWS resources can be used to work on the recovery of grizzlies in the Bitterroot, Cabinet-Yaak, Selkirk and Northern Cascades recovery zones.

    • Kent Nelson says:

      Not so fast! Delisting will further isolate those “islands” of bears. Delisting of Grizzlies should not occur until the various populations can exchange genes. CONNECTIVITY IS THE KEY TO DELISTING. If the Greater Yellowstone and the Northern Rockies don’t connect up with Cabinets, Selkirk, Cabinet-Yaak, (and I wish, the Northern Cascades) those “island” populations of Grizzlies are toast from lack of genetic diversity.

      I might add that the grizzly population numbers don’t add up as well as IGBST says they do.

    • Ed Loosli says:

      Gary Humbard:
      Please don’t be a sop for the US Fish & wildlife Service and the hunting/grazing industries that rules them… You well know that if the Yellowstone grizzly bear is de-listed, the three states now engaged in trying to reduce wolf numbers by killing them (Mont., Idaho, and WY) will do exactly the same thing to the grizzly bears. And scientifically, they are still Endangered throughout their range and of course, throughout their historic range.
      As for USFWS neglecting the Bitterroot, Cabinet-Yaak, Selkirk and Northern Cascades, this has more to do with lack of political will to do more for the grizzly than it does in any over-concentration of effort in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem.

  30. Nancy says:

    Not sure how often the webcam updates but the highway isn’t just for people 🙂

  31. Nancy says:

    Interesting parallels between indigenous human life and wildlife.

  32. Yvette says:

    Hydraulic fracturing has been approved for 10,000 acres in the George Washington National Forest, which is better than the original 2011 draft plan which would have allowed drilling in any of the 1.1 million acre NF.

    The problems posed by fracking are multiple.

    + The large amount of fresh water needed in the fracking process. In the Marcellus Shale that is about 4 million gallons of water per well.
    – Where will the O & G companies get the water for the fracking process in the GW National Forest and how will that impact wildlife?

    + The disposal of wastewater.
    – 20-40% of the water used comes back as flowback (the water or produced water.
    – Where does the wastewater go?
    * Some is trucked offsite to wastewater treatment facilities where it is released back into streams and rivers after treatment. It is supposed to meet specific TMDLs.
    * Large, lined, earthern holding ponds. The open air holding ponds pose a particular threat to birds and are potentially threats for large spills.
    * Injection wells. Injection wells have been shown to be the cause of the recent rise in earth quakes in Oklahoma. Arkansas passed legislation a few years back that didn’t allow for any more injection wells, so Oklahoma accepted their wastewater and built more injection wells for disposal.
    * Transporting the toxic wastewater to another state for disposal, or transporting the wastewater to a treatment facility. All poses a risk to humans and wildlife.

    What are we doing? The plan to allow fracking in the George Washington NF is being touted as a win since it limits the operations to only 10,000 acres vs. the 1.1 million acres that was originally planned. This is not a win. It’s not a win for humans. It’s not a win for water protection and conservation, and it sure isn’t a win for wildlife.

    If the politicians in the Western states that promote the state takeover of all federal lands is ever successful this is what we will see. We may not be able to stop what they do in the national forests but we must do whatever it takes to keep them out of the national parks and the wilderness areas.

  33. WM says:

    Not really wildlife news, but this article tends to show the economic complexities of producing a crop – cocoa – and the jobs refining and making products that humans use on all continents. An emerging taste for chocolate in China is, in part, fueling a shortage (maybe along with some climate change). Growing populations throughout the world will have similar impacts as demand increases for refined products, expanded consumer tastes from different cultures, and per capita consumption for finished products increases. This cannot be good for wildlife, because it means more land will be taken from habitat to grow or extract the raw materials that go into them.

    And, here you thought chocolate was a benign indulgence – and watch price climb in the not too distant future.

    • Ida Lupines says:

      Reminds me of palm oil. That is just ridiculous – killing off tigers and orangutans and driving them into extinction so that people can have that cheaper ingredient in their junk food and other non-necessaries.

  34. Yvette says:

    Another interesting piece in the NYT. It’s a short piece about the challenges faced with natural resource management, or lack of it, and the different approaches countries have taken.

    Thomas Fridman, the author, also mentions the new documentary, Virunga. If you have not yet seen it you must. It’s on Netflix. Incidentally, the Virunga Park Manager, Emmanual de Merode was ambushed while traveling alone earlier this year. He was shot multiple times. Luckily, he survived, but the NYT’s piece said two Virunga Park Rangers were killed last week. E. de Merode is a Belgium prince. It is encouraging to see someone use the status and money they were born with to dedicate and risk their life for something more important. de Merode seems to be one of those people. Really, the documentary, Virunga makes you feel like you are in there with them. Well done, and you will come out with nothing but respect for de Merode and the park rangers that risk their lives to protect the remaining African wilderness and wildlife. There are so few mountain gorillas left.

  35. Immer Treue says:

    The first half if the MN wolf season is over.

    A week’s respite, and the 2nd half begins, with the addition of trapping.

    • Louise Kane says:

      You know Immer I can barely look at this
      early season
      these terms seem hard to reconcile with the living breathing animals that are killed
      I’ll never understand how anyone could get up in the morning and get their kicks by setting out to kill a wolf. It just freaks me out
      I’d feel like I received the greatest gift just to see one. Knowing what I do of their families and how they live its just fkcd up to allow hunters to trophy hunt them.

      • Ida Lupines says:

        Ugh. Something is very wrong with that cold, indifferent terminology. ‘Going forward’, I’m only reading articles that notify me when the killing is done for another year – not how ‘well’ it is going and how they have met their ‘objectives’. Anyone connected with this farce is disgusting to me.

      • Yvette says:

        +++ Louise. It is repugnant and so far out of my realm of thinking that I’ve been unable to wrap my brain around how anyone gets enjoyment from trapping, or killing for contests. Further, they spread their ‘joy’ all over the internet with pictures of them posing with the bloody dead victim.

        I will never comprehend how what is happening right now in WI and other states. It is legal and just accepted by an unknown number of the population. I do not understand how such deranged actions are legal, and I am far from being a passive or squeamish person.

        Those people are the equivalent of Mexican drug cartels, but their heinous actions are perpetrated on wildlife instead of people.

        • Louise Kane says:

          “Those people are the equivalent of Mexican drug cartels, but their heinous actions are perpetrated on wildlife instead of people.”

          and too few laws exist to protect wildlife
          that has to change

      • Immer Treue says:


        I think you’ve known me through the cyber world long enough that you could conclude, that I’d eat here there be no wolf hunting and trapping, trapping in particular.

        In the “real” or some might coin the surreal world, I think it’s here for the long run. Humans are omnipresent on the landscape. Two severe winters in a row hammered the deer population. So many deer starved and the wolves could manage to find a small%. So few deer this past Spring, livestock depredations almost doubled (more on that later). The fact is, if 50% of wolves hunted/trapped are pups as in years past, there would be, and still will be, and awful lot if starvation. The word compensatory comes into play again.

        I’ll go out on a very stout limb and predict the wolf population will be down from last year in the winter count, not from hunting, but more from starvation…in particular if the winter continues how it has began up here.

        • Immer Treue says:

          How in the world did rather turn into eat here?

        • Louise Kane says:

          Yes I have known you long enough to understand your stance on trapping, snaring and hunting wolves. You might be right that its here for the long run but I can continue to hope and work toward a time when hunting carnivores and other wild animals for trophies will be one of those things “wow people really did that” issues, like smoking in public, or shunning aids patients, gay bashing or strange fruit. Its going to the right political timing and atmosphere, and huge marketing campaigns and grass roots efforts to illustrate how off/wrong managing species like wolves with trophy hunting is. I admit its a discouraging process.

          Also like to hear your take on livestock depredations doubling. Also wonder if that might have something to do with the second year of “harvesting” wolves and their response to that pressure. I’m reading in some studies there is a correlation to greater depredations in hunted populations of carnivores.

          Not so nice to think of any animal starving but I think I feel better about natural processes taking there toll then incessant negative human tinkering of those systems and the creatures in them.

          chuckling about the rather eat. The auto spell feature in most software creates some very interesting twists.

          • Louise Kane says:

            rereading my last post and seeing some of that auto sp check craziness!

          • Immer Treue says:

            Louise and all,

            Interesting data out of MN and wolf/livestock depredation. We learn as we go, and information may lead to better prevention, rather than dead wolves. In a mid 1980’s study, Mech and Fritts found a correlation between severe winters followed by low livestock depredation. Rationale, deer were in severely weakened state, thus easy for wolves to catch. Sure enough, after the prolonged winter of 2012/13, wolf/livestock depredation was down. Dan Stark said it had nothing to do with hunting, and everything to do with winter, thus supporting Mech/Fritts.

            However, last years bitterly cold and snowy winter really put a hurt on deer. Livestock predation was up this year. Why? The answer is too few deer after two tough winters, so wolves moved in on livestock. What is interesting, the last time we had two tough winters in tandem, 1995/96 and 1996/97, the same thing happened. Wolf depredation on livestock skyrocketed after the second winter.

            Hopefully, something can be implemented on this information. The random killing of wolves with an increased wolf harvest would not make sense, as how would one know which wolves would choose livestock? Farmers and stockmen might be able to implement more non-lethal methods in deterrence.

            Another part of the puzzle that Shivik relates to in The Predator Paradox that could decrease both death from above and on the ground.

            • Louise Kane says:

              Thanks for posting that Immer. Interesting to see the patterns hold true, cold winter = low depredation
              two cold winters = increased depredation

              still wondering the impact of the hunt though. Possible that the wolves, already weakened by two years of hunting stress, coupled with the cold successive winters influenced increased predation as well.

    • Louise Kane says:

      and those miserable lousy traps that should have been outlawed a hundred years ago.

  36. Ed Loosli says:

    “What It Takes To Kill A Grizzly Bear” – Doug Peacock

    Doug Peacock lays out the reasons we must fight “de-listing” of the Yellowstone grizzly bear and explains why the U.S. government, against all reason and science, wants to turn the grizzly bear over to the states of Wyoming, Montana and Idaho.

    • Ida Lupines says:

      We can’t allow what’s happened to the wolves because of delisting to happen to grizzlies.

      despite Ida’s predictions that wolves would be extirpated by this date without relisting, the sky is not nearly falling.

      Rork, I may not have gotten the timing exactly right, but I think we can see that wolf hunting is slowing down dramatically, after only 3 years. It is just not going to be a sustainable practice, and most people find it extremely distasteful in the modern era. Hunting seasons are proceeding extremely fast and DNR and F&W offices are rushing to keep up with decreasing quotas, despite lies assurances from hunters that ‘wolves are hard to get’. Hunters are now relying on the foolproof method of trapping to ensure success.

      Kinda makes you wonder what the purpose of this exercise in futility was, anyway. Just misinformation and predjudice. Politics has decreed this, and DNR and F&W employees are just going along, trying to make it look acceptable, or else be replaced and the decks stacked with people on boards who are know nothing of science, and have a special interest in hunting and trapping, and livestock.

      Getting this genie back into the bottle is going to be very difficult, with hunters already making threats about reduced quotas, and ignoring DNR and F&W rules. Now we’ve got not only poaching, but legalized killing in addition. Hunting hasn’t stopped poaching. Delisting doesn’t mean hunting should automatically follow, if the goal was the recovery of an endangered animal. Stupid, stupid decision, and one that will be difficult to make right again. If we haven’t learned this and are going to do the same thing to grizzlies, I don’t know what to say.

      • Ed Loosli says:

        You wrote, “Delisting doesn’t mean hunting should automatically follow” – and that is so very true.
        The classic example of this is the Bald Eagle, which has been “delisted” and it still cannot be legally hunted.

        Unfortunately for the wolf and the grizzly bear delisting does and will mean hunting authorized by the states of Wy, Mt and Id as they have already said this is their plan for the grizzly, and we already know what they are doing to wolves.

        • Ida Lupines says:

          From the Doug Peacock article:

          According to the Goal Tribal Coalition [, the Eastern Shoshone and Northern Arapaho of the Wind River Reservation are especially concerned about delisting because the State of Wyoming has identified the Wind River Range as one area from which they intend to extinguish the grizzly. The explicit intent of Wyoming Game and Fish is to see the extinction of the grizzly bear in the Wind River Mountains, including the territory of the Shoshone and Arapaho. The Reservation is sovereign Indian land, and the grizzly is a sacred animal to these tribes.

          ????? Why would the F&G want to do this? It just boggles the mind.

          • Ida Lupines says:

            Also, while I support immigration up to a point – before we start inviting more people, don’t you think we ought to make restitution to those people we took this land from?

            At some point, our resources are going to be finite. I don’t think it is reasonable to expect them to go on indefinitely, and that in years to come 10-13 billion people are all going to have a modern standard of living (translation: Western standard) without worsening climate change and the planet going on ’tilt’ and at the expense of other life on the planet. How do we reconcile this? People may have a ‘right’ to it – but it just isn’t realistic. I don’t want to see wildlife sacrificed for more billions of humans.

            Yes, my ancestors were immigrants; but that was an accident of my birth. I didn’t ask to come here, and nobody asked me to. I might have wanted to stay back there. 🙂

    • Ida Lupines says:

      Yes, thanks Ed – this is a beautifully written piece too. I can’t help but think “Let Them Eat Moths!” when I read about their food supply in jeopardy, and in our zeal to delist them we appear unconcerned. 🙁

  37. Nancy says:

    Very informative read Ed. Thanks for posting it.

  38. Ida Lupines says:

    I’m glad Immer that you are interpreting these figures because I just cannot read them anymore. Although starvation isn’t the best outcome, it’s the natural way of things – we have to be careful not to project our feelings about it onto Nature, and that humans can do better than Nature. We can’t. Our sphere of influence is on ourselves only, and many times even then we are wrong. Nothing goes to waste in Nature. I’d prefer that to being killed by a grinning fool or maniac and having it posted all over the Internet, with an untrue rationale as to why.

    • Nancy says:

      Interesting Elk. Reminded me of a documentary I watched (can’t recall the name – filmed in Yellowstone) where a grizzly following a wolf pack around and would take over their kill. The wolves (of course) were tolerant, so not surprising that grizzles would follow hunters for a piece of the action.

  39. Kathleen says:

    “Suncor takes big step to protect workers and bears”

    Suncor = Alberta tar sands mining corporation

    Excerpt: “Titchener (a bear safety expert) said she’s been impressed with the response from companies operating in the oilsands to wildlife safety.

    “I thought it would be harder, but everyone has been really open and has said, ‘No, we don’t want to shoot bears. If you have ideas on things we can do, we’ll do them,’” she said.”

    I have an idea. Get the hell out of their habitat with your life-destroying, earth-destroying industry.

  40. Ed Loosli says:

    “Returning Gorillas To The Wild” – VIDEO

    An wonderfully moving video from the Aspinall Foundation. I met John Aspinall about 20 years ago on his estate in England and saw the captive low-land gorillas he wanted to take back to Africa to their ancestral habitat. Most everyone thought he was crazy, but after I met him and his family, I knew they could do it. They secured thousands of protected acres and this moving VIDEO shows the results. It goes to show you what having the Aspinall passion, money and big hearts can do.

    • Ida Lupines says:

      My goodness, that was heart-wrenching. :’)

      We’ve been so cruel and heartless to our fellow creatures.

  41. Nancy says:

    It was expected:

    “The grand jury had nine white and three black members. It met 25 times and heard 70 hours of testimony from 60 witnesses and three medical examiners.

    In Missouri, grand jurors don’t have to be unanimous to indict, as long as nine of the 12 agree on a charge”

    Why wasn’t the jury made up of 6 whites and 6 black members?

  42. rork says:
    “But hunting participation increased by 9 percent from 2006 to 2011, the latest U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service’s national five-year survey found, and wildlife officials around the country suspect that it’s local food connoisseurs — or locavores — partly helping to level it off.”
    I’ve been eating good things lately, and thank my foraging mentors, as well as my gardening ones.

  43. Jeff says:

    Not sure if this made it, but the wolf on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon is a female from the northern Rockies
    Too bad they won’t take a bachelor Lobo from the southside and let him loose in the general area.

  44. Jeff says:

    Not sure if this made it, but the wolf on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon is a female from the northern Rockies

    Too bad they won’t take a bachelor Lobo from the southside and let him loose in the general area.

    • Nancy says:

      Thanks for posting this Louise! An intimate picture of a family on the move 🙂

      • Louise Kane says:

        I must have watched this 20 times since it was sent to me. I was thinking today, as I was with my family safe and eating too well that these and other wolves deserve so much better than they get since they lost federal protection.

        • Ida Lupines says:

          Thanks Louise –

          I love the one who seems to be acting as lookout at the back of the pack!

    • skyrim says:

      I’ve got lots of footage of Wolves in Yellowstone but none as dramatic as this. And they’re just trotting down the road……
      Thanks Louise

  45. Immer Treue says:

    Happy and Safe Thanksgiving to all TWN contributors and readers!

    • Nancy says:


    • WM says:



      Incidentally, my wife bought me a coffee this windy morning at a neighborhood coffee place, while we were out walking the dog. The vendor had a bottle of Bushmill’s (and Bailey’s) on the counter for patrons, at no charge. Thought of you.

    • Ida Lupines says:

      Same to you Immer, and to everyone at TWN, hope you’re all enjoying your day.

      A Bailey’s coffee and a slice of pumpkin pie does sound good –

      • Ida Lupines says:

        Has anyone seen this PBS documentary? I may have posted it last year, but I love it every year –

        My Life As A Turkey

        • Yvette says:

          That is a good one, Ida. Pretty amazing how he bonded with those wild turkeys.

          Haha, now I’m craving a Bailey’s and coffee, but I’m in a farm house with non-drinkers way off in the Kansas prairie. Great thing has been the loud, happy yips of the coyotes. Too bad I saw a flier advertising a coyote calling contest set for Saturday. These coyotes sounded like they were having a huge party the last couple of nights.

          Happy Thanksgiving all.

  46. W. Hong says:

    As I now have moved to the United States, I will be having my first Thankgiving dinner with my friends, I look forward to trying turkey, which I have never had before and my friend told me that will be having pumkin, peach and mincemeat pies, I don’t know what a mincemeat is, but I am looking forward to trying it. As a person who came from another county, it will be a new type of day for me. I was excited to watch a parade on TV this morning, it was fun. I hope everybody has a nice day.

  47. Ed Loosli says:

    “French Farmers Cry Wolf Over Sheep Killings”

    The more things change, the more things stay the same.

    • WM says:

      ++The more things change, the more they stay the same.++

      Another interpretation is that, indeed, there were factual underpinnings behind the oft quoted cautionary agrarian European fairytales and parables, leading to “unjust persecution” of wolves.

      • JB says:

        You bet! It is unambiguously clear that the “cautionary agrarian European fairytales and parables” were factually correct… at least insomuch as they depicted wolves as killing sheep. Unfortunately, that isn’t really insightful or useful information; yet, the news media persists in telling the same story. If it bleeds, it leads–even if it lacks insight, importance and novelty.

      • Ida Lupines says:

        Yeah, loosely based. Today, these stories, with some creative license taken in their telling, no longer apply in the modern world. If anything exemplifies an unnatural condition, it is humans persisting in introducing livestock against the laws of nature.

        • Ida Lupines says:

          So what to do? It seems either find a way to live with them, or wipe them out entirely. Wiping them out entirely is unethical, but that’s never stopped humanity before. All of our needs are ‘more important’, so I don’t see a hopeful future for any wildlife, especially with all this talk of compromise in conservation and environmentalism. It really is sadly comical, because humans have already taken the lions’ share of just about everything on the planet, so what is left to compromise? Where will it all end?

    • Ida Lupines says:

      All the right credentials, I see. 🙁

      • Elk375 says:

        What are the right credentials? If one studies the MTFWP’s meeting agendas, approximately 40% to 50% 0f the agenda is real estate matters: land purchases, easements, grazing leases, future acquisitions of land either purchased or donated and budgets.

        Only about 50% is wildlife related. This man seems to have the knowledge to do the job. For the last 30 years he has been involved with raising funds for acquiring key wildlife lands. The acquisition of small land parcels that provide access to large parcels of public lands is going to be one the most important aspects of wildlife commissions in the coming years.

        • Ida Lupines says:

          The articles sums up the important aspects as guns, wolves and grizzly bears.

        • Nancy says:

          “Only about 50% is wildlife related”

          Sorry Elk, but IMHO, this guy might have all the right credentials when it comes to “managing” (killing) wildlife for the small percentage that hunt them (re: the grinning idiot photo of him with a trophy Bighorn) but has little to offer those (who account for a much bigger percentage) that come to enjoy and photograph wildlife.

          He’s probably been “rubbing elbows” with Otter for awhile 🙂 and both are predator obsessed.

          Really curious about his statement as to why WY has a big population of antelope but Idaho doesn’t. Development, fencing, cattle, ag, maybe?

          • Ed Loosli says:

            Sorry Elk:
            This guy’s words alone disqualify him for representing Idaho’s living wildlife: Clezie says, “The biggest thing is to represent sportsmen… Wolves have caused turmoil for sportsmen.” He said. “We’ll never get rid of the wolves, all we can do is manage them. It’s an important issue for hunters and non-hunters such as ranchers.” Clezie also cites the grizzly bears in the Yellowstone Ecosystem as another important conservation issue in Idaho. “Grizzlies were managed very well, but they’ve expanded into other areas, where other domestic animals serve as a tasty morsel,” he said.

            *Clezie is all about “managing” wolves and grizzlies the only way he knows – by killing them.

        • timz says:

          According to the Idaho Senate in their rejection of Ms. Hurlock they are,
          “This lady is not qualified,” state Sen. Jeff Siddoway, R-Terreton, told the Senate. He said Hurlock lacked the necessary “passion” for hunting and fishing to represent the interests of Idaho sportsmen.”
          Never saw any mention of those other 40-50% duties.

        • JB says:

          “The biggest thing is to represent sportsmen,” he said. “But we also need to manage wildlife as effectively as possible.”

          Actually, as a trustee of the state’s wildlife, your obligation is to all of the state’s citizens. It’s really disheartening (and a sign of the political times) to see someone celebrated for disenfranchise the majority of the constituency they have been appointed to legally represent.

  48. Nancy says:

    Big business/ corporate gain and just another example of fine tuning (herding) our species 🙂 in the right direction (spending, at a lower speed, whether you’ve got the funds, or not)

  49. Nancy says:

    Good place to wander around in:

  50. Immer Treue says:

    Where did the tread go that dealt with cancellation of the predator derby? JB and a couple others had some comments I wanted to use for future reference point.

  51. Barb Rupers says:

    Immer, I looked in my saved file on TWN and it gives me a “404!” error on my input for that post. Perhaps this will help: Ken Cole | November 25, 2014 at 3:48 am | Categories: B.L.M., Coyotes, Predator Killing, Press Release, Western Watersheds Project, Wildlife News, Wolf Hunt, Wolves | URL:

    • Barb Rupers says:

      Nope, it didn’t work.

    • Barb Rupers says:

      Nope, it didn’t work.

      I did find this at the Western Watersheds site in the comments:
      Lynne Stone: The headline is wrong. The Derby is not cancelled. The event organizers say it will go on using Forest Service lands and private. They (Idaho for Wildlife) also defiantly say they can’t control where people hunt. I wish people would stop posting this press release with the inaccurate headline.

  52. Mareks Vilkins says:

    video: Vilki Ķemeru nacionālajā parkā / Wolfs in Kemeri NP

    a little background:

    in this NP hunting of wildlife was prohibited till 2011 when The Nature Conservation Agency’s director illegally established hunting districts for State Forest Service’s “special clients / friends”.

  53. WM says:

    Not wildlife news, but about newer “dark money” in politics, and the recent effect to push money to R’s (though both parties and their big money backers are to blame). See Senator John Tester’s (D-MT) take on it, with an eye toward fixing some of the damage done.

    • Nancy says:

      “People can express their free speech — that’s the way our process is set up,” Renfroe said. “And I don’t see where you’re going to change the system any time soon.”

      “It matters so much, because we have no idea what politicians are doing for that money,” said Sloan, who predicted that every presidential candidate in 2016 will be boosted by a secret-money group”


      “Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth”

      Abraham Lincoln

      Seems not to be an accurate desire in politics today.

  54. Ed Loosli says:

    No matter what Sen. Jon Tester (D Montana) says, it is all just talk. I have tuned out Sen. Tester ever since he authored the infamous “Senate Rider” that took away Endangered Species status for the gray wolf in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming and the Eastern parts of Oregon and Washington. He is “persona non grata” in my book. And yes, President Obama signed the bill that the wolf- death-rider was attached to, so he is also to blame.

    • Cody Coyote says:

      Obama does not know where Wyoming is, and is quite dim about Idaho and Montana as well. He does know Colorado because money comes from there, it’s a Blue State, and he accepted his presidential nomination at the convention in Denver. It hurts me to say this since I campaigned for the guy in ’08 and voted for his twice, but Colorado aside, Obama knows nothing and cares nothing about The West. We are not in his playbook.

      The Grey Wolf of the Northern Rockies became politicized to an extent not fully known or actualized by westerners. Nowhere moreso than Wyoming’s wretched Senator John Barrasso , who held up the nomination of Dan Ashe to assistant director of Dept. of Interior and was to be in charge of wolves and all things ESA. Barrasso was an unholy terror behind the scenes and pretty awful in front of the national news mike and Fox news vidcam on issues related to the conflict between Dept of Interior and western resources and extractive industries. His hatred of the ESA and love of cattle and hydrocarbons is beyond words.

      What Obama probably heard when any Western issue came up was probably something along the lines of ” you really aren’t going to let a few packs of wild dogs hold up your policies and appointments out in Wyoming are you ? “. I’m sure someone close to Obama or even O himself gave the word from the White House to break the logjam with appointments, and ordered USF & WS to capitulate to the likes of bald Wyoming Governor Matt Mead and buzzcut Senator Tester. So we ended up with bad plans and a probably illegal budget rider . Illegal because the Tester rider specifically stipulated that the forced delisting of wolves could not be challenged in Court. When is any law above Judicial review, ever? I’m sure that ugly little silver bullet is still in the cartridge belt . Budget riders are the worst form of pork or policy making, inserted nefariously so that larger more important items can pass.

      Like you, Ed, I have also cast Jon Tester into the abyss of lost dreams. He, too, showed promise, but fell to Washington DC’s unique political predator-prey relationship

      • Ida Lupines says:

        Ouch. That really hurts to read. You summed it up well.

      • Yvette says:

        I don’t know the particulars of the politicians in WY and MT, but I think you’re spot on with President Obama. He doesn’t know nor care about the West. (maybe he does care but his actions don’t show that. They show he is out of touch with the West). Like you, I voted for him twice and I like him for the most part. He has, however, been a huge disappointment when it came to conservation and wildlife.

        Last year I had an eye opener about people’s basic knowledge regarding cattle and conservation issues in the west. It was in an environmental problem solving class, a required class in the graduate program I’ve been in and my last class. The professor is a smart guy, a chemist that ended up working as the head environmental manager for one of the major airlines. We had a problem presented from the text that dealt with open range grazing and the damage it does to the land and water. I was shocked that only me and one other person in the entire class knew anything about open range grazing on public lands. This professor didn’t know anything about the issues in the west, or the significance of public grazing leases. When he thought 320 acres was a large amount of land I thought, “Oh, crap, this is going to be a wasted requirement of a class”. He is from Boston and definitely an industry guy. I’ve had him for three classes and he is a great chemistry instructor and great environmental manager, but the problem solving class was not his forte. I was, however, shocked at the lack of knowledge on western state conservation and land management issues by others in the class. We’re in Oklahoma and even though we don’t have a large amount of public lands I thought more people would have had more knowledge about western conservation issues.

        My best guess is that more of the populace has become urban and haven’t had much exposure to non-urban issues. Perhaps our urban conveniences and concrete world has left many people out of touch and simply bewildered by Western conservation issues… my professor from Boston and President Obama. They are city people and that is all they’ve ever been. My opinion is there are many people that not only are unfamiliar the issues of conservation in the West, but also lack the capacity to relate to, or grasp the significance of those issues.

        • Nancy says:

          I seem to recall Obama was the first presidential hopeful (2008) who even bothered to make a stop in a western state like Montana.

          Guessing he just didn’t grasp the ongoing and troubling issues out here in the west (when it came to the environment) given the overwhelming challenges (and advisors) that needed to be addressed after the Bubba Bush Years.

          But as we all know (or should know by now) its not about the people and issues, its about lobbyists and lining politician’s pockets and setting up for the next election.

  55. Nancy says:

    “Scientists say a key strategy has been maintaining genetic diversity that has resulted in a greater number of sockeye with better survival skills, resulting in more fish returning to Redfish Lake”

    Hmm…Now where have we heard that echoed before? Course it only seems to apply to “our” food sources 🙂 and not other forms of wildlife like predators, who compete for the same food sources.

    • Ed Loosli says:


      Red State / Blue State Divide On Traffic Deaths.

      The freedom to drive fast and die (or kill others…

    • topher says:

      The difference in wind resistance at higher speeds results in greater fuel consumption which equals more fuel taxes. When Idaho recently changed to 80 mph there was some fool on T.V. telling us that they studied Utah and saw no increase in the number of accidents but he made no mention of numbers of fatalities.

      • skyrim says:

        Speaking from experience:
        I drive 80 percent of I-15 regularly through Utah from Salt Lake to the south west corner of the state.
        90 percent of the traffic travels, and has traveled, 80 mph and faster for the 6 years I’ve made the trip regularly.
        During heavy traffic situations if you tried to travel the speed limits with a safe distance between cars, you’d be backing up.

        • Nancy says:


          Went thru Utah from Salt Lake to the south west corner of the state and it was scary 10 years ago, traffic wise, can’t imagine what its like now.

          Still doing 50 to 55 in my neck of the woods (til I get on I-15, where I bump it up to 60) but honestly, I could really give a sh*t who I piss off 🙂

          The Canadians I’m sure will be happy about an increase in speed limits since they (in a really short stretch) fly by me and often end up in the local ticketed part of the law enforcement docket every week come the spring, summer, fall months, heading south and then north.

          • Nancy says:

            And to follow up – can’t understand how anyone fortunate enough to live in areas (like Montana) that aren’t over run with subdivisions, urban sprawl, traffic etc. would be in a big hurry 🙂

    • Louise Kane says:

      Montana, big sky, big die
      motorists and wildlife
      jeez what is wrong with Montana legislators?

  56. Peter Kiermeir says:

    U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Proposes Declaring African Lion Threatened

    • Yvette says: is a pseudo non-profit that functions with funds from the uber rich right-wing. Heartland is supposed to be a think tank, but is really a right-wing propaganda .org.

      Now the Heartland think-tank is expressing opinions on decisions of listing international endangered species. Heartland’s far right slanted views are evident in the writing of the linked article.

      Although African lions are found all across the continent, nearly 70 percent of the lion population exists in ten major strongholds. Human settlements and farm expansions are encroaching on habitat, putting livestock in closer proximity to lions. According to the FWS, lions’ natural prey are also hunted by humans, diminishing the animals’ wild food supply. This results in lions killing more livestock and humans killing more lions in retaliation.

      The author conveniently fails to address the rapid rate of African Lion population decline or the multiple factors that effect lion populations.

      Look at the facts regarding the dire situation for African Lions. Species do not decline at this rate because of lions being killed by African indigenous people killing them because of livestock predation. I just loved how Carducci furtively laid blame on the African Indigenous people rather than address the real factors.

      Next, Alyssa Carducci addresses the dire situation facing African elephants.

      “Science shows harvesting mature males that are not head-of-a-pride or breeding males, and preferably six years old or older, has no long-term impacts on a population. If hunting is stopped in Tanzania and Zimbabwe, it could be the death knell for lions. Without hunters and hunting concessions, there is no money for anti-poaching efforts and no motivation for local communities to tolerate lions,” Carter said.

      First, there we go with the use of the word, harvest. Is that like a harvest or a kill the animal harvest? That word used in the context of killing animals is only to diminish the truth that what is happening is the killing of a living being. I don’t care if it is industry standard. It is used for the purpose to divert the unpleasant image of a bloody dead animal.

      “Science shows….” Science? What science? How about some citations? How junior high-ish of the author, but then again, look at the target audience of Heartland supporters.

      “The ban on importing Zimbabwe elephant ivory will have a negative effect on the population, because local villagers will not tolerate destruction and will remove elephants,” he said.

      What planet does this Heatland author live on? There were no references to the 1980’s ivory wars when over 700,000 elephants were slaughtered. (no, they were not harvested) When CITEs placed a ban on ivory in 1989 and the demand for ivory plummeted. The populations rebounded, but in 1997 pro-ivory countries petitioned CITEs for a partial lift of the ban to allow Zambia and Tanzania to sell their stockpiles of ivory. This supposedly one time sale would diminish poaching for ivory. The opposite is what has happened. Now poaching is costing the life of one elephant every 15 minutes, and the price of ivory is so expensive it funds rogue armies of terrorists. That is only the monetary value and doesn’t address the intrinsic value of elephants or the PTSD now affecting the herds and orphans as a result the poaching. Nor does Carducci address the intelligence of elephants, or the family structure of the herds. I’d gamble that most elephants are smarter than the followers of Heartland.

      Carducci ends this article by defending canned lion hunts as a way to reduce pressure on wild lions. Sounds similar to Ed Bangs’s quote, “A little bit of blood satisfies a lot of anger”. Well, that worked out well for American wolves, didn’t it? So we’re supposed to believe that breeding lions so a trophy “hunter” can satisfy his bloodlust by shooting him/her in an enclosure will help wild African lions. How about trophy hunters just stop “harvesting” wildlife? Especially, bred to be hunted in an enclosure “wildlife”?

      It is stultifying how every last thing, every living being, boils down to blood, money and politics.

    • Kathleen says:

      Reminder: The comment period is open and 384,950+ comments have been received thus far. The US Fish & Wildlife Svc. proposes to list the African lion as ‘threatened’ while continuing to allow trophy importation by American trophy hunters under the 4(d) rule. Consider putting your two or 20 cents in:

      “Living wild species are like a library of books still unread. Our heedless destruction of them is akin to burning the library without ever having read its books.”
      ~John Dingell, lead author, ESA

      • Louise Kane says:

        listing the species without a ban on importation

        why do they bother?

      • Ed Loosli says:

        I commented via the USFWS site to list the African Lion as “ENDANGERED” rather than “Threatened”, and also to NOT allow the importation of any dead lions in whole or in parts into the United States.

        That said, I don’t think we will get anywhere regarding the conservation of rare species like wolves, grizzlies, wolverines, greater sage grouse, bison, etc. until Dan Ashe resigns or retires as Director of the USFWS. Dan Ashe’s goal is to not list any new species no matter what scientists say, and at the same time his other goal is to get any currently listed species off the list as quickly as possible, even if the species is not actually recovered (wolves, grizzly bears for example).

    • Ida Lupines says:

      Haven’t they done this yet????? What’s the holdup?

  57. Salle says:

    This is interesting news…

    Lone Wolf Traveled More Than 450 Miles to Grand Canyon, DNA Confirms

    • skyrim says:

      The news on this cannot get to me (and others) fast enough. Yet I wonder if no news is the best news.
      In the back of my mind I see a pair of red-necks cruising the Kaibab with a couple cases of Keystone in their lumpy old Chev pickup, rifles in tow, seeking their undeserved 20 minutes.
      [Good hearing from you Salle. Hope that you are well.]

      • Salle says:

        Thanks, Skyrim. I was pretty sure this was a northern Rockies wolf. I do wonder which pack it came from. Should hear about that before long.

        After posting this I noticed the original date of publication and wasn’t sure if it’s further up the page than I had searched.

        I’m around, just have less time to be online.

        Have a good winter everyone.

  58. Mareks Vilkins says:

    We need a new law to protect our wildlife from critical decline

    Critical to the protection of the natural world are regulations: laws which restrain certain activities for the greater public good. Legal restrictions on destruction and pollution are often the only things that stand between species and their extinction.

    Industrial interests often hate these laws, as they restrict their profits. The corporate media denigrates and demonises the very concept of regulation. Much of the effort of those who fund political parties is to remove the regulations that protect us and the living planet.

    European environmental laws account for less than 1% of the costs of regulation to business: the lowest cost of any of the regulations he investigated. “However, businesses perceive the burden to be much higher in this area.”

    So if these crucial directives are vitiated or scrapped, it will not be because they impede business, but because they are wrongly perceived to impose much greater costs than they do.

    • Salle says:


      The way I read that is: …the costs are perceived to be more costly in order to maintain the tried and true complaint that anything which regulates business is, therefore, impeding profit margins and will result in higher monetary expense to consumers.

      It has driven the delay and demise of many an environmentally sound policy for decades, they are just amping up the volume once again for effect. Fear mongering is a specialty in that sector and “we’re going to take more of your money to pay for this” ploy usually works.

    • Yvette says:

      It’s being attempted in a couple of countries.

      Probably, the most well known is Bolivia’s Mother Earth Law.

      Ecuador has also granted rights to nature.

      Notice the close association to the Indigenous peoples of those countries who place less value on the ‘free market’ than do most of the world in our current growth at all costs philosophy.

      For long term vision, I think if humankind is to save itself we will have to address extending rights to non-humankind.

      • skyrim says:

        “Until we stop harming all living beings, we are still savages”
        Thomas Edison

      • Louise Kane says:

        Yvette thanks for posting
        I also thought i remembered that Costa Rica banned trophy hunting

        yes new laws are needed to protect the future. Corporate resource extractors are greedy and base. US companies often fully understand the environmental cost of their “harvest”, they just don’t care about doing the right thing or putting money into new technology.

        Their lobbies work hard against any regulations, just as hard to eviscerate existing regs, and they promote and advance short-sighted, stupid, destructive policies.

        Their campaigns are geared at getting people to vote against their best and long term interests.

        Legislators seem to be equally corrupt. I think since about 14 years ago when GW started his term, politicians have been trending toward minimizing and ignoring environmental issues. The excuse has been because the economy was in shambles.

        The real shame of it is that environmental health and economic progress should be issues lumped together for the long term overall prosperity of the US, and the globe. But resource extractors and their crony legislators will have none of that. They focus on marketing strategies that pit environmental health against economic growth.

        The corporate lobbyists dummy up the public with misinformation, grandstanding and fear mongering. They cover up the rape and pillage pretending the actions taken today will not come back to bite them or their own progeny in the proverbial ass. The only way to reign in the devastation is through laws that mandate protection.

        somehow one responsible, honest, charismatic, politician that is willing to look at the big picture, must exist.

        I’m disgusted by the political process in the US, especially so since the Citizens and McCutcheon decisions and the rise of the tea party. But I’m most disgusted by the Democrats allowing their liberal, environmentally and socially progressive ideologies and policies to be marginalized by the far right.

        I used to think I knew what the Democrats stood for, now I am not so sure. It’s unfortunate that the public can’t trust candidates from either party to vote for their constituents and to make rational decisions.

        I’m not sure i can think of one candidate that really would excite me or that is willing or open to taking politically difficult stances, well maybe two. One won’t run and the other is not even a contender. I wonder that the lot of us just trudges along like cattle toward the slaughter house without even the slightest hint of a stampede to escape impending doom.

        • Yvette says:

          Louise, I’m posting a link to a short video from a global alliance for rights of mother nature. In 2010 there was a gathering in international gathering in Ecuador to find ways to protect the rights of nature.

          I remember you posted on TWN the legal work you had done for the rights of wildlife. I believe with Jon Way?

          The video is titled, “The Story of the Global Alliance for the Rights of Nature and Ethics Tribunal”.

  59. Ida Lupines says:

    “The season is not necessarily closed when it gets to 150 wolves,” MacFarland said. “We are watching the season closely and taking everything into consideration, but the final word comes from the secretary’s (Stepp’s) office.”

    Um, yes, it usually does. Apparently it is more important to indulge hound hunters than to stick to the quota that scientists arrived at. Nobody had better ever use the word ‘science’ in connection with this debacle and expect to be taken seriously – ‘management’ of wolves has become a sick joke. We’ve now gone into legalized poaching. Collars that have stopped working have been attributed to everything but poachers – not a word of that mentioned at all. We’re tired of having our intelligence insulted.

    Apparently, the high school graduate/former real estate agent (don’t we have too many real estate agents anyway?) knows more about the matter than the DNR’s Large Canine Lapdog Biologist.

    a href=””>Wisconsin Wolf Kill: Will It Exceed Quota?

    • Ida Lupines says:

      Wisconsin Wolf Kill: Will It Exceed Quota?

      Sorry, here’s the link. I wish some of these underlings reporting to incompetents would have the stones to tell them ‘take this job and shove it’.

    • rork says:

      As of today, it’s 11 below quota for zone 3, 6 for zone 6, a few less than the article says. 146 now tagged (not intended as a euphemism, just shorthand jargon for legally killed and recovered).
      The article actually did mention poaching being one way to loose track of collars (“illegal harvest” they called it, which is terrible jargon, harvest being synonymous with tagged near me – it implies legal, and that remains were recovered and well used, which “shot” or “killed” do not necessarily imply).
      Legalized poaching is an oxymoron.

      • Ida Lupines says:

        Legalized poaching is an oxymoron.

        That it may be, but it is a very apt description of what is going on at the moment.

        They gave ‘illegal harvest’ about the same weight as the batteries running out on the collar! Which implies a very slim possibility to me. Oxymorons indeed.

      • rork says:

        Maybe I better add I never say “harvest”, not only cause of euphemism, but also emphasis on animals being like a crop that you create via management – though that is true, and even St. Aldo emphasizes that (in Game Management, not that other book) and it is a reason game managers like the term – it is self-congratulatory, often pretentious (my deer meat is thanks largely to mismanagement). My non-hunting friends sometimes ask me if I’ve “caught” any, but it’s not their fault.

        • Ida Lupines says:

          Yes, I agree!

          But this ‘when is a quota not really a quota’ stuff is really pushing the envelope.

  60. Louise Kane says:

    wolves killing all our sheep
    remove them

    bottle feeding the baby lamb a nice touch
    how long before they slit its throat et faire un bon ragoût d’agneau?

    • Peter Kiermeir says:

      The Reuters article is wrong in a few aspects. Most important one: Wolves have not been “reintroduced in France under an international convention on wildlife conservation”. Guess, they mean the Berne Convention, but this has nothing to do with reintroduction of wolves. They came up from the Italian Population via Switzerland

  61. Louise Kane says:

    wolf howling caught in video by wildlife photographer

    Immer, I thought of your posts about seeing and hearing wolves with a stab of jealousy. I hope yours survive this year’s slaughter.

    • Barb Rupers says:

      One year in the 1970s Natural History gave out a 33.3 record with their subscription, rather than calendars, one side was narrated by Robert Redford about wolves, the flip side was wolves howling. It has always been a favorite of mine – I also had a border collie that would come to the porch and howl with the record.

    • Immer Treue says:

      Thank you. I wish I could share the shear beauty and true magnitude of a wolf pack howling. Recordings don’t really give the “sound” justice. The air literally vibrates.

      Odd that some find beauty and joy in wolf song, while others find fear and loathing. The glass is either half full, or half empty, eh?

  62. Louise Kane says:

    Jon Stewart on Chris Christie exemplifying corrupt governmnet influenced by money

    93% of his constituency voted against pig gestation crates he vetoed law

    Iowa farmers lobbied against law

    sorry not wildlife but similar outcomes for wildlife because of corruption

  63. aves says:

    An endangered bird was shot and killed in Afghanistan because people thought it’s tracking device was a bomb:

  64. Louise Kane says:

    a reminder from Alaska Wildlife Alliance deadline to provide comments in support of some restrictive carnivore hunting practices in parts of the park. Wishing they would outright ban but its taken them 10 years to get this on the table working against the Alaska state wildlife agency and their zeal for killing carnivores

  65. Louise Kane says:

    one of the best commentaries I have ever read on the need for wildlife management reform on the state level. You could plug in any state name and the issues and problems are the same.


November 2014


‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."

~ Edward Abbey

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